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Tram chiefs have six days to end Princes Street stalemate

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Published Date: 13 March 2009
By Andrew Picken
TRAM bosses have just six days to break the stalemate with their contractors or face having their cash wrangle settled by an independent panel of industry experts.
A cut-off date of March 19 has been set for crisis talks between TIE and its contractor Bilfinger Berger to reach a compromise over work on Princes Street, or the matter will go to adjudication.

This process would see a group of construction industry experts take evidence from both parties, as well as calling key witnesses such as former trams boss Willie Gallagher, before eventually reaching a decision on who is to blame and how much extra money, if any, would have to be spent.

• Power Goes down after tram workers sever cable

Adjudication would take around six weeks to complete meaning it could be the summer before work finally gets under way on Princes Street.

The adjudication process was agreed when tram contracts were signed in May last year and would be held in private. The Evening News revealed last month how Bilfinger has already fought and lost three previous disputes with city transport bosses at the so-called "dispute resolution panels".

The disputed work on Princes Street is expected to cost up to £20 million though delays to the whole tram programme are expected to cost much more. News of the looming deadline came as city leaders reaffirmed their commitment to the airport to Newhaven line following criticism from opposition politicians that the city leader Jenny Dawe is not showing enough leadership on the project.

Councillor Iain Whyte, the city's Tory leader, said: "I understand that it is difficult at times with the ongoing contract talks but I do think we need to see the council taking more leadership.

"We need to see this resolved as soon as possible and ideally without going to adjudication."

Councillor Andrew Burns, the city's Labour leader, added: "The administration has been in charge for nearly two years now and we should see them out there leading from the front."

The Evening News revealed earlier this week that just £40m remains of the original £96m set aside for overruns or problems on the line. Overrunning utilities work has taken up a lot of this money but tram bosses today said these works will be "substantially completed" by July.

Transport chiefs are considering a number of options if talks with Bilfinger are not resolved, including opening the Haymarket to Edinburgh Airport section ahead of the rest of the 16km route in a bid to speed up the project.

Another idea is to bring the management of installing the tram track and overhead wires in-house.

It might also be possible for Siemens – which is part of the tram building consortium, along with Bilfinger Berger and tram maker CAF – to take over Bilfinger's role.

Councillor Dawe, said: "We are in no way shirking our responsibilities. People can choose what they like to believe but I can assure you we absolutely intend to build the tramline from Newhaven to the airport within the budget available."

A spokesman for TIE added: "We are doing everything in our power to resolve the issues within the parameters of the ongoing dispute resolution procedure."


The full article contains 543 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 13 March 2009 12:06 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 13/03/2009 12:04:43
Ajudication,there will be only one winner here,and that is Bilfinger Berger,that you can bet on.
2

eric,

Lothian 13/03/2009 12:06:25
One good thing to come out of all this.Is how not to do it.
3

discoman...,

13/03/2009 12:06:32
The people of Edinburgh don't want the trams..
4

Bring Back Poll Tax,

13/03/2009 12:06:47
A spokesman for TIE added: "We are doing everything in our power to resolve the issues within the parameters of the ongoing dispute resolution procedure."

I.E. nothing beyond burying our heads deeper into the sand and waiting for the arbitration clause to kick in.

A TIE spokesperson said: (after removing their cycle clips and brushing dandruff off the shoulders of their beige cardie) "After all, why rush the process along, it's not as if it's inconveniencing anybody in our nice warm offices and we don't want the full scale of our incompetence to become public any earlier than it needs to....."
5

Myke Wylson,

13/03/2009 12:07:54
Well said Councillor Burns. You led from the front and gave us the City of Edinburgh Traffic Management Scheme which brought the city to a halt and had millions of our pounds spent putting it back the way it was.

Full steam ahead and follow me. Aye Right.
6

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 12:09:58
Councillor Andrew Burns, the city's Labour leader, added: "The administration has been in charge for nearly two years now and we should see them out there leading from the front."
Says the man who helped set up TIE as an ARMSLENGTH company. Did he not understand what that meant at the time ?
7

Myke Wylson,

13/03/2009 12:10:40
Councillor Jenny Da Dawg, said: "I can assure you we absolutely intend to build the tramline from Newhaven to the airport within the budget available."

What happened to "on time and on budget"?
8

James (1),

13/03/2009 12:11:05
This it a tough one? I am thinking the council have a brilliant track record (no pun intended)so this company will probably just tell the council "Can you make the cheque out for cash what with the banks and all. Who can you trust?"

Settle before Mr Gallagher has to explain is abandoning ship for "personal reasons".
What were they? Most likely this dispute was looming on the horizon and his cash had to be protected.
9

James (1),

13/03/2009 12:14:03
Where are the three pro tram supporters?
10

BeenThereSeenIt,

13/03/2009 12:14:05
TIE & The Whole Council should be resigning now - Lets have then all resign and let the people decide - Enough is Enough
Calton Hill is known as Edinburgh's disgrace
Soon it will be a trams system that is going nowhere - Certainly not down to Newhaven where development has stopped and can't start again until the "Credit Crunch" is well and truly finished!
Mark you - the way things are going - that will be when TIE eventually finished the trams!
11

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

13/03/2009 12:14:12
This is ridiculous - take it to Judge Judy!
12

Leila,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 12:18:59
It would be quite a journalistic scoop to get an interview with Willie Gallagher about his departure from TIE. Surely someone must have tried?
13

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 13/03/2009 12:20:37
It really is time that the councillors involved in this disaster faced criminal charges. I am sure that in due course the national audit office will be feeling a few of these idiot's collars.
14

Bob 2,

13/03/2009 12:26:43
independent panel.....lets hope it goes to this and at least we will find out the true cost of the tram line.


Pro/anti or inbetween.... lets us know the truth... instead of this On time On Budget....spin
15

Bob 2,

13/03/2009 12:29:08
good comment No6

6 Myke Wylson,13/03/2009 12:07:54
Well said Councillor Burns. You led from the front and gave us the City of Edinburgh Traffic Management Scheme which brought the city to a halt and had millions of our pounds spent putting it back the way it was.

Full steam ahead and follow me. Aye Right.
16

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 12:29:58
The article above states "Transport chiefs are considering a number of options if talks with Bilfinger are not resolved, including opening the Haymarket to Edinburgh Airport section ahead of the rest of the 16km route in a bid to speed up the project" while the Hootsmon of this morning has "transport chiefs dismissed suggestions that they were considering scaling back the proposed £512 million network in the wake of the dispute and mounting construction delays" - CONFUSED - You will be!
Meanwhile, the prospect of 'a group of construction industry experts' taking evidence from both parties, as well as key witnesses like slick WyLie Gallagher, suggests TIE will be ordering a few pairs of brown trousers for the occasion.
17

Vandala,

13/03/2009 12:30:44
#14. Obviously, he would have signed a confidentiality clause.
18

Bring Back Poll Tax,

13/03/2009 12:35:10
#11 Where are the three pro tram supporters?

They're not online at present - all TIE staff are in an urgent crisis meeting following the discovery that someone in the office has accidentally ordered non environmentally friendly photocopier paper in a belated attempt to save a bit of dosh. After they've appointed a non-judgmental sub-committee to investigate, they may get back to their desks in time to plan their next fact finding beano, sorry, visit.
19

foz,

up a scaffold 13/03/2009 12:36:02
Well remembered No.6
Mr Burns has cost this city a fortune and has the nerve to blame everyone else.
20

Foo,

13/03/2009 12:38:49
#20 - You're funny. You should be on stage.
21

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 12:40:25
#20 Hello.
22

,

13/03/2009 12:42:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 12:48:10
#s 6 & 21 - And some of us also remember that it was Dopey Burns (and his politically-late mentor, The Dear Leader Anderson) who squandered 9 Million Taxpayers Quids just to prove that the people of Edinburgh REALLY, REALLY wanted him to stick his TollTax where the Sun never shines.
24

regentlad,

Lothian 13/03/2009 12:51:59
16: Council sources say the dispute is over a figure 'nearer to 20m,' but the Germans say 80m, we shall soon see who is correct or will the Council pay up before the adjudicators arrive?

17: Andrew Burns of Labour is one of the culprits responsible for the almighty tram mess and the chaos we see daily on Edinburgh's streets. The traffic scheme you mention was 5 million directly down the plughole most of it enjoyed by 'consultants'. Aside from the tram mess anyone wanting to see a view of Burns' and the Rev Aitken's projects just go down to Kings Road 'roundabout' and visit the councils ongoing pet project 'How to change a roundabout to a set of traffic lights (which used to be there) in yearly instalments....weather permitting!'
25

pongo2009,

13/03/2009 12:52:16
My first trip past the mock-up since the first couple of days. To those doubters who think nobody is listening here I noted the destination display no longer goes to Cupar. Just Edinburgh to Edinburgh now.

Also noticed the illuminated sign inside which says "STOPPING".

Ha, progress.
26

scotsol,

13/03/2009 12:54:28
#24,#26 - God. I don't think I can bear to read any more postings from anti-trammies trying to be funny. You take over Foo, I've been battling with these loonies all morning in the Scotsman.
27

Bob 2,

13/03/2009 12:56:52
and how would you like to pay for your Single Tram fare

We have a buy now pay later option
or
You can just stick an IOU in the machine
28

Old Cartha Boy,

Starbank Inn 13/03/2009 12:57:46
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/businessBulletin/bb-09/bb-03-13e.htm

See the questions posed today by Des McNulty in the Parliament - answers ought to be very revealing!
29

Bob 2,

13/03/2009 12:58:05
Independent panel....lets hope it goes to this and at least we will find out the true cost of the tram line.


Pro/anti or inbetween...lets us know the truth... instead of this On time On Budget....spin

the Truth is out there
30

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 12:59:19
#29 - I don't think there are many of those you contemptuously dismiss as 'anti-trammies' find this situation remotely funny. It's a Tragedy that most of us saw from the outset.
31

Bob 2,

13/03/2009 12:59:24
but know doubt they will be arguing over who pays for the independant advice.

and will have to ge another independant panel to decide on that......it could go on for ages

Its No our fault....
32

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 13:03:59
"The adjudication process was agreed...... and would be held in private."

Anyone know why it should be held in private?

They have a lot of 'dirty washing' and don't want the full facts made known to the public. TIE's attitude seems to be that the citizens of Edinburgh should just pay up and look pleased.

What a scandal this sham project is.
33

regentlad,

Lothian 13/03/2009 13:05:27
Councillor Peacock of the Lib-Dems, known for his rants that trams will benefit Portobello (and geography is one of his better subjects!), has re-urned from hiding and asked us to vote George Lyon of Lib-Dems at the euro elections on 4 June. Funny how Councillors suddenly appear near elections. Remember the date - this the first chance at the polls for voters to say what they think of this nonsensical and dangerously idiotic party. And what they think of the other 3 'blank cheque' parties - Labour, Tory and Greens. All are still telling us trams are good for us. Time to let them know what we think is good for them!

34

nSyratzcGlaw,

13/03/2009 13:06:42
Well, its a thankless task, I will say that much.

35

FRAM,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 13:07:06
Councillor Dawe should stick to knitting along with the rest of the Liberal Democrats who forced the tram project through.

Will they take the blame when it all ends belly up???

Absolutely clueless.

Edinburgh has the best bus service in the UK bar none but it will be ruined when they try to force people to use trams which link very few residential arears with very few work areas
36

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 13:07:50
#33 - and do we think that Des McNulty, MP, (Labour)will also ask the Scottish Executive if it could remind him and his Parliamentary Colleagues which bunch of complete numpties thought it was clever to ambush Alex Salmond's new Government and force him to abandon a manifiesto pledge by throwing half a Billion quid at this Monument to Politicial Vanity? No, neither do I.
37

Leila,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 13:09:54
I thought 18 March was the deadline for signing the fixed-price contract for Line 1b? Can we take it Line 1b is now officially dead?
38

Harry Callahan,

13/03/2009 13:13:28
#13 Take it to Judge Poo - I'm sure you would not mess around.
39

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2009 13:14:40
#1 Bizarre thing to say, considering at the three previous adjudications Bilfinger have lost.
40

regentlad,

Lothian 13/03/2009 13:18:27
35: Exactly 55 years ago the Tory party were dismantling and sending to oblivion Edinburgh's tram system - one of the best in the country. Now they along with Labour, Lib-dems and Greens are doing the same to Edinburgh's bus system. As the tram costs increase the council bus company will be sold off and bus routes and services that we've come to know over the years will be gone. All for the sake of a single tram line - could someone not have given Andrew Burns, Anderson, Dawe and Provost Grub toy train sets ?
41

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 13:21:23
#29 scotsol

"You take over Foo, I've been battling with these loonies all morning in the Scotsman."

If I were to compare it to a battle, it would be The Little Bighorn, with you playing the part of Custer.
42

Harry Callahan,

13/03/2009 13:24:44
#48 I wouldn't be surprised if scotsol and Foo are the same person.
43

Harry Callahan,

13/03/2009 13:28:03
A Friend of Fernando Poo

Hope you haven't forgotten about Dagda tomorrow?? You were going to buy me a beer and give me a crate of corona.
44

Harry Callahan,

13/03/2009 13:28:51
#51 Scotsol's more of a pram.
45

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 13:29:48
regentlad (47) - All is not yet lost. I hear that, at the Council meeting yesterday, the tram/bus recommendations did not go through completely unhindered and that a risk assessment has now been ordered.

Let's hope that neither TIE nor the Council are involved in that risk assessment and that Lothian Buses, who have been stubbornly mute on the subject, grab this opportunity with both hands and spell out exactly what such a merger would mean to public transport fares and bus services.
46

Big bob 79,

13/03/2009 13:30:41
#51 you could be right, I saw three people handing out tram leaflets yesterday with t-shirts that said "I am the Foo"
47

Forthtag,

South Queensferry 13/03/2009 13:34:29
Councillor Dawe, said: "We are in no way shirking our responsibilities. People can choose what they like to believe but I can assure you we absolutely intend to build the tramline from Newhaven to the airport within the budget available."
Has she not heard the old saying

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

and the trams project is heading there fast!!!!!
48

The Judge,

13/03/2009 13:36:22
Councillor Dawe, said: "We are in no way shirking our responsibilities. People can choose what they like to believe but I can assure you we absolutely intend to build the tramline from Newhaven to the airport within the budget available.

-----

So there we have it in black and white. Whether your pro or anti tram we're getting a single tramLINE from Leith Docks to Edinburgh Airport, and better still it's going to be on budget.

Just one point, I thought Tie were building the tramLINE. Has the City Council taken over the management?

What date is the next council elections?


49

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 13/03/2009 13:36:25
6 - it was the fascists in their cars who brought the city to stand because they could not understand a few signs . Lsy off Councillor Burns .
50

Bring Back Poll Tax,

13/03/2009 13:37:13
#25 - never mind the 9 million on the pointless and hated road tolls scheme, what about the 11 million spent on the failed "guided busway" - still, at least a few of the great and good got some quality trips on expenses to carry out the fact finding.......
51

Diana,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 13:37:30
The city council are just looking for an excuse to raise our taxes - this'll be it.
52

Wee Dennis,

13/03/2009 13:38:07
Am I missing something here. The railway runs right past the airport from the city centre. Build a station and hey presto.From what I can see the proposed tramway merely tracks the existing rail line.The lunatics have taken over.
53

Man On Corstorphine Omnibus,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 13:39:37
The so-called "merger" of TIE and Lothian Buses is a scam. As an arm's length, council-owned company, LB is required to operate without subsidy from the council. Up to now, this it has done - and all profits (after expenses) have been ploughed into new vehicles. After the "merger", LB profits will go to subsidising the uneconomic tram line; eventually the bus fleet will crack up through lack of new vehicles and what was once a highly efficient (if a little bit eccentric) municipal bus operation will be sold off for tuppence to Stagecoach or First Bus.
54

The Judge,

13/03/2009 13:41:31
#60 why would the city need to raise our taxes?

According to Councillor Dawe the tramLINE will be on budget, after all she has all the information at her fingertips and as we all know she has a *ahem* track record for delivering multi contract projects.

I for one believe every single word she said.
55

Bill MacD,

13/03/2009 13:48:25
Actually sticking to the point of the story, it's reassuring that the Council representatives have a proper contractual dispute resolution procedure. The diehard whiners will of course moan on as usual. But this sort of difference of positions is a normal part of any large project, so it's good that it's being handled professionally.
56

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 13:50:40
#45 - I think you'll find if you look again that I posted eight times. Your grasp of truth and accuracy is as impressive as ever.

#48 Incandescent, I didn't know Custer was defeated by native Americans shouting nyah nyah nyah-nyah nyah and quoting phoney science. Thanks for enlightening me. But I'm afraid it'll take more than that to defeat either me or the trams.
57

The Judge,

13/03/2009 13:56:46
Well said #64 I'm pleased the project is being handled by well seasoned professionals.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Council/Council_Business/councillor_database/Councillors_2/CEC_ward3_member_b

A quick look at Jenny Dawes register of interests tells you she's just the person to deliver a half a billion pound transport project.

We know as of the 13th March 2009 the project is on budget, I'm sure Jenny wouldn't lie to us.
58

Bring Back Poll Tax,

13/03/2009 13:57:56
#62 - it's more probably the tram network that'll be sold off - just like in Sheffield where after spending £240 Million (1994-1994) its 18 mile operation was flogged to Stagecoach after experiencing lower than expected passenger revenues. - so no surprises when the same is announced after Edinburgh's first years of operation.....

So, on the basis that they may only manage to build just over a third of the line for 5-700 million, TIE can look forward to maybe the same windfall to plug its first year's operating losses.......
59

pongo2009,

13/03/2009 14:03:32
from the Audit Scotland report.....

Line 1(a+b) estimated benefit £1.63 per £ of cost

Line 1a £1.1 per £ of cost

Very marginal figures for 1a only but no committed finance for 1b

Oh dearie me
60

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 14:04:50
#65 scotsol,

Aren't you confusing the trams with the 'Iron Horse'?

61

Foo,

13/03/2009 14:14:33
The anti tram brigade would have everyone believe they are barrel chested, light hearted, intellectual poet warriors who routinely conclude mult-million £ contracts thanks to their keenly honed business skills.

Furthermore, their highly developed BS detectors have led them to conclude anyone for the trams is either employed by the development team, resident at carstairs, a deviant, or all three.


62

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 14:25:07
#70 Foo,

"poet warriors" You copied that from 'Braveheart' perhaps that's a copyright offence?

It remains a great pity that the last Labour controlled Council didn't hold a local referendum on this issue, but I guess they knew it would be defeated and didn't want to face it.

63

James (1),

13/03/2009 14:25:19
#70 spot on with your last paragraph. No sane person who is not employed by Council/TIE would have the front to say this is just a blip and all is well.
All is clearly at the farthest extreme of well.

This (misad)venture is going to cost Edinburgh dear for many years to come.
64

foz,

up a scaffold 13/03/2009 14:41:41
58# more like "voice of a looney". Sitting on a bus was fun as well in the chaos. Can we start on Anderson instead then or are we not allowed :)
65

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 14:44:44
#70 Foo - It's interesting that you should conjure up such a picture.
66

Wingman,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 14:52:46
65#, 70# = You guys are a hoot, see when everyone else is wrong bar you 2 , does that really not mean anything to you ??
67

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 14:55:28
#72 James (1)

"This (misad)venture is going to cost Edinburgh dear for many years to come."

Yes, James, it will cost us dear (i.e. the Council Tax payers of Auld Reekie).

You may not have seen the many comments sent in to yesterday's article regarding the possiblity (probably very high) of the shortfall balance being put onto the CT payers.

Sarah (b) posted to say that she had approached Councillor Cardownie on this matter and would not commit himself one way or the other (other psoters provided similar results).

Given the severity of the world-wide recession, it does not seem likely that 'Wheeler Dealer' and the TIE gang will be able to raise the cash through Banks, etc which only leaves the good old local cannon-fodder (i.e the Council Tax payers) to carry the can.

At the outset of this proposterous 'project' it was promised by the then Labour controlled Council that Council Tax would not be used/effected by the trams. It is now time for all of us to approach our Councillors and MSPs to demand assurances that CT will not be used to bail out this disasterous scheme.
68

James (1),

13/03/2009 14:55:42
#71 Come on Foo admit it, you want to join us anti trammers? Even you can see that this tram line is doomed. The idea of a tram line is a good one but the run away cost far outstrips the benefits we will ever get from it and that is sad but true.
We are creating our own local equivelent to the national debt. Running up debts that only Edinburgh residents will need to pay back.
69

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:00:16
#71 - Government by referendum is a thoroughly bad idea. They're just a way for ignorant reactionaries to dictate the agenda and block anything which is going to cost money, for a variety of selfish reasons which they don't even have to justify. Local authorities hold them all the time in America, and as a result their infrastructure's falling apart. Green issues are never going to be universally popular because they inconvenience people in the short term, but unless we bring them in we're all sunk - literally.
70

Foo,

13/03/2009 15:02:51
#71 - You're right of course. Pre-Braveheart there had never once been a case of the two words 'poet' and 'warrior' being placed anywhere near each other.

#75 - I'm not saying anyone is wrong about anything. I support the trams. I'm sure the majority of the anti-trammers are decent, law abiding poet warriors. It's just they don't support what I do. Must be a boring black and white universe you occupy mate.
71

Foo,

13/03/2009 15:08:44
#77 - James (1). I honestly find myself in a dilemma. I think the idea of trams for the city is amazing, and I really do think there's a good case for getting them there whatever the budget, as once the balls rolling, the network will develop over the years.

However

I don't rate Edinburgh city council, TIE, the government at all. Also I'm loath to be in the same camp as that nightmare, Gorgie_I hate all life_Tony.
72

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:08:59
#78 Scvotsol,

Sorry, I believe Green Issues are a lot of bunk (pure and simple).

Projects which have the potential to be ruinous in one way or another or will involve huge amounts of tax payers cash need to be put before the electorate for a fair and democratic decision.

73

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 15:18:07
#78 scotsol

"Government by referendum is a thoroughly bad idea. They're just a way for ignorant reactionaries to dictate the agenda"

Poor grammar not withstanding, I'm absolutely certain you'd want an opportunity vote outside the normal election timetable on any capital project that disn't meet your green agenda (even though you're only deluding yourself that this one does.)
74

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:19:32
#81 - yeah, so people like you can vote them down on the grounds that "Green issues are a lot of bunk", deliberately denying the massive body of scientific evidence now accepted by all responsible governments in the world, simply because you like to drive your 4x4. Unbelievable. You're a perfect example of why there should never be a referendum.
75

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 15:20:36
#80 Foo

"in the same camp as that nightmare, Gorgie_I hate all life_Tony"

Careful with your choice of words there Foo. You might bring down his wrath upon you.
76

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 15:21:35
#82

"doesn't"
77

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:23:25
#82 - Thank you for the lecture on grammar. What does "opportunity vote" mean? Or "disn't"?
78

Jingsitsme,

EDINBURGH 13/03/2009 15:30:56
I hope a solution is not found as same situation will happen again before trams finished.

So cancel it completely as we don't need it. Develop a good and reliable bus service instead. Why should we settle for a second class trams service to give away extra money.
79

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 15:33:27
#86 scotsol

Obvious typos. I have to type quickly because, unlike you, I have more to do than spend all day defending the indefensible in the deluded belief that it might contribute something to your pet cause.

"Government by referendum is a thoroughly bad idea. They're just a way for ignorant reactionaries to dictate the agenda"

"referendum" and "it's" or "referenda" and "they're". That's clearly poor grammar.
80

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:36:14
#83 scotsol,

Bad luck Scottie, I don't own a car let alone a 4x4.

Like most Greenies, you wouldn't recognise scientific evidence if it junped up and hit you in the face.

People like you are an excellent reason for holding referenda.
81

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:42:58
#86 - Referenda? Pedant. We're speaking English, not Latin. Do you say "pendula"?
82

regentlad,

Lothian 13/03/2009 15:43:45
54: Would hope that Audit Scotland have no involvement in it either. They and this Council ought to undergo major risk assessment to protect us from their nonsensical reports and mad ideas. The Council will do all they can to 'influence' this risk assessment, the tram project hinges on the bus operations subsidising it.

The tram line, if ever built, will never be in profit and if demographics change along its route it could turn out to be a serious loss maker. In event of changing demographics we can divert buses to other areas but can't divert trams from a tram line! And that one of the main reasons trams were abandoned 55 years ago.
83

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 15:44:15
Is it coincidence that green "action" invariably involve taxes, which, instead of being ring-fenced for "green measures", become (to quote scotsol) "an important plank of general taxation"? I think not.

Anyway, I/we digress. The "carbon footprint" of the trams is so large it would be many years, if not decades, before it could be claimed to have had a positive overall effect.

A nuclear-powered maglev would certainly be "iconic"...until a ned throws a half brick through the windscreen.
84

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:46:59
Part 1 of the STAG 2 report on www.tramsforedinburgh.co.uk (page 135) will tell you what effect the tram would have on air quality.

From what I can see, the effect is minimal and, even that was predicated upon taking thousands of cars off the road at the Waterfront/Granton. Without that development, the figures are even worse.

I understand the rationale behind the use of trams but the problem in Edinburgh is that the route chosen was so heavily reliant on the Waterfront. Even at the height of the property boom, people were not investing there at nearly the levels required and there is no guarantee (without a radical change in thinking about how that development could be made more attractive) that people ever will. Therefore, the argument in relation to environmental benefit in the case of the Edinburgh Tram is spurious.



85

Foo,

13/03/2009 15:47:35
I don't think its right to criticise people for being 'green'.

It's on a par with sh1*ting in your own living room and calling someone a 'cleany' for wanting to clean up the mess.

We all have to live here; wouldn't it be best just to create a bit less pollution and waste, whatever your opinion on its effects on global climate shift?
86

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 15:47:35
#90. If the sentence called for it, yes. However, I don't remember ever being part of a discussion involving more than one pendulum. It's a situation a clockmaker might face with greater regularity though.
87

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:53:57
regentlad (91) - My understanding is that, when it comes to projects of this sort, Audit Scotland can only be regarded as a kind of forensic accountant, ie, that they would only become involved, if deemed appropriate, after the project has, for whatever reason, come to an end. They do not like to get involved whilst a scheme is ongoing just in case they give it a clean bill of health and it subsequently goes over budget, thus putting themselves in a position of accountability.

When the Auditor General was asked to look at the scheme just after the last election, I understand that he set his own remit and that covered a very limited scope, eg, methodology to arrive at the costs, but not the costs themselves.

I heard that, at the Leith Meeting this week, someone asked, given that the AG had declined to become involved, who was now monitoring the project and costs and that you could have heard a pin drop from the panel as the answer is, of course, no-one.
88

Leila,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 15:56:54
#87 has a point: why should we settle for a second class tram service when we could have (indeed have!) a first class bus service?
89

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:00:39
#95 - Well, I look forward to the anti-trammers all falling on their ba, then.
90

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:06:36
#94 Foo,

Surely a true Greenie would just grind said effluent into the lounge carpet and grow potatoes.

Seriously Foo, the arrival of trams would probably only make a very minor alteration to pollution and at that not necessarily a beneficial one depending of course upon the fuel used in the generating station(s).

Re Green ideas in general, much of our climatic changes are down to the Sun, volcanic activity and to chemical changes in the world's oceans. The 'hand of man' has but little effect in comparison to these titanic influences.

Sorry, I am quite convinced that most green policies are simply tax (cash) raising scams - the trams being a typical example (certainly at the prices offered here).

I'm off for the weekend, take care everyone, see you all next week as the tram programme grinds inevitably on and on.

91

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:09:09
#98 Scotsol,

Please define a 'ba' for me (excue my ignorance). Does it hurt if one falls on it?

92

regentlad,

Lothian 13/03/2009 16:09:13
81: Agreed.

94: Anyone imagine situation if Harvie and the Greens were in power. Wouldn't be writing all this as computers, newspapers and the like would be banned - they burn a hole in the Universe and cause the tides to rise over good old Porty and Seafield.....Talking of Seafield, best Foo and the Greens get down to the sewage works and study what they preach ......

93

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:12:26
#98 - follow the thread. Do try to keep up!
94

Foo,

13/03/2009 16:14:13
Peter - You missed my point. I'm trying to say it’s irrelevant whether you believe climate change is manmade or not (although the overwhelming majority of the scientific community has reached consensus that it is).

I'm just trying to say, keep it clean. I want to have a swim in a river without jobbies and tampons floating past. I want to eat local fish I've caught that aren't overloaded with heavy metal poisoning or are all female because of the oestrogen pollution. What’s wrong with keeping things clean?

I’m off.
95

regentlad,

Lothian 13/03/2009 16:21:48
96: Thanks for that. I'd be rather sceptical of Mr Black (Audit Scotland) He was involved in checking the books of the Holyrood fiasco - that went pear-shaped (in a big way) as well. At end of day Audit Scotland said tram project made 'business sense' they have to be held to that irrespective of the wriggling they're now doing. And further, now there's a serious dispute (of anything up to 80m pounds) I'd have thought Audit Scotland, having said the project made business sense, would have wanted to sort it out. Wonder if any proper professionals would want involved in this project...its fast become a poisoned chalice.
96

off-comed-un,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:35:27
To the climate-change deniers: where's your evidence that the current global warming isn't human-made?

We have to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions massively. Oil and gas are going to get more scarce and expensive in the future anyway. This means reductions of fossil fuel use in every sector - our homes, industry, private transport and public transport.

I'm not convinced the current tram scheme is the optimal way of reducing emissions from public transport in Edinburgh, but trams do have the merits of being able to be powered by renewable sources in the long term and not emitting NOx and particulates into the streets.

They share these merits with trolleybuses, which I think should have been considered properly as an alternative.
97

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:37:27
Just noticed the story about TIE workman cutting through a cable yesterday at Manderson Street, affecting the electricity supplies of 2,000 users.
98

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:37:47
Sorry - should have said that article is in the Scotsman.
99

Goat Boy,

13/03/2009 16:38:15
Sarah B. Enjoy.

http://www.leithdocksdevelopment.com/assets/pdf/documents/transport%20assessment/transport-assessment.pdf
100

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:41:25
(106) - in relation to the environmental benefit of the Edinburgh Tram, please see my post at 93.

I think it would save so many posters a great deal of time, effort and temper if they read what the air quality predictions in relation to the Edinburgh Tram actually are. Indeed, if they would read the evidence, then I think the argument could be put to bed once and for all.
101

Incandescent,

13/03/2009 16:42:36
scotsol - "anti-trammers"? A more appropriate name would be "pragmatic, concerned citizens". Proponents could be called "tramites".

I'm off - have a good weekend all.
102

Goat Boy,

13/03/2009 16:48:37
Sarah B: Another quick search on Google and I found these.
http://download.edinburgh.gov.uk/Leith_docks/LDDF_Internal_Consult_App4.pdf

and

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/environment/environmental_health/pollution/air_pollution/CEC_air_quality_management_areas_-_march_09

103

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:51:43
Goat Boy (99) - Gee, thanks. :)

Just had a quick scroll to the conclusions and was interested in 9.2.1 - Traffic Impacts. Seems the tram is not going to be the "fix" it was supposed to be!

Bloomin' Forth Ports have a great deal to answer for.
104

scotsol,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 16:53:36
#96 - Nice to read a post which some thought has gone into, even if you aren't entirely on-side with the trams. Anyway, time we all started our weekends.
105

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 17:02:58
Sarah, would it not be more accurate to say that much of the 'environmental benefit' was hypothetically-based on thousands of cars that would never take road at the Waterfront/Granton in the first place. All the Happy Shiny People inhabiting that City of The Future would work at GoodwinLand and would Whizz (to use a Tramorak expression) between the two; sharing their Transport of Delight with millions of tourists from the Airport who'd be going to see Britannia and the Shoaps at Ocean Terminal? But you're absolutely correct about Auditors being mainly forensic in their approach - like Economists, their skill is in analysing past events for 'what went wrong' - they can no more tell what's going to happen than a racing tipster can predict the outcome of the 3-30.
106

off-comed-un,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 17:06:37
#100, Sarah B: Not sure if you meant #96 by #106, but if so: It's a while since I read the documents re the tram air quality, but I do recall that the effect didn't seem that impressive. This is one reason I'm not convinced by the case for the tram.
107

off-comed-un,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 17:07:58
#104 scotsol: Thanks :-) Yes, roll on the weekend, and hopefully a day without a tram article I feel impelled to comment on...
108

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 17:24:28
(106) - yes, sorry. As I type, this should be comment no. 108, but the top of the page says there are 117 comments so far. Something strange happens to the numbers quite often.
109

Charles MN,

13/03/2009 17:47:20
#108

Unless I am missing something www.tramsforedinburgh.co.uk no longer has the STAG reports or the Final Business case.
110

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 17:56:11
Auld Mackay, EEN, 25 February: "discussions between the two parties are continuing on a daily basis and will be resolved in days rather than weeks and months".
So, er, Howzitgaun, Dave - Were Bilfinger Berger from Bonn not impressed with your SHOUTING?
111

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Forthy Bridge 13/03/2009 18:01:44
My understanding is that the global recession has seen a collapse in commodity prices. Steel, copper and concrete - all the things you need to build a tram line - have fallen in price. It should be costing less than forecast!
112

Charles MN,

13/03/2009 18:12:01
#111 Due to Gordon Brown's efforts it's also seen the collapse of the pound. As most of the equipment is bought from Europe and the steel and copper would be bought sometime ago it's difficult to judge what way the price would go.
113

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 19:06:55
(109) - The documents are still there. You have to go into the "the story so far" and then into "preparation and procurement".

114

Charles MN,

13/03/2009 19:23:59
#113
Oh good. Like all good comedies it's nice to be able to go back and read the best bits again.
115

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 13/03/2009 20:09:51
This forum is probably as productive as any council meeting or government session. simply talk or in this case text.
Get a civil engineer, an electrical engineer and a mechanical engineer together to run this and get on with it.
Ban all accountants from doing anything other than count the money. If we could just stop all the 'discussions' and get on with it but that would be very un-British.
I mean look at all those daft Continental Europeans like the French and Spanish. They get on with things and both have lots of light rail / tram networks, they have high sped rail [ and I mean 200mph]and we have none of that. Mind you most continental countries didn't rip up their tramways in the first place because they could see that unfettered car use with buses stuck in jams was not the way to go.
It is so frustrating being British sometimes we have most of the best ideas but then we have the most sluggish jobsworth intransigent political system which means nothing gets done. Then we get pleased with ourselves for being clever and stopping the developments meanwhile the French et al are quietly laughing as they take their Metro to the TGV station and then cover the equivalent of Edinburgh to London in 2 and a half hours. UUUUURRRRGGGHHH!!!!!
116

lulach mac gille coemgain,

13/03/2009 20:14:32
‘settled by an independent panel of industry experts’

Hey! Has nobody been reading the Scotsman comment board for the last 3+ years - the indie panel have already made the majority vote clear - No TRAMS!
117

Redbruce,

Leith 13/03/2009 21:27:41
Re Green credentials..remember Foo has told us he/she flies abroad three times a month. He/she should count the mSv !
118

GorgieRepublic,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 21:36:05
Meanwhile, we've got to put up with bloody diversions in the New Town for absolutely no reason as the work hasn't progressed on Princes Street for weeks, but we're all still being sent on the magical tour around it all. Useless sods
119

Julian.,

edinburgh 13/03/2009 22:22:21
#116

And by what means have you arrived at the conclusion that the Scotsman forums are independent?
120

tumshie heid,

13/03/2009 22:44:53
Save the enviroment, don't build a tram. It will only lie gathering stoor in a warehouse anyway.
Have you reached a settlement yet Mackay or are you just reaching for the whisky in despair?
121

MacKenzie,

Edinburgh 13/03/2009 23:00:12
Sarah B.

The Edinburgh Airport Rail Link was binned following a report in May 2007 by the Auditor General which recommended that the Scottish Government review the scheme.
Don't know if the AG has any hard and fast rules, or maybe they just don't want to get involved in the trams debacle.
122

Euan,

Edinburgh 14/03/2009 10:46:35
#125

Too true.

He's probably conked out over his desk at TIE just now with an empty bottle of Macallan by his side..

Dear oh dear Mr Mackay, just look at the hideous mess you willingly took on.. care for another bottle?
123

discoman...,

14/03/2009 10:55:41
The tram fiasco is a absolute embarracement for the people and the city of Edinburgh...

124

Euan,

Edinburgh 14/03/2009 11:21:35
#128

I totally agree.

It's 'embarrassment' by the way..
125

discoman...,

14/03/2009 11:45:50
embarrassment-- thanks lol- that's what happens when you do 3 things at once...

 

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