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Endinburgh Council
 
 
Saturday, 7th November 2009 Change Date

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1

Genuine Guy,

24/02/2009 11:53:20
Hey Everybody

This morning I was walking down Princes Street and somehow I really liked the look of it. Barriers up, everything in readiness… A kind of "calm before the storm" mood, you know?

And it made me feel that maybe this trams business isn't going to be so bad as some people are thinking.

After all, those guys at BSC and TIE are all responsible adults, so they ought to be able to sort out the current spot of bother in a very short space of time.

And then - whoosh! It'll be full steam ahead, and before you know it the first track will be laid, and everyone may start to feel a whole lot better about things.

And who knows? Edinburgh could end up really and truly liking its trams and being glad they came along.

Wouldn't that be better than defeat and disappointment?

Just a thought for the day, to coin a phrase. Maybe just to change one or two people's minds a little. Chill out guys - we're still on track!
2

allknowing,

24/02/2009 11:56:46
So it seems TIE are to fully blame for this, theres a surprise. Tie tells lies, always have and will.

Although, i note the traffic flow on lothian road far better now with the new diversions.
3

JulesF,

Kirkliston 24/02/2009 11:57:18
#1

Meanwhile, back in the real world, congestion, chaos, cash and the Council !
4

The Judge,

24/02/2009 11:59:14
I've spotted the TIE employee(#1)and I claim my five pounds!

Has Councillor Wheeler stood down yet? Remember "To the best of my knowledge the trams are on time & on budget". Well Phil you've been caught out, do the honourable thing and resign before you're kicked out.

Steve "do you know who I am" Cardownie can go too, The SNP Group smells blood and fancy a change of leader before the next election.
5

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:02:43
Dear, Oh dear - 8 months delay here, 70 weeks AND 16 months reported in this morning's Hootsman. Can the Ace NewsHound Truth-Sleuths at Jonston Press not even talk to each other and get their stories straight?
Does that mean the bumbling amateurs at TIE will have to replace all these stupid 'Taking you tae the Shoaps in 2011' Signs, all at further expense?
6

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 24/02/2009 12:04:16
To finish this project the final sum is going to be really frightening,and we will pay for it.
7

Amenemhat,

24/02/2009 12:04:38
Bad analogy

"How would you react if you accepted an electrician's quotation of £5000 to rewire your house and they arranged to turn up next Monday, then you get a phone call on the Sunday evening saying, "By the way, it'll be £7000 and we'll start in a month"? You wouldn't say "Thank you very much". "

More like having the electrician standing about for a month waiting for the builder to finish the roof and not paying for his time

8

Leila,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:05:13
It's hard to believe that on top of cancelling the Cavalcade, and probably the Festival Fireworks concert, for the tramworks, they are now seriously considering cancelling the Hogmanay event too, and presumably also the Christmas events in the Gardens and the German Market?
9

charliegreen,

edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:06:02
Whats this am reading, no another problem, well seems like theres a new one nearly every other day,and 2 years to go, how many more i wonder. Time to scrap it now and put what money is left to better use.
10

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:07:30
I reckon we will break the all time record for posts on this one.

Anybody like to guess how many?
11

Genuine Guy,

24/02/2009 12:09:02
Another thought...

Think what it was like when the original Edinburgh tramlines were being laid, way back when in the past. Do you expect it all went smoothly the first time? I doubt it.

And human nature doesn't change, so there were probably some angry people around, and not a few doom and gloom merchants, claiming it would never work.

But you only have to look at the old photos to see how everyone got used to the trams and took a real pride in them. Couldn't that happen again?

My bet is, yes it can! So let's keep our nerve right now.
12

cathym,

24/02/2009 12:13:05
scrap the lot, before just like that billion pound shambles of a parliament, the tax payer gets taken to the cleaners again ,this tram system was NEVER going to work even if it is on time, its just a tourist gimmick, which is 500million and rising plus 7m to run each ie maintenance, wages etc, so even if its only £2 a go that means 3 .5 million passengers each year, plus the jerries are holding us to ransom just like parliament because they know , no matter what ,the pro tram group will force it through , because they wont admit its a giant white elephant
13

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 24/02/2009 12:13:39
What hysterical guff - every big project has problems like this , it;s a bug fuss about nothing . Let the taxpayers foot the bill I say , they will the ones who will benefit in the long run .
14

Way Out West,

24/02/2009 12:15:10
Nigel Griffiths: "We have one of the best bus services in the UK."

Not for much longer, he won't - these services are being decimated to help pay for the trams.

And as for the trams replacing the 22 bus route, this is just a fallacy. They may replace the 22, but other bus routes running parallel to parts of the tram line will also go as the council do not want buses running alongside the trams.

The tram line WILL be built - but at what cost?
15

cathym,

24/02/2009 12:15:21
plus unreal guy, in those days there were very few cars or buses and will leave there car at home to take a tram
16

Leila,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:16:06
#11: Are you serious? Way back then, trams were the only public transport around (unless you want to include the horse-and-cart variety).

Moving on a hundred years, we already have an excellent, well-used and popular public transport system for getting around Edinburgh - it's called buses.
17

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:18:00
Most engineers will be familiar with the term MESS, (Multiple Equipment Supplier Syndrome) which long predates but accurately describes the tram situation.
For those of you who are not yet familiar with the term it relates to a customer who has some knowledge of what he wants and tries to get the cheapest solution by buying bits of equipment from the various sources and connecting them together.
Usually the customer lacks basic knowledge and an engineering background and finds that when all the bits are eventually connected it doesn't work and he has no idea how to rectify the situation.
He then tries to get all or any of the suppliers to fix the problem. This can result in as many solutions as there are suppliers, each one advocating the use of that suppliers equipment, staff and expertise and of course that comes with an additional cost.
We are just at the start of this process now and it will be interesting to see who was supposed to be coordinating the various stages of the contract to ensure that he trams appeared on time and on budget.
We have seen the mock up on Princes St, wonder if we will eventually be able to visit the real trams, delivered on time and budget, sitting rusting in Leith Docks waiting for the lines to run on.
18

Genuine Guy,

24/02/2009 12:19:30
Just yesterday and today I've been thinking about confidence. You know, the difference it can make - and not just when you're out on the pull!

Look at it this way…

When people feel confident about a project, isn't that project more likely to succeed?

Won't the trams project move on by leaps and bounds when more Edinburgh folk feel confident about it?

And you only have to visit www.tiedinburgh.co.uk to see that Transport Initiatives Edinburgh is the kind of agency that inspires confidence. I've talked to several friends who've worked there and they all say the same thing. TIE makes you feel like you can do anything.

Isn't that the kind of agency we want in charge of this momentous scheme?

Sounds to me like we're very lucky to have TIE at the helm. So why don't we trust them and show some confidence of our own?
19

James (1),

24/02/2009 12:22:08
#11 I am with you. Let's ignore the additional millions we will have to pay. In fact let's double the salary for everyone involved in this project. We can also give them two days off, no make it three days off a week. If they feel like doing a bit work them we let them. If they don't then that is ok with us as well.
Years ago when the first tram line went in (mmm, why did they take it out if it was soooooo successful?)there was just the same amount of cars on the road and so the disruption would have been exactly the same.
Now there is another patient wanting to use this computer (wonder if it's Genuine Guy?) so got to go.
20

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:23:21
Could go "as much as £200m" over budget?!

Only a week or two ago we were being told this project was time and on budget.

If anyone hands their resignation from TIE and/or the Council, I hope it is not accepted. It seems to me there has been some serious "strategic misrepresentation" going on here.

21

Mik Wilso,

Uphall 24/02/2009 12:23:49
Well somebody has got it right. http://www.tinyurl.com/tramfiasco
22

cathym,

24/02/2009 12:24:31
who
23

JulesF,

Kirkliston 24/02/2009 12:25:04
# Keep taking the tablets, perhaps a lie down would help ?
24

Foo,

24/02/2009 12:26:44
Repost

If Edinburgh is against trams then it just goes to prove the suspicion most other countries have of us: That we're a depressingly small minded nation that is utterly incapable of progress or anything approaching forward thinking.

For all of you against trams; not one of you have presented anything like a decent alternative. Most of you seem to believe clogging the roads up with more buses is some sort of a solution. There's even a sizable portion that believe climate change is a myth and as such pollution prevention is not required. The worst part is that anyone who supports the trams is denounced as an idiot, with verbal insults and personal abuse rampant. That isn't debate - it's one section of society forcing its view on another.

I guess it's just another symptom of the deep and bitter attitude most people in Scotland have. Change is something to be ridiculed and feared. People who hold a different view must be branded and silenced. Fear of foreigners, fear of change, fear of catholics, fear of protestants, drinking away the change, stuffing junk food into your face because the alternative is just too much hard work.

The rest of the world think we're a joke.
25

Foo,

24/02/2009 12:27:02
Unlike buses, but like trolleybuses, (electric) trams give off no exhaust emissions at point of use. Compared to motorbuses the noise of trams is generally perceived to be less disturbing.

Trams can adapt to the number of passengers by adding additional cars during rush hour (and removing them during off-peak hours). No additional driver is then required for the trip in comparison to buses.

In general, trams provide a higher capacity service than buses.

Rights-of-way for trams are narrower than for buses. This saves valuable space in cities with high population densities and/or narrow streets.

Because they are rail-bound, trams command more respect from other road users than buses do, when operating on-road. In heavy traffic conditions, rogue drivers are less likely to hold up trams, for example by blocking intersections or parking on the road. This often leads to fewer delays. As a rule, especially in European cities and Melbourne, trams always have priority.

Multiple entrances allow trams to load faster than suburban coaches, which tend to have a single entrance. This, combined with swifter acceleration and braking, lets trams maintain higher overall speeds than buses, if congestion allows.

Trams can trackshare with mainline railways, servicing smaller towns with without requiring special track as in Stadtbahn Karlsruhe.

Passenger comfort is normally superior to buses because of controlled acceleration and braking and curve easement. Rail transport such as used by trams provides a smoother ride than road use by buses.

In most countries, trams do not suffer from the image problem that plagues buses. On the contrary, most people associate trams with a positive image. Unlike buses, trams tend to be popular with a wider spectrum of the public, including people of high income who often shun buses. This high level of customer acceptance means higher patronage and greater public support for investment in new tram infrastructure.
26

Foo,

24/02/2009 12:27:14
Because the tracks are visible, it is easy for potential riders to know where the routes are.

Vehicles run more efficiently and overall operating costs are lower.

Trams can run on renewable electricity without the need for very expensive and short life batteries

Consistent market research and experience over the last 50 years in Europe and North America shows that car commuters are willing to transfer some trips to rail-based public transport but not to buses. Typically light rail systems attract between 30 and 40% of their patronage from former car trips. Rapid transit bus systems attract less than 5% of trips from cars, less than the variability of traffic.
27

James (1),

24/02/2009 12:28:56
#18 I was you using the computer! Do you want to go for coffee after the psychiatrist sees you?
Again your logic is spot on! You said "When people feel confident about a project, isn't that project more likely to succeed?"
Well on that note I have a piece of coal under my pillow and I am confident it will turn into a diamond quite soon. Well let's say before the tram line is up and running.
These people who have said from the beginning that this was a flawed project never going to come in anywhere near on budget were just not confident were they?
28

Sir AIbert x2,

24/02/2009 12:29:33
#23 What about a tie down?
29

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 24/02/2009 12:30:32
24 - is;nt the real reason that folk only care about their own pockets ? Selfish taxpayers .
30

Sir AIbert x2,

24/02/2009 12:31:23
#24, 25, 26

I'm sure we can find this information if we want it. No need for you to copy & paste.
31

Steven P,

edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:31:27
At least we now know why Gallagher resigned.
32

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:33:10
Such warnings were ignored when the SNP Government vetted the plans and when Edinburgh's LibDem/SNP administration signed the contracts.

Nice rewriting of history, Nige! Typical lies from NuLiebour. Wasn't it the SNP Government that proposed to cancel the project and the NuLiebour Party that ganged up with its LibDumb lapdogs and the Tories to push the project through?
33

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:33:24
'The tram project has an overall funding pot of £545m, of which £96m is regarded as a "contingency" reserve' -Yet more inconsistency from the EEN - only on Saturday it was reported that the 'contingency' had shrunk to £15M, which was a 'bargaining chip'- Well, that'll scare the hell out of Bilfinger Berger!
34

Skip McClendon,

24/02/2009 12:36:09
On time and in budget? What a joke.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The final bill for this fiasco will be in the region of £1Billion.

But, even if you take the £200M overspend figure at face value, where are the Council going to get that money from? The tooth fairy?

The Tramline is dead, it's just that the Council and Tie won't admit it yet.
35

Euphemia Groynes of that Ilk,

24/02/2009 12:38:38
#25

How well I recall Stadtbahn Karlsruhe as it was in the days of my girlhood, so long ago now, alas!
36

Big bob 79,

24/02/2009 12:39:12
ON TIME AND ON BUDGET

a few tram huggers belived this, to the rest of us this proves us to be correct, this comes as no surprise what so ever
37

Gordon Combe,

24/02/2009 12:39:55
#24, 25 and 26

Actually mate, I agree with every word you say in these postings. Many people, including a lot of the politicians quoted above, are blinkered.

I have visited countries with trams and travelled on them. They are faster, cleaner and just make the city a whole lot better place where the car / bus is secondary. Some countries, where there was initial opposition, are now demanding more tram lines in the city, such is their success.

And it the end of a day, its a fraction of the cost of saving an incompetent private sector bank, so lets get it done and stop the moaning!!!!!
38

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:40:39
#31, ABSOLUTELY, and also looking forward to the resignations of Phil 'Father Jack' Wheeler and Old Uncle Tom Aitchison, for that ridiculous piece of guff in the Scotsman on 31 January. Both these chancers have peddled the fiction that this monstrosity was 'On Time and On Budget', well knowing they were spouting a pack of lies.
39

pongo2009,

24/02/2009 12:41:42
OK, here's my plan. Terminate the line at Haymarket. Switch to Airlink buses at Haymarket, yes I know that's what we do now so not "world class" city progress.

Sorry, the depot's where.....?

Err.... anybody know what happenned to the Leith tram sheds?

Terminating at the airport car park will make us a laughing stock.

Yesterday I visted the mock-up. Hung around but the clip-boarders were just chatting to each other. Main comment, I though the seats were very narrow, but plenty of standing space.
40

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 24/02/2009 12:42:16
34 - £1 billion - this must be the post of the year . What hysterical rubbish . Look at the reaction of people visiting the mock up , there is genuine goodwill towards this project . the only oppostion comes from a small clique here who have concern only for their own pockets .
41

malcyh,

24/02/2009 12:44:01
lets see if the Council has some backbone and stands firm! Also no great loss to us if the Hogmanay nonsense is scrapped. How much does it cost the council tax payers anyway?
42

John Knox furr First Meenister,

High St, Embra 24/02/2009 12:45:54
Griffiths! Quote:
"Such warnings were ignored when the SNP Government vetted the plans and when Edinburgh's LibDem/SNP administration signed the contracts."
Err umm.. wasn't the motion is parliament in the name of one Wendy Alexander? And I thought Labour supported it!

43

Skip McClendon,

24/02/2009 12:46:38
#40

£200M overspend on a £550M project is £750M. And that's before you factor in the increases that are still to come because of the delays to work on Princes street.

So, the project is ALREADY only £250M away from costing a Billion. Given that the project is already late and over-budget without a single inch of track being laid, I hardly think it is "hysterical" to believe that the final budget will increase to the £1Billion range.
44

pongo2009,

24/02/2009 12:46:39
and my other comment/question I would have asked had the clip-boarders not been so preoccupied with themselves "when/if the trams ever run in Princes Street do all the diverted bus services listed on the poster return?"
45

Foo,

24/02/2009 12:47:47
Can anyone answer this; given that trams can run on any rail track, and given that Edinburgh has an existing circular rail network, what's to stop this being intergrated into the tram route at a later date?

46

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:50:35
Foo (45) - I don't believe that trams can run on any rail track. I think what you are talking about are tram-trains but I don't believe that TIE have ordered tram-trains. Mind you, they changed the spec for the tram vehicles so many times too, that it is hard to keep up.
47

Sir AIbert x2,

24/02/2009 12:51:27
#45 How do you know it hasn't been discussed?
48

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 24/02/2009 12:53:10
Foo, your to late mate TIE have already handed out all the non jobs (including brown enevlopes)to people with a higher public profile than you to get them to promote the trams.

Also your no 24 post is a full of holes (like Edinburgh streets at the moment)you are basicly the pot calling the kettle black. Just because people have a view on the trams doesnt automaticly mean they are short sited narrow minded homophobis bigoted idiots. You rant in 25 and 26 post for the trams but in post 24 you rant against people who are against the trams. You only want to hear from people who agree with you. Just becuase you give one sided pro tram data doesnt actually mean you are correct either.
49

Boswall,

24/02/2009 12:53:59
Foo

The only person here that's complaining about the rest of the world seeing Scotland as a joke is you. Furthermore, considering how blinkered your viewpoint is you'll forgive everyone else here for not taking your word for it.

The cost of this project is staggering when compared to the relatively narrow section of the population who will benefit from it.

At least at the end of the Hollyrood fiasco we ended up with a building that served the entire population of Scotland. At the conclusion of the Tram fiasco we'll have a few thousand people who live near the line(s) benefitting and stuff the rest of the city.
50

Bob 2,

24/02/2009 12:55:07
Graham Birse

How would you react if you accepted an electrician's quotation of £5000 to rewire your house and they arranged to turn up next Monday, then you get a phone call on the Sunday evening saying, "By the way, it'll be £7000 and we'll start in a month"? You wouldn't say "Thank you very much".

hold on Mr Birse, most people have a detailed plan, and have a project manager who would timetable workmen in.

But the tram timetable has clearly failed to take into consideration, the complex works of moving utilities and not built in a sensisble time between the utitilies finished and the tram lines getting laid.


as someoone else has commented,

imagine a plaster arriving at a new build house, to plaster a wall,

"weres the wall?",...."mm well it ain't finished yet"

would you be happy, "could you come back next week,
it may be finsihed", pay you for your mistake, certainly not
51

DonaldK,

Brussels 24/02/2009 12:55:13
Usual un-informed nonsense from Graham Birse:

"How would you react if you accepted an electrician's quotation of £5000 to rewire your house and they arranged to turn up next Monday, then you get a phone call on the Sunday evening saying, "By the way, it'll be £7000 and we'll start in a month"?"

The reality here is the electrician quoted a fixed price then while he was away you (TIE) built another 3 floors on your house, had a preservation order slapped on the basement and then stipulated you were going to spend 8 months repainting it before he could start.

It's quite clear the contractor is facing a project in a completely different state than the one stipulated in the conditions they signed on to, so it should be relatively easy for them to press their case for more money (if the government is foolish enough to find any for them that is).

I'm not sure how many TIE staff have already moved on to other employment opportunities - at least one highly placed individual left pretty sharpish last year. For those that are left it might be smart for them to consider a swift exit stage left to avoid having the dreaded 'Holyrood on Wheels' on their CVs for the rest of their lives.
52

Big bob 79,

24/02/2009 12:56:17
#45
Hi Foo, it would be great to join the tram with rail lines. But this cannot happen as its not compatible with railway signalling and the tram has no AWS fitted. Also the Voltage is tottaly different no to mention platform hieghts. Even the carriages are not strong enough to meet railway specs, I am sure someone in Europe would also have kittens



53

,

24/02/2009 12:56:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
54

Bob 2,

24/02/2009 12:57:09
the evening news of course is adding a bit to the story to seel newspapers
55

Leila,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 12:58:21
#40: "Look at the reaction of people visiting the mock up, there is genuine goodwill towards this project."

Says who? I visited the tram yesterday. Although there were TIE staff around, no one was measuring the reactions of the public. There were no feedback forms available, TIE staff weren't even asking people what they thought of it. And I noticed a lot of pensioners there - they'll be disappointed when they find they probably won't be able to use their concessionary travel passes on trams.

It's a fact that the tram project is months behind schedule. It's a fact that it's going to cost more more than was budgeted for. It's a fact that the project won't get a penny more from the Scottish Government, so any overspend will have to come from Edinburgh Council who haven't banked anything like enough to pay even their original share.

I'm not willing to see other budgets cut, and I'm not paying a penny more in council tax towards this unnecessary, unwanted, waste of money project.
56

Sir AIbert x2,

24/02/2009 12:59:47
#52 Ignore Foo, you're wasting your time.

I tell him daily how green/naive his comments are, but he still thinks he's Einstein. Let him fantasise!!
57

Bob 2,

24/02/2009 13:00:39
And David McLetchie, Tory MSP for Edinburgh Pentlands, added: "This trams saga is bearing all the hallmarks of the fiasco we had over the Scottish Parliament building.

well who voted the Trams through

the parliament building was the same, MSPs making and changing the design as they went along. the true cost will never be known.

the common denominator - people without the proper exerience managing (or not as the case may be)managing a large project
58

Foo,

24/02/2009 13:02:09
#52 - Yes, but on the other hand it would open up a very large network. Can the existing infrastructure not be converted? This would be a lot cheaper than building a whole new network.

59

Big bob 79,

24/02/2009 13:07:25
Hi Foo, it would be faster and cheaper just to run trains on railways. Be-careful or you will have all the train nuts chasing you about opening up old rail lines.
60

Wingman,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 13:08:37
1#,11#,18#. Yes, Yes , Fully agree, you are 100% correct, of course the rest are all wrong, Now be a good boy and return to your bed, its against hospital policy to allow patients to use the computers. If your a good boy and take your medicine though i,ll let you have a shot again tommorrow. Dr Bob.
61

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 13:09:41
#40 Voice of reason,

"The only oppostion comes from a small clique here who have concern only for their own pockets."

Voice, if you really believe (yourself and other trammies) that we are a small clique of fanatical anti-tram supporters, why do you bother to submit anything towards this project?

Obviously, you and they are now very concerned that your 'icons' are about to vanish.

From what I can make out there is every chance this thing will end up being £1 billion plus - if you think the Scottish Parly was bad, you ain't seen nothing.

As for trams being a 'green' option, surely that is very much dependent upon what fuel source is used to generate the electricity.

Initially. only 27 trams are to be purchased each with a capacity of approx 250 i.e. 6,750 passengers (if fully loaded), even doubling the number of compartments that still only gives a max of 13,500, hardly efficient and value for money.

Cancel this lunatic project now.



62

Bob 2,

24/02/2009 13:10:08
The street party will be interesting, given that the Tram Wires will be down the middle of Princes Street and it been the norm in the past to remove the shelters etc


Someone suggested adding extra ?carriages? to the 42m trams, only question How long is the platforms?
63

Bob 2,

24/02/2009 13:11:55
61 - presumably not all 27 trams will be out on the tracks at once, presume TIE have allowed for maintenance and breakdowns..surerly... hold on this is TIE
64

Big bob 79,

24/02/2009 13:17:28
#63
all 27 will be parked nose to tail and you simply get on and walk from carrige to carriage until you reach you destination, then you get off.. No chance for breakdown
65

Edinburgh Mum,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 13:17:32
hahahahahah over budget, possibly by £200 million. hahahahahaha told you so told you so told you so. Absolute eff ing joke, just like the Scottish Parliament (hey I bet those MP's will be wanting a there own private tram complete with 24 carat gold inerior and highly expensive commissioned art work). Everytime I hear anything about the Edinburgh tram project first word that springs to mind is JOKE!!!!!
66

capy,

embra 24/02/2009 13:17:48
Such warnings were ignored when the SNP Government vetted the plans and when Edinburgh's LibDem/SNP administration signed the contracts.


You could not make the above up.Labour LIES.Buck passing of the highest order.No wonder you are on your way out. Know doubt for your services to the cause you will receive a nice seat in the Lords.Complain about Post Office closures but vote for it when your safe in London.You are a disgrace
67

Sir AIbert x2,

24/02/2009 13:18:10
#58 Foo

Did you read what was posted at #52 or do you like asking silly questions?
68

The Judge,

24/02/2009 13:18:15
Foo/Gorgie Tony

I'll take the bait. Where's the money coming from to build this mystical "network"?

TIE/ECC have blown millions on a single line without so much as an inch of track laid, they are already months behind and we can all agree the project is millions over budget.

Would you trust TIE/ECC to build a network even if they could raise the money?

Has Councillor Wheeler resigned yet for misleading the city council?

69

Foo,

24/02/2009 13:22:16
#68 - I was simply suggesting that the existing circular network could be adapted for tram use a cheaper alternative.
70

The Judge,

24/02/2009 13:25:35
So I will ask you again foo/gorgie tony, where is the money coming from?

Leaving aside the small fact that the tram cars cannot run on rail lines.

Like all protrammies you think the city council has a money tree stashed away somewhere.

Has Councillor Wheeler resigned yet?
71

Billy Bob Jnr,

24/02/2009 13:27:14
#69
Sorry Foo, it's illegal to run light rail and heavy rail on the same tracks in the UK. Too many safety issues.
72

JulesF,

Kirkliston 24/02/2009 13:31:39
Could a new School be built on a budget of £200 million ?
You could certainly do a lot of refurbishment to the existing ones for that amount of money.
The council and Tie are a disgraceful shambolic mess !
73

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 13:31:41
Foo (69) - speaking for myself, it would take the demise of TIE and the resignation of several key councillors and council officials before I would begin to have any trust or confidence in any future transport proposals they might suggest.

74

Ron S,

Stockbridge 24/02/2009 13:33:11
I visited the mock-up this morning. It opened at 11.15, fifteen minutes later than the stated time.
The mock-up, into which you can walk, is actually two fifths of the length of the real tram. I suspect many people did not realise this. Internally it's much like any modern European tram, possibly a bit narrow internally, but it seemed perfectly adequate. A chap in a wheel-chair arrived while I was there and was quite pleased with the layout and access. Clearly Tie did not do that bit of the design. Outside there were the ubiquitous signage boards telling you how wonderful everything is going to be. I noted that as well as creating 1000 temporary construction jobs (not today in Princes Street) the tram will also generate 1000 permanent jobs. There are only 27 trams in total so what on earth are they all going to be doing?
75

PaulB,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 13:36:04
Has anyone else noticed, the traffic is running far more smoothly since the diversions were put in place. The Council should leave them permanently - no buses queuing up for miles along Princes Street. And I agree with genuine guy - the trams will make a huge difference to Edinburgh once they are up and running - people just need a bit of confidence - it makes all the difference. And Foo - you are right that to many outsiders Edinburghers must seem like a bunch of moaning gits!
76

PaulB,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 13:37:59
#74 Ron - why did you not ask the staff on duty at the tram? Sure they could have told you. And obviously the real trams are going to be longer - would not be much point in having them the size on display, they would not hold many passengers:)
77

Jingsitsme,

EDINBURGH 24/02/2009 13:38:42
What a fiasco - time to admit defeat and abandon project as they would only ask for more money later.

These people don't realise with their ideas etc that Edinburgh is unique in that it has immovable 'objects' around the city - ie. - the castle, the braids etc and one has to cope with that in any project.

If money was spent providing good roads, buses or even taking a railway line to near the airport with an airport link that may work.

It better be quick getting Edinburgh shambles settled as once people find somewhere else to go they wont' necessarily come back!!


78

Foo,

24/02/2009 13:38:43
#70 & #71 - I understand there are issues regarding funding and safety, however surely these are factors that can be influenced relatively easily in comparison with, say, building line 1b?

Judge, I believe that you may just be so against the whole concept of change you aren't capable of finding a compromise. Or am I wrong?

The tram system is without doubt going ahead. Given that; wouldn't you at least like to make the best of it? Surely converting heavy use rail for our tram system would be a relatively cost effective solution that would bring a massive network to the people of Edinburgh. And tram cars can run on rail network. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe
under the transport section.

By the way, I'm not gorgie tony, judge.
79

The Judge,

24/02/2009 13:39:56
#75 Where you think the £200m(if its as low as that)should come from, a hike in council tax or cuts to the existing budget?

This has got nothing to do with "confidence" and everything to do with lies & mismanagement.

Do you realise the South Sub could have been up and running today with the money TIE/ECC has spent on PR alone?
80

The Judge,

24/02/2009 13:44:20
Foo I am pro tram but this was the wrong line in the wrong place run by the wrong people from day one.

It's time to cut our loses and scrap line one, the trams and other infrastructure could be stored until we've raised enough money to develop either line three or a new line out to the airport from Haymarket train station.

In the meantime reopen the South Sub and get people used to that before moving on.

Ok I believe your not GT, millions wouldn't
81

Statsman,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 13:48:00
A complete shambles and no one has resigned. 'Congestion' charging vote. Same thing. CETMS. Same thing.

Every transport scheme in Edinburgh seems to be a shambles and no one ever has to take responsibility.

It would be cheaper to employ people to throw bank notes into an incinerator and cut out the middle man.
82

Big bob 79,

24/02/2009 13:48:52
# 74
the extra people will be out the back pushing!....
83

Ron S,

Stockbridge 24/02/2009 13:54:11
#82 BigBob
Yes, 1000/27 = 37 people per tram! Think of the polution that would save.
84

Ron S,

Stockbridge 24/02/2009 13:55:40
And you wouldn't need the wires either. Hey, we are on to something here! Maybe it won't cost £1bn after all.
85

Hmm ...,

24/02/2009 13:59:36
... Paul B (75) is an obvious plant - the plan is that these restrictions WILL be permanent - figures released back in 2005 show changes in traffic flow after the trams come on line, so to speak, matching reductions and increases we are now seeing as "temporary" restrictions.

I like the support for "Genuine Guy's blatant "we only need confidence" line - as though the massive overspend, the lack of funding for that overspend, the inadequate routing of the trams in the first place and the failure to develop the Waterfront, which was the original motivation for the trams, has absolutely nothing to do with making them available for us.

Only an idiot or tie employee (or both) desperate to keep his job at tie any price would peddle such blatant tripe at a time when the decision should be faced that this project has hit the buffers.
86

NorT,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 14:08:36
A lot of ordinary but knowledgeable citizens and people have said right from the start that the budget was way too small and thatthere would be problems with the utilities. How right they have been proved. Lets cut our losses, accept the utility work and go no further.
Typical of this stubborn council not to want to take the diversions off. They would have to admit defeat if they did that.
Also must be an election coming up with Nigel griffiths trying to defend his 400 majority. Not a chance. he will hopefully join the ranks of the unemployed soon.
87

Ron S,

Stockbridge 24/02/2009 14:09:00
#85 I thought PaulB sounded a bit Tie ish too.
As far as #18's confidence is concerned ie could not believe his line:
"TIE makes you feel like you can do anything."
So does the drink, but we do not let drunks run a railroad. Or maybe, just maybe, we did.

88

Parsons,

24/02/2009 14:14:09
Following the problems with the Scottish Parliament going over budget why was a fixed costs contract not agreed? The English FA signed one with the builders of the new Wembley stadium when that went over budget the cost was met by the contractors, not the English FA. It's worrying when sports administrators appear to have more sense than our elected officials.
89

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 14:15:31
#74, Ron S - I'm sure your chap in a wheel-chair would be quite pleased with the layout and access - that's a design characteristic of such vehicles. And I'm equally sure that if he's one of the 6% of Edinburgh's population who happen to live/work/socialise along the tramline he'll find it a boon to getting about. If, however, he's like the vast majority of us, he'll find it a damned sight less convenient to change up to 3 times to make a journey currently possible on a single bus service.
90

PaulB,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 14:24:31
God you lot are paranoid! For the record, I have nothing at all to do with Tie, any of the construction firms, the council or anything else to do with the tram construction project. I just happen to support the tram scheme and am completely fed up with the complete lies and half-truths put out by most posters on the sisite. No-one said it would be easy to build the new line - yes there are problems, but so much disruption has been caused and money spent, it would be a complete outrage if work stopped now with nothing to show for it. Please get a grip!
91

The Judge,

24/02/2009 14:30:29
PaulB at what point do we say enough is enough?

£100m over budget?
£200m?
£300m?

Anybody else get the feeling Tramcar Willie knew this was coming and deserted the sinking ship before he went down with the rest of them.


92

Ron S,

Stockbridge 24/02/2009 14:34:34
#89 Thomas
I agree with your 6% point, although CEC is working up to re-interpret the facts.
If you go to the City Development Planning Portal:
http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/publicaccess/tdc/tdc_home.aspx
and look under 'property search', then add a city adrress, you will find planning details of that particular property. CEC has added a tick box for every house: "Within 750m Of A Proposed Tram Line"
Who was the boss of City Development?
Who was promoting the trams?
93

Skip McClendon,

24/02/2009 14:39:39
What's really scary is that people are using the argument that, since we have already poured about £250M into this project with no results, then we should happily pour another £500M (at least) into it.

It's like a compulsive gambler chasing losses. "I've already lost my shirt, so now I need to bet a shirt I don't have to try to win my original shirt back".

I'm as outraged as anyone that we might have wasted a quarter of a billion quid so far on nothing, but that doesn't mean I want to rush to write a cheque for another half a billion (at least).

You can't throw good money after bad. Sometimes you have to cut your losses and say "enough is enough". And that time has arrived with this project.
94

Dragonlord,

24/02/2009 14:40:50
There were some of us on here, right at the start saying it would not be on budget or on time. We have been proved correct.However Tie and the Council handed out huge bonuses knowing full well the project was falling apart. Gallacher left for personal reasons? Aye right he left with his pockets bulging and a smile on his face.
Tie and the Council must now come out and make it clear there will be no more bonuses paid out, as the whole tram line is a farce.
95

James (1),

24/02/2009 14:42:52
#90 We are no where near completion of this tram line. We are however pouring good money down the drain by trying to keep it going. This "give us £80 million more" is the start of the spiral of cash to go down the drain.
The "plan" should have been for the contractor to give a REAL costing and them to agreed to carry any expense over this. The lesson should have been learnt from that overpriced building at the foot of the Royal Mile.
If businesses all worked that way we would have Tesco or Asda saying "fill your trolley with as much as you can for a £1" then waiting until you get to the checkout and saying "Thank you that will be £167 please".
96

Life of a Liberal?,

Outside Jenners 24/02/2009 14:55:12
# 94 - you are nearly 100% correct. Gallacher ran off to Kilmarnock knowing his next bonus would not be paid as he and Phil Wheeler and co. could no longer suppress the true condition of this project.

How much will the tram really cost? We need to know now. We ARE the tax payers. It is our money, not the CoEC or the Scottish Govt's.

The arguements for the tram are now - well chaps, stiff upper lip, its started, so let's finish it.
Can any employees of TIE or any CoE Councillors trace their lineage back to the officers leading the charge of the Light Brigade.

It is now about saving face and hoping all will work out in the end. This project is nearly, very nearly dead.
97

regentlad,

lothian 24/02/2009 14:55:46
39: Leith tram shed which housed 157 trams still in situ. This best placed to service the new line but Council ignored it in favour of new build at Gogar costing much more. In their 'wisdom' they thought about selling Leith to help pay for Gogar but they're now in another hole with the property downfall.
57: Mr McLetchie's Tories (and Labour, Lib Dems) voted for this tram project. Back in 1950 it was the Tories who voted to scrap Edinburgh's tram system consisting of 29 routes, 300 trams, 4 depots and miles of infrastructure. An absolute waste of civic assets.
Now best the Council abort this project before they bankrupt the city.
98

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 15:01:44
#92, Ron; obliged for that info. Sounds like City Development are getting desperate. It's a wonder they're not seeking a 'contribution' from all those residents so 'blessed'!
99

tumshie heid,

24/02/2009 15:03:48
#90 How do you know that what posters say here are complete lies or half truths? You also say that because we have spent so much money already we should spend at least double it again just so that we have our shiny trams. Mad.
Scrap the project now and be grateful that we have had all the pipework/cabling renovated across Edinburgh.
100

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 24/02/2009 15:05:17
90 Paulb,

"completely fed up with the complete lies and half-truths put out by most posters"

I think you should direct that comment atTIE and the Cooncil A lot of posters have questioned the dubious facts and figures especially the on time and on budget claim continually issued by TIE over a huge amount of press releases.

The basic fact are that so far TIE have failed to design, plan and manage the project correctly, Edinburgh Cooncil also have a large part to play in what has happened. Its alright having fancy PR machines constantly issuing statements that everything is ok "on time and on budget" when even the ardent tram supporter with an open mind could see that the figures just didnt add up. the old saying that if it looks to good to be true then there must be something wrong with it comes to mind.

The public have no confidence in the tram project and that started from even before the first hole was dug. Why simple it seemed to good to be true (manufactured one sided figures on cost and benefits etc).
101

dullard,

dullsville 24/02/2009 15:05:43
Turned out nice though eh?
102

Just a tax payer,

EDINBURGH 24/02/2009 15:18:48
This is A GOLDEN opportunity for the SNP to SCRAP this Monstruous and costly project. Please fulfill your pledge: NO TRAMS. CEC has already wasted millions of taxpayers money. This project is becoming another Holyrood on "WHEELS". SCRAP IT NOW.
103

Black Five,

edinburgh 24/02/2009 15:23:12
There`s been so much said about this trams it`s time the News stopped comments on it.The Evening News should take a lead and campaign for the wishes of the people that this fiasco has went on long enough and should be scrapped now.
104

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 15:38:07
#92 Ron S,

"CEC has added a tick box for every house: "Within 750m Of A Proposed Tram Line""

#98 Thomas the Tank,

"It's a wonder they're not seeking a 'contribution' from all those residents so 'blessed'!"

You can safely bet your bottom dollar that any domestic properties within 1 km of this folly will have their Council Tax shoved up by at least a couple of bands for the priviledge of being within close proximity to the new age 'Iron Horse'.

After all, any developers within reasonable distances of the tram lines were being expected to make a 'healthy' contribution to the cost of construction. Surely putting up the Council Tax on nearby domestic properties must be a very attractive option for the Town Hall buccaneers.

105

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 15:49:42
SCRAP THE TRAMS NOW!
106

Rockgod52,

Liberton 24/02/2009 15:52:56
Enough of this utter nonsense. Scrap it now, put some money into the already good bus system and bring in the congestion charge which should have been pushed through in the first place. Then divert the rest of the budget to the hundreds of voluntary groups staring oblivion in the face because of funding cuts. Time to get the bloody priorities right
107

Ron S,

Within 750m of a proposed tram line 24/02/2009 16:03:20
Peter #104
Oh no! Much better to spread the over-run over all Council Tax payers. After all, CEC says they all will benefit from the tram.
Lets see how much an overspend will cost the average CT payer. Not a penny more, of course, from those people in Hollyrood who are so careful with our money.

According to CEC there are 195,000 'Band D equivalent' CT payers, so a £200M over-run would mean an extra charge of over one thousand pounds to each and every average CT payer. Two thousand if you live in a Band H house.
Each house. Think about it. Can we afford this?

108

Realist,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 16:05:55
Some interesting facts:

1) 140 ft long - 4 times the length of a double deck bus but only same number of seats! So we will all have to stand - thats really going to attract people out of cars!

2) Only 3 stops on leith walk to replace lots of bus stops (7 I think) - so we all have to walk further to get on, so why not walk all the way into town and save £2

3) The demand forcast for edinburgh was done by the same advisors who did the Metro in Sunderland - they overstated demand there by 100% to suit the business case, what is the betting the same applies here

4) Many commercially operated bus services in Sunderland, were withdrawn following the introduction of Metro and had to be subsidised by the council as many were in areas not served by Metro.

5) Following the hopelessly inaccurate demand forcasts and despite the decimation of the bus network the frequency of trams on the Sunderland - Doxford line was reduced to 3 trains an hour from 5 trains an hour,

6) Buses saved on Princes Street - 2 per hour in each direction according to the business case (well it will be more in time when lothian withdraw the rest of the bus network)

We have so much to look forward to!

Lets stop this waste of money now and let Lothian Buses run the qulaity service we used to have which returned a tidy sum to the council each year rather then find ourselves as council tax payers paying millions in subsidies for both buses and trams that this city can so ill afford
109

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 24/02/2009 16:14:52
Yes . Vote Labour for a car free coty .
110

hibbyspurs,

24/02/2009 16:19:46
One Word..... "FARCE"

The city streets have been ripped up for months on end causing commuters no end of misery and now we're told the misery will continue well past the scheduled completion date and it's going to cost a whole lot more than originally anticipated......

JOy, joy, joy, the cooncil have always been eejits but this is just clowning of the highest order... Krusty the clown would be out of a job on The Simpsons if this lot were in Springfield..... Ironically enough I seem to remember an episode of said show where the town built a "monorail" which turned into a fiasco with the developr ripping of the town..... Such an amazing irony.
111

Propulsar,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 16:22:03
I can't believe the amount of negativity expressed in the comments about trams.
Having been to many other Eurpoean cities where they have been in service for years I can only think that they will be a great benefit. We may finally have a mass transit system that can approach, or better equivalent journey times by car within the city. Buses certainly are a much slower than the equivalent journey by car.
People that are calling for trams to scrapped do not seem to realise that by the time you add all the money spent to date with the cost of penalties that would be incurred by the council we would be left paying abiut the same money for nothing.
Nobody likes having the builders in but once they have finished they are usually pleased with the result.
We need to bear the pain for the long term gain.
112

Dragonlord,

24/02/2009 16:32:55
111 # I have been to Dublin many times, but have never been on their trams. Why? Because it didn't go where I wanted to go. The same applies here. The tram will not serve the majority of Edinburgh citezens. The only reason it was built, was because the Council promised the developers on the waterfront, that if they bought the land and built houses, they would supply a transport system. The houses were built, but they are not selling, so the huge numbers the council THOUGHT would use the tram have not materialised. The business case has collapsed along with the countries finances.
Why waste any more money on a toy train that will not do what it was supposed to do?
113

Ron S,

Within 750m of a proposed tram line 24/02/2009 16:33:21
#111
ie a tram at any cost.

NO
114

Dan.D.Nong,

24/02/2009 16:39:29
haa haa haa.....any one checked the tie management bonuses. that's where all the money is probably going; lining their own pockets.
115

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 16:40:01
#107 Ron S,

Ron, I'm sure that if this folly is allowed to continue, we (the humble Council Tax payers of PoserCity) will all end up paying richly for this 'privilege'.

However, if we all cast our minds back to the beginning of this charade, TIE/City Council swore blind that there would not be one penny of an increase in Council Tax to pay for the trams - let's just wait and see. I fear that the frightening figures you talk about are quite likely and will start to be drawn from the Council Tax in roughly 2 years time (unlees the project is scrapped).

#111 Propulsar

"the cost of penalties" What penalties? This project is supposed to be the subject of a 'fixed price' contract.

I wonder what would be the outcome of a referendum on the trams right now? Kicked into touch I wouldn't mind betting. Edinburgh should cut its losses at the money spent now before this monster amounts to £1 billion +.


116

Noodle doodle,

24/02/2009 16:41:22
#111..."We may finally have a mass transit system that can approach, or better equivalent journey times by car within the city. Buses certainly are a much slower than the equivalent journey by car."

how will they do that, will they have carte blanche to break the road speed limits only the emergency services currently have permission to exceed? Will they not stop for passengers?

The main problem people have with the tram line as envisaged is that it is neither fish nor fowl - not as extensive or as flexible as the buses, but not as fast as a train - it also seems to dither as to whether it's meant for edinburghers to use or just a fancy airport / redevelopment area link

For a fraction of this cost they should have set up a rail spur or diverted one of the lines that split either side of the airport and set up a rail station there and bought greener buses for the city.

So far it's just been a mess, it's kept a few planners, engineers and labourers in jobs but even then at the expense of the livelihoods and trade of people in the streets they've blighted
117

JT,

24/02/2009 16:47:00
Why cant the council just admit that they allowed this as punishment for not voting for congestion charges akin to London! From the start this has been a total waste of time and money but instead of moaning about it, why dont we get the idiots who passed this through no matter what party out at the next election. As for the trams themselves why should there be so many people standing? Its bad enough when on the buses especially during the rush hour,you take your life in your hands, so its going worse when you are on a tram.
118

Foo,

24/02/2009 16:53:04
#108

1) 140 ft long - 4 times the length of a double deck bus but only same number of seats! So we will all have to stand - thats really going to attract people out of cars!

Studies in Europe and NA have indeed that this will tempt people out of their cars. Also it is 4x less pollution and road space than 4 buses. That means more room for car drivers on the road.

2) Only 3 stops on leith walk to replace lots of bus stops (7 I think) - so we all have to walk further to get on, so why not walk all the way into town and save £2

Good, there's no need at all for 7 stops on Leith walk. I can walk the whole thing in 10 minutes.

3) The demand forcast for edinburgh was done by the same advisors who did the Metro in Sunderland - they overstated demand there by 100% to suit the business case, what is the betting the same applies here

This isn't a fact. This is a conspiracy theory.

4) Many commercially operated bus services in Sunderland, were withdrawn following the introduction of Metro and had to be subsidised by the council as many were in areas not served by Metro.

But all your tram mates say that no one will be on it because it doesn't go anywhere near where people want, so there's still going to be a huge demand for buses in other areas. make up your mind!

5) Following the hopelessly inaccurate demand forcasts and despite the decimation of the bus network the frequency of trams on the Sunderland - Doxford line was reduced to 3 trains an hour from 5 trains an hour,

What's all this Sunderland nonsense? OK, in Melbourne trams up Fitzroy street are every 5 minutes. What difference does it make? Your talking about schedules which can change and will change.

6) Buses saved on Princes Street - 2 per hour in each direction according to the business case (well it will be more in time when lothian withdraw the rest of the bus network)

So?

Lothian Buses qulaity service???? This is Edinburgh, planet earth you're referring to?

As usu
119

Foo,

24/02/2009 16:53:15
As usual, no real argument of quality. Oh and, we're getting the trams, no matter how many long winded 'facts' the lot of you dream up.
120

Way Out West,

24/02/2009 16:59:17
The trams will NOT be scrapped. They will just arrive 8 months late and at great cost to the Edinburgh taxpayer.
121

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 17:01:16
Foo (119) - I'm not sure I would put money on that just now.
122

AntiEdinburghWhingers,

24/02/2009 17:10:30
Time to cut our losses? Yes: EDINBURGH SOUTH NEEDS A NEW MP!
123

,

24/02/2009 17:14:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
124

Son of Justice,

24/02/2009 17:37:15
#122 - Anyone actually remember Griffiths opposing the trams back in 2006 when his Labour Council pals were pushing the project through? Thought not.

Everything Griffiths says or does these days is calculated on preserving his wafer thin majority at the next Election.
125

Realist,

edinburgh 24/02/2009 17:58:55
It is clearly completely pointless trying to have a rational dialogue with some people on here as they do not want to hear facts only the sound of there own voice and no one elses

However despite what others may say about conspiracy i suggest that anyone who wishes to look at real facts about what can and has gone wrong elsewhere in the UK with tram systems looks at the Sunderland Metro extension it has so many similarities to Edinburgh of political expediency to have something shiny and new when absolutely nothing was wrong with the existing public transport network and how that desire was then used to create a line that had no economic justification what so ever and still some 10 years later is no where near the forecasts made for revenue and patronage.
126

Euan,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 18:01:45
I'm genuinely feeling optimistic that the time to finally cancel this disgraceful tram project is growing nearer and nearer by the day.

#93 Skip, hits the nail on the head.

The gambling analogy he uses is exactly what the councillors and politicians are doing with hundreds of millions of pounds (if not £1 billion) worth of of our money.

TIE are have completely and utterly failed to manage this project to anywhere near the professional standards it would have required.

It is long overdue, but the time has come to cut our losses and completely halt this unwanted and unneeded tram project.

Failure to do this imminently virtually guarantees the total bankruptcy of The City of Edinburgh.

This city will be a laughing stock for decades to come.

Swift action to prevent this has to be taken - NOW.

127

tumshie heid,

24/02/2009 18:37:12
Foo despite your repeated bleating that trams are coming, deal with it, I,m still confident that you and a few others will be eating huge slices of humble pie quite soon.
128

Euan,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 18:42:59
#137

Damn right they will.

The fools that they are.
129

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 18:49:27
Fellow posters, may I propose that we classify ourselves into 2 separate entities over this touchy matter of the trams.

Group 1 should be entitled: 'Tramophobes' i.e those of us who dislike the trams and all their attendant expense, inconvenience and glory hunting project managers.

Group 2 should be entitled: 'Tramophiles' i.e. those few people in Edinburgh who actually for some strange reason(s) believe trams to be a good thing.

Any other offers/suggestions?

I'm off for the night, take care all, see what you've said tomorrow.

130

The Busman,

edinburgh 24/02/2009 18:50:05
#120

Eight months late? More like three years late (ie 2014), and at a cost approaching £1 bn. Which someone is going to have to pay. Who?

Foo - you are right to point out that people will use a tram who would not use a bus, but any realistic cost-benefit analysis would show that you are paying an awfy amount for the car traffic you do remove from the road. Most tram users (80%) are existing bus users, so as a fix for congestion it does not come cheap.
131

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Forthy Bridge 24/02/2009 19:22:51
Most enlightened people support the trams. They, and electrified railways are the only realistic modes of transport that will be viable and affordable in the decades after peak oil. Global oil output is due to fall at between 3% and 6% per year, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that at best that's 30% per decade.

Given that last summer's little oil price hiccup has nailed the economy dead and bankrupted the banks, it is fair to say that more intense cuts in oil supply will change the economy and the way we live.

Anything that is heavily reliant on oil will decline because of lack of affordability, this includes private cars, diesel buses, airports and airliners, farm vehicles, road haulage, tar-mac road surfacing, plastics and fertilizer etc etc.

We rapidly need tramline 1 and 2 and 3 and 4, otherwise within two decades we'll all be walking!
132

Ron S,

Within 750m of a proposed tram line 24/02/2009 19:29:10
#139 Peter
Really there is a third group into which I fit.
Group 3. People who like trams in the right place, at the right time, at the right price and for the right reason, and who also think that this Tie project does not fit these criteria.
I like mainline trains too, but wouldn't take kindly to Tie putting one down Princes Street either.
133

SPG,

edinburgh 24/02/2009 19:33:39
Hey Irvine, Tramspotting. Get "crack"ing.
134

blackcat5555,

edinburgh 24/02/2009 19:56:45
Its important to note that other british cities
who had great ideas about introducing trams, have
now axed proposals BEFORE they started construction
because they were going to be too expensive to build
and run. anyone with a brain could work that one out
except Edinburgh cooncil and TIE....Your are like the
banks billions down the drain, pass the buck the
council taxpayers will foot the bill ho ho ho !!!
135

Ron S,

Within 750m of a proposed tram line 24/02/2009 20:14:41
#142
If airports are becoming unaffordable and obsolete why are we spending a billion quid on a tramline to the airport?
136

,

24/02/2009 20:19:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
137

eDUCATIon,

24/02/2009 20:25:22
142

Most enlightened people....indeed.I would say the opposite!
Oil wont run out in out lifetimes, but by then Im sure the whizzkids will have thought up another source of power as some already have. You stick to your doom and gloom scenerios and leave the rest of us that are mentally fit to get on with our lives. Youre the sort of person who probably is in charge of this Tram LINE project.....not a single clue about anything!
138

is it me?,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 20:31:51
Personally I don't care if we get trams or not. It'll add nothing to my quality of life.
One or two things have to be said though:
to all these people who keep bleating,"fixed price contract". There's no such thing.( Unless you're talking about fitted carpets or double glazing, and even then you're on shaky ground).
No, the resposibility lies with the Client to assess any variables which may affect the final price and to include in the budget a 'contingency sum' to cover these variations.
It has always been smart contracting procedure to assess the job, assess the gullibility of the Client, ...put in a low price and then bleed him dry.
139

krusty the klown,

24/02/2009 20:36:36
#142 - well said, and thank you from the enlightened people
140

Euan,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 21:04:55
#154

LOL!
141

MacKenzie,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 21:21:05
How many prams can you get on a tram?
142

bathwater,

Edinburgh 24/02/2009 21:44:45
As a tram driver I thoroughly endorse the decision to ban prams and babies on trams. I didn't give up my job with LRT and retrain as a tram driver to cart lazy women and their screaming bairns about. In fact, don't let anyone on the trams - that way they will stay nice and clean for longer. We won't be on time anyway and if you havnae got the right change you can get oot and walk! We could teach them in Europe a thing or two about running trams.
143

eDUCATIon,

24/02/2009 21:51:27
157

None....because it wont be built.
144

Julian.,

edinburgh 25/02/2009 01:19:02
#147 black cat

"Its important to note that other british cities
who had great ideas about introducing trams, have
now axed proposals"

Yes, and others went ahead with them, eg, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham (currently extending it's system)
145

Julian.,

edinburgh 25/02/2009 01:23:56
#154,

Nothing wrong with talking about airports...they're an intrisic part of the holidaying experience. Especially, as #148 points out, when you'll be able to get a tram straight there:-)
146

tumshie heid,

25/02/2009 07:56:21
#161 Oh no you won't. The whole sorry scheme is teetering on the brink of the abyss and it won't be long before it plunges to its doom.
147

Foo,

25/02/2009 09:14:58
123 Markatv1ew - If you paid a little more attention you'd have noticed that where 'quality' is written incorrectly, you'd see it's a quote taken from another post, that I was replying to. You, little man, are an idiot, aren't you?

regardless, I don't come on here to win spelling competitions, I come on here to make you look the incontinent (yes incontinent) little twit that you are.

As for #24 - You're exactly the pond life that drags Scotland down. The rest of the world think we're alcoholic twits, and with you still breathing and breeding, it'll be hard to shake off that image.

pwned.
148

,

25/02/2009 10:24:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
149

Foo,

25/02/2009 10:30:37
#164 - I asked a question regarding whether it could be done. You don't like questions then? Everyone's an expert eh, and you know everything there is to know. What a tw@t. You are nothing but a bunnet wearing Scottish idiot.
150

Foo,

25/02/2009 10:34:23
#164 - Oh, and it can be done:

"It has been primarily developed in Germanic countries, in particular Germany and Switzerland. Karlsruhe is a notable pioneer of the tram-train"

Had enough or are you planning to plough on making a tw@t of yourself?
151

,

25/02/2009 10:48:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
152

OnTrack,

25/02/2009 10:59:05
#5 - Well spotted... I posted a similar observation a few weeks ago when more figures were being invented seemingly at random by our local press.... but I was basically accused at once of being Willie Gallagher's concubine...

Much like poor old Genuine Guy... I suspect he's on some really great medication that keeps him so upbeat, but I actually think he makes some sense in between the feelgood lapses. Let's get this project finished. It's great that they've replaced all the old lead watermains and pulled new high speed broadband cables and renewed the gas utilities under Leith Walk... but this is still about improving transport. Good work has been done so far under the roads, but let's see them get started on the surface.

I think other Government contracts with Bilfinger/Siemens et al should apply pressure for resolution. Across the country the public sector has a lot of money going to these guys. A bit of solidarity could help...
153

Foo,

25/02/2009 11:12:12
#167 - As a troll, you suck.

154

,

25/02/2009 11:37:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
155

Foo,

25/02/2009 11:58:24
#170 - Markatv1ew, or Mark.

Sharon still got a night job behind the bar at the Grays Mill?


 

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