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Monday, 2nd November 2009 Change Date Latest Issue

Caltongate wins latest round as councillors approve vision

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Published Date: 07 February 2008
CITY councillors today sent a message to investors around the world that Edinburgh is open to "modern development" after backing the Caltongate scheme.
But protesters fighting the £300 million plans warned that a "dangerous precedent" had been set, and said the local community was silenced by the promise of money.


The main elements of the biggest development of the Old Town since the 12th century received the go-ahead following a stormy eight-hour meeting at the City Chambers.

The plans for a new five-star hotel, conference centre, plus scores of shops, offices and homes won the backing of the majority of councillors at yesterday's planning committee.

However, contentious proposals to demolish all but the façade of some Royal Mile tenements were put on hold, and developer Mountgrange has been asked to look at ways of preserving the buildings for affordable housing use.

The Caltongate scheme will now go to Scottish ministers for final approval, and protesters are hoping to force a public inquiry.

However, planning leader Councillor Jim Lowrie said he was confident ministers would support the council's decision.

"I'm delighted the main elements have been approved, because it sends the message to investors that Edinburgh is not afraid to have modern developments," he said.

When asked how he felt about the level of opposition to the scheme – with around 350 individual objectors writing to the council – Cllr Lowrie said: "In five years' time they will have got used to it."

The Caltongate scheme involves the demolition of two C- listed buildings – the Sailors' Ark and the former Canongate Venture school.

The proposals had already won the backing of council officials, but a special meeting of the planning committee was held for councillors to have their say.

A number of community and heritage bodies spoke out against the plans, including the Edinburgh World Heritage trust which warned that Caltongate and similar modern developments in the city centre could put the city's World Heritage status at risk.

Catriona Grant, of the Canongate Community Forum, said the protesters felt "gagged" because they "didn't have £300m".

"The councillors' legacy will be to destroy Edinburgh," she said.

Ms Grant appealed for legal help in a bid to force a public inquiry. The Caltongate scheme was split into various planning applications. Four councillors voted against both the proposals for a controversial landmark building by Malcolm Fraser, and an office atrium adjacent to New Street. Three councillors opposed the main hotel application, and two politicians voted against the plans for a mix-use development on the corner of East Market Street and Cranston Street.

Green councillor Steve Burgess said: "I felt much of the application didn't enhance the conservation area, and I'm disappointed more of my colleagues didn't support that view."

But Labour's Eric Milligan said: "As a planning committee, we have to remove ourselves from local or parochial decisions and look after the economic well-being of this city."

Mountgrange spokesman Mark Cummings said councillors had "recognised the benefits" of the scheme.


EMOTIONS RUN HIGH ON DAY THAT COULD CHANGE OLD TOWN FOREVER

IN high spirits, dozens of protesters to the controversial Caltongate scheme mounted an early-morning blockade of the City Chambers with the cry "Save Our Old Town".

As deliberations got under way in the packed room of the council's planning committee, various objectors had their say with the level of applause from the public gallery steadily reaching a crescendo.

Mountgrange chief executive Manish Chande was spotted with his head in his hands.

After lunch the plans for a giant office complex were approved by nine votes to four – followed by shouts of "boo" from the gallery.

Former Lord Provost Eric Milligan was the subject of much heckling after urging councillors to think of the city's "economic well-being".

And when the plans for a five-star hotel were approved, shouts of "shame" echoed around the room.

As the evening drew in, and with one aspect of the scheme left to decide, tired councillors considered postponing a vote.

But the declaration from the SNP's Rob Munn that "we're all adults" prompted them into action. They gave Caltongate the green light just after 7pm.

Outside, tears were flowing as protesters stood defiantly at the Chamber's doors.







Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 February 2008 11:56 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Caltongate development
 
1

Erk!,

Perth 07/02/2008 12:18:24
What a fantastic result for the developer and their planning team.

Lets see more positive coverage of this scheme and less negative ill feeling from those who simply cannot accept that this will now almost certainly go ahead.

Well done!
2

mrmoneypenny,

07/02/2008 12:22:27
#2 Good to see someone in Perth giving an opinion on something that will not affect them.

www.eh9.or.uk
3

Jingsitsme,

EDINBURGH 07/02/2008 12:23:26
Yes great news!

Change happens and is happening for the good. Some new builds are awful but so are some of the old!! We need freshness!

There are new builds and hopefully more that will bring a sense of vitality and growth and forward thinking to Edinburgh.

New builds can bring in new ideas, design, material of our times not mentioning the skills of young people highly skilled in their field.

To those that object embrace change - you can if you have the right attitude but many of you decided against before it was even at the drawing board.

Embrace with attitude - you might just like it! Think about the change that has happeded since Edinburgh Castle evolved!! Change happens!

So it is good news! - for once!
4

The Judge,

07/02/2008 12:25:50
I didn't realise Ikea made houses.
5

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:26:32
Might be better than the pastiche confection of the Scandic Hotel further up the Royal Mile.

BUT..........they said all this about new-builds, fresh vision etc, etc, in the 1960s and look what happened to princes Street.
6

Erk!,

Perth 07/02/2008 12:30:02
#3... how wrong you are.

I'm thinking of returning to the city - it looks like there are some exciting times ahead for central Edinburgh.






7

The Wookie,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 12:32:53
"Protesters said local community had been silienced by the promise of money"...

is this an annagram of "protesters never got there own way so go in the huff and make up excuses"
8

Gary_BSW,

Ayr 07/02/2008 12:46:43
I have to say this really is fantastic news for the city of Edinburgh, a real opportunity to modernize an old and outdated part of the city.

I can’t begin to tell you how inconvenient it is for me when I hear of all these protesters against the plan- Get real it’s the 21st Century!
9

Randan,

07/02/2008 12:47:30
2 words - brown envelopes.
10

Randan,

07/02/2008 12:48:17
#9 Gary - yes old and outdated. Lets do the castle while we're at it!
11

Big Bouncy Betty ,

07/02/2008 12:49:07
5#

Ikea has sold more than 1,500 “BoKlok” houses throughout Scandanavia.
Furniture-retailer Ikea and construction-firm Skanska first teamed up in 1995 for a housing exhibition, with the aim of demonstrating that it was possible to build houses at a lower cost. Skanska was responsible for construction and Ikea was in charge of furnishing the demonstration model.


12

Iain fae Elgin,

London 07/02/2008 12:51:44
So, the earlier article from the Scotsman, with its multitide of disgusted complaints about the development, has been relegated to some obscure corner of the website, and this happy little article with its ill thought out comments in favour takes its place.

Do you really like the proposals offered? You all want to see Edinburgh look like every other town in Britain?

Why not just live in Glenrothes if architecture like that takes your fancy? Its commutable to Edinburgh.
You can enjoy cloned concrete and steel and those of us with a brain can continue to enjoy our World heritage site in peace.

But no, thanks to our esteemed cooncillors it's, once again, too late.
13

eric,

Lothian 07/02/2008 12:54:52
Remember we have been slating Glasgow for decades for for having the ambition to go ahead with these new buildings!All looks Positive after all.
14

Iain fae Elgin,

London 07/02/2008 12:55:03
Ooooops, i forget. YOUR cooncillors.

We have our own muppets down here.

Demolition of the old Spittlefields market anyone? Or how about the demolition of Alexandra Palace, to be replaced by.....I'm sure you can guess...a concrete and glass tower.

Pathetic
15

Mr Crisps,

Musselburgh 07/02/2008 12:56:50
If nothing else they're managing to crush some small businesses - I think only VA Electronic Design are left in the Canongate Venture.

Grasping greedy scumbags make terrible decision shock horror. If the Cooncil were a football team I'd be chanting 'Sack the board'.
16

,

07/02/2008 13:12:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

hondo,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 13:16:06
god help us when that ned breeds
18

Bill MacD,

07/02/2008 13:24:58
"CITY councillors today sent a message to investors around the world that Edinburgh is open to "modern development" after backing the Caltongate scheme".

If that first line's not lazy journalism, just recycling the developers' PR spin, I don't know what is!

This isn't commenting on the rights and wrongs of this proposal - just expressing disgust at this newspaper's atrocious editorial standards.
19

grantcat,

Old Town 07/02/2008 13:32:16
It isn't finished - it will have to go to Scottish Ministers and there should be a public enquiry. There are issues about Mountgrange being given a off table below value offer of the land, common good land is to be sold here. It is not a case of going in a "huff". It was clear from the Planning Committee that they had no interest in the 1800 material objections and the 8 deputations against the site - their only concern was the promise of £300 million investment - the planning process is a farce, they really shouldn't bother and gee us peace if they are going to grant applications anyway.

No one was asking for pastiche buildings or not to develop the site but to build a development that was sympathetic to the local area and not demolish listed buildings and people's homes. What is wrong with that?

In a democracy we have the right to protest and to appeal. Hopeful somewhere someone will see sense and not dazzled by the promise of millions (it is a promise - no facts or figures or business case was made to the Planning Committee).

In Edinburgh a Listed B building was demolished to make way for a hotel up at the old Royal Infirmary - the hotel pulled out. No hotel, no listed building!

Homes and shops were demolished in the 70s for the Appleton Tower at the University and for St James Centre. St James Centre is to be demolished and everyone hates the Appleton Tower. On a cleared industrial site something decent could have been built here but the developers lack of imagination allows them to want to build the omni centre in the area!

Perhaps we should have just demolished the Old Town and pulled up the Meadows when we got the chance in the 50s and gone for that motorway that was proposed in the Abercrombie proposals then we could have had all the new buildings we wanted without pesky residents and heritage groups making a fuss.
20

Top Floor,

07/02/2008 13:50:51
#22 Catriona

Get over it. You ran a good campaign, you've had your say and the decision has been taken.

Move on to the next worthy cause.
21

Think Tank,

07/02/2008 14:18:23
#22

Very good of you to say 1800 material objections.

Made by 300 people of which a "couple of dozen" turned up to protest.

If you think caving in to the wishes of a few hundred people represents "democracy" then you are completely deluded. This scheme is good for Edinburgh, and excellent for the people who live here. Do you not realise the benefit of nearly 3000 new jobs? That's a whopping 10 times the numbers of lives changed than protesters in your group.

Further attempts to take this to a public enquiry are frankly a waste of your time, a waste of the executive's time and a scandalous misuse of OUR taxpayers money.

And your statement about the Omni centre- widely regarded as an excellent piece of Edinburgh architecture blending the old with the new- speaks volumes....the shameful truth is that you and your lot would oppose literally ANYTHING that is new. Well I hate to inform you that the site is a pretty disgraceful dump at the minute and I can't wait for the new developments to open.

22

Buttress,

07/02/2008 14:34:36
This will have to be called in and all the issues aired at an inquiry. This isn't a small local matter. The council is set to gain financially and so cannot be allowed to give the permission without scrutiny. The councillors may have been too arrogant to listen to conservation groups last night, and too stupid to know what policies are in place which should have been taken note of, but at an inquiry they will be able to put forward expert views and be listened to.


Edinburgh is in danger of having its World Heritage Site status removed. It cannot be open to developers who simply wish to demolish listed buildings for financial gain, claiming that the economics justify it.

This demolition of buildings goes against national planning policy. Anyone who does not believe that WHS status brings in cash in the form of a major amount of tourism is sadly misguided.

There is also the World Heritage Site management plan to consider, signed by the council, and the fact part of the remit of the EWHT is to advise Ministers on the management of the site.


www.eh8.org.uk

for addresses of who to contact to add your voices to the request for a call in. This is not a local matter but an international concern.


23

,

07/02/2008 14:37:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Buttress,

07/02/2008 14:40:22
The other article:

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Listed-buildings-in-Old-Town.3752344.jp
25

Buttress,

07/02/2008 14:47:39
'And your statement about the Omni centre- widely regarded as an excellent piece of Edinburgh architecture blending the old with the new- speaks volumes'

Not by anyone with any knowledge of architecture it isn't.



26

JFW,

New Town 07/02/2008 14:50:28
Whatever about the development (and personally I think more bland hotels and conference facilities are not what Edinburgh needs) I'm sick to death of the double standards of the planning board in this city. This site is in a World Heritage area and includes listed buildings, some of which are probably going to be demolished to make way for this bland development. On the other hand we residents of the Hertiage Area cannot install wooden, double-glazed sash windows or paint our front doors anything other than blue, black or red. I also can't increase the number of rooms I rent in my B&B to provide for, and benefit from, the increased tourism we're supposed to be seeing. All this because the planners say it will affect the character of the World Heritage Area. Now, with big money involved (again) they are saying that Listed Buildings can probably be demolished, as they allowed in the former ERI site, and a typically bland modern souless structure can be plonked in the middle of the area; almost as ugly and bland as the Parliament Buildings and the new council buildings. If you look around the Old Town you can see its fabric being eroded with a bunch of ultra-bland (mainly hotel developments). If they are going to completely ignore the rules they impose on normal folks they should at least ensure that something spectacular gets built.
27

jude the obscure,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 14:56:52
well said #25

Jesus wept - what a bunch of gurning, greeting faced nimbys.

Where were the 'community action groups' and 'activists' (workshy malingerers and busybodies) over the last 40 odd years when this area was an unused and dirty bus depot!? I didn't see anyone jumping up and down then. Why the minute someone actually proposes to spend their own money doing something with a run down and blighted part of the Old Town do they suddenly become animated?

And why when the considered decision of the ELECTED local authority is that it should go ahead do they want (despite their claims to speak for the community)
want the local authority decision to be overturned by central government – hypocrites!

How long are we going to allow these narrow minded backward looking interest groups to stymie any and every development of this city!?

28

jude the obscure,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 15:07:19
#27

lets hope they remove the World Heritage Site status because its not worth a bucket of warm spit!

1 - no world heritage site has ever had its status removed for any reason

2 - so many WHS have been created that it doesn’t actually mean anything any more - pretty soon we'll all be living in a world heritage site!

3 - despite the best efforts of the heritage lobby Edinburgh is a living city - not a museum and I for one am heartily sick of WHS being used as an excuse to stop any and every development proposed.
29

Buttress,

07/02/2008 15:07:54
Th answer to 33 is that this is what happens when a bunch of elected numpties with few brains, guided by planning officers with not a lot of idea, ignore national planning policies and the World Heritage Site management plan and allow a ghastly out of place and out of scale development to be given the go ahead. As the plans involve the demolition of listed buildings (not on the old bus garage site) owned by the council, as the council is set to make money out of this, it HAS to be referred to central government to make the final decision.


Clearly a great deal of ingnorance floating around in that post.
30

Buttress,

07/02/2008 15:09:54
Yes WHS has been removed, and several are now on the in danger list.

See UNESCO site.

WHS status does not mean no development, it means development in keeping with the WHS - which this is not.

See EWHT site.

31

Iain fae Elgin,

London 07/02/2008 15:21:17
Aye well Mario, if it was just the fiiling in of a brownfield site that would be OK, it's the wanton destruction of perfectly good architecture that gets me.
32

jude the obscure,

edinburgh 07/02/2008 15:23:16
sure buttress #35, because central government elected politicians are so much wiser and have access to much better guidance on these matters?

Your very free and easy with taxpayers money calling for another group of planning officers and politicians to review the scheme at the national level? If your so sure that the local 'elected numpties' have ignored national planning policies they can always put your own money on the line and ask for a judicial review?

oh yes - the oh so ancient and handsom 1930's tenement - did Mary Queen of Scots have her tea there once?

33

Buttress,

07/02/2008 15:31:47
'Your very free and easy with taxpayers money calling for another group of planning officers and politicians to review the scheme at the national level? If your so sure that the local 'elected numpties' have ignored national planning policies they can always put your own money on the line and ask for a judicial review?'


No need. It has to go before Ministers to make the decision, as it goes against national planning policy and the council has a financial involement.




34

Moscow Central 42,

07/02/2008 15:56:46
The objectors to the Caltongate proposal certainly did themselves no favours heckling the Members of the Planning Committee who had a difficult enough job to do without such puerile interventions. What a bunch of complete numpties. I have to say that I was surprised such behaviour was even tolerated. Councillor Lowrie's immediate predecessor as Planning Convenor would have had the public gallery cleared by the City Officers.
35

AaronL,

Hillside 07/02/2008 16:09:50
I'm sorry for SOOT that the councillors didn't listen. I guess money talks. It doesn't bode well for Meadowbank and many sites at risk of housing, hotels etc. How many more hotels do we need?

I did read the comments from those that are happy for Caltongate to go ahead and I don't disagree with all of them. But, one thing not made clear is that even 60 objections per application would normally be considered average, so to receive over 1000 in total is unprecedented. Unfortunally the public are not used to using their voice so even this huge turnout can be belittled and ignored, mind you, at one point 70% of Scots were against going into Iraq - majority in theory should work but in practice money means more.

With developments like that of Donald Trump, seems like Scotland will end up looking more like a corporate pavement than a land of character. Welcome in McDonald style prefabs and leggoland buildings, goodbye Scotland's charm and what little is left of its pride.
36

Jingsitsme,

EDINBURGH 07/02/2008 16:19:02
"22 - we do not go on forever so why keep properties just for the sake of it when knocking down is a more positive approach even although it is some houses.

Suggest you move with the times and take on a more a positive attitude. You might like the future rather than stay in the past! We need this change, we are in the 21 Century!
37

Beachcomber,

Embra 07/02/2008 16:26:26
Butress, you appear to be dealing with some empty heids on this thread, I attended the 'Damming Committee' farce
yesterday, Eric Milligan made a statement after the
Architect had spoken (this man had 45 years experience and Prof of Architecture at Edinburgh University) What qualifications did any of the Damming commitee hold (answers on the back of a postage stamp)
Milligan mentioned that it was professionals like this
man we should all be listening too, well in case he didn't notice, Professionals from Unesco/Cockburn Association and other professional people made representations against this hideous proposal - did it make a hape of a difference, obviously not. This man
would not know a professional if they bit him on the erky. With the exception of Burgess/Blackett and Keir,
the rest sold the people of this City (nevermind the reisdents of the Old Town) down the swanney.
Isn't Jim (am a really here) Lowrie under investigation
for supporting the Cannongate proposal before the
stich up was made public? Lowriegate and Wendygate
what a shower of sharlatans..
38

Think Tank,

07/02/2008 16:28:50
#41

I'm afraid you're falling for the SOOT/eh8.org spin.

There aren't "thousands" of objections. Despite attempts to create organised objection (horrible in itself), there were just 300 different people who lodged all those complaints. That's really nothing in the grand scheme of things.

If it wouldn't be such a PR disaster, Mountaingrange should probably take the owners of that eh8.org website to court for deliberate misrepresentation of the plans. Perhaps this will now happen given the acceptance of the plans.

39

Think Tank,

07/02/2008 16:31:53
#44

Most people stopped listening to the Cockburn Association years ago when it became blatently clear that their objective in life was to OPPOSE every single new major development in Edinburgh, using the considered opinion that it is bad because it is new.

40

Moscow Central 42,

07/02/2008 16:39:35
44 Beachcomber

What a pathetic semi - literate tirade. No wonder the objectors failed to make their case with supporters like you.
41

Buttress,

07/02/2008 16:52:29
44 - The plans will be called in. A number of bodies will be asked for advice, including the EWHT, whose job it is to advise Ministers.

If a public inquiry is held, all professional opinion will have to be listened to, and those making the decison will not be local councillors.
42

James07,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 17:38:38
The regeneration should *not* involve the demolition of the two listed buildings, and that the tenements should be left intact.

Furthermore, the regeneration should focus on building more and better social housing, public spaces, community centres. There is a huge shortage of affordable social housing in edinburgh. We definitely do not need *yet more* ugly offices and 'luxury' flats. On the waterfront development there are loads of flats and office blocks lying empty.

I particularly like the idea SOOT proposed in their excellent alternative-regeneration proposal (that was ignored by the council) for an indoor market on the brownfield site, something edinburgh is sorely lacking.

I worry how many of the above posts are from the PR company that Mountgrange employs. I bet quite a few! they are well known for their shady underhand practices, in a channel four documentary they are shown to have forged letters of support for a development in london. The same company that ex-edinburgh councilor Donald Anderson now works for!

Dont be disheartened SOOT, you have loads of supporters! keep on fighting!
43

Buttress,

07/02/2008 18:06:32
A market on the lines of Borough in London would be a major attraction.

I think SOOT has support at the highest of levels - HRH Prince Charles spoke out last week about the threats to Edinburgh WHS.



44

calum,

07/02/2008 18:39:05
Ah, good ol' Moscow on his high horse, and when cogent argument and considered reasoning fails, resort to insults. But he won't answer this today, oh no, he leaves HQ at 5 and he doesn't have a PC at home, eh Moscow?
Come on, drop the disguise. We know, y'know. It's your phrases which give you away ...... that and a well placed insider.
45

Buttress,

07/02/2008 18:50:11
Oh do tell...
46

calum,

07/02/2008 19:00:58
Buttress,
If you link his many contributions on this story to his many contributions on other Council stories (particularly on Conmmittee business) it doesn't take long to make the connections. But a Kooncil Klipe on the inside is always useful.
BTW, I believe the investigative journalists may be interested in this, particularly with certain ex-Kooncillors, current Kooncillors and their professional(sic)advisers. This a is big trough with many snouts in it!
47

Buttress,

07/02/2008 19:07:14
Ah - the brown envelope brigade!

Still, it's good to know that insiders are keepimg a finger on the pulse of what the rest of us think.

I have no doubt that computers can be investigated, and those wasting council time quietly disposed of?


48

calum,

07/02/2008 19:22:44
Yes, the smell of the brown envelopes is everywhere where there may be a contract or a develpment "opportunity" and the usual hogwash about affordable housing (cheapest now £250K at Meggetland)and the same old suspects are involved - ex-Kooncillors Anderson and Davies and now the leader of the pack is involved, the genius Milligan!! He'd turn up to the opening of a bag of chips but he'd "nothing to do with Meggetland and Applecross" - he told me so, even when I didn't ask. Bet A and D are hoping that Eric resists the temptation to say the first thing that comes into his mouth!!
49

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 19:35:13
#51 calum

Moscow Central 42? Calum, she's never been the same since Anne Robinson got the role of presenter in 'Weakest Link' - although she is often as rude.

50

calum,

07/02/2008 20:04:16
#56 ...... and MC's on the paybill as well, such a loyal employee. It won't be answered until tomorrow, if at all, due to HQ's desk and all that. Can you see the wagons being circled?
51

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 07/02/2008 20:18:18
#42 Moscow Central, you are so right, my posting was abysmal. However, as you have such great intelect
perhaps you should consider hiring an Agent, why sit in the dark handling yourself.

Toodle
52

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/02/2008 22:22:23

The solution is kick out the foreign developer, split the site with a road extending from East Market St to Tolbooth Wynd,(Magdalenes way) and run the closes down the hill leaving the north end open for gardens. It is the only area of the site which gets sunlight in winter.
have separate developers build "as like" with in the form of and progressing the Scottish vernacular and lo a lovely place to be will organically progress.

You can take your "down-load from Mars" and shove it up Mountgranges @ss

New St is simply not applicable for a scheme, this is the The old town of Edinburgh, a legend in the form of masonry through-out the world.

A World heritage site.

GET A GRIP OF REALITY """"PLANNERS""""OF EDINBURGH COUNCIL.

You couldn't plan your way through an open road.
53

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/02/2008 22:22:41
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Listed-buildings-in-Old-Town.3752344.jp
54

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 07/02/2008 22:27:16
The Scandic crown is loved by most inhabitants.Ian Begg?
The cry I have heard is by architects saying pastiche as though it were a crime it is not correct, we simply want to live with character and homley dwellings in the venacular of our architecture. Nobody wants to live in an architects experiment.
55

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 07/02/2008 22:50:55
the city has realy gone to hell cheep crap allover
56

Peter Wyngarde,

08/02/2008 00:01:38
I think a lot of those moaning about those who fought against this are assuming they are anti-new development, from what I've read they are all for the redevelopment of this run down area, but looking for something of genuine architectural and town planning merit, something that is unique and something that is Edinburgh and blends the amazing old town around it with something modern and vibrant.

Instead what we have is more design by etch-a-sketch, its lazy and cheap and detracts from the old town architecture around about it, they should start with the surrounding environs and develop ideas that are sympathetic to those and make them vibrant and new, what we have is legoland here so the developer can make a quick buck with the cheapest form of construction

IF we want Edinburgh to be succesfull and vibrant, as I;m sure we all do, we need to vet these schemes better so they actually suit this city and this space. Modern architecture does not have to mean cheap, quick and boring like the Mountgrange proposals are...
57

turn10,

08/02/2008 00:21:58
The best news for Edinburgh. Investment in an area that no one wanted to go to.

Can't believe some of these comments...Do you really want to bring back the slums and the gas works?

Get real the architcture is modern cos we are now in the 21st century. No doubt you all complained when the parliament wasn't built by a Scottish architect. Now you have your wish (did you know this was designed by scottish architects???) and your still bleeting. Get real

Away home now to your right to buy flat... (now there lies the problem!)

How come if someone from Perth (last time I looked that was in Scotland?) comments postively about the scheme some don't listen but hey if you live in Canada and hate the scheme your comments carry lots of weight?

Just listen to yourselves....
58

Buttress,

08/02/2008 00:40:42
See:

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Heritage-status-probe-looms-over.3757952.jp
59

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 08/02/2008 00:48:20
TORONTO NEW YORK ARE ALL CHEAP JUNK I KNOW/IRON.WORKER
60

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 08/02/2008 00:49:01
*Please enter your comment*
61

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 08/02/2008 00:49:41
*Please enter your comment*
62

Buttress,

08/02/2008 00:50:33
£300m Old Town development could face UN investigation

See report at:

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Heritage-status-probe-looms-over.3757952.jp








63

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 08/02/2008 00:58:08
84 PERCENT POLLED DO NOT WANT IT THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKE
64

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 08/02/2008 01:16:48
IN ALL HONESTY THE PICTURE LOOKS BLOODY AWFUL
65

jimmyhibs,

east kilbride 08/02/2008 07:57:18
I've nothing against change and development of cities. But it would be nice if we had faith the buildings would still be here in 50 years.
Sadly the quality of buildings being erected now are slightly better than lego.
66

Moscow Central 42,

08/02/2008 09:11:15
43 World class concrete
In a word. No.

51 Calum
You cannot be serious - Beachcomber advancing a cogent argument! As for your other observation: I always work late into the night at Moscow Centre and I never leave without my PC.

Buttress 54
Your unsubstantiated and potentially libellous comments about" brown envelopes " are noted. You will, therefore, be most disappointed to learn that the only brown envelopes I ever receive come from HM Revenue and Customs.

Peter 51
Wide of the mark as usual. I am afraid that you will continue to remain a very disappointed and concerned. individual. I suspect that Anne Robinson would be an absolute joy to encounter compared with you.

Beachcomber
Write out one hundred times: " I must learn to spell intellect correctly." In fact I do have many agents in the field handling people just like you. Not very subtle. You really should stick to beachcombing.
67

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 08/02/2008 10:07:55
3
Peter Wyngarde,
08/02/2008 00:01:38
"I think a lot of those moaning about those who fought against this are assuming they are anti-new development, from what I've read they are all for the redevelopment of this run down area, but looking for something of genuine architectural and town planning merit, something that is unique and something that is Edinburgh and blends the amazing old town around it with something modern and vibrant."

EXACTLY, not another nowhere land.
68

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 08/02/2008 10:18:58
4
turn10,
08/02/2008 00:21:58

Do you work for Mountgrange? Are you a Unionist? Are you a Self hating Scot? Are you english?

Obviously you are incapable of cognitive, lateral thinking and observation.

Not in one comment since proposals were submitted has expressed a desire for hideous industrial buildings to be built or rebuilt.

To even suggest that a site or sites like that would not arouse great interest in developers is lunacy.

Do you revel in the fact that a foreign architect built a daft building in Holyrood which is totally impractical , falling apart, in a historical place of failure and was a waste of money as we already have a magnificent Parliament building Thomas Hamiltons Regent Terrace Building?

http://www.answers.com/topic/hamilton-high-school-jpg-1

69

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 08/02/2008 10:26:09
#73 Moscow Central 42

"I always work late into the night at Moscow Centre and I never leave without my PC."

Well, the security at the Centre can't be very good if you are allowed to leave with an entire PC (we assume you mean a computer and not a police constable), but I'm sure you're a big strong lass.

Anyway, your bad manners and fevered postings still continue to give us all a good laugh as you continue to hide under the anonymity of the Internet.

Keep your powder dry old thing.

Peter
70

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 08/02/2008 11:54:14
As the Caltongate development is obviously going to be all 'new builds' perhaps the objectors should take comfort from the thought that in approximately 40 years time most of it will probably have collapsed. Who knows it might even be built the same contractors who put up other 'structures' in the area in which case could self-destruct be a built in factor?

Of greater concern, certainly to myself and neighbours, (I live in a Victorian listed building about 400 yards down Calton Road from this site) is the huge increase in traffic which will result from thsi development. The Royal Mile, Calton Road and New Street, etc will all be toiling to cope.

Does anyone know if the residential part of this development is 'car free' as this was a 'policy' of the Toon Cooncil at one point regarding Town center developments?

Also, will Mountgrange be expected to contribute to the tram scheme, or is the development not close enough to Leith Walk to be included in that trap?

One thing for sure, any reasonable development is better than the derelict buildings around this area which have now been demolished.
71

Buttress,

08/02/2008 12:00:59
See today:

For longer article and comments se:


http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Heritage-status-probe-looms-over.3757952.jp#2460218

and


http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Should-Caltongate-protesters-take-their.3757879.jp#2460232


www.eh8.org.uk

and related blog
72

Moscow Central 42,

08/02/2008 12:47:16

" As you continue to hide under the anonymity of the Internet. " And you of course don't!Having said that, you appear these day to be providing an increasing amount of personal detail in your postings - " I live in a Victorian listed building about 400 yards down Calton Road from this site. " Why don't you just be done with it and come out.
73

WKKB,

08/02/2008 12:57:47
I'd LOVE to see just exactly what portion of Edinburgh's financial 'stability' is paid for by tourism. I understand it's a hefty chunk and if that's the case who thinks people will come to see Edinburgh when it's all glass and concrete with a few untouchable ancient builds dotted between them? People can go to Glasgow to see that. I'm with those who want to keep Edinburgh on the world heritage list, especially old town and the surrounding area. If developers had their way they'd tear down the castle and put one of their ultra modern new builds on the rock. I have to agree with Peter #77 though... not only will all these modern new builds be obsolete looking in a few years they'll all come crumbling down by the time our children are grown. Look at the New Royal Infirmary, they sold that wonderful old building (for the price of one years rent at the new one) which incidentally housed more beds for patients than the new one AND the new one costs £30 million a year in rent and sure enough it's already crumbling in too many places to count and it's only 6 years old. And to whom ever said I'd get used to it in 5 years, that's a load of rubbish, I'll never get used to looking at all the modern buildings going up where they shouldn't be. In my opinion the parliment building is a parasite especially at the bottom of the royal mile across from Holyrood palace. Somewhere else, say Glasgow, would appreciate it more.
74

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 08/02/2008 13:03:06
#79 Moscow Central 42

That PC of yours, does use valves? I am aware that Russia is quite far behind the West in these areas.

As almost all of the buildings in my vicinty are listed there is great concern amongst owners that the increased traffic flow could cause considerable staining and marking of stonework, etc. This is ofparticular concern to the owners of light coloured properties such as White Horse Close, Whitefoord House, etc.

Other than the Kremlin, there can't be many listed buildings in Moscow?

75

WKKB,

08/02/2008 13:17:41
with developers all trying to cut costs I wonder what this development would cost if they didn't cut costs and put up a top of the line build?

I'm not against new build, I just don't want to see Old Town looking like Princes Street. That was all 'new build' once and now look at it.
76

Moscow Central 42,

08/02/2008 13:18:25

No no Peter. My computer contains the very latest micro processing technology. What we cannot create we steal and replicate. I know it's not very pc but it has been a very effective policy since the Revolution.We have acquired everything from atom bombs to jet engines. And after Stalingrad we came to the conclusion thatlisted buildings were a complete waste of time.
77

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 08/02/2008 14:37:28
#83 Moscow Central 42

Nice reply MC, I like the reference to Stalingrad. It must have been a bit like the Caltongate site is now after the Germans had done with it.

As I said before, whatever replaces those old buildings can only be an improvement and I wonder how long it will be before the Calton Studio becomes housing.

Seriously though, we Old Towners are very concerned about the increase in road traffic around this area after the development becomes occupied and it's not just pollution which is bothering us. The roads here are very narrow and were probably never meant to take masses of traffic.

Anyway, we better get back to the gulag before the 'Man of Iron' gets us.

Cheers,

Peter
78

Buttress,

08/02/2008 15:46:14
Moscow:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2079655,00.html

For a downloadable copy see here:

http://www.wmf.org.uk/resources/


One of the authors is the new Director of EWHT.

79

Moscow Central 42,

08/02/2008 18:32:58
Peter
If you are referring to Joseph Stalin he was of course the " man of steel. " However, I do concede that he was far from stainless.
80

Moscow Central 42,

08/02/2008 18:39:19

Now now Buttress. You are far too impressionable for your own good. You really must learn to form your own opinions and stop referring to other websites. If you don't I may be forced to conclude that you only exist in virtual form.
81

Buttress,

08/02/2008 19:24:20
Not at all impressionable - simply very well informed... ;-)

82

gshughes,

Newcastle 08/02/2008 19:59:28
I'm not against new development on otherwise derelict land, the issue here is the pulling down of lovely old Victorian buildings. Replacing them with "The proposed landmark building by architect Malcolm Fraser for Jeffrey St" which to be honest looks to me like Torness power station would be a hugely retrograde step
83

turn10,

08/02/2008 23:04:13
~ 75 Ard Righ,The Rock Of Edinburgh 08/02/2008 10:18:58

none of the above, just glad to see Edinburgh at last getting some modern development and investment to keep it up there as the best places to live in the UK.

Get over it and move on please!
84

Buttress,

08/02/2008 23:42:45
Unfortunately, if Edinburgh does that it isn't going to be a very attractive place to live and work and visit.

Much of it is covered by listing and there are conservation areas, although it seems that councillors can ignore the national polcies which are supposed to protect those from being demolished when it suits.

Hopefully, Ministers will see sense and stop this.
85

Buttress,

09/02/2008 12:45:53
See also:
http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Caltongate-given-a-Black-mark.3761926.jp
86

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 11/02/2008 10:38:48
#86 Moscow Central 42

"Joseph Stalin he was of course the "man of steel.""

Thanks for that, it confirms something I had heard many years ago (namely that Stalin was the 'Man of Steel') and of course Stalingrad was named after him during the German seige of WWII I believe?

You might not believe this , but one of my neighbours appeared on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" some 5 or 6 years ago and the question he cashed in on was "Who was Russia's 'Man of Iron'" (Stalin being one of the options). I thought they had the question wrong at the time, now confirmed.

 

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