Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

Endinburgh Council
 
 
Wednesday, 10th March 2010 Change Date

Tram watchdog asleep on job

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 09 February 2010
A COUNCIL committee set up to scrutinise Edinburgh's tram project met just twice in the last year – and one of the meetings was abandoned when only one person turned up.
Despite fears over spiralling costs and slipping timetables, the Evening News can reveal the council's tram sub-committee has met only five times since it was formed.

Despite the controversy surrounding the project, it also emerged today that only five official questions have been tabled about trams since January 2008 at full council meetings.

• Should city councillors be scrutinising the tram project more effectively? Click here to vote.

Official documents show that since the committee's first meeting in May 2008, it went on to meet twice more that year. Last year, it met only twice, in August and in March – when only then transport leader, Councillor Phil Wheeler, turned up and the meeting was cancelled.

Councillor Mark McInnes, the Tory transport spokesman who sits on the committee, said meetings should be called more regularly.

"My view is that there are lots of questions that need to be asked and that's only going to happen if we ensure there is transparency to the tram project. The whole idea was that councillors would be able to hear regular updates from (tram firm] TIE and the director of city development.

"It looks odd that that hasn't happened and people are going to assume they're attempting to bury bad news."

Deputy council leader Steve Cardownie said there was a strong case for the committee meeting on a regular basis, but said tram bosses would hide any bad news behind commercial confidentiality.

He said: "When that committee was set up it was envisaged that it would meet on a regular basis.

"But they managed to bury most of the bad news a long time ago by telling us it was commercially sensitive. It's been so well buried it's almost at Australia by now."

Small business leaders today accused councillors of being reluctant to "rock the boat".

Alan Rudland, chairman of the Leith Business Association said: "It does concern me that there has been so little accountability so far. All anyone seems to get back from the tram project is that things are running on time and on budget.

"Given the political divide, and the SNP's opposition to the project, it's been surprising that we've not had the sort of robust challenges you might have expected. Nobody seems to want to rock the boat."

A sub-committee of the council's main transport committee, the tram group is supposed to monitor spending, the level of financial contributions received from developers and the level of risk to the council.

It is also meant to oversee the dispute resolution process and approve changes in the design of vehicles and infrastructure, however both these tasks can be passed to the director of city development.

Cllr Gordon Mackenzie, the city's transport convener, said: "We have a variety of mechanisms in place to keep the council and general public informed of tram related issues, the tram sub-committee being only one avenue.

"At the moment we are in the midst of a complicated and confidential dispute process with one contractor and at this stage we cannot report on finances."

Make a call from a new ring road
The Leith Walk phone box
The Leith Walk phone box



PEOPLE in Leith Walk have been scratching their heads as to why a phone box has been left in the road, more than a metre from the kerb.

The box has been there more than six months, since the pavement was narrowed to allow more parking spaces.

Instead of moving it, workers laid the new road around the phone box. They also removed a litter bin – but replaced it next to the phone box in the road.

The box has been smashed by vandals and scrawled with graffiti, although it still works.

Mandy Haeburn-Little, TIE's director of communications, said it intended to remove the phone box, but it had not yet been practical to do so.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 February 2010 12:52 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

TramGremlin,

09/02/2010 10:36:05
Good to see the Council taking this so seriously - NOT!
2

Old Town,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 10:44:54
Yep, Well what do you expect this is our council we are talking about.
3

mik3,

09/02/2010 11:17:43
I want to know where the council is going to get the cash to finish this project from? We know the council is skint and we know this project is over budget. Are they just going to keep building until they run out of cash then beg for more money?
4

Harry from Howgate,

Embra 09/02/2010 11:52:21
This story is unsurprising , as all labour , liberal and conservative councillors voted for the tram , none of them are now going to criticise it are they? When did you last hear a politician say " sorry - we got it totally wrong "

No , theyre all keeping their heads down , and hoping the blame lands somewhere else . In their position would you turn up at meetings where you might have to defend having committed to spending at least £ 600 million of public money on replacing the number 22 bus with the number 22 tram .

And the SNP , who had no councillors at the time , are complicit by agreeing to fund the tram on their watch at Holyrood .

Trams - Edinburgh's disgrace !

5

Proghead,

Embra 09/02/2010 12:03:18
Oh dear, the EN's favourite populist subject, the trams. The trams are NOT being funded from council tax. Private enterprise is funding it ( for now ). And there really isn't any point in having too many meetings about it. It would be like the NHS, meetings about having meetings about meetings. Nothing would be acheived. We've dug the holes, let's get it finished.
6

Old Cartha Boy,

09/02/2010 12:05:01
"Deputy council leader Steve Cardownie said there was a strong case for the committee meeting on a regular basis, but said tram bosses would hide any bad news behind commercial confidentiality".

Steve - it's your job to ensure this kind of stuff does NOT happen!


7

Old Cartha Boy,

09/02/2010 12:06:08
Mandy Haeburn-Little, TIE's director of communications, said it intended to remove the phone box, but it had not yet been practical to do so.

Mandy - explain why it is not practical! If this was a car it would be in the pound by now!

8

Old Cartha Boy,

09/02/2010 12:07:13
Re #5 - Proghead

Private enterprise is funding the trams? Love to hear that explanantion in more detail!
9

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 12:18:59
This just proves what many of us on these threads have been saying for a long, long time - our idiot cooncillors are terrified of TIE, hiding behind the settee, fingers in ears going 'LaLala'. As the elected imbeciles are abdicating their responsibility, the entire shambles should be suspended immediately, and referred for detailed scrutiny by Audit Scotland.
10

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 09/02/2010 12:27:02
even IF the tramsham was funded partly by private enterprise its ludicrous to say that the council tax wont be used to make up the shortfall. considering, the councils own admission, they are £90m short in funds for the whole city and we got jenny heehaw begging already (en emails requesting ideas to save money???(never ever heard of anything so stupid in all my life!, in reality what she is saying is the inept councillors have run out of ideas!)) if they had the guts to tell the truth (ha ha bliddy ha! and pink pigs will fly!) thenmaybe just mabe they could salvage something out of this farce. what i dont know but maybe someone could come in with half a brain and sort out this shambles.i mean? imagine leaving a fone box and bucket!!! beggars belief.
11

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 12:28:31
We need to appoint watchdogs to watch the tram watdchdogs.
12

Skip McClendon,

09/02/2010 12:28:38
School budgets cut by 1%. How much is the tram budget being cut by? Or are trams more important than schools?
13

Fluffy,

edinburgh 09/02/2010 12:33:56
Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!! A tram story at last - or is it?
14

more sorrow than anger,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 12:35:01
There have been no meetings because everything is going 'normally'. The whole thing has been an utter fiasco from day one. Edinburgh's new disgrace has destroyed any chance that a worthwhile tram scheme will be approved anywhere in Scotland for the foreseeable future. These people have done a major disservice to public transport in Edinburgh, severely damaged Lothian Buses and ruined Edinburgh Council's finances for years to come. It is hard to imagine how this misguided project could have been managed any worse.
15

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 12:36:40
NOT PRACTICAL!!!!!! Yet it WILL be PRACTICAL to dig the bl**dy road up again to remove it!!!!!!
16

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 12:38:52
We all know that the project is being funded by the public purse. The council should therefore be holding regular meetings to keep an eye on progress. However the Council is represented at the tie monthly board meetings by Councillors Wheeler (Lib), Mackenzie (Lib), Jackson (Con), Perry (Lab), all with their parties transport portfolio. In addition Mashall Poluton Transportation Manager of CEC normally attends on behalf of the departments Director.
I'm sure Councillor Cardownie is well aware of what is going on, so his comments are just another opportunist dig.
As discussed given they all supported the trams, none of them, with the exception of Councillor Kate Mackenzie, are going to make adverse comment.
17

El Franko,

09/02/2010 12:42:44
If they had met as often as they should have, and looked at 'progress' and again at 'costs and benefits', they would have had to call for the tram fiasco to be cancelled. Solution? Don't meet. Simple as that.
18

VIOLENT ANGRY SHOUTING KOREAN GENTLEMAN,

09/02/2010 12:49:49
SHOULD CITY COUNCILLORS BE SCRUTINISING THE TRAM PROJECT MORE EFFECTIVELY?

Michael Kerrang, 43, giraffe twister, Davidson's Mains: "Yes. I think at least one member of the council should be on-site at all times, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Only then can we become free, or something like that."

Gina Hyaena, 23, part-time two-timer, Davidson's Mains: "Yes, of course they should. They spend too much time ordering fancy coffee and eating danish pastry. Have you seen the photos? They're all overweight. I don't fancy any of them."

Paul Clownsweat, 40, glycerin lifter, Davidson's Mains: "I would like to call attention to the 'Inline image error' on this page. That's because I'm something of a pedant. But I don't have a problem with it."

Wendy McXylophone, 39, cufflink swallower, Davidson's Mains: "No. Definitely not. In fact, they should be scrutinising the project less effectively."

Alfred Spermatia, 83, retired handcream perforator, Davidson's Mains: "I can remember when this was all fields."

Danielle Bundlethroat, 29, freelance alfalfa positioner, Davidson's Mains: "It depends. If we face an imminent terrorist attack or an immense conflagration, then I'm not going to be too worried about trams. Right now, though, I'm most concerned about my mother's incontinence."

Victor Spasmodic, 22, yoghurt welder, Davidson's Thingy: "Sure, I put it about a bit. I don't see anything wrong with that. And I've certainly not had any complaints from any of the ladies. Most of them are quite grateful that I put as much compost on their flower beds as I do."

... and so on, and so on, and so on.
19

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 12:50:48
It's in the contractors interest to keep right on going, covering their failures with the "commercial confidentiality" smokescreen, until the money runs out. Then they'll invoke some contractual clause (that was never properly scrutinised) allowing them to walk away without completing the project.

At which point the council will buy some secondhand Thomas the Tank Engine rolling stock and claim they intended all along to create a tourist attraction.
20

Richard Lionheart,

09/02/2010 12:51:26
#8 Don't worry, #5 is probably an Edinbugh Councillor who voted for the Trams.

It compares to Gordon Brown saying he is investing "Government Money".
21

Harry from Howgate,

Embra 09/02/2010 12:53:32
Thankyou no16 for reminding me that conservative Cllr Kate MacKenzie was THE ONLY Councillor not to vote in favour of the tram fiasco . If my memory serves me correctly she abstained , and was chucked out of the conservative group for 6 months as punishment .

Humble appologies offered to Cllr Kate MacKenzie
22

Edinburgh 100,

Musselburgh 09/02/2010 12:55:14

Proghead.

"Private Enterprise is funding the trams" and what world are you living in to come up with that piece of rubbish ?.
23

The Real Alfonsa Pedrosa,

edinburgh 09/02/2010 12:56:30
Tram watchdog asleep on the job,i have news for you so are the workers.
24

Akira,

09/02/2010 12:57:28
'Should city councillors be scrutinising the tram project more effectively? Click here to vote.'

*clicks link*

'Are compulsory ID checks for anyone who looks under 25 buying alcohol a good idea?'

Emm, yes. *click*
25

Noodle doodle,

09/02/2010 12:59:39
know someone who lives on leith walk and got cracks and subsidence due to tram works undercutting their block of flats

They're now moving into a hotel while the flats are renovated by the tram developers, walls stripped back to brick for replastering, cornice recasting, the works

wonder how much that's costing when you multiply by the number of flats :-)
26

Anna Thema,

09/02/2010 13:02:20
We asked the cream of the EEN's pro-tram contributors whether they will finally admit that the tram project has descended into farce.

Duncan, 38, very pretty winsome man, Davidson's Mimes: "I have never been wrong before and this would be a new experience for me. I would appreciate it if the public allowed me to be alone with my grief."

Foo/Akira, 29, hell of a snide guy and an ineffectual, Davidson's Memes. "I would like to say that I have very much enjoyed the tram debate, that I sincerely respect and admire my anti-tram opponents and wish them all the very best."

Scotsol, 42, professional public transport pundit, Davidson's Means. "I would have to buy Incandescent a pint for him to enjoy while I tuck into my humble pie."

Paul Voltaire, 44, commentator on all aspects of pubic lice, Davidson's Weans. "Trams? Yes, I've always said they should extend the line to Bathgate."
27

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 13:03:51
#16 - You presume that these councillors actually attend the TIE board meetings. (Oh, and Cllr Wheeler is not the Transport spokesman anymore). Remember also that TIE board papers are classed as confidential whereas council papers are not.

In any event, the oversight is through CEC, not its representatives on the TIE board (pretty sure that was in the Bills passed by Parliament). I also wonder what role Transport Scotland is playing in this given it is responsible for disbursing the Govt grant.

It does look like CEC is actually scared to properly scrutinise this project so they can absolve themselves of blame for its inevitable failure.
28

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 13:05:41
Akira, today's online vote is a metaphor for the whole project.
29

Reg W,

09/02/2010 13:07:48
Doesn't help when you have Councillor Cardownie saying the bad news has been buried. surely Steve it's your job to make sure this doesn't happen, your deputy leader of the council after all. Perhaps if you spent more time doing what your paid to do and less time on junkets and freebies the officials might not be able to bury bad news quite so easily.

30

Thinner Bob 79,

09/02/2010 13:08:08
The tram project is set to cost 545 million (or so they say)

500 Million thankfully capped by SNP from Hollyrood
leaving
45 Million for CEC to find

Of the 45 Million.....
21 Million has been borrowed! by CEC
4 Million has been collected from developers
2.5 Million from capital investment program

27.6 Million is WELL short of the 45 Million needed to finish the project. Add to the 17 Million shortfall the added cost of TIE loosing the dispute with the builders AND that some reports have suggested the cost of the project may now reach 650 Million and no wonder no one is attending meetings or wanting to comment on the project.

I wonder how much longer the project can go on before its shutdown due to the money running out or the banks requesting their 21 Million back?.....






















31

Donny B,

EDINBURGH 09/02/2010 13:18:25
No 22 bus gets reprieve as tram line to stop at Princes Street , don't worry though , it will be completed as and when the money becomes available .See Calton Hill for further details.
Good one Anna Thema 26 , I like your style.
32

Diana,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 13:33:52
So basically, just more incompetence.
33

The Busman,

09/02/2010 13:43:47
#31

Agreed.

Now the question is, how long will it take the Scottish Ministers to abandon their promises not to, and actually get involved in the scheme?
34

Ted & Janet,

Belwood Ontario Canada(Twinned with Blairgowie) 09/02/2010 13:44:53
I was just home in Edinburgh for a family matter, two years ago September both of us where home for a two week stay, we live near Haymarket, I note there has been little progress with the Tram project, I watched workmen dig a hole, then fill it up again,are they really getting any thing done? Who is giving direction, looks like no one! Pity the Taxpayers in Edinburgh!
35

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 13:51:06
The online poll has been fixed (it's now about trams), but you can vote for more than one choice!

The IT grunt who programmed that must be moonlighting from TIE.
36

pongo2009,

09/02/2010 13:55:48
Once the projected outturn cost exceeds £545m it would be a very serious professional issue for the project managers to continue without a new authorisation so I dismiss the £600m.....£700m.......£1bn stories. It just can't happen.

All the more reason to get cracking on my Edinburgh Park to the Airport taxi rank EATL scheme.

If money left over a tourist loop with panorama trams and fine dining between Haymarket and St Andrew Square.
37

It's Leith for me!,

09/02/2010 13:56:10
#9 - as well as being investigated by Audit Scotland all councillors who voted for this farce, and especially members of the trams committee should be reported to the standards committee - for gross incompetency, dereliction of duty, being unfit (mentally?) for office and downright lying in many cases
38

Weird panicky spaniel,

09/02/2010 13:57:01
"Should city councillors be scrutinising the tram project more effectively?" is a great question. I look forward to others in a similar vein. Like:

"Should we be more careful when we cross the road?"

"Should we pay attention to what we eat?"

"Should we be concerned about our children's eductation?"

"Should we be careful not to slice off a finger when carving up the Christmas turkey?"
39

Akira,

09/02/2010 13:59:12
Just been having a look at www.edinburghtrams.com. I have to say, trams in Edinburgh will be great. I hope these reports are nothing more than scare stories. To be honest, there doesn't seem to be anything of any real substance though. Just a tabloid doing what tabloids do best, selling papers and advertising by spreading scare stories!

I'm not an expert on tram construction, so I'm not going to guess at the 'correct' amount of meetings they should be having. That said, from what I can see with my own eyes, construction seems to be coming along great with new sections of the line appearing all over the city. I even witnessed a team working at 6:30pm last Sunday!

Even so, I expect it will be late, most grand projects are, just look at the sagrada familia! Lateness is fine by everyone.

Anyway, the network will be great. The northern line, integrated with the city centre line and the western line will be an excellent starting point for the future development of an even more extensive network covering the north east and south of the city. Rome wasn't built in a day!

Even the majority of those against the trams admit that the concept of trams in Edinburgh is a fantastic idea and very progressive, even if they do have concerns surrounding the management and cost of the project (most projects are dogged by such concerns though!)

It's great that Edinburgh will finally have a well built, well maintained and environmentally sound public transport option for the future.

Well done Edinburgh!
40

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 14:05:24
Akira, I'd like to try whatever it is that you've just drunk/swallowed/inhaled/injected.
41

Bandy Mattlements,

Gorgie 09/02/2010 14:05:44
It would be cheaper to turn it into an all-weather bobsleigh run. That would pull in the punters!

Incidentally, it must be 50 years since Gorgie Tony first tried the Luge. It cured his constipation in a flash, but his one piece suit couldn't stand the strain and when he got to the bottom there was a 500m skid mark right down the middle of the Cresta Run.
42

Rugal,

09/02/2010 14:08:17
Absolutely brilliant stuff from The Deputy Leader of The City Council Steve "the cheerleader" Cardownie.

I think someone needs to take Steve aside and explain that his party The SNP are in power and his party The SNP are in overall control of TIE.

He's not allowed to stick his fingers in his ears and go la la la la a big boy done it and ran away.

It's time to face up to the reality Steve, you are at fault for this shambles, you'll have to take the blame when it all goes wrong, you cannot pass the buck this time. Those days are over and the chicken are on their way home to roost.

I'm still shaking my head at his comments. Hilarious stuff Steve you should try stand up sometime.
43

Mince Pie Supper,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 14:11:22
39

LOL
44

ikonoclast,

09/02/2010 14:13:33
The sleeves on Akira's jacket have come undone again. Could one of his carers please fasten them securely round the back and wipe his chin? Ta.
45

regentlad,

Lothian 09/02/2010 14:14:42
Phil Wheeler cracks the council whip, he'd smack any watchdog committee down should they dare pop their heads above the parapet, so probably the reason why they don't bother turning up.

As for Marshall Poulton, he was in charge of the King's Road roundabout debacle - just a 'few million pounds' over the budget returning the junction to a set of traffic lights. Streets in Dodge City could do with some traffic lights wonder if Marshall Dillon's interested in a job exchange . . could do with him on the transport committee !
46

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 14:19:21
Akira, seriously for a moment, I remember arguments similar to yours being made about the Scottish Parliament and look at it now. World class, iconic, value for money, environmentally friendly? No on all counts. It's a farce we're all paying dearly for and the trams will be the same.

Your self-delusional world must be fun at times, but I'm glad I don't stay there!
47

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 14:20:06
So, if I understand this article correctly, at the first meeting of the Tram Sub-Committee immediately following the start of the dispute with the contractors last February, only Phil Wheeler turned up.

This same committee, which is responsible for monitoring spending, the level of risk to the Council, design changes, etc, has not met since August 2009 and the SNP, who declared themselves against the project, have asked only five formal questions about it (assuming those questions were not asked by other groups).

The Council's Budget Meeting is due to take place on 11 February and it seems that the vast majority of councillors will not have the faintest idea of how much more money is needed for the tram project because they are happy to accept that they should not be told on the basis of commercial confidentiality.

With the recent admission that the cost of the tram scheme will exceed £545m, the councillors who sit on the board of this sub-committee and the board of TIE have a clear conflict of interest between representing their respective boards and representing the taxpayers of Edinburgh who are about to suffer yet more budgetary cuts for statutory services.

All councillors are responsible for this situation and pleading ignorance of the scale of the funding shortfall will not be acceptable once the full implications are realised.
48

Rugal,

09/02/2010 14:20:41
I was speaking to an engineer a few weeks ago who has taken a look at the rails in Princes St. His opinion, and he's been working in engineering all his life, no way on earth will a tram be able to run on those rails.

They will have to be lifted and relaid. I wonder who'll end up paying for that? No point in asking The Cheerleader Cardownie he doesn't seem to know he's supposed to be in charge of TIE and the tram line!
49

regentlad,

Lothian 09/02/2010 14:23:05
42: Lets not forget Cllr Perry of Labour, what does champagne Perry know about public transport. Anyone seen him on a bus lately ? When and if the tram ever runs he and his whollyness Rev Aitken will be the only ones on board waving their pensioners passes.
50

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 14:26:11
#45
As discussed the other day. Marshall Poulton arrived at CEC days before the Kings Road roundbaout contract was awarded. He therefore inherited the scheme and the nature of the contract from those before him. I think you will find he has been trying to improve the management of road works in the city, albeit a difficult task.

51

Lala Land,

09/02/2010 14:29:29
I live in Akira's World and its full of fat hairy men called Mario wearing sweaty leather waistcoats while they dig holes in Princes Street.
52

Rugal,

09/02/2010 14:29:54
I still can't get my head round Steve Cardownies statement.

He said: "When that committee was set up it was envisaged that it would meet on a regular basis.

"But they managed to bury most of the bad news a long time ago by telling us it was commercially sensitive. It's been so well buried it's almost at Australia by now."

Steve how can they bury bad news from the people who are overall control? That's you BTW. How did you let that happen and what have you done to stop it?
53

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 14:37:43
#27 Graeme do please keep up.
The minutes of the board meetings are on the web. (Google - Tram tie board meeting) I agree they are pretty brief and not full of the juicy information due to redacting but they are published. Therefore you can see who has attended and the main areas of discussion.

Are you saying that with each party, other than the SNP, being represented on the board word is not getting back to other councillors??

I think we agree, in the same way that Sarah outlines above, that all councillors need to have the appropriate level of information in realtion to decisions that need to be taken about budgets. However the project will go on and it will be completed in one form or another.
54

ikonoclast,

09/02/2010 14:38:52
Lala, please tell me he's not managed to dress himself up as the Fat Controller again?
55

ddhats,

09/02/2010 14:42:05
I jozt woon lazr eey sugary and nooow i cant fckuin cee antything!!!!!
56

regentlad,

Lothian 09/02/2010 14:51:28
52: Rugal, you're in line for the job of Stevie's hat and coat attendant when he becomes the Lord 'Profost' of Edinbury ! I'll carry the travel bag.

Cllr Stevie is quite right regarding the Australia link. The Melbourne tramways need another depot and its believed the hole being dug at Gogar will shortly reach the Melbourne tram system. Whether it ever reaches Leith is another story. Just another wee geological miscalculation from Marshall Poulton, Auld McKay, Wee Dickie and the tie team.

57

regentlad,

Lolthian 09/02/2010 15:00:57
47: That's quite correct Sarah. If the committee is to have any teeth then it should be unrelated and quite impartial of tie, and indeed of the fool council transport committee. Oops did I spell 'full' wrong !

But can we say that any councillor has the where with to serve on a watchdog committee. And Its not just a watchdog that's needed its an audit commission and perhaps custody of this contract given to Mr John Carson who probably knows more about the likely cost than any councillors do.
58

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 15:01:37
#46 Reality Cheque
I agree that Aakira's outlook is somewhat optimistic in the current climate, however while there were many objections and comments relating to the parliament at the time and after the construction, the hoo ha about the cost (including any ongoing issues) is not longer an issue for the vast majority of the public. Its done and dusted. A bit like blowing a £100 quid on a night out when you only went out for a quick pint after work.You can't turn back the clock.

While I am concerned over the trams capital funding shortfall and the potential for fare revenues to be less than predicted, a good deal due to the stutter in the developments because of the recession, once the tram it is up and running the vast majority of people will put all this behind them and move on, because, other than liking a good moan, they are not really interested in government finances and transport planning & provision in the first place.
59

Incandescent,

09/02/2010 15:08:46
#58 Guanyersel

"the hoo ha about the cost (including any ongoing issues) is not longer an issue for the vast majority of the public."

Ummmmm, I think you'll find that's complete and utter poppycock.
60

regentlad,

Lothian 09/02/2010 15:10:37
48: The decision to lay rails was taken by Wheeler and Jenny Dawes, no doubt to let the hoi polloi see something for their money. This nothing to do with Cllr. Stevie (Other than hogmanay nothing has anything to do with him).

Over the recent cold snap grit and sand were flung over the rails by the council causing possible damage. But the rails were in temporary as the track bed will need excavated and relaid, so during that I'd expect the Council or Bilfingers to grind the rails free of grit etc or replace if necessary before re-laying the track again.
61

Rugal,

09/02/2010 15:12:57
#58

Even if they do manage to finish the single tram line, that won't be the end of it. It will take a huge amount of money out of Lothian Buses by way of subsides and we'll be paying off the loans for a generation.

I don't think you have any idea how much this is going to cost, £545m is pie in the sky, if this single line comes in under £800m I'll buy everybody in Edinburgh a pint of what ever you're drinking.

We're not even close to finishing the project and we won't be for at least a couple of years. The original £500m is almost gone, we're way pass the tipping point and before too long we'll be forced into borrowing money to finish it.

Never mind I'm sure Steve "The Cheerleader" Cardownie will be on the case first thing tomorrow, well either that or he'll stick his fingers in his ears and go la la la la la la I'm an ambulance..
62

The Busman,

09/02/2010 15:16:14
#58

We're still in the middle of the night out, it's become a nightmare, and we've spent £50 already. However, if we stop now, we can save the further £50 we know we're going to spend otherwise.

Unfortunately people won't be able to put the trams fiasco behind them when it arrives; because they'll be paying for it, through their council tax, for ever and ever amen! (as Cllr Aitken would say).
63

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 15:16:19
#59
Oh don't get me wrong. People will alwsy say 'Oh what a waste of money £400million for the parliament moan moan moan'. However it is not a daily topic of conversation.
How many times a day do you think about it.
Are you unable to get to sleep over the financial pain and misery it has brought on the country.
Ehh ,No.
People are now more concerend about what goes on inside the bulding than what it cost.
And given the general lack of interest in politics, that will be well down the list behind, Katie Price / Alex Reid, Scotlands Euro 2012 draw, Corry, Eastenders etc etc.
64

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 15:18:43
Guanyersel, "You can't turn back the clock"

Agreed, but the enquiry into the parly fiasco said "lessons would be learned" (don't they always?) and yet clearly they haven't been and here we go again with the trams. This mess was predicted virtually from day one and nothing has been done to correct it.

In principle, I'm actually pro-tram, but think this project has been completely mismanaged and, as a taxpayer, am sick of being ripped off by greedy contractors and couldn't-care-less complacent councillors who trot out the same old nonsense about "it'll all be worth it in the end" because they don't want to rock the boat and hence their post-public-office directorship chances.

If you extended that attitude to your own home and some unscrupulous tradesmen took advantage, you would be rightly angry about it!

Other countries can do big civil engineering projects on time and to the budget and there is no reason why we can't, except for the fatalistic "let's just pay up and not ask any questions" cringing attitude you and people like Akira espouse.
65

go boil ur heid,

09/02/2010 15:19:03
why bother turnng up when the slush fund is almost gone
66

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 15:21:55
#61 Rugal
Oh I think I am intelligent enough to know, even from the more informative posts here, what the financial consequences are. However as I keep saying moaning on here is not going to change a thing. The line will be built and trams wil run on it regardless of the cost.
I'm not saying whether thats right or wrong, just that that is what will happen.
67

Thinner Bob 79,

09/02/2010 15:22:40
#58
"A bit like blowing a £100 quid on a night out when you only went out for a quick pint after work.You can't turn back the clock."

It helps when you have the £100 quid to start with! The only reason work has not halted on the tram right now is CEC took out a 21 Million pound loan!...

CEC are already up to their eye balls in debt and if they want to see the project completed they will have to borrowed a further 20 Million (and the rest)

When the tax payers of Edinburgh see a massive hike in the TAX I am sure they will take notice.
68

Rugal,

09/02/2010 15:23:48
#63 Ok I take your point about the parliament building, but we're not still paying for the building other than general building maintenance.

The tram line will be different because we'll have to subsidise it and pay off the loans.

How are we going to pay off the loans without cutting back? The simple answer is we won't be able to pay off the loans without cutting services. The tram line won't generate any income so Lothian Buses will have to cut services, remember they are losing money too.

We'll be paying for this folly for decades.
69

Rugal,

09/02/2010 15:27:17
Yes you're right the tram line will be built and trams will run on it. Jenny Dawes & Steve Cardownie have agreed to fund the building of the tram line come hell or high water.

They could have taken a step back two and half years ago but they chose to go ahead with the project despite The Scottish Governments pledge that they wouldn't receive a single penny over £500m.
70

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 15:27:57
#58 Busman

Ah but as Sarah B keeps pointing out, this is the second night out (or third fourth fifth....) because we forget about the earlier debacles and couldn't help ourselves getting sucked in again.

We may have spent the £50 but the guys with the kitty are heading for a curry, so what the hell. The kids can wear their shoes for another month and I'll chance a mouthful from the wife. :-)
71

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 15:37:05
In business and economics there is the concept of opportunity cost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
Basically, this asks whether a sum of money could be better spent on something else.

If taxpayers had been asked specifically how they wanted £420M and £545M of their hard-earned income spent, I am fairly certain the answers would have been schools, hospitals and other front-line public services, not some politician's useless wet dream ego trip vanity project.
72

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 15:37:57
#64 Reality Cheque
If you kept a track of earlier posts I have been very critical of the private sector contractors and consultants working on the project. I also agree that the project has been mismanaged by tie.
However my constant point is that moanin on the EEN site will not make any difference to this project or any others.
If you are not going to take to the streets or get actively involved in the political porcesses around the funding of major public and transport infrastructure then these mistakes will be made again and again.
I am well aware other countries develop large scale civil eng projects better than we do. However I live in Scotland / UK and this is how we do things.

If I can't influence change then I tend to take a realistic view and get on with my life.

If thats too cringing for you then so be it.
73

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 09/02/2010 15:40:46
just a thought, we have what is called parliamentary committees that are set up with the sole interest of investigating,monotoring and vetting their respective offices/projects. these committees are funded and committee members are paid for being members, therefor its a natural assumption that this committee is also funded and the so called mambers are paid extra. now who is policing them? are they claiming expenses for a wee trip down to princes street and extra expenses for reading the beano? ooops i meant the plans. in reality they could (the members) be getting a nice little earner from the council tax payer.i wonder if anyone can find out what they really are getting for sitting on a non existant committee?
74

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 15:46:32
#71
Oh please not the web based economics lecture.
Just to be clear, the public will always say Education and Health. The politicians will always put resource in those areas first, unless they are going to war somewhere. Thats why Edinburghs roads are crumbling and other ascpects of the city are neglected because money is directed to these two services. It is the same reason we done even have a full motorway between our two major cities.

The Scottish Budget was passed the other week, should we all have had a referendum vote on that, or as our system operates, do we accept that we elected people to make decisions on our behalf.

As I keep saying if you don't like the system then do something about it.
75

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 15:55:45
Guanyersel - Tonight I am going to a meeting regarding cuts in the education budget which will affect all children in the city almost immediately and with much deeper impacts to come in future years.

Whatever the Council borrows for the tram, it will have to pay back and depending on the level of borrowing that could amount to million pounds per year for the term of the loan, not to mention the interest payments which Lothian Buses (or TEL) would require to meet somehow.

The council has a statutory duty to provide education. It does not have a statutory duty to provide a tramline.
And it particularly does not have a statutory duty to provide a tramline at any cost and regardless of the consequences to every other duty it has.
76

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 15:56:28
should have been "... millions of pounds per year for the term of the loan".
77

Rugal,

09/02/2010 16:00:54
#74 Some might argue that by voting in a political party that was against the tram line we were getting involved. Unfortunately it turned out The SNP were far more interested in holding power than they were representing the views of the people who voted for them. We voted SNP but got Liberal.

The next local election won't be until May 2012, there is an outside chance the tram line will be all but finished by then so why bother standing as a no trams for Edinburgh independent.

It's too late to do anything because as I've already explained Jenny Dawes and Steve Cardownie are going to build the tram whether we want it or not and quite a few of us voted SNP to try and stop the tram line. Aren't we a bunch of idiots for believing them?
78

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 16:02:41
"unless they are going to war somewhere"

Yes, good point! Remind me again why we had to get involved in an illegal war costing thousands of innocent lives and billions from the taxpayers' purse.

As for doing something about it, as a democratic citizen I consider it my public duty to vote, but every time I do, for some reason an unsavoury array of unscrupulous self-serving politicians still end up in power!
79

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 16:05:03
Should have added at No. 76 that the Council is to prioritise its capital spending, with projects in the "high political" category taking priority. That means that schools, sports facilities and virtually anything else currently on the drawing board (or, indeed, future drawing boards) will have to wait until this one tram line is finished.

Having said that, I would not bet my house on the tram line being completed as proposed.
80

VIOLENT ANGRY SHOUTING KOREAN GENTLEMAN,

09/02/2010 16:08:52
I don't think anyone would want you to bet your house on anything, Sarah B.
81

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 16:17:07
"The council has a statutory duty to provide education. It does not have a statutory duty to provide a tramline.
And it particularly does not have a statutory duty to provide a tramline at any cost and regardless of the consequences to every other duty it has."

Easily the most succinct and intelligent comment on this thread. And as no one else seems to want to, I shall say it: Yay, Sarah B!
82

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 16:17:16
Hi Sarah

I'm guessing you will be the only one from the EEN posters attending the meeting, thus making my point.

The council has a statutory duty to provide education but does that include putting the council in hoc through PPP contacts to finance new schools. These types of contracts are being criticised all the time as not represnting value for money and costing more in the long run longer compared to other funding mechanisms. Not sure what the long term picture is for Edinburgh in realtion to PPP but my guess is that it won't be all rosey in the garden.

While the tram clearly has a major impact on council finances it is not the only thing.
The reality is that no-one really wants to pay taxes to pay for services and the services provided will not always be to everyones taste. But that is why we elect politicans to make these decisions on our behalf and employ experts from a variety of sources to infrom the process.
83

Reality Cheque,

09/02/2010 16:30:12
Guanyersel, it seems to me that all you are doing is excusing failure and/or the status quo. As for "employ experts" please name anyone in TIE's ranks with proven ability in this area. When judged by their actions, as opposed to Mandy's bland words, they appear to be a shower of incompetent chancers.

I've got to go now, but thanks for the debate!
84

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 16:30:54
Rugal

"It's too late to do anything because as I've already explained Jenny Dawes and Steve Cardownie are going to build the tram whether we want it or not and quite a few of us voted SNP to try and stop the tram line."

So we are in total agreement, the tram is going to be built (in one form or another at some unknown cost). Therefore all the moaning is not going to change a thing.

I think I'm going to give it a rest and just post the following on every tram story.

God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things that I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Good Luck at the meeting Sarah.

85

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 16:33:59
Guanyersel (80) - "The reality is that no-one really wants to pay taxes to pay for services and the services provided will not always be to everyones taste."

Perhaps not but some services are statutory and others are not, so it seems to me that when Council finances are so tight that the priorities should be quite clear - spend on statutory services.

As far as building new schools is concerned, I was surprised to learn recently that this budget does not come under the Education Department - it comes under City Development. With the tramline taking precedence over all else, it seems that any provision for new school buildings is going to be hard to justify - particularly when it is facing a gaping financial black chasm to complete the tramline.

You may elect the Council to spend vast amounts of money which it does not have on projects pushed by private interests, which it is not legally obliged to provide, and which will, according to its own documentation, have a minimal beneficial effect on congestion, air quality or public transport, but I do not.

I elect politicians in the hope that they will monitor very carefully how public money is spent, ensure the highest quality of services possible for the funds available, and use whatever is left (or find other sources) to improve the quality of life generally. I certainly do not elect them to hawk off assets, get us into deep financial hock for decades, cut back funding to statutory services and generally b****r up the few good performing areas, eg, Lothian Buses.
86

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 16:38:11
#83
Cheers for the debate.
However please look at web based materials for the people and companies involved in the tram project.
Mott McDonald
Faber Maunsell
Steer Davis Gleave
Colin Buchanan
Halcrow
Parsons
Bilfinger
Carillion
Deloitte Touche to name a few.
All major UK and International firms with major transport projetcs under their belts.
Look witness statements for the parliamentary bills for the experience of individuals both with tie and the private consultancies.
Look at the tie web site for Tram Proejct Directors past and present and research their backgrounds.
Note that some people joined tie from the private consultancies working on the project.
You will find they all say they have more than enough experience to undertake this work.
87

ikonoclast,

09/02/2010 16:39:50
Moll ong ur twamsh? Tob degg is... What?

Speak up, Akira. (He's tied up at the moment, but he's muttering something through his Hannibal mask.) Oh, of course, I should have realised!

"Roll on the trams!! Top deck is best!!"
88

Rugal,

09/02/2010 16:40:44
We can still moan, remember we've still got to pay for it and god alone knows what it's going to cost.

How a senior Councillor like Steve Cardownie can have cheek to say that he doesn't have a clue about costs really takes the biscuit. I've always said the man was a fool but that really tops anything I can say about him.

No person in their right mind can vote for that man again or his party The SNP. The largest project in a hundred years and he doesn't know what's happening or how much it's all going to cost.

Breathtaking arrogance or breathtaking ignorance I can't make up my mind which one it is.
89

archie12,

09/02/2010 16:50:21
This whole farce goes from bad to worse. Not only has there been disquiet about the spiralling problems of this whole project, not only have there been articles, stories and features in the media, not only have there been statements from TIE assuring everyone that all is well, but the politicians who were elected to represent us, who were accountable to us and who scrutinise the project on our behalf have simply ignored the issues, buried their heads in the sand and hope it would be alright on the night.
Well it isn't and this is quickly becoming one of the biggest poltical scandals to rock Scotland for many a year.
Cowardice was always met with the ultimate sanction and these cowards will find their political aspirations will be dealt a death blow at the ballot box.
And national politicians? What of them? Where are you, Salmond? Where are you MacDonald? Where are you Swinney? Where are you McLetchie? Where are you Gray? Half a billion pounds of our money! What have you to say?
90

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 16:51:06
Guanyersel (83) - that is quite a list.

How come they and TIE and the Council all got the cost so wrong, and underestimated the technical issues and risk, and forgot to tell us that, even if the economy and property developments didn't take a dive, the tramline would have virtually no beneficial effect?

Quite staggering really, particularly bearing in mind that many tram objectors seem to give evidence to the Parliament warning of those exact things.

As I have said before, it makes you wonder why we bother spending millions on consultants to produce voluminous reports based on dodgy assumptions. Why not save the cash and just let politicians choose whatever testament to their egos they most desire?
91

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 16:52:54
Sarah

What I expect from politicians and what I get from them are two different things.

While the tram does have its roots in the Leith and Waterfont developments, the desire and need for a modern rapid transit system to link into an support existing bus and rail services has been a long term ambition within the council. The Labour Party were voted in time after time with a rapid transit system being in their transport plans.

This project has maybe come at the wrong time and the wrong people have got involved but I am in no doubt that a scheme of this nature would always have been on the cards.

The decision was taken by to get on with it and thats where we are.
92

Iain More,

09/02/2010 16:55:30
re88

It was not the SNP that foisted this scam of the trams on you in the first place. I guess demonstarting your own ignorance shows that you have nothing constructive to say.

The SNP wanted to stop the trams but others in the Leebore, Tory and Fib Dums outvoted them on the issue but then it is patently obvious that you never voted SNP.

As to the costs of it, there is no point in telling an idiot what anything costs when the one brain cell cant discern fact from fiction!
93

Alice Cooper,

09/02/2010 16:56:16
didnt the last set of hot air bags vote through the trams ,signed the deal without even putting a finishing cost to the project
this made it a blank cheque for tie,spend what they like,waste what they like,as the fools,sory wisend elecoterate will just vote in the other mob who wanted this vanity project
if elections were held this thursday and labour got back into the council,i bet cash would be found for their precious trams
and all other projects that other parties are having to cut
maybe at the next election i will just act like a politition ,yes sit on my rear end and do absolutely heee hawwww
94

Rugal,

09/02/2010 17:03:56
A small question for you #92.

Which party, along with The Liberals, is actually building the tram? You sound a lot like Steve Cardownie.

The SNP decided to join with The Liberals and form a coalition. Fair enough. I would have thought though that after standing on a NO TRAMS FOR EDINBURGH manifesto once they had power they'd keep an eye on the company that were building the tram and maybe just maybe keep an eye on that companies spending.

Cardowie seems to have stuck his head in the sand and ignored the fact that his party The SNP are in control of TIE.

His statement above sound like he's still one of the opposition parties. "they buried the bad news" good god all mighty how ignorant is that?
95

Guanyersel,

09/02/2010 17:06:12
Sarah at 90

Because thats the game that needs to be played.
The fact is that in the long run many experts end up being right. Things often come good over time.
The vast majority of objectors (with the expection of your good self) don't always look down the line.

Anyone with an understanding of major civls works could say that the project would overrun both in time and money.

Clearly there was always going to be an impact on Lothian Buses, but as I said the other day the predictions for the Stiling Alloa and Bathagte Edinburgh passenger numbers were far too low.
If a true intigrated transport and ticketing system is in operation then it could, combined with peak oil etc, lead to more people using public transport including bus services.
Therefore we may only know the true failure or success of the tram in years to come.
96

pongo2009,

09/02/2010 17:08:34
#66 Guanyersel
"The line will be built and trams wil run on it regardless of the cost"

OK, that's an opinion but care to opine what happens when the costs exceed £545m, the line is (say) only 3/4 complete and the contractor submits a certificate for payment except there is no money in the kitty?
97

Dragonlord,

09/02/2010 17:20:24
91# Quote:The Labour Party were voted in time after time with a rapid transit system being in their transport plans.

Ok so why did they wait until the knew they were not going to win, before the started the trams? Liebore, Lie Dems a Toerags voted this in and the SNP were stuck with it.
Perhaps Cardownie isn't the best one for the job, but has it been concidered he may have his hands tied and can't say how much it's costing?
98

1RS,

09/02/2010 17:45:24
39Akira, 09/02/2010 13:59:12

keep winding us up.

maybe you should get glasses a have a closer look at the TIE/Tram websites

its single line from the Aiport to Newhaven, not a network.

Edinburgh has a bus integrated bus network

there is no Northern loop being constructed

RS
99

bufp,

09/02/2010 19:38:39
no one wants the hundred up?
100

bufp,

09/02/2010 19:39:02
lazy s*ds!
101

theBestTony1nGorgie,

09/02/2010 19:45:50
Roll on the trams!! The tram depot at Gogarburn is nearly complete. I was out inspecting it this afternoon - pity none of the tram moaners and whingers mention that!!

Then ugly Betty - sorry - archie12 - the biggest source of abuse on this forum inputs his tuppence worth - which ain't worth anything - since he ain't qualified to comment on any engineering project. In fact he talks about his 'driving qualifications' - which are all fake.

Next - loser Euan will no doubt - input his 'expert' opinion. The same opinion that has been proved wrong, many times over. And he refuses to apologise when proved wrong.

The tram moaners are all car drivers, who will have to sit, and wait, and thump their dashboards in anger, as the tram holds them up!!

My glass is always half full!! The tram whingers glass is always half empty!!

Tram project Edinburgh - courtesy of the anti-tram party - the SNP!!! I am having a laugh!!

Roll on the trams!!
102

bufp,

09/02/2010 19:57:09
Nurse!

He's out of bed again.
103

1RS,

09/02/2010 20:28:39
102 - straight jackets come to minde and men in white suits
104

theBestTony1nGorgie,

09/02/2010 20:31:01
#102 - Typical Calum - take it you got banned for the abuse you gave me? Serves you right - this forum is not for abusive folk like you.
105

theBestTony1nGorgie,

09/02/2010 20:31:46
#103 - I agree - #102 does need a straight jacket!! What a laugh!!
106

1RS,

09/02/2010 20:32:23
101

ah gorgie_tony,
aka theBestTonyinGorgie,
aka theBestTony1nGorgie

"the biggest source of abuse on this forum"...talk about the pot calling the kettle black

the man that has has had more quotes "removed" than any other.
a dictionary of words like parasite, idiot

keep it up GT

goodnight for now.....RS
107

theBestTony1nGorgie,

09/02/2010 20:39:35
#106 - I noticed you mentioned me in your comment - why? I am not responsible for abusing other posters - if so - please do post the comments. I do have a frail mind at times, and do tend to forget. So please do refresh my mind.
108

pongo2009,

09/02/2010 20:39:59
#101 "The tram depot at Gogarburn is nearly complete"

Great news. That makes my EATL scheme from Edinburgh Park to the Airport taxi-rank a goer.
109

bufp,

09/02/2010 20:53:40
1RS, who can forget his infantile threat to set his lawyer on us? In case you conveniently 'forgot' that one, Tony, we haven't.

"By the way posters - and I am talking to the ones who use personal abuse against me, and suggest that I am something that I am not. After the advice of a fellow poster, anyone who directs spiteful comments, with suggestions I am something that I am not, I will be taking screenshots, which will be stored for evidential purposes. I spoke to a solicitor this morning and he gave me some very good advice. This has been brought to the attention of the EEN - and they have also been told that any abusive comments, which suggest something I am not, must be removed, otherwise legal action will be taken against all parties concerned. Lets not forget, the EEN, holds information on all posters, so don't think you cannot be traced. I am not against those that dispute my views, but it is targeted at those that make personal comments about my private life - something they nothing about, so they make up things, which are simply not true."
110

Euan,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 21:05:12
#101 Silly old Man

'The tram depot at Gogarburn is nearly complete. I was out inspecting it this afternoon'

Good grief, what nonsense you come out with, you silly, silly old man.

By the way, I confidently predict £3-£4 fares for 1-3 stages with a £7-£8 return to the airport with not a hint of an apology.

Not that it will matter to you Tony, you'll have been pushing up the daisies for some considerable time before this farce is ever completed..
111

1RS,

on the top deck 09/02/2010 21:09:35
gorgie_tony

heres most of your comments

Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator

see a common theme


gorgie_tony....goodnight....rs
112

bufp,

09/02/2010 21:15:31
And then there was this brilliant spoof of Killer Queen.

He keeps catfood and laxatives in his bedside cabinet
"Top deck is best!!" he says, every time he's on the net
The EN's remedy for manners and sanity
At anytime a conversation you would decline
"Idiots and parasites", his favourite epithets
Extraordinarily snide

He's a Nutter Queen
War pistol, tram fiend
Pensioner in neoprene
Guaranteed to spànk your bum - anytime
Argumentative all the time, a disagreeable hypocrite
Works for TIE?

To avoid lawyers invoices, he never kept the same address
In SM dungeons says "just call me Baroness"
Met a man from China, who gave him a big shiner
For accidentally on purpose fondling his behind
Catfood came cut price from Lidl, naturally
For girls he couldn't care less, ridiculous and a fraud

He's a Nutter Queen
War pistol, tram fiend
Pensioner in neoprene
Guaranteed to spànk your bum - anytime

Drop of your breeks he's as willing as, playful in his gimpy suit
Always looking for some action, disciplines and dominates
He'll absolutely thrash you wild, wild
He's out to whack you

He's a Nutter Queen
War pistol, tram fiend
Pensioner in neoprene
Guaranteed to spànk your bum - anytime
Argumentative all the time, a disagreeable hypocrite
Works for TIE?
113

TankEngine,

Edinburgh 09/02/2010 21:24:56
#101 The big building at Gogarburn that is nearly complete is either The Gyle Shopping Centre or RBS. It's certainly NOT the depot. That's still a steel frame in a big pile of mud!!
114

bufp,

09/02/2010 21:47:16
Also check out comment #41 on this thread.
115

tumshie heid,

09/02/2010 21:52:41
Tony, you have thumped your own dashboard for too long.
Stop it you will go blind.
116

1RS,

09/02/2010 21:53:42
gorgie_tony

and here is the rest

Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator
Comment Removed By Administrator

gorgie_tony....goodnight....rs
117

Douglas,

Bathgate 09/02/2010 22:30:29
Arrogant, bone idle, lickspittle, kow-towing apologists for big business seem to have a home in Edinburgh.
Are councillors and their officials completely insulated from the chaos currently ruining the city of Edinburgh?

That felt rhetorical.
118

valleyjim,

GOVAN 09/02/2010 22:39:58
So ur youse gittin a tram? Gid oan yez!
119

Julian.,

edinburgh 09/02/2010 22:43:41
Euan

Glad to see you're finally resigned to the inevitability of this project.

That thing about not making an apology; does that mean you will be apologising if your prediciton on tram fares comes true?

With Lothian Bus fares still sitting at £1.20, for your prediciton to come true that means they'll be setting tram fares 400% higher than bus fares. I know TIE/TEL are a bit incompetent but they'd have to be lacking a brain to make that decision.
120

Julian.,

edinburgh 09/02/2010 22:44:57
Sorry, should have said will you be apologising if your fares predition doesn't come true.
121

valleyjim,

GOVAN 09/02/2010 22:52:29
#120 julian its nae bother sun.Ye dinae neet tae apologise tae oany ae us, zat no rite boyz?
122

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 10/02/2010 00:03:14
Why oh why do they not just ditch this crazy scheme?

It is clear that no-one's heart is in it.
123

Alice Cooper,

10/02/2010 01:27:43
#112 roflmfao
good one ,but what about first track on a night at the opera album
You suck trams a leech
You break the law and you breach
Screw my brain till it hurts
You've taken all my sanity- you still want more,

Misguided old mule
With your pigheaded rules
With your narrow-minded cronies who are fools of the first division -

Death on two legs -
You're tearing me apart,
Death on two legs
You never had a heart of your own -

Kill joy, Bad guy,
Big talking, Small fry
You're just an old barrow-boy
Have you found a new toy to replace me,
Can you face me -

But now you can kiss my a-ss goodbye

Feel good, are you satisfied

Do you feel like suicide (I think you should)
Is your conscience all right
Does it plague you at night,
Do you feel good - Feel good!

Talk like a big business tycoon,
But you're just a hot-air balloon,
So no one gives you a damn,
You're just an overgrown school-boy
Let me kick your hide.

A dog with disease,
King of the `sleaze'
Put your money where your mouth is Mr. Know all,
Was the fin on your back part of the deal... (shark!)

Death on two legs
You're tearing me apart
Death on two legs -
You never had a heart of your own,
(You never did, right from the start)

Insane, you should be put inside,
You're a sewer-rat decaying in a cesspool of pride
Should be made unemployed
Then make yourself null-and-void,trams to avoid
Make me feel good
I feel good.
124

theBestTony1nGorgie,

10/02/2010 04:45:48
I tell you what. I feel sorry for that gorgie_tony. Some of the abuse he takes on this forum is unbelievable. I find it hard to believe that the likes of calum, euan, rs, bufp, and many others haven't been banned. They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
125

Julian.,

edinburgh 10/02/2010 05:36:26
I can't believe Euan thinks the tram fares could be as much as £7...makes you wonder about the sense of his whole anti-tram position;-)
126

jtdx,

10/02/2010 08:44:07
#109 bufp, how can you set lawyers on people for abuse directed at you. If no-one knows who you are, then how can you be "damaged" by any comments made here?

Now if you are called Mr (or Ms) bufp in real life then that would be different, otherwise I think you are just being ever so slighly ott here.
127

Euan,

Edinburgh 10/02/2010 18:05:57
#125 Julian

With a current 'open return' of £6 on the airport bus, why do you think that in around four years' time (should the project ever be completed of course), a return on the tram to the airport would not be between £7-£8?

I would say that price seems perfectly possible. It may well even be up to £10 return.




 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.