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Endinburgh Council
 
 
Monday, 23rd November 2009 Change Date

Critics pan plan to put Gaelic on city's road signs and stationery

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Published Date: 03 November 2009
COUNCIL chiefs have come under fire over plans to promote the Gaelic language in Edinburgh – with bilingual road signs.
The move forms part of a new strategy to increase the use of the language which fewer than one per cent of city residents can understand. Other measures include Gaelic translations on council stationery and new signs for the council HQ and City Chambers.

Critics today rounded on the plans and questioned whether such a strategy was a priority at a time when the city faces a £90 million financial black hole over the next three years.

• Should Edinburgh introduce bilingual road signs to help promote Gaelic?

Even the council itself has admitted that Gaelic is "not generally visible" to the majority of people in Edinburgh. Councillor Iain Whyte, leader of the Conservative group on the city council, said: "I would find it as foreign a language as French or German.

"You would imagine that bigger signs with more writing on them will be more confusing and the bigger the sign is the higher the cost will be. It is not a language that has any long history in Edinburgh so it does seem odd. It will be interesting to see how officers can justify this at such a difficult time for council finances."

As part of the five-year Gaelic language plan, the council said that all of its letterheads, compliment slips, e-mails, forms, documents, promotional materials and websites will include a new Gaelic strapline. New bilingual "Welcome to Edinburgh" signs will also be erected at Waverley Court and the City Chambers.

And road signs in both English and Gaelic will be rolled out in "key sites" such as Tollcross.

The council said that the signs would be updated on a "replacement basis" when required – meaning there is no specific budget for the project.

Officials said that 4,000 people in Edinburgh speak, read and/or write the language, while a further 2,000 have some understanding of Gaelic.

City leader Jenny Dawe said: "I was very interested to learn that Edinburgh is home to nearly 6,000 residents who speak or have some understanding of the Gaelic language."

But Neil Greig, director of policy at the Institute of Advanced Motorists, questioned the wisdom of the strategy. "There is no doubt that if you are putting too much information on a sign it can be confusing and there can be a safety issue.

"The main issue is not safety but making sure that the limited funds Edinburgh has for roads and transport are spent correctly."

The Scottish Government's Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 led to the formation of a group, Bòrd Na Gàidhlig, which could instruct local authorities or public bodies to draw up plans to improve use of the language.

Donald Martin, a member of the interim senior support team at Bòrd Na Gàidhlig, said: "Edinburgh was selected because of the establishment of Gaelic medium education (at Tollcross Primary School] a number of years ago. Also, there is a fairly strong group of people promoting the language in other fields, such as art and culture."




Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 November 2009 10:15 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 03/11/2009 12:05:00
It looks good,but many how many drivers will understand it,it could also cause chaos by the drivers looking to long at the sign whilst driving.
2

Xena - Warrior Princess,

03/11/2009 12:05:13
Remind me again of how much Edinburgh is in the red. As a council tax payer I object to this strongly, we cannot afford it.
3

Jennifer Tailya,

Nearly There 03/11/2009 12:05:26
Is this April first? If not, the lunatics have just taken over the asylum.
4

Skip McClendon,

03/11/2009 12:05:58
There are a lot more people who speak Polish, or Chinese, or French, Spanish or Italian in Edinburh. You probably have more people in Edinburgh who understand Latin than Gaelic. I'm all for protecting native langauges where appropriate, but persnonally I just don't see the need for Gaelic road-signs in Edinburgh.
5

Skip McClendon,

03/11/2009 12:06:40
#4

Remember to PROOF-READ before posting, Skippy!
6

Marathon,

03/11/2009 12:08:00
Excellent, there's money for keek nonsense like this, but they cannae afford to tar the roads.....
7

,

03/11/2009 12:08:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
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8

Heedbanger,

03/11/2009 12:09:47
This is a joke. The Gaelic language is a thing of the past and should remain in the past.

Folk struggle with English nowadays, never mind Gaelic.

Own goal.
9

,

03/11/2009 12:15:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
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10

Jack Daniels,

03/11/2009 12:18:22
signs up north are all also in Gaelic and it can be a little confusing !
11

Jack Daniels,

03/11/2009 12:18:54
where do they get these stats from anyway? no one has even asked me if I can speak Gaelic :-S
12

Jock MacSprog,

03/11/2009 12:20:47
Edinburgh was never a Gaelic speaking region, its lowland Scotland, so if nothing else a shocking lack of knowedge of history and culture by the council numpties. The city is just getting weirder and weirder, like some Kafka novel. There are more Urdu and Polish speakers in Edinburgh and Scotland than Gaelic yet the Gnat morons still cling to state support of this dead non language. If they really want to be accurate in Edinburgh, the sign should be in Ned Speak, its the real future of this town.
13

Foo,

03/11/2009 12:21:09
If Alex 'toad face' Salmond wants to turn the clocks back so much, why isn't he wearing a kilt to work, speaking French in parliament and saying 'Jings!' more when asked a tough question on Newsnight?
14

,

03/11/2009 12:33:46
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15

regentlad,

Lothian 03/11/2009 12:35:40
4: Good point. What about the other languages. Taking the Council's logic there should also be signs in all other languages where over 6,000 speak it. Anyone on here speak Gaelic, there's 6,000 says Dawes.
Mind you this the same councillor that says trams will be running through the streets next year. Think she's got her 'naughts' mixed up, maybe 60 of them more like.

The council have set a precedent in that notices in their bus garages are in English and Polish. Assuming this because the Polish drivers don't understand English, why then is it not Polish that should be added to the road signs !
16

korndog,

03/11/2009 12:35:45
#12 Its only a "dead non language " to lowland Anglo - scotch bampots like yourself and only because sassenachs like you fidelity their best to eradicate it since the 18th century.
17

Doggonedude,

03/11/2009 12:39:02
great idea - nonsense that it will make roads unsafe - loads of countries have bilingual signs eg Ireland. Sounds like they're only talking about four or five and if it's on a "replacement" basis then it's only when the old signs fall apart anyway. What a to do over nothing!
18

Big T,

03/11/2009 12:39:02
Great idea!

Make the wearing of kilts and having porridge for breakfast, lunch and dinner mandatory!

These people have lost the plot!!!
19

korndog,

reality 03/11/2009 12:42:30
And while I agree gaelic road signs have little place in lowland Scotland, I feel the fact there are any gaelic speakers left at all is a testament to the last real scots in this country who did'nt roll over to English and lowlands oppression.
20

Junglebhoy,

Livingston 03/11/2009 12:43:09
Not a good idea me thinks. Spend the money on more signs around schools, hospitals, etc.
21

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 12:44:17
What a load of unneccessary rubbish.

What else are they going to waste OUR money on? Egg cosies for pepper pots perhaps?
22

,

03/11/2009 12:44:19
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23

Foo,

03/11/2009 12:45:52
Why don't we put up signs in the most widely spoken, and in future terms, by far the most relevant language? Mandarin.
24

senza nome,

03/11/2009 12:53:43
Gaelic certainly isn't a dead language.A few years ago a Gaelic secondary school opened in Glasgow and it's doing very well.There are also several primary schools that teach Gaelic.Queen Street station has welcome signs in the language too.No harm in that surely.
Edinburgh may not have that many Gaelic speakers but Hibs fans should remember that the club's original motto was the Gaelic "Erin go bragh" ("Ireland forever").
25

theviewfromgorgie,

03/11/2009 12:58:34
#24 Exactly! Gaelic is on the rise again.
Tollcross Primary has a Gaelic medium section too!! As do many other schools in Scotland!!
26

Big T,

03/11/2009 12:59:14
Like the Hibs motto - Gaelic has got FA to do with the history or culture of Edinburgh!
27

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:01:27
Big T
You should have said SFA.
28

,

03/11/2009 13:04:59
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29

Rob - Honest Toun,

03/11/2009 13:07:33
The vernacular language o the Lothians an Fife is the East Central dialect o Scots. English wis politically imposed efter the Liberal Government's 1872 Education (Scotland) Act threapit that English wis tae be the only language alloued tae be spoken in aw Scottish schuils frae then on. Bairns that didnae faw in wi this law wis beltit wi the tawse an telt tae speak "properly".

If ye're no fashed wi politicians tellin ye whit wey tae speak then juist keep on yaisin English like ye've been telt tae. But if ye've got a mind o yer ain, whit wey no reclaim yer vernacular an stert yaisin Scots.

Whit wad be wrang wi a Scots sign sayin "Fair Fa Ye Tae Auld Reekie"?
30

Columba doing the Rumba,

03/11/2009 13:13:13
Jock McSprog, how do you know Gaelic was never widely spoken in the 'Lowlands', and just where exactly do the lowlands begin and end.

The fact of the matter is that Gaelic, Cumbric a and Pictish were spoken all over Southern Scotland, even in the mid to late Middle Ages, as the ethnic background of Scotland during that time would've been a patchwork of differnt ethno-linguist groups.

How else do you account for the mishmash of placenames all over the South, including and not limited to the Lothians.

The fact of the matter is around Scots (as in Gaels) were heavily colonising the so-called Anglian area of the Lothians at the time of the Norman Conquest of England until Queen Margaret persuaded her husband to put an end to it.

That's why Edinburgh and East Lothian have many Gaelic placenames, nevermind the 'English' ones of Gaelic origin.
31

Foo,

03/11/2009 13:13:20
#29

Quite frankly, I embarrassed by people who speak like that. It's even worse written down.
32

Jock MacSprog,

03/11/2009 13:13:25
29,,, your pathetic attempt to speak the non language of so called Scots came across as exactly what scots is, ie phonetically pronounced bad English. Its just the way that ingnorant peasant bumpkins in Scotland mispronounced English, not a language. Language experts have long held that its not a language as it has no proper structure, grammar, etc. In any case, how does speaking dead regional dialects help the children of a very troubled regional economy compete in a fast changing global marketplace ????
33

Jock MacSprog,

03/11/2009 13:16:19
30, how does any of this questionable and subjective history lesson help Scotland today ?? Every region around the world has its history, why is it only Scotland that seems to wallow in it and self consciously navel gaze ??? I dont see Texans longing to return to mexico or people in Maine wish they were back in Canada or Britain, whats the POINT !!!
34

Just another day,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:18:44
I used to drive a lot around the Inverness/Black Isle area in my last job. I actually found it quite confusing and it could be quite dangerous with all the road signs up there in English and Gaelic.
35

Foo,

03/11/2009 13:19:30
#33

Yes, well said.
36

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:22:23
#33
Aye YER right there
37

dba,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:25:48
WHAT COMPLETE AND UTTER NONSENSE...the City is facing over 245 MILLION POUNDS deficit over the next few years and'someone' in the SNP administration has 'decided' to spend funds on signs in GAELIC.

Acoording to OFFICIAL figures, the SNP Scottish Goverment has spent MILLIONS of pounds on the promotion of GAELIC. According to OFFICIAL figures BBC Scotland has spent MILLIONS of pounds on Gaelic broadcasting and television to the extent there is even a GAELIC TELEVISION CHANNEL.

And yet according to OFFICIAL figures LESS THAN 60,000 of Scotland's 5.1 MILLION population speak or comprehend GAELIC.

Do NOT get me wrong, as a Scot I realise the need to try and preserve the ancient language of the North and West of the Nation...BUT WHERE ON EARTH IS OUR SENSE OF PROPORTION...preserve - YES, promote - FINE but in the Lowlands of the Nation this is a TOTAL WASTE OF CASH!
38

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:29:20
This is a complete waste of money.

NO!
39

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:29:34
#37
So your upset then?
Read the article, they will replace old signs eventually.
40

Alangil,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:33:02
What about those who live in Edinburgh and speak, Chinese, Polish, French, Italian, etc.? This is a nonsense and the established official language in Scotland is English, like it or lump it. When will the principles of democracy prevail (rather than this ridiculous polital correctness), in that the majority rules, not the minority!
41

black custard,

03/11/2009 13:34:08
Gaelic for areas where it's historically been spoken amd some people still speak it - fair enough.

Gaelic on Edinburgh signs is f***ing laughable.

It would be like the city of Lille getting Flemish signs in.

Pretentious and stupid. But marginally less idiotic than the you know whats.
42

RabIT,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:38:56
If it's just to change a bit of text next time the signs/documentation are renewed then don't see any problem with this.
It wont cost much and will give a bit more interest to some part of the city
43

RabIT,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:43:22
#40

Its not about how many people speak the language in Edinburgh, it's about maintaining and promoting an old Scottish language in the Scottish capital.

What's the problem with that?
44

Foo,

03/11/2009 13:46:54
#43

Because it's expensive and we're skint.

It also has no relevance to Edinburgh, there's nobody even speaks it and it's confusing.
45

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 13:52:33
Idiotic beyond redemption. There are probably more people in Ediburgh who speak Klingon than there are who speak Gaelic.
46

RabIT,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 14:01:22
#43

So a Scottish language has no relevence to the Scottish capital???? I know it's not historically been spoken here but as the Scottish capital we are representing the whole of the country.

Explain to me how updating text when replacing existing signs/documentation is expensive?


47

Marian,

03/11/2009 14:03:21
Whilst I acknowledge that Scots Gaelic was a language spoken a long time ago in this part of Scotland it would appear to be far more appropriate for the signs to have the more recent everyday language of the "thrie estates" of Scotland, namely the more widely used Scots language, on the signs in Edinburgh than Scots Gaelic!
48

Sedov,

03/11/2009 14:08:55
As an Edinburgh citizen born and brought up in Craigmillar - I can honestly tell you that there is almost zero interest in Gaelic in the housing estates of Edinburgh and up to a few years ago Gaelic was almost unheard of.

It is not our language, never will be, never, never not even on a road sign. If the Gaels want it then leave it to them.

Its so called culture by stealth, Gaelic is not the culture of the working man in Edinburgh and never, never will be- its the idiotic tartan shortbread Nationalist who want to bring this nonsense into Edinburgh - STOP NOW!... (SCREAM!!)
49

,

03/11/2009 14:09:09
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50

Noodle doodle,

03/11/2009 14:14:23
#43 It's not a scottish language, it's a gaelic language

If you're going to include any language once spoken on scottish soil then lets get the norse and welsh signs up too. Oh yeah, and the latin. All of which were spoken in this neck of the woods for longer than gaelic. The lowlands were tied in to the north of england as part of the old north (yr hen ogledd) far more and for far longer than they ever came under the influence of the gaels - essentially the romans set a barrier at the antonine wall 2000 years ago that barely changed. This is just the latest great idea from the perthshire national party.
51

Mr. Borat Sagdiyev,

Kuzcek, Kazakhstan 03/11/2009 14:25:00
Heedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrum? Heedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrum! Heedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrumheedrumhodrum? Heedarhum hodahrum?

Translation from Gaelic: Why not spend the money fixing the roads than duplicating road signs in Heedrum Hodrum?
52

Foo,

03/11/2009 14:25:05
#46

Forgetting the fact that the signs will have to be physically larger and require more graphics added which will not come cheap, the council state that it will be part of a 5 year plan, then go on to say that they will be replaced on a "replacement basis".

Signs last a lot longer than 5 years. What's the criteria for "replacement basis"? No gaelic writing?
53

black custard,

03/11/2009 14:25:13
#49


0110011001110101011000110110101100100000011101000110100001100101001000000111010001110010011000010110110101110011
54

black custard,

03/11/2009 14:26:28


WAIT A MINUTE it's a plot.

Gaelic repels vampires. It's a ruse to get rid of Jenny 'Nosferatu' Dawe.
55

Mikey,

Carstairs Junction 03/11/2009 14:28:15
There's nothing like Gaelic to stir up the sons of Sassunn! The majority of you caan hardly speak English so how could anyone hope to get you to understand Gaelic!

Let's try a wee poll, how many of speak more than one language? You'll probably lie, but who cares!

The Irish have bi-ligual roadsigns all over the country and Irish only in the Gaeltachd, but there again, the Irish are FAR more outward and intelligent than you lot of unionist empire builders!
56

Gaidhealtachd,

03/11/2009 14:30:58
#50 No, it is a Scottish language. A language *of* Scotland.

I think you need to take a closer look at your history of languages. Your comment about latin is frankly laughable.

Couple of other points to the thread as a whole:

- Gaelic isn't a dead language, granted it's not as widespread as it was once but like it or not it is still very much alive.

- There is no evidence to suggest that bilingual signs are dangerous. There are no recorded accidents that have occurred due to the signs. Bilingual signage is used across Europe without any trouble. I don't see what makes us any different in Scotland.

Edinburgh has never been part of a Gaelic heartland as far as I am aware, but it was most definitely spoken in the capital. The language of the old parliament was Gaelic for starters. I think that it is only fitting that OUR capital city recognises the existence of Gaelic. Likewise I would like to see recognition and support given to Scots, Doric, Orcadian etc.
57

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 14:33:29
Good to see some recognition for a language with a growing number of speakers here in Edinburgh and which was once widely spoken across the Lothians. Just a shame it's taken so long and in that time we've allowed such ignorant views as some of those shown above to prosper.

With regard to the EEN, the graphic attached to this article tells us all we need to know about the quality of journalism they now espouse. How did the EEN get to such a drastically low point?
58

black custard,

03/11/2009 14:39:34
#56

Surely there are better ways to recognise the existence of a language fewer than 1% of Edinburgh's populace speaks than buy pasting it all over road signs?

Seriously - how many people would read the Gaelic bit cos they couldn't understand the English bit? And vice-versa?

The answer to that question only leads to the answer that Gaelic would be on these signs for decorative purposes. Not an outward looking or intelligent idea at all.

You obviously are passionate about Gaelic, and that's great. But Gaelic has its place, and its place is not on road signs in central Scotland. End of story.
59

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 14:41:27
56. Good points, especially at the end there. Edinburgh is not just for those of us who live here. We benefit from being the capital - it brings in people from around the country, it gives a reason for many of the state institutions to be based here and it's also a reason many tourists come here. There are costs involved, but overall I'm sure most folk here would wish to remain the capital. Well one of the responsibilities of a capital is to serve not just its own residents, but the whole country, and that means parts of Scotland some view as having a different linguistic and cultural heritage.
60

dyon gollins's back,

Den Haag 03/11/2009 14:47:32
Of course Gaelic should be recognised in the capital city - I've no problem with this idea at all provided the signs are bilingual; happens all over the place and also in Belgium, by the way.
61

Tynietiger,

03/11/2009 14:48:42
Edinburgh is a derivation of the Gaelic Dunedin so why shouldn't we have some Gaelic signs to remind tourists and ignorant residents of our history.
62

black custard,

03/11/2009 14:51:06
London is a derivation of Londinium so why notta putta alla de signs-a in Italiano?

Because there's no need for it.

Same with Edinburgh. Even if 20% of Edinburgh spoke Gaelic there still wouldn't be any actual need for it.

63

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 14:52:15
#58. The area they refer to is around the Gaelic medium primary school unit (and Gaelic medium nursery as well?). An area where there are also many Gaelic evening classes as well. And maybe a Gaelic speakers forming a giher percentage of the popeulation here due to the school? I think this might be fair enough. The other example is at the main entrance points to the city. Surely these are as much (if not more so) for the benefit of non-Edinburgh residents coming here. I don't think anyone is talking about road signs routinely becoming bilingual.
64

Gaidhealtachd,

03/11/2009 14:55:47
62 - If 20% of Edinburgh residents spoke Gaelic then yes there would be a clear need for it. You can't just pick and choose who you want to supply services too.
65

black custard,

03/11/2009 14:56:36
#63

Ok well if that's all it is, fair enough. But if we want the signs to represent the cultural mix of certain areas eg Tollcross, then there would need to be Chinese character signage as well. Also areas of Leith would need Polski signage.

66

James (1),

03/11/2009 14:57:46
I think Latin should be used on all the signs. The reason for this is that relatively few people can read latin and the majority don't want to.
The only thing this idea has going for it is to waste public money and as someone who wants to work for the council squandering public money I think this is yet another way of achieving it.
Could we also not get the council to set up and fund a Gaelic local tv service? Pay per view. Can you imagine the money they will make out of this venture? Licence to print money would describe it.
67

black custard,

03/11/2009 15:01:28
#64

Let me be clear about this: if 20% of Edinburgh spoke Gaelic as their first language, bilingual signage would be welcomed. What I am saying is that it wouldn't be entirely necessary, since the 20% would also be fluent in English.

There are areas of Bradford with thousands of residents who speak Urdu and Punjabi, but there ain't no bilingual signage. Cos there ain't no need.
68

Rob - Honest Toun,

03/11/2009 15:02:31
#56 Extrack o an act o the Scots pairlament o 1397:-

"It is statutit and ordanyt with assent of the thre communatez thar beand that ilke schiref of the kynrike sal publy ger crye that na man rydand or gangande in the contre lede ma persons with hym bot thai that he wil mak ful payment for. Ande that na man use sik destruccons slachtir reif na bryning in tyme tocum under payn of tynsale of life and guds."
69

Aesop,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 15:02:58
Hard to believe there are so many self-hating Scots. I guess it takes 300 years of enforced union to breed such a contempt for your own country's languages, history and culture.
70

James (1),

03/11/2009 15:05:23
#69 Not just self hating, we hate others as well!
71

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 15:06:36
#65. Firstly, we're mostly seeing the EEN trying to stir up a bit of a non story. But the principle should be sound, the services the council offer should reflect the needs of the population. Some want to see a bit more consideration of Gaelic. Many services are already provided in various other languages. If the Polish community remain in Leith etc long term then more provisions will need to be made for them. For the majority using English, noone is talking about taking away their road signs or their ability to do their business in English. That just leaves the folk that want English and no other language to be accepted - I'd rather these people were not involved in deciding what's best for our communities.
72

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 15:07:53
#67. Yes and social cohesion is at an all time high in Bradford eh!
73

black custard,

03/11/2009 15:11:22
#67

Well, I don't live there but I believe the BNP have caused a lot of trouble.

Bi-lingual road signs is the least of their concerns.
74

black custard,

03/11/2009 15:11:42
sorry that was for #72
75

James (1),

03/11/2009 15:14:57
Could we not just get the Gaelic speaking/reading residents of Edinburgh to pay for the signs? I am sure they will gladly pay to have the signs put into their language.
The language is slowly going to join Latin. Why put a sign up that will to all intents and purposes be ignored. You would be better putting portraits under the English writing. That way you get to see something nice instead of something that looks like the tiles you have at the start of a game of scrabble.
76

black custard,

03/11/2009 15:20:56
#71

Interesting how there are a lot of Polish signs in Edinburgh, mainly cafe and shop signage.

Interesting how they get their own stuff done on their own terms, how they energetically start businesses and contribute to the economy.

Interesting that none of this has anything to do with local government money and low-level political debates on newspaper website threads.

Seriously - if loads of Gaelic speakers came to Edinburgh and opened cafes and shops and played music in bars etc. and really gave their language and culture to the city, I'd say fair do's.

But all I hear is slightly threatening arguments about how we need bilingual signs because hundreds of years ago there were some Gaelic speakers.

77

Xena - Warrior Princess,

03/11/2009 15:21:30
#75 Tee Hee - completely agree.
78

Gaidhealtachd,

03/11/2009 15:28:54
67: First of all Urdu, Mandarin, Polish are not indigenous (not keen on that word, can’t think of anything better for now!) languages of the UK so there is no real requirement for bilingual signage in those languages. Secondly these languages are already well supported. They have hundreds of thousands of speakers, plenty of support in their country and are nowhere near a point where they are threatened with dying out.
79

The Busman,

03/11/2009 15:32:58
What's the Gaelic for "Tram" then?
80

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 15:34:15
#73. Never said it would solve anything, just responding to your point that everything was just fine as it is there.

#75. On a similar note then, I'll put my council tax towards Gaelic language services so long as none of it goes to English language services. Everybody complains about paying for services they don't use and this is no different.

#76. Yes, good point. I think you've got to look at the demographics though, the Gaelic speakers in Edinburgh and coming to Edinburgh are much less likely to start these sorts of businesses.

I think there's also been a history of hostility to Gaelic that is only really disappeared in the last few years. You just need to look at some of the comments on this board to see what some people think of it. Perhaps the same people who scrawl Poles go home at bus stops.

Anyway, just because the Gaelic speakers are taking a different route doesn't mean it's wrong. And I think the scale of these proposals really are in keeping with the scale of the Gaelic speaking population. I don't think English speakers have anything to worry about when it comes to language superiority in Edinburgh!
81

black custard,

03/11/2009 15:45:35
#80

Good responses - although I'm a bit unsure what you mean about "English language services" provided by local authorities.

I'm very interested in your point about 'hostility' to gaelic, and how it's only recently begun to disappear.

In Glasgow "heuchter teuchter" was a term referring to people who spoke Gaelic. Then it referred to anyone in highland dress. And now it has become a blanket term for anyone who isn't from Glasgow and surrounding areas. It's now spelt "chookta" and I last heard it used to describe people from Fife.

No hostility to Gaelic from me, but I do get the impression a lot of people are into it for reasons other than those of communication.
82

black custard,

03/11/2009 15:48:31
Interesting debate folks, and encouraging to see it didn't end up being a typical EEN pie fight.

Bye for now.
83

Gaidhealtachd,

03/11/2009 15:49:58
81 - It's spelled 'teuchter'.


And there are no words to describe people from Fife :o)
84

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 15:59:11
#81. #81. By English language services, I mean those services that are carried out in English... English road signs etc. All the services we take for granted. I can't opt out of paying for these (and of course wouldn't want to). However, if you look at it in purely monetary terms, services that are carried out in English (often English only) take the majority of funding. On the other hand, if you look at the amount spent on services supplied through languages other than English, you're talking about a tiny amount. Just because someone doesn't use the Gaelic language services themselves, or thinks that only a small minority do, doesn't mean that they shouldn't contribute to them because others (some of whom are Gaelic speakers) may well contribute to services that they do use. It's the whole concept of central taxation. All though of course there will always be some against it, topics like this seem to bring out more than usual.
85

chasbaba,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 16:00:50
It is likely less than one in ten thousand people in edinburgh can speak this language and less than in in the entire population of this city would actively use it in the street, slangeyva
86

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 16:04:53
#81 again. With regard to hostility, I don't think this is something that really exists now. But there is certainly a legacy of what went on in the past. This leads people to be a lot less open to speaking Gaelic in public and a lot less proactive in the kind of ways we see the Poles using their language.

As for motivation, well there's all sorts. There will be nationalist for it for and Unionists against. I don't think the opinions of these people are good reasons to accept or reject any proposal. We should look at it on its own merits. I don't think anyone is going to become a flag waving blue face paint wearing nationalist just because of a few words of Gaelic on a welcome to Edinburgh sign!
87

Foo,

03/11/2009 16:25:25
56 Gaidhealtachd

"The language of the old parliament was Gaelic for starters."

French was also a standard language for the previous Scottish parliament as well as English.

You say as a capital we should represent all Scotland. Fair enough. But you don't see London writing its road signs in Urdu because 1% of the population speaks it.

"Urdu, Mandarin, Polish are not indigenous" you say. I think you are living in the past making statements like that. We live in a multi-cultural society these days. It would be a fair argument if you could show the Gaelic had been the norm and was being pushed out, but it's not, it's be imposed.

88

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 16:27:49
As there are more computer programmers here than there are speakers of the Gaelic, can't we have all the road signs subtitled in FORTRAN?
89

Gaidhealtachd,

03/11/2009 16:34:20
I agree, we live in a multi cultural society and I fully embrace that.

Gaelic was the norm, spoken throughout a large proportion of Scotland from Caithness to the tip of Argyll and covering Stirlingshire, Perth and Speyside in towards Aberdeen. (Yes believe it or not there was Aberdeenshire Gaelic!)

I don't believe Gaelic is being imposed. No-one is forcing you to learn the language and you are not exempt from anything for not being a Gaelic speaker.



90

James (1),

03/11/2009 16:37:21
I would be extremely surprised if there is ANY person in Edinburgh who can only read Gaelic and not English.
So why waste, yes I mean waste, money putting on a sign a language that is not required?
(Has the council won Euromillions and not told anyone?)
The purpose of a sign is to tell the reader where they are.
How many people will have looked at the photograph in the EN and totally ignored what is written in a foreign language on the lower half?
91

,

03/11/2009 16:42:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
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92

,

03/11/2009 16:48:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
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93

Noodle doodle,

03/11/2009 16:56:22
#91, not surprising wales doesn't have many gaelic speakers, they do have about 25% welsh speakers though

And to my knowledge, no-one in Cumbria is planning to stick up bi-lingual signs with welsh on them around Carlisle, Penrith etc because those placenames are derived from Welsh, which is pretty much the equivalent of what gaelic means to edinburgh...
94

fiofach,

03/11/2009 17:03:40
The EN'S photographic mock-up of the road-sign contains a grammatical error in the Gaelic !!
95

Foo,

03/11/2009 17:15:28
Out of curiosity, is there anyoneon this thread that can speak, read and write Gaelic?

* Not that this thread is representative of anything, eh anti-trammies ;O)
96

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 17:17:49
393. Maybe the equivalent of what Gaelic means to you, but you don't speak for Edinburgh (thankfully).
97

jambali,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 17:24:07
56 - Gaelic is not indigenous either. Or are you choosing when indigenous starts???
98

Merouane,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 17:32:19
97. The Gaelic languages may have their origins elsewhere, but modern Scottish Gaelic was formed in Scotland. Or are you defining a language by their fundamental root (Indo-European and beyond...)?
99

Incandescent,

03/11/2009 17:36:14
I'm afraid the suggestion is simply...
100

Incandescent,

03/11/2009 17:36:22
Poppycock!
101

Ian Ross,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 17:37:25
To think that council tax payers pay the bampots that come up with stupid ideas like this. Edinburgh is part of the Lowlands of Scotland, not the highlands. Gaelic has NEVER been the language of Scotland, it is only spoken and read by a small minority of people in this country.This idea (like the trams ought to have been) should be binned. Ther is nothing like spending other folks money.
102

eDUCATIon,

03/11/2009 17:39:37


Can we not issue free sat navs to people from the Outer Hebrides?

Does anyone know if Tom-Tom, Garmin do Gaelic speaking units?
103

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 18:07:38
#56 reckons: "There is no evidence to suggest that bilingual signs are dangerous"

Ach weel. Jane it is who tells me where to go. She disnae understand the Gaelic and she landed me in a pond.
104

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 18:09:46
Speak Gaelic? Looking at some of the replies here, it'll take all they've got to get the populace to speak English.
105

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 18:14:06
#76: "But all I hear is slightly threatening arguments about how we need bilingual signs because hundreds of years ago there were some Gaelic speakers"

Aha! Perhaps our enlightened Council is simply trying to get ready for the new market in time-travel tourism.

Maybe they know something we don't...
106

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 18:15:44
On the other hand. We could just skip the Gaelic signs. Then when time-travel tourism kicks off, the Council could just send someone back in time to convert all the signs to include Gaelic, and we'd still have been ready beforehand.
107

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 18:18:05
Though it could be that this has already happened (or do I mean it is already going to happen?) and someone on the Council is in fact a time-traveler from the future. Possibly he came back on a tram travelling at 88mph?
108

James (1),

03/11/2009 18:20:01
#102 no, Tom Tom and Garmin are in the business of selling items people actually want. There is as muck call for Gaelic speaking sat navs as there is the demand for those same items to speak Klingon. Unlike the council if they squandered money those companies would quickly go out of business.
What the council do is come up with stupid ideas then use our money to fund it.
The automatic barriers in George Street! Now that was money wasted.
109

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 18:21:34
Though if the trams are running where he came from, that's the very far future. The minimum price of alcohol is likely so high by then that he's really come back to stock up on beer.
110

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

03/11/2009 18:23:45
#102: What I really want is a sat-nav that speaks like Hal9000 from Space Odyssey.

"Please return to the planet..."
111

Scottish Folk Arts Group,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 18:27:11
Well done, Edinburgh City Council, for supporting one of our national languages in the nation's capital city!

112

Iain Mac,

03/11/2009 18:33:51
Well done Comhairle Dhun Eideann. Gaelic is still a living language in Dun Eideann - even local punks Oi Polloi sing in it.

Many of Edinburgh's placenames are Gaelic - testament to Gaelic speaking communities that lived around 900 to 1000AD - such as Calton, Craigmillar, Craigour, Craigentinny, Torphichen, Corstorphine, Gilmerton and further afield such as Balerno, Dalmeny, Drem, Dunbar and Gullane. Even Temple in Midlothian used to be called 'Baile nan Trodach' in old records in a reference to the Knights Templar.

Plus, a growing number of Edinburgh's school kids speak Gaelic. Keep it up. It's OUR language too.
113

Iain Mac,

03/11/2009 18:36:22
Funny how all the Kilroy-Silks here will decry promoting Gaelic on one hand but complain about 'immigrants' destroying our culture!!!

Almost all of Scottish iconography is Gaelic based. Gaelic was producing classical poetry when English was still the new tongue of German immigrants. Maybe more people need to learn, at least a little, to understand it's place in Scottish culture.
114

David Kilpatrick,

Kelso 03/11/2009 18:39:50
Street names in Ireland with dual language are entirely appropriate (and charming - make great tourism photos). It's educational to see common names like High Street, Church Lane, Steep Hill or whatever with their translation. But Edinburgh street names are often connected with the people and past of the city, and it would be a mockery to translate them, especially when enough tourists probably have no idea what the Scots words used in the names mean - putting English translations might be more useful!

Or, spend some money on interpretation signs to put below street names, with a sentence on the history or explanation of the name.

As for direction signs (not street names) that would be irresponsible. In Ireland it is very distracting for visitors who drive, occasionally confusing because the English and Irish names for some places are not similar.

It is already a bit of a joke driving over Carter Bar and being confronted with a Gaelic welcome, one in old Cymric might have been more appropriate for the eastern Borders.

I resd the story because a folk-scene contact tried to rally support for Gaelic. Liking Scots music and tradition does not also mean supporting the spread of unrealistic official emphasis on Gaelic in regions where it has no currency.
115

eDUCATIon,

03/11/2009 18:40:58


111 + 112

Do you ever look forward into the future?

I mean, theres cack all you can do about whats happened before now.......go on, you can do it, leave the past behind and embrace tomorrow.
116

Iain Mac,

03/11/2009 18:41:19
Councillor Iain Whyte, leader of the Conservative group on the city council, said: "I would find it as foreign a language as French or German.

Hey, i thought 'conservatives' supported 'conserving' our culture. Iain (a Gaelic name!) sounds like a total ignoramus. No wonder the Tories' support is so low.
117

Iain Mac,

03/11/2009 18:42:02
#155- the future starts now. I speak Gaelic, my kids do... Your point is?
118

Iain Mac,

03/11/2009 18:42:56
#115 - sorry but... What is your point? I speak Gaelic now, i recognise it in my local landscape - it ISN'T foreign.
119

regentlad,

Lothian 03/11/2009 18:51:30
95: Foo, how many times do you need told there are few anti-trammies.

What council tax payers are 'anti' about is this apology for a Council wasting millions of our money on a tram project not needed and now on gaelic nonsense not required, and at same time going around shutting down our schools.

120

David Kilpatrick,

Kelso 03/11/2009 18:56:58
#116 - I thought Iain was Scots, Eoin Gaelic, Ian English(ish), Jan Polish, Yan Breton, and countless other variations of the same name both in spelling/accents and exact pronunciation were still - really just the same name?
121

Noodle doodle,

03/11/2009 18:58:38
It is foreign.

It's the imposition of scottish culture as being exclusively highland culture, doubtless by someone who's watched braveheart one too many times.
122

eDUCATIon,

03/11/2009 19:03:58
118

No point at all. Just bored here and on the wind up. Im off out now to watch the Champions League in the finest Queens English.
123

Mrs Syrah,

USA 03/11/2009 19:08:45
Oh my god, I can't believe what I'm reading here! Gaelic signs in EDINBURGH!! Pah. They wasted loads of money in the Highlands doing this and all it caused was dangerous roads and anger. They speak it on the islands and some random folk speak it, they also speak english and can read the signs just fine. We can protect gaelic in other ways, the majority of schools don't even teach it so maybe that should change. Edinburgh simply can't afford it and should maybe look into fixing the bin crisis and tram shambles first.
124

Sgithman,

Ross-shire 03/11/2009 19:29:53
What a lot of hot air over nothing. If you actually read this piece you will see that the City of Edinburgh Council is publishing a plan for consultation under an Act of the Scottish Parliament (the law of the land by the way) that was supported by all parties at Holyrood.

I suspect nobody is saying that there WILL be signs and certainly not all over the city. Also, they will only go up when old ones need replaced so the cost, as proven here in the Highlands, is minimal.

To suggest that Gaelic was never spoken in Edinburgh is ludicrous, and people should take a look at the placenames that surround them if they think otherwise.
125

RabIT,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 19:34:51
#52
Jeez, not a sign costing expert but come on, there are 1000s of them in the city so compared to some things the council spend money on, updating a handful over 5 years will be funded from the petty cash box. Go get real sign cost figures if you disagree.

The idea is not to provide signs for the purpose of gaelic speakers - if that were the case the Polish etc argument would stand.

The purpose of this is to promote and preserve the minority Scottish language in the same way the BBC are doing. Not sure why anyone is against this.

The added bonus for Edinburgh is it will add to the historic Scottish feel that it already has, which so many tourists and locals alike love
126

keit011,

03/11/2009 19:55:13
i am all for us having our own parliament but it does seem to be costing us a lot of money every time a msp gets the urge to spend some petty cash they seem to have the daftest ideas why don't they concentrate on schools hospitals and the elderly then if there's some cash left over get the bins emptied and streets cleaned .i don't think half the msps have a clue really its like most of them have been thrown in at the deep end and struggle
127

Wheeler Dealer,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 19:56:28
The welsh language went from non existent to completely dominating most aspects of life in Walesstarting in the 1970s in terms of compulsory teaching in schools, bilingual communications from Govt local and national, job interviews conducted in welsh and so on and yet only 5% of the population understands the language, so much concentration on such a minority at the expense of the majority which seems unfair, costly and unnecessary. If the City Council wants to support the indigenous languages of Scotland then the road signs need to include Doric, Old Scots, punjabi, chinese and (if the census is to be believed) Klingon,which I understand Edna Dawe is fluent?
128

radge dug,

03/11/2009 19:59:22
Sounds good to me. Gaelic is still a living language, even in Edinburgh and it has a historical legacy here. Plus, it gives our city a more 'Scottish' feel - good for tourists and supports our oldest tongue. All, for a minimal cost. Signs have to be replaced - putting a few words of Gaelic on them costs next to nothing.

If the Welsh, Irish, Basques, Belgians, Swiss and Finnish can do it, why can't we. Road accidents? Are ou serious. Has anyone got any hard evidence from those countries i've mentioned that they have more road accidents due to bi or tri lingual signs?!!!
129

Hugh,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 20:02:23
It's a nonsense even in the North West, where English names such as Broadford have been artificially translated into Gaelic. However as the City Council is hell bent on self-destruction, who are we to stand in their way?
130

Calum Crubag,

03/11/2009 20:41:01
#129 - really Hugh. I think you'll find that 'An t-Ath Leathann' predates the coming of English to Skye. Now, go and speak to the auld folk who had Gaelic beaten out of them.

Well done Edinburgh cooncil. It might remind some folk that Edinburgh isn't an annexe of Cambridge.
131

madrab,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 20:42:05
Far more people speak French, German or Spanish.

At a time where the council are closing schools, community centres and removing services to the vulnerable due to lack of funds, they should not be wasting money on a jolly like this.

I can understand it up the West Coast, where the Lord of the Isles turned their backs on Scotland in favour of the English, but this serves no purpose here.
132

hafpipe,

03/11/2009 21:10:06
How can you say there's little history of Gaelic in Edinburgh? How can you call what is Scotland's language 'obscure'??? If you don't accept Gaelic as our language then you lose a lot of what makes Scotland's culture, history and soul. Look at the facts. Don't go on your feelings alone or on your prejudices. There are people who regardless of how many positive facts come out regarding Gaelic, will still fight tooth and nail to destroy what is one of the most poetic languages around. Gaelic once covered almost the whole of Scotland (including Edinburgh, Borders and Caithness.....yes Caithness too!) and through the Gaelic names that were left behind, there were also stories and history that ran hand in hand. Try the language before you kill it!
133

Foo,

03/11/2009 21:18:12
#132

I agree with everything you say, and I think we should always remember Gaelic fondly, and perhaps even teach it. But whilst we are in dire financial straits with massive social problems and a crumbling transport system, why are we spending money on gaelic roadsigns when nobody, and you have to admit, nobody speaks the language in Edinburgh.
134

,

03/11/2009 21:18:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
135

hafpipe,

03/11/2009 21:26:19
Sorry #133, there are a number of people who speak it in Edinburgh. Infact, did I hear that there's a Gaelic unit at one of the Edinburgh schools? A friend of mine wanted to put his kids there (even though he hasn't got the Gaelic himself) but he lived too far out of town to make it possible.

I agree with the tram's mess, but replacing signs as they go out of use anyway won't break the bank!
136

Foo,

03/11/2009 21:32:21
#135 Well we're talking about 4,000 speakers and 2000 with 'some understanding'; that's 6000 people in a city of 450000; or 1.3% of the city population. Is it really fair to pander to such a minority?

Also, I'd say the trams are one of the better initiatives CEC have implemented. Certainly better than stamping a dead language over all the road signs!
137

RdeMeij,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 21:39:45
I totally support Edinburgh City Council (and that is maybe a first). Gaelic whether you like it or not is one of the indigenous languages in Scotland. The capital of this country should give the example. I do not think this would cost that much money. The council also spends money on having leaflets translated into Hindi, Urdu, Chinese and even Polish now, so why not Gaelic ? Besides I am sure the council spends much more money on accommodation and social care for neds !
138

Foo,

03/11/2009 21:44:17
137

Hindi, Urdu, Chinese and Polish all have something in common; people living in the city speak it.

ps. Indigenous language? What's the cut off point for being classed indigenous? 1000 years? 100 years?
139

hafpipe,

03/11/2009 21:47:27
Do I look dead? I'm still breathing #136! Gaelic is a part of Scotland's history, culture, soul, present and future. If you disregard the place names and folklore and history of the Gaelic, then you move into the future not really knowing where your country has come from.

For years it was beaten into Scots that Gaelic was for the poor and back trodden poorly educated people, and that if we wanted to make ourselves big into the new world we needed to ditch it. But all it did was to push Scots further away from who they were, their character and purpose. Yes there were other factors too, but this one contributed.

Other countries speak 2,3,4 languages and because of this their educated kids come out of their schools better off than ours. Fact; bilingual schools improve children's education and results, and if it's their own language they're learning at the same time then they'll also understand the history that surrounds them in the place names.
140

Gordon (the real McCoy),

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 21:55:41
So, who is it that sits in the dark vaults of Edinburgh Chambers and comes up with such wisdom? I bet a pound tae a tanner it's the same folks that gave us the trammies ! I've just moved back from living in the US for a long time and I can tell you that we are so fortunate to live in such a beautiful place with so much to offer. I'm especially for keeping the Scottish culture alive as being Scottish in the US was my greatest asset, but I don't think putting a language as well as English on the road signs is too smart. Never mind the expense, I would say it's plain dangerous. How would it be if we were driving in France and the signs had two different languages? How confusing would that be? Councillor Iain Whyte, leader of the Conservative group on the city council, said: "I would find it as foreign a language as French or German." Well, I would disagree! Gaelic is MUCH more difficult to comprehend. In my recording studio in Dallas, I recorded more than 20 languages and I would emphatically say that I could almost figure out most European based languages, just by looking at the words, but I could never figure out Gaelic as the letters are nowhere close to representing the sounds.
Come on Edinburgh Council, can you not come up with more sense instead of nonsense?

Gordon Nicol
141

emperor tomato ketchup,

03/11/2009 21:55:59
They're going to have Gaelic nights at The Rhona but there will be subtitling for all you Anglophone poofs
142

Foo,

03/11/2009 21:57:52
#139

I agree. I completely agree. I can speak two languages myself, I understand the benefits.

However the correct course of action is to immediately begin teaching primary school children Gaelic and progress from that point, not print all of the capital city's road signs in a language only 4000 can fluently understand.
143

Ecto,

03/11/2009 22:04:35
Over 140 posts and not one in Garlic, surely that says it all. Oh and Garlic for Tram is most likely ......eh....tram.
The weslh language aparently was the language of fife and lothian miners who moved to the valleys to mine coal, perhaps we could just adopt that and save money, I am sure the Welsh have a few spare signs.
144

emperor tomato ketchup,

03/11/2009 22:11:14
#142

None in Gaelic, but 2 in binary coding.

Kids these days, eh.
145

emperor tomato ketchup,

03/11/2009 22:15:22
Other languages spoken at the Rhona will be:

Swahili
Urban Demotic Kirkcaldian
1890s Cockney Diabetic Tourette syndrome
Whale noises
Private School Tough Guy dialect
Pidgin LOLnetSpeak v.3

And Greek with a stammer
146

radge dug,

03/11/2009 22:16:06
Ecto #143- feuch seo ma-tha. Ith mo chac, amadan.
147

Xile,

03/11/2009 23:00:57
In the early 70s I was a member of the Edinburgh University Highland Society, whose aim was to promote gaelic culture.

Of our 20-odd members, only one spoke gaelic. She came, if I remember correctly, from Tunbridge Wells.

Let's face reality - this is a dead language. The only purpose of language is to communicate, and there is no-one - repeat NO-ONE - who speaks gaelic who does not also speak English. These signs therefore are totally unnecessary.

148

Calum MacNéill,

Dun Éideann 03/11/2009 23:13:00
It should not surprise readers to hear Anglophone so-called 'Scots' from Edinburgh (who are, in cultural term, descendants of the 'Inglis' in the north of Britain) express their cultural antipathy to Gaelic.

Scotophone (ie, Gaelic) culture and Anglophone culture were for centuries closely closely associated with opposing power blocks in Scotland. The Anglophone power block ultimately beat down Gaelic culture while adopting English from the south of England as their official tongue for law and education, etc, so one should not expect them to accept the modern era of equal rights for ethnic groups (especially not the Scottish ethnic group) with open arms.

The fact is that the country is named after the Gaels, as the Latin word 'Scotus' referred to Gaels, not the 'Inglis' of the Lothians etc and their descendants. The Gaelic word 'mac' stereotypically marks a Scottish surname.

Gaelic speakers in Edinburgh, and all of Gaelic descent in Edinburgh, pay their taxes like everyone else. If they want Edinburgh city council to promote their Scottish language and culture in the capital of the country named after them, they have the right to do so.

If Anglophones dislike Scottish, ie Gaelic, culture getting official recognition in Edinburgh, perhaps they should go and live with their cultural Anglphone brethren in England where they won't have to compromise with the original Scots.
149

Rob M,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 23:27:45
It is wrong to say that "There is no evidence to suggest that bilingual signs are dangerous".

Research conducted by Oliver Clark and Simon Davies of the University of Hull, presented at the British Psychological Society’s Annual Conference in Dublin on 2 April 2008, indicates that excessive road signage may effect road safety.

In summary their research showed that too much visual information, such as in road signs, has an effect on reaction times of drivers and as a consequence may be contributing to road accidents.

In the quiet highlands it is one thing having bilingual road signs. However, in Edinburgh's busy streets we should have nothing that should be a distraction to drivers and increase the risk of accidents.
150

Calum MacNéill,

Dun Éideann 04/11/2009 00:01:17
The research conducted by Oliver Clark and Simon Davies (conducted via a driving simulator) suggests that it might be beneficial to reduce the number of signs on roads, the amount of information in them, and the number and size of adverts. The research does not include evidence relating to bilingual road signs.

Under habituation, the human brain has the ability to 'screen out' unnecessary information (such as a second language in bilingual texts) and there is no evidence to show that this does not happen with customary exposure to bilingual road signs.

Bilingualism in itself does not necessarily equate with 'too much text' - there are such things as small bilingual road signs. Bilingual road signs are used in various places in Europe and this has not been shown to be either problematic or generally contributing to road accidents.
151

korndog,

reality 04/11/2009 01:26:58
150+ posts about edinburgh roadsigns?? There's boys being killed in afghanistan you know. Priorities folks puh - leeze
152

SwampFox,

St Petersburg, FL 04/11/2009 03:37:09
I would like to learn a little Gaelic mainly to be able to pronounce what is written.

Time to sharpen my Sgian Dubh now.
153

Royster,

04/11/2009 06:15:44
#150. They are confusing though and can risk lives. It's a bit like putting up Cornish roadsigns in London or Norman French roadsigns in Wigan (they Norman French roadsigns in Jersey I believe).
154

Royster,

04/11/2009 06:19:12
Bonjour Jean-Pierre. Vous etes de Wigan, n'est-ce pas? Comment va ce salaud Marlon king?
155

brooksy,

04/11/2009 08:47:55
Fàilte, Ceud mìle fàilte. Ciamar a tha thu? Cò às a tha sibh? ochd uairean. Alba, Sasann. 'S fhada bho nach fhaca mi thu/sibh. A can thu sin a-rithist, ma's e do thoil e? A bheil Gàidhlig agat/agaibh?

Chan eil aon chànan gu leòr
156

Noodle doodle,

04/11/2009 09:12:49
#148, I wondered how long it would take some nat to suggest people objecting to gaelic are not proper or original scots and should shuffle off to england...




157

Foo,

04/11/2009 09:22:28
#148

Ah, now we get to the nub of your argument. It's an 'us and them' view you have.

The fact is that Gaelic is nothing more than one aspect of Scotland; it does not define Scotland as you would have us believe. The English language is as much part of Scotlands identity as Gaelic.

Also, you would do well to remember the transient nature of Scotlands population, and with this in mind, your statement; "It should not surprise readers to hear Anglophone so-called 'Scots' from Edinburgh (who are, in cultural term, descendants of the 'Inglis' in the north of Britain) express their cultural antipathy to Gaelic." simply makes no sense.

158

Foo,

04/11/2009 09:25:33
#157

Yes I agree, it's always just bubbling under the surface in any of their views or opinions.

To me it's a more benign version of the Taliban; a group of people living in the middle ages and pressing for a society that has long ago left that way of life behind, if indeed it ever truly had it, with no desire to return to it.
159

Sgithman,

Siorrachd Rois 04/11/2009 09:55:47
143: Ma tha sibh ag iarraidh gum biodh daoine a' sgrìobhadh sa Ghàidhlig, tha sin math gu leòr. Tha daoine gu leòr aig a bheil an comas sin fhathast.

149: It is not wrong to say that there is no evidence to suggest that Gaelic road signs are dangerous. There is no evidence! None. As one doctor here in the Highlands said: "If you can’t cope with bilingual signs you just need to walk, or the keys should be taken from you and you should be taken home gently."

I suspect nobody is saying that there will be signs all over the city. I also expect they will only go up when old ones need replaced so the cost, as proven here in the Highlands, will be minimal.
160

Sgithman,

Ross-shire 04/11/2009 09:59:55
Another small point: How come, in the online survey, there is one question where the answer could be 'Yes' yet two questions where the answer could be 'No'? And it doesn't display properly meaning that you really have to really look to be able to answer in the positive! Loaded against Gaelic, or what?
161

Jock E,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 10:40:53
I can't believe some of the SNP induced nonsense regarding Gaelic written in these entries. The language has almost no history of or relevance to south and east Scotland. To aid understandinglease read:

http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/whits.htm
162

radge dug,

04/11/2009 12:38:35
#161 - such as? Labour and LibDems support Gaelic too. Scots used to be called 'Inglis' and Gaelic 'Scottish'. Plus, if there's no Gaelic history here, just WHERE do these placenames come from??? Yeah, don't let evidence get in the way of your predjudice.
163

TheKKKtookMyBabyAway,

Embra 04/11/2009 12:40:00
If the only argument against this is that there is a safety issue having Gaelic on signs then that is complete nonsense - there is no evidence for it and there are plenty examples around the world of multilingual signs.

There is no budget for this so it costs no significant extra money. Even the amadan who wrote this article in such a prejudiced style had to acknowledge this.

How does the journalist reconcile his anti-Gaelic prejudices with his employers' policy of having a Gaelic section in the Scotsman?
164

Calum MacNéill,

Dun Éideann 04/11/2009 13:51:25
#157 - The fact is that Gaelic culture is THE defining aspect of Scotland - tartan, clans, kilts, whisky and all. If the Gaels had never been here, the north of Britain would be another Wales or just a Greater Northern England.

The English language is THE defining part of England's identity, otherwise England would be, as it were, Welsh-speaking. So-called 'Scots' may wish Anglophone culture to dominate Scotland. True Scots will choose theirs.

It makes perfect sense that Anglophone 'Scots' in Edinburgh should have anti-Gaelic bias, considering the history of that group in Scotland, however 'transient', whatever that word is supposed to say about them.

#158 - Anti-Gaelic bias is always bubbling under the surface amongst Anglophone 'Scots' in Edinburgh, pressing for a society that will not tolerate Gaelic raising its head in public life. Fortunately, we don't live in the middle ages and but in the era of human rights, and the Gaels, and those descended from them, now have the legal right to undo the damage done to their culture by Anglophone 'Scots'.

Hear how the Anglophones still rail against the true, original Scots and their Scottish language. From the way they talk, one would think this was England and that Gaelic had no right to exist here. Fortunately, this is Scotland and Gaelic has every right to exist here. If they don't like it, they have the choice to move to England where Gaelic will not impinge on their consciousness.

You should be ashamed of your negativity towards Scottish culture or any other culture for that matter, no matter how English you wish to be. Grow up, this is 2009.
165

Calum Crubag,

04/11/2009 14:27:15
This guy aint no journalist.

Good on the council for this. Gaelic is our heritage too.

Btw...
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/gaeliclanguage/Gaelic-signs-are-good-for.3359079.jp
166

Calum MacNéill,

Dun Éideann 04/11/2009 14:28:04
#161 - The greatest relevance of Gaelic to Edinburgh is that the language is relevant to other parts of Scotland. Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland. If its people cannot tolerate the existence or expression in Edinburgh of the culture of elsewhere in Scotland, that speaks volumes. Threatened by Scottishness, are we?

However, the Gaelic language was once much more prominent in the Lothians, prominent enough to affect the map of the area itself, with names such as Rathach, Srath Broc, Cas Chaolas, Dail Maine, Dàil Ché, Dàil MoThuae, Cros Tòrrfinn, Currach, Baile nan Trodach, Baile Àirneach, Baile Bachlach, Achadh an Daingein, Inbhir Easg, Creag Easg, Creag nan Gall, Druim na Croise, Druim Dubh, Garbh Allt, etc etc, given Anglophone equivalents/replacements.

Trying to diminish the significance of the presence of these names is not a convincing approach: these placenames show that the region concerned was absorbed into a Scottish nation, not merely left to form part of England. If the Anglophones of Edinburgh cannot tolerate out and out Scottish culture on their territory, they have a cheek to call themselves Scots. It is quite clear from such an attitude how Scottish, or how English, their nature is.
167

Rob M,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 23:01:53
#150 As you say under habituation, the human brain has the ability to 'screen out' unnecessary information and as someone who lives in Edinburgh and knows my way around, my brain will 'screen out' all information contained in road signs as I no longer require it. However, for those who are not familiar with Edinburgh the adding of additional information to road signs increases the amount of information to be processed effecting driver's increasing reaction times.
168

Noodle doodle,

04/11/2009 23:11:33
#164, nope, gaelic culture is the defining aspect of highland culture. Highland culture doesn't equal scottish culture. To try and attach labels such as 'english' or 'scottish' to someone's views on one small portion of a country's history or heritage is asinine. To try and attach negative connotations on top is typically nationalist.

The original true scots (if we're being as oafish to project back modern day boundaries onto kingdoms 2000 years ago) were picts, britons and the gododdin, and then the romans popped up for a while before yer 'true scots' and gaelic arrived in the fourth century.

They're no more representative or totemic to modern scotland or even ancient scotland then the 'angles' that gave england it's name are. And, for edinburgh, it was the angles who kicked the picts out - the 'scots' and their language were never there to be booted till 950AD - and by then 'scots' didn't mean what it had 600 years earlier.

As for Edinburgh, it's an anglicisation of an ancient cumbric name Eidyn gaer. Most of the place names you list will also be gaelic translations of existing cumbric names, as the lothians were never occupied by a gaelic-speaking people.


169

Calum MacNéill,

05/11/2009 19:54:16
#150 The format of bilingual road signing in Scotland, Ireland and Wales is sufficiently developed to facilitate rapid habituation even to the visitor. There is no evidence to suggest that bilingualism overloads drivers' brains either here or on the continent.

#164. No, Gaelic culture has given Scotland its name, its most famous symbols, and placenames all over the map. All of this applies all over the country because the language was used all over the Lowlands when the Gaels, ie the Scots, were in the ascendant, unlike today.

The negative connotations I am hearing most here are Anglophone attitudes to Gaelic culture. Such attitudes deserve the rebuke they get. The original, true Scots were Gaels, not Britons, regardless of boundaries of any sort and regardless of what you say. If the Gaels and the English had never arrived, the Lothians would probably be speaking British today, not English.

Any foreigner would laugh at someone claiming that Gaelic culture is not more totemic to ancient/modern Scotland than English culture. Such can only be the logic of the Anglophone.

Despite what you say, in 950AD, the word Scot still referred to Gaelic speakers, not Anglophones or Britons. Frankly, from your previous statements, I'm surprised that you know that Britons lived in the Lothians before the English. You are certainly inaccurate with regard to what they called Edinburgh. It was Din Eidyn (fort of Eidyn). The order of nouns in Celtic languages is different to the word order in English which you followed.

Of the 18 placenames I mentioned (not a complete list, by any means), only four (Srath Broc, Dail Maine, Inbhir Easg & Creag Easg) contain elements which are or may be pre-Gaelic.

The prevalence of Gaelic placenames throughout S E Scotland show significant Gaelic settlement in the region. 'Occupation' is very much the word - Wikipedia uses the phrase "occupation of Lothian by the Scots", ie, the Celts, not the English. Gaels, ie Scots, came
170

Calum MacNéill,

Dun Éideann 05/11/2009 19:59:00
Gaels, ie Scots, came and lived here, owned land and worked here, and the English who were already here even used the Gaelic placenames for centuries without translating them to English. They were now living within the Kingdom of Scotland, not the Kingdom of Northumbria.

Your skewed Anglophone propaganda has hereby been rectified to concur with the facts as they stand. Your attempts to convince us that the Scots/Gaels are not central to the creation and identity of a Scot Land are doomed to failure. If the Scots/Gaels had not been central to this, the English would never have named the country after the Scots/Gaels.
171

Noodle doodle,

05/11/2009 21:22:40
#169. You're simply wrong.

The places you refer to are all originally cumbric names, because they originated under british speakers, not gaelic ones.

When the scots (who by 950ad consisted of the original scots and picts) got edinburgh the inhabitants there spoke a language similar to what is known as scots. Not Gaelic. Scots. Undoubtedly a few were translated into gaelic for the benefit of those further north, but they weren't gaelic-speaking habitations, in the same way welsh/irish/scottish placenames were anglicised but never settled by incoming english-speakers.

Regardless gaelic would never have bedded in as over the next 100 years lothian swapped hands between the scots and anglo-saxons, and the scots and the language named after them (Scots!) became increasingly anglicised. Then the Normans came along to spoil the fun for everyone.



172

Calum MacNéill,

Dun Éideann 06/11/2009 00:46:51
#171 Place name: Baile nan Trodach

Baile = Gaelic word (town)
Trodach = Gaelic word (knight)

Neither of these words can be demonstrated to have British origin. This placename is composed of entirely Gaelic elements. The same goes for the other 14 placenames referred to previously as Gaelic in origin. Noodle doodle is revealed to be an Anglophone propagandist for pretending otherwise and could not produce any evidence for any British form of the same words.

When the Scots/Gaels and British got the Lothians, most of the inhabitants of the Lothians spoke a language called Inglis, not Scottish/Gaelic. Inglis/English. Gaelic placenames in this region are taken by scholars in general to represent local usage, not the wanton reinvention of Gaelic mapmakers.

What Anglophones today call the Lowland 'Scots' language is actually directly descended from this 'Inglis'. It is Anglo-Saxon in origin. The Scots/Gaels on the other hand were Celts, not Anglo-Saxon.

Anglophone 'Scots' have Northumbrian English origins. You can no longer effectively falsify or obscure this origin by renaming their speech as 'Scots'.

Likewise, the original, true Scots have Gaelic origins. The Gaels still exist and cannot be accused of speaking an Anglo-Saxon language. Those proud to be Scottish in culture and identity today cannot truly be so unless they are willing to associate themselves with the original Scots, their culture and their heritage. To disassociate oneself from the Scottish origins and culture, and associate oneself entirely with Anglo-Saxon culture, is simply to make oneself unScottish. To name the 'Inglis' culture as 'Scots' is simply an attempt to steal the Scottish/Gaelic name for Anglo-Saxon purposes, to justify their sense that Scotland is 'theirs' and that the Scots/Gaels have no place raising their heads in public and interfering in 'their' culture.

Note to the reader - Noodle doodle is clearly a wilful ignoramus whose intellect does not merit fur
173

Calum MacNéill,

06/11/2009 00:47:14
#171
Note to the reader - Noodle doodle is clearly a wilful ignoramus whose intellect does not merit further response from me past this.
174

Noodle doodle,

06/11/2009 09:14:04
Calu, readers know, if there are any left, that he who loses his temper has usually lost the argument with it...

 

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