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Bus fare 'tram tax' on agenda in leaked proposals



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Published Date: 25 August 2008
A "TRAM tax" which would see bus fares rise to pay for an extension to Edinburgh's tram line is being considered by the city council.
A confidential report leaked to the Evening News has revealed the controversial move is seen by senior officials as one way of raising the £55 million needed to build a Roseburn to Granton spur line.

The leaked papers also show the idea of selling off the enormously successful Lothian Buses was raised, before being dismissed. The idea of increasing fares to pay for the trams will spark a furious reaction among thousands of bus passengers. Senior councillors today voiced their opposition to the idea after they were told about the private discussions by the Evening News.

Lothian Buses' chief executive Neil Renilson has also objected, saying the company "categorically" has no plans to charge passengers more to pay for the project.

A council spokesman, however, refused to rule out a "fare levy," despite confirming that selling the company was not an option.

As the majority shareholder in Lothian Buses, the council could attempt to force through such a move.

The minutes of the council's "internal planning group" – a high-level discussion between the chief executive and his most senior directors – explain that a project team has been set up to look at the tram line extension, known as phase 1b.

The spur was originally put on hold in 2006, but trams firm TIE has since secured a fixed price of £87m if it can commit to the project before next July. Money left over after paying for the main Newhaven to Edinburgh Airport line is being put towards the extension, leaving an estimated £55m shortfall.

Today, deputy council leader Steve Cardownie, who as the city's SNP leader opposed the tram project, said: "Before a passenger has even set foot on a tram, it's in trouble. If a fare levy was introduced, bus passengers would be subsidising the trams. All these things were predicted by the SNP and they are now appearing on agendas, which is very worrying." He added: "I don't normally comment on leaked reports. However, this does cause me concern.

"At the very outset of this administration, I presented a motion to council that under no circumstances would the sale of Lothian Buses be considered to make up any shortfall.

"It's disconcerting that this is even on the agenda and the SNP will do everything it can to resist this. I will be asking the chief executive why this has been raised."

The minutes of the meeting on June 11 explain that TIE finance director Stewart McGarrity is leading the 1b project team, and will report to Transport Scotland by Christmas.

In a section titled funding/options appraisal, the document lists "Lothian Buses contribution through fare levy or potential disposal" among other items, such as "prudential borrowing" and further Transport Scotland investment.

The council's chief executive, Tom Aitchison, said today: "A project team identified a broad range of options, some of which we will look at further and some of which were immediately rejected.

"The council has always been emphatic that the disposal of Lothian Buses, which is a key asset to this city, is not an option that we would wish to take forward.

"We remain absolutely committed to delivering an integrated public transport system for the city involving both trams and buses. Lothian Buses are an essential part of those plans. "

A spokesman for TIE said it was asked to look at the various options, including the potential disposal of Lothian Buses, by the council.

Labour group transport spokesman Ian Perry said today: "The administration should be making it absolutely clear to any official that this is not worth discussing and wasting their time talking about. We are absolutely opposed in principle to selling Lothian Buses." Some Tory members are known to be less opposed to a sell-off, and the group's Edinburgh transport spokesman, Mark McInnes, said it was more important to ensure that taxpayers' cash is not used to fill the funding gap. But he added: "Our manifesto commitment is to keep Lothian Buses. We would need to be convinced otherwise."

Mr Renilson said: "I can categorically confirm that (we have] no plans to increase bus fares to generate funds for the construction of the tram."


The full article contains 726 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Skip McClendon,

25/08/2008 12:13:16
Neil Renilson speak with forked tongue.
2

Skip McClendon,

25/08/2008 12:20:52
Yet more selling of the family silver to pay for the tramline. Just how much of a price will the people of Edinburgh be forced to pay for this ridiculous vanity project?
3

The Judge,

25/08/2008 12:22:57
Where did all the protrammies think the money was coming from? We can only sell off the family silver once, we can't raise the council tax, no private company touch the council with a barge pole, of course bus fares will have to rise well above their current level.

The tramLINE will always be a drain on the public purse because it doesn't go anywhere near where people want to go.
4

chico,

edinburgh 25/08/2008 12:28:37
Why are the people of Edinburgh having to pay for something they did not want in the first place.
5

Bob 2,

25/08/2008 12:38:33
TramTaxic News - well we never expected this one.

Well at least the Sth Queensferry residents wont be contributing!

Maybe FIRST will run some services, No Tram Tax for them.

What money left over from line 1a ... TIE being creative with the funds that they have available?
6

ADP,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 12:42:49
This will be the Council that tells us they do not run the company Lothian Buses when they are talking about cutting routes back.

Now they are looking for cash for the white elephant project, they are in a position to put fares up. They surely have to run the company to do that.

They have to make their minds up. Do they run Lothian Buses or do they not? Or is it only when it suits them?

As the trams are not coming near most parts of the city, why should the fare-paying passengers be subsidisng them? They should have to pay their own way or stop the build now. Look at the number of bus services that are up for the axe because they don't pay.
7

Bob 2,

25/08/2008 12:43:52
sell of a loss making firm.

And given that the "profits" from Lothian Buses were needed to prop up the trams until they were in profit

QUESTION - were will the money come from if the Trams still need proping up, if LB have been sold off?

Is this the end of Edinburgh's award winning bus company that has offered "low" fares and invested in new buses annually and seen passengers numbers increase annually.

Have TIE succeeded were FIRST failed ?

Any sell off will see fares go up and investment go down.
8

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 12:45:42
Scaremongering tactics from the EN to stir up trouble in the absence of the cost overruns predicted by the anti-tram luddites
#3 Are you having a laugh - no-one wants to go to the city centre, the Western General, Haymarket, Leith, Ocean Terminal, Airport, Granton etc? In the words of Lothian Buses, who maybe know a little about transport, the first route is "a sure-fire winner.
9

Linmal,

Livingston 25/08/2008 12:51:23
Having been brought up in Edinburgh, I love this City and am saddened to see the mess that is being made of it. I would dearly love to live in Edinburgh but can't afford it and because of this am forced to travel on Firstbus. How lucky you are to have Lothian Buses and why oh why are the powers that be doing their best to wreck an extremely good service. Your fare structure is lower than Firstbus, your buses are more comfortable and cleaner than Firstbus and they are most definitely more reliable than Firstbus. This tram fiasco really saddens me as I have yet to meet one person in this City who thinks they are necessary never mind wants them. They did away with trams in 1956 does this not tell you something? We have managed without them for the past 52 years, why do they think we need them now when Lothian Buses consistently wins prizes for being the country's best bus service? I rest my case.
10

The_Doctor,

25/08/2008 12:52:06
#8

How do you know there will be no cost over-runs? Is the project a) finished or b) barely started?
11

Liz,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 12:55:38
#8
"no-one wants to go to the city centre, the Western General, Haymarket, Leith, Ocean Terminal, Airport, Granton etc?"

Well I don't I regularly use busses across the City and I can honestly say I will rarely, if ever, need to use this tram yet my bus tickets to the other parts of the city are going to go up to subsidise it?! Why am I not surprised?

Give it a few years and I doubt Lothian Buses will be winng any awards for best bus company any more. Prices up and routes cut back.
12

Wingman,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 12:56:37
Sell off the whole Tram project to a completely private firm! oh thats not going to happen is it, it's a huge big white elephant !!!
13

Detector,

25/08/2008 12:58:22
#8 - I think you really need to see the map of the tram line and tell me that the stops are appropriate. #3 is correct to point out that the tram is not as efficient as it has been stated. Moreover, once fares rise, they will not come back down once the tram lines are in place. Only a select few people actually bought the argument that Edinburgh requires Trams - perhaps those who still favour a tram line should watch the episode of the Simpsons which deals with the Monorail! Just because Shelbyville has one is not an argument to have one yourself! However, you will pay for it in the end with increased fares to cover extensions and maintenance - and since it will be a loss-maker, you'll also have to cover those costs too! Enjoy!
14

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 12:58:40
To those of us who have at least taken the time to do some research on this project this will come as no surprise. The business plan is hopelessly optimistic.

The problem is that TIE ensured that the tram line is now wedded to the bus service, so when it starts operations and needs its £10m pa annual subsidy, what options does LB have?
15

JJH,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 13:02:15
Sorry Mr Cardownie - too late to stand up and say you didn't want them in the first place. Your lot were voted in on the understanding that you would not allow this travesty to happen - then did a complete u-turn.You and anyone else that has some common sense should put a stop to this farce now. Edinburgh is a laughing stock - a scaffolding covered, traffic jam - just a complete joke.
16

The_Doctor,

25/08/2008 13:05:44
#15

Now, I don't want anyone to accuse you of twisting the facts to support your (perfectly sound) argument...so I will just point out that Shelbyville does not have a MonoRail.

But Mr Lanley DID sell Monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook. And, by gum, it put them on the map! ;-)
17

Bob 2,

25/08/2008 13:07:46
Comment No 8

correct me but the trams will NOT STOP at the Western General, patients would need to get a shuttle bus from the tram stop at Crewe Toll.

And we were promised the fare would be around £1.30 when the trams started up.......!!!
18

Bob 2,

25/08/2008 13:11:31
line 1b, logically the Tramline would have followed the old railway line in North Edinburgh, serving more people?

Off Road, and no tramworks required on main roads, holding up/delaying public transport!

And quicker tram journies!
19

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 13:12:04
The Council have yet to come up with its current contribution to Phase 1A of up to £45m, let alone find another £55m for Phase 1B. The last Council report I saw from last December suggested that the Council would be looking to borrow £12.9m with interest payments of £1.6m falling to TEL to cover and this assumed that the developers would meet their agreed contributions (unlikely now given the downturn in the property market).

And, of course, this does not take into the account the considerable annual operating losses now anticipated with the start of operations of Phase 1A (Risk and Revenue Report, Final Business Case), arising from the combination of stalled development at the Waterfront/Granton and the downturn in the economy.

Lothian Buses' problems are likely to be bad enough just propping up Phase 1A. If Phase 1B comes in, then the situation would be dire.
20

scotsol,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 13:14:27
The chief excecutive of Lothian Buses goes on the record saying that there will be no fare increases due to the trams. And what's the take of the anti-trammers? That there will be. These hysterical morons must be every tabloid journalist's dream.
21

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 13:19:00
David Harrington (8). Lothian Buses told the Parliament that it felt Phase 1A of the tramline, assuming all things remained equal, would be a "sure fire winner" but was very scathing of a tramline from either Leith to Granton or Granton to Haymarket on the basis of insufficient patronage. It also was not asked to comment on what impact Phase 1A would have on bus services.

Bob (20) - I understand that even the dedicated shuttle service to the Western General is now unlikely as it would cost too much and that it is more probable that existing bus services on Crewe Road South would divert to the hospital's main entrance.
22

Duncan in Edinburgh,

25/08/2008 13:19:04
I would be disappointed if an internal group DIDN'T put all the options on the table when planning the city's future. But the point is that the option was not chosen! How do you expect council staff to make decisions if they can't put all possible options on the table?

This is Cardownie scaremongering, and it's time Dawe came down like a ton of bricks on this SNP turncoat who has only his own political survival in his mind.
23

The_Doctor,

25/08/2008 13:19:04
#23

Oh you poor, naive soul. You have a lot to learn about spin.

What Mr Renilson said is that they have no plans to increase bus fares for the CONSTRUCTION of the tram. But what about the OPERATION of the tram?

You need to look not just at what he said, but also at what he left out. Simple PR trickery in what Mr Renilson has said - address the bit you can answer, ignore what you cannot (or don't want to) and hope that no-one notices.
24

Bob 2,

25/08/2008 13:19:31
maybe Lothian Buses could be like the Power companies and allow people to buy 2013 ride a cards a at 2008 prices

Going Going Gone
25

Duncan in Edinburgh,

25/08/2008 13:20:24
#26 Oh, so you want the guy to rule out fare increases forever do you? And who's the naive one, exactly?

He was asked about the allegation in this article - namely that the 1b spur be paid for by increased fares - and he said that it categorically wouldn't happen.
26

The_Doctor,

25/08/2008 13:23:28
#28

Now that's spin at work. Well done Duncan. Take what I said and completely mangle it until you get something that supports your argument. A+.

Where exactly did I say that I want him to rule out (normal, inflationary) fare increases forever?
27

eric,

Lothian 25/08/2008 13:25:42
Youve got to hand it to Glasgow Subway system built over 100yrs ago.And Expansion etc.We really havent got a clue how to be a proper city.This is Amusing if nothing else.Edinburgh is being carved up in front of our eyes.And its UGLY.
28

Linda,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 13:25:53
JJH # 17, It was the combined opposition parties that forced the Tram Scheme on the minority SNP government thus taking £600 million out of public trasport system which could have been better used opening up for example the South Suburban Rail Link.
29

Bob 2,

25/08/2008 13:27:12
Sara B

Presume they are going to reinstate some of the competiting services that were going to cut along the tram route.

Suppose theres always the FIRST bus service to the Wester.

Opening bids from FIRST, who have always wanted to muscle in on Edinburghs bus routes.

They've tried in the past, but failed
30

The Judge,

25/08/2008 13:27:41
#8 re you having a laugh - no-one wants to go to the city centre, the Western General, Haymarket, Leith, Ocean Terminal, Airport, Granton etc? In the words of Lothian Buses, who maybe know a little about transport, the first route is "a sure-fire winner.

"sure fire winner"?

If that was the case private money would be fighting to invest in the tramLINE, so far not a single penny has been raised through private investment. Compare that with the South Sub which is awash with private money.

Haymarket - Already served by more than a dozen buses.

Leith - Already served by more than a dozen buses.

Ocean Terminal - Already served by the best bus company in the UK.

Airport - Already served by the excellent airport bus, the tramLINE won't go anywhere near the terminal.

Granton? Well I'll leave that one alone, I personally don't know anybody who will want to travel to Granton and it looks like the promised new developments are already in trouble.

The tramLINE was forced upon the city by a bunch of undemocratic ex councillors with the help of New Labour at Holyrood. I still haven't met a single person who wants it or will even use it when it is finished, if it ever gets built in the first place.

The tramLINE is a turkey its high time the council put an end to it. As for Wide Boy Steve put up or shut up, if you are so against the tramLINE put your deputy job on the line. No I don't think he'll do that either, remember this is a guy who changed all of his political principals for the sake a of a seat on the city council.
31

alex patersons English teacher,

25/08/2008 13:42:06
I dont get these tram taxes.
how will they do you turns onto oncoming traffic.

lochend please driver, sorry the line only goes to leith walk.
32

Spotty Geek,

Wauchope Street 25/08/2008 13:52:04
Tram tax - this is a great idea to increase bus fares -good for the ones that don't use public transport like me
33

Statsman,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 13:54:44
The tram disaster continues.
34

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

25/08/2008 13:58:31
Charge for prams and buggies on the buses. That would raise some cash.
35

Balliol II,

Dunbar 25/08/2008 14:08:02
Will someone please tell me if bus passes will be valid for the trams?
36

Tr1xx,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 14:12:07
There are some superb comments posted here, (my faves reproduced below). If only these sentiments had been discussed openly and expressed far more vociferously a couple of years ago, then maybe we'd never have got ourselves into this mess. . .

"The tramLINE will always be a drain on the public purse because it doesn't go anywhere near where people want to go."

"Why are the people of Edinburgh having to pay for something they did not want in the first place?"

"As the trams are not coming near most parts of the city, why should fare-paying bus passengers be subsidising them? They should have to pay their own way or stop the build now. Look at the number of bus services that are up for the axe because they don't pay."

"Why are the powers that be doing their best to wreck an extremely good bus service?"

"We have managed without trams for the past 52 years, why do they think we need them now when Lothian Buses consistently wins prizes for being the country's best bus service?"

"The airport is already served by the excellent airport bus; the tramLINE won't go anywhere near the terminal."

"How will trams turn onto oncoming traffic?"

"If the tram route was a 'sure fire winner', private money would be fighting to invest in the tramLINE."

etc.
37

Helmut von Knobrott,

25/08/2008 14:13:36
I can't wait for the trams, especially as they will go to Leith. As they run down the middle of the road, I can't be arrested for kerbcrawling!
38

Spotty Geek,

Wauchope Strreet 25/08/2008 14:16:39
Will someone please also tell me:

Will there be one entrance and one exit to stop kids bunking on without paying?

How will the tram lines be policed in the rougher bits (Granton and Leith) to stop attacs on the trams and damage/obstructions placed on the line?



39

Deag,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 14:17:59
A tram story and the normal "Pavlovian Dog" reaction from all the anti-tram lot.
40

alex patersons English teacher,

25/08/2008 14:23:29
43
Atacs would be useful on the trams,you could store old rubbish and suitcases up there.
41

Spotty Geek,

Wauchope Street 25/08/2008 14:24:54
45#

Thanks - would't like to be the inspector - getting beaten up by the neds getting on ast Granton
42

Statsman,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 14:29:05
44 Deag

There's nothing 'pavlovian' about it for anyone that has never approved of the daft tram scheme. I think you'll find the groundless arguments that are basically 'trams are nice and they look shiny' tend to be the ones that require repetitive brainwashing to believe.

So why do you like trams Deag? Cos' they are nice and look shiny? Woof! Woof!
43

Sleepy Fergus,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 14:32:26
#46

Ha ha, love it. Perhaps we could pop the babies and disabled up there too. Oooooooh controversial!
44

Grierson_Green,

Leith 25/08/2008 14:36:56
#33 The Judge

I'll be using it so shut your gob.

I stay near Granton and am sure that people probably less well off than youself will find the Trams a fantastic benefit.

There is no going back now - put up with it or move to Glasgow. You can then insult there less 'privilaged' - add your address to your messages so they can come round for a discussion.
45

Fido Dogstoevsky,

25/08/2008 14:37:38
44.
don't bring my species into this! I may be barking, but at least I don't salivate over something just because its big and shiny.
don't expect me to chase them, either.
46

Diana,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 15:00:38
I thought they WANTED people to take public transport? Complete idiots, the lot of them.
47

Whiskey,

25/08/2008 15:09:00
An absolute bloody shambles...this lot couldn't organise a one horse race.
48

Jambo 3,

EDINBURGH 25/08/2008 15:30:22
Make the coffin dogers pay for their travels, they are all well off - all of them - they just kid on they are paupers.

Don't see why the workers under 60 (who already get stung by the Government for tax on everything ) should have to pay extra for new tram lines.

Once that happens we will have plenty of money to have tram routes all over the city
49

Jambo 3,

EDINBURGH 25/08/2008 15:37:46
PS

And by the way make them pay full cooncil tax an' aw !

Nae point in them having a' their money in the bank, make them spend it for a' oor benefit
50

JT,

25/08/2008 15:42:15
Its a shame that these councillors who have found their voices didnt stop this stupid idea of trams before the work started. Time for residents to vote in people who are actually going work for the people not profit makers. I dont think we are going to hear the last of this, people of Edinburgh prepare for more price hikes and service cuts.
51

Iona Bicycle,

25/08/2008 15:42:25
Edinburgh's selfish and dangerous car owners should be paying for the trams, not bus passengers. The council should increase the cost of parking permits.
52

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 15:43:12
Easy solution - charge the tram passengers a commercially viable level of fare. I'm sure all the 'progressives' who think this utterly useless project actually has some worth will be happy to fork out £20 or so per single journey.
53

Leila,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 15:52:28
Raising bus fares to pay for a tram extension is a stupid idea since it's hardly likely to get more passengers onto the buses. However, look at who's making the suggestion: the project team is headed by TIE's finance director, who is presumably motivated by wanting to keep himself and his colleagues in a job.
54

Lang Spoon,

Leith 25/08/2008 16:23:39
The suggestion was apparently made at a "high level planning group" comprising the chief executive and his senior directors.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't our council run by our ELECTED councillors? Officials should carry out decisions made by councillors, not do their own thing!
55

booth2327,

pilton 25/08/2008 16:27:39
the council is undermining the best bus company in the uk.the current cuts are due to the extra wages being paid because of the tramworks.then the council tells lothian buses to stop axing services and reduce staff numbers.mayble the council should pay for the extra drivers wages.now we told its considering selling lothian buses or raising fares to pay for a train set that is useless.the council are making lothian buses a weak company who be ready to be picked off by the likes of frist bus.lothian buses are a small company but are increasing being weakened by the council. i come from west yorkshire who at one time had a bus service as good as the service provided by lothian buses however it was sold off to frist who in the space of 15 years or so have reduced it to a skelton service of what it was once was. you can see the differents in the fleets in edinburgh between frist and lothian.people in edinburgh should fight for lothian and stop the council ruining another fine thing of edinburgh
56

alex patersons English teacher,

25/08/2008 16:31:36
61
frist things frist, is this skelton service exclusive to north yorkshire.
57

Jambo4ever,

25/08/2008 16:36:27
Can someone please tell me what the real point of these trams will be in Edinburgh?

And also if Lothian Buses were to sell up, does this mean the current service would be no more?
58

Think Tank,

25/08/2008 16:39:36
As usual a tram story creates several completely misinformed posts about the tram scheme that could be corrected by an even cursory look at www.tramtime.com. It's really embarrassing to argue against the very basics of tram technology that runs successfully in over 200 cities across the globe. REALLY embarrassing.

More scaremongering from the story itself which can be distilled down into this:

- Funding plans discussed
- Proposal document produced giving several alternatives (from agreeable ones not mentioned in article to "SELL LOTHIAN BUSES"- obviously cited by article).

It's only a standard planning document common to virtually every planning decision known to man.


Believe it or not anti-tram people, there will be several SNP planning documents that discuss the potential impact of dropping plans for independence. It's simply scandalous. If you lack intelligence.
59

Reality Cheque,

25/08/2008 16:55:56
#64. I am very keen on trams and agree with you that they are run successfully in over 200 cities across the globe. However, those cities do not have the misfortune to be run by Edinburgh City Council.

A lot of folk would give trams the benefit of the doubt until they saw how they worked in practice, except the way this project has been mismanaged can only lead a reasonable person to conclude that Edinburgh's trams will be a Scottish Parliament on rails: delivered late, hideously overbudget and uneconomic to run.
60

The Tin Man,

25/08/2008 17:07:29
Current price of fare from S. Edinburgh to Leith = 1.10

After trams, same journey = 2.20 + change of transport at Princes St.
61

The Tin Man,

25/08/2008 17:10:25
#57 Iona

They are increasing parking premit costs. Also paying to install speed-bumps on cycle-paths.
62

rs,

..of a comment 25/08/2008 17:19:17
think tank

if the EN published only good news stories, a few things would happen

There would be nothing to Comment on

The EN would sell less copies
The EN would probably go bust!

Like many, we've got nothing against the trams in Principle.

Its the total mismanagement of the scheme from day 1 and the way TIE have been allowed to close roads at a whim, no questions asked.

And look at the state of Edinburgh's Award Winning Bus Service, caused by the TRAM project..
63

rs,

in ma house 25/08/2008 17:20:02
no 60 welcome to the real world ...do you think the councilors run the council !!
64

Wullie Coyote,

25/08/2008 17:33:32
If my bid had succeeded, the trams would be rocket powered, cutting the Princes Street to Airport time down to five minutes!
65

traprain,

25/08/2008 17:35:51
I can't understand all this fuss about the trams. Just follow the example of Sheffield. They spent £300Mn on their system which then went into operation losing £250,000 per month. Answer, sell the system to Stagecoach for £1 and lobby the government to refund the £300Mn. Fortunately a few months later the Labour government was elected and they paid up. Problem is that, if by a miracle, this bungling Labour government is still in power when the tram system is completed they won't be able to afford to pay.
66

Duncan in Edinburgh,

25/08/2008 17:40:16
Yet more comments here on the basis that a fare rise has been suggested. IT HASN'T. Read the bloody article - this is nothing but Steve Cardownie causing trouble. No-one has suggested bus fares paying for tram routes; in fact, the option has been RULED OUT.
67

Norman Tebbit,

25/08/2008 17:47:43
71. When the Conservatives are returned to power, these loss-making Labour transport initiatives will be closed down. And if there are no other economic alternatives, then the citizens of Edinburgh will have to get pedalling.
68

Euan,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 17:50:52
It is clearly obvious that the morons who pushed this ludicrous tram project through are worrying their pants off as to how on earth it is going to be paid for.

For someone to even suggest selling Lothian Buses off to help pay for this fiasco just shows their desperation.

The tram line is an absolutely disgusting waste of public money, and now they are trying to rob the people who did not even want trams in the first place of more hard-earned cash in order to try and pay for it!!

Even if the trams are ever completed, I for one shall never be setting foot on them out of principle.

We should scrap the whole project now and cut our losses on this money-gulping monstrosity.






69

Bleeding Heart...,

25/08/2008 17:55:29
Presumably what we should infer from the article is that the Council will at some stage (not perhaps surprisingly) have to consider how best to raise additional necessary revenues.

I suggest that one way NOT to do this is to surcharge those who are most likely least able to pay for this.

Perhaps the Council might consider looking elsewhere.

For example, maybe those who rake-in significant profits from our mega-successful Festivals might be among those better-placed to contribute more?

Just a thought...
70

E300,

25/08/2008 18:21:43
Brian Souter at Stagecoach will be assessing how long before he can step in (at minimum cost) to sort out the sorry mess in which this project will inevitably end up and run the Edinburgh tram system profitably for the benefit of Stagecoach. I notice that as one of the few people(perhaps only person) in country with experience of running extensive bus and tram networks he has kept well clear of involvement, so far.
71

Reality Cheque,

25/08/2008 18:41:51
#74. "I for one shall never be setting foot on them out of principle."

Well said! If the idiots responsible for the trams won't listen, then why should we accept their stupidity by using them?
72

Lala Land,

25/08/2008 18:51:18
Don't you have to be clever to run a tram project?
I'm sure it will turn out ok in the end.
73

rs,

. of a project 25/08/2008 19:55:04
comment 78

loaded question .....but NO

given the competence of the Tram Project workers from day 1.

remember the lot that forgot to add something as a simple as inflation to the bid.

74

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 20:09:56
I predicted this over a year ago - no one bothered listening to me - and gave me abuse. But look how right I was. The lib/dems are known for selling off a councils best assets and wasting the money. Several years ago they took charge of a city in England, and the first thing they did was sell off the city's own telephone company. Then wasted the money they raised. Now the Edinburgh lot are now selling off Lothian Buses - well I warned you all months prior to the elections - yet the muppets voted for the clowns - now look what you have done - ruined a wonderful bus company. Some folk moan about the bus service now - watch what will happen after it is sold off - it will be dire. You only have yourself to blame - perhaps if you had listened to the voice of experience, these clowns wouldn't have had the chance to sell it off. I warned you - and you failed to listen. You made your bed - now lie in it.
75

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 20:18:37
Why can't the car driver pay for the tram line? Force them to pay a congestion charge - it will be fully paid in days - since every car driver need stheir car so much, and public transport is not an option!
76

Iona Bicycle,

25/08/2008 20:38:42
81. A brilliant idea. They should pay for the new Forth Bridge too.
77

jdships,

25/08/2008 20:49:59
9 The Genuine Mario Antoinette,
"Just a load of nonsense really. "

Absolutely spot on : the whole concept of trams in Edinburgh certainly is nonsense.
Well said !!

I imagine a few years down the road the tram system will get sold off at a knock down price !
78

Andrew,

25/08/2008 20:50:52
81/82 - AND the Waverley route - AND the reopening of the South Suburban line to passengers - AND out to Loanhead/Penicuik (train or tram, I don't mind) etc etc
79

Slightly Cynical,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 21:07:10
So the latest wheeze may well be to ask bus folk whose direct journey across town will become a lengthier bus-tram-bus journey to pay for something that will be bad for them.
What's next sending turkeys a tax demand so we can afford Christmas.
80

rs,

in ma house 25/08/2008 21:10:16
80 gorgie_Tony,Edinburgh

Remember when Edinburgh sold off its share of the Gyle Shopping centre (under labour if I remember correctly).

Same thing....wasted with nothing to show for it.. was it going to pay for the west Edinburgh CERT bus route ... millions wasted ... nothing to show for it !!
81

James (1),

25/08/2008 21:44:36
Its only fair that those using the public transport pay for it. Just up the prices because really what are the public going to do about it? That right, nothing! Everyone wants the trams apparently. The trams are going to cure so much and bring so much to Edinburgh. The trams will reduce congestion and this will be done by cutting bus services. Look on it as an investment. By that I mean you will be investing your money into keeping the trams afloat. Trams lose money = cut a bus route or raise fares. There are two sides to the coin here. Those who will make millions out of this installation and those who will pay millions to keep "white elephant tram line" going.
Still its only money.
82

Julian.,

edinburgh 25/08/2008 22:03:28
The Judge,

"The tramLINE will always be a drain on the public purse because it doesn't go anywhere near where people want to go."

Great. I really love you anti-tram guys. Your non-sensical statements make you such an easy target.

So no-one wants to go to the airport, the gyle shopping centre, princes street, murrayfield stadium, ocean terminal, leith walk, edinburgh park or the other dozen residential neighbourhoods inbetween?
83

Julian.,

edinburgh 25/08/2008 22:15:21
James(1),

"what are the public going to do about it"

Well, there is a small matter of an election in 2 and a half years. The last one saw incompetents booted out to great effect. Something the currrent admin should bear in mind.

EUAN,

hey, good to see you back. I really think you should go back and read the article. Firstly, it says the idea of selling the buses was raised and then rejected. Secondly, it wasn't even to pay for the current tram line; it was for the spur which hasn't even got the go ahead. But I don't suppose that's what you wanted to hear.
84

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 25/08/2008 22:46:52
So many people in Edinburgh calling for someone to take responsibility and stop this folly now. Huge waste of money to turn back , huge loss of face for so many, but so much more to lose by continuing.
85

Against crooked Councilors,

26/08/2008 02:05:10
Its about time the Scottish Goverment scrapped this overspent fiasco. Im not paying more bus fares just to bail out useless Councilors. As I remember if it goes over budget the SNP promised to scrap it.
86

Against crooked Councilors,

26/08/2008 02:27:58
There should also be a public inquiry why Edinburgh Citizens never got the option to vote if they wanted Trams.
87

Against crooked Councilors,

26/08/2008 02:41:53
What does TIE really stand for, Tearing Infrastructures in Edinburgh
88

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 05:55:02
Tram scheme is being built to encourage folk to use public transport, but meanwhile we'll put the bus fares up to finance it.
Such visionary planning.
89

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 05:56:43
81 - the congestion charged was voted oot, Tony, remember ?
90

Pilrig.,

Livingston 26/08/2008 05:58:46
82 - abolish the car, bring back the horse & cart, back to the 19th century !
91

Spotty Geek,

Wauchope Street 26/08/2008 09:34:40
Can't see the point of the trams - certainly not much good if you live in south Edinburgh
92

Leila,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 09:41:49
#89 Julian: "the article ... says the idea of selling the buses was raised and then rejected."

Not quite. What Tom Aitchison really said was "the disposal of Lothian Buses, which is a key asset to this city, is not an option that we would wish to take forward." If he meant to rule out a sell off, he would say something like "under no circumstances would we sell off Lothian Buses". But he didn't.
93

Old Cartha Boy,

26/08/2008 09:53:31
Anyone got an update on what has been spent so far on this scheme, and whether there is any cash left in the kitty for finish it?
94

The Judge,

26/08/2008 11:08:04
#88 Julian

Which mode of transport takes you closer to the following.

Airport?
Bus
Murrayfield?
Bus
Ocean Terminal?
Bus
Leith?
Too many buses to list
Gyle Shopping Centre?
Bus
Edinburgh Park?
Bus
Princess St?
Too many buses to list
Residential neighbourhoods?
Bus

Why would you get the more expensive tram when a bus will take you closer to your final destination? A lot of you protramies forget how few tram stops there will actually be on the route. Yes the tram will be quicker but you will either have to walk or get a bus to your final stop unless you're lucky enough to be going where the tram stops.
95

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 12:38:41
#100, agree wholeheartedly. Julian's Tramorak wittering @88 prompts me to point out that Murrayfield holds 67,000 spectators. The Tram's contribution to either arrival or dispersal would be negligible. Anyone who knows anything about Murrayfield would tell you that the bulk of the crowd walks to/from the city centre anyway.
96

Old Cartha Boy,

26/08/2008 13:05:10
If Julian #88 really wanted to make a valid point, why did he quote areas/destinations already well, if not over served, by buses? The No 22 reaches, or is near to, almost all the destinations he quotes. And as for fans using trams leaving Murrayfeld .....not before the 6 Nations 2015 is my bet, if ever.
97

Tr1xx,

Edinburgh 26/08/2008 13:59:14
What's the odds that the airport shuttle buses will be substantially cut back if or when the trams eventually start serving the airport. My nearest tram stop is well over a mile's walk. The current airport shuttle bus stops nearly outside my door. Ah well, I guess I'll just get a friend to take me there and back by car.
98

Julian.,

edinburgh 26/08/2008 22:24:24
#100, #101, #102,

Calm down guys. Did you actually read my full posting?

I was simply rebutting the statement that the trams don't go anywhere people want to go...Which is utter tosh.

The fact that buses go these places as well is a completely separate issue.

But while we're on that subject, Judge asks whether I would prefer to take a tram or a bus. Answer: Tram. And I bet I see you on it as well in 2011. And Judge, thanks for another ridiculous anti-tram statement that you'd have to get another bus from your tram stop. Tram stops will be 300m apart so the most you'd have to walk would be 150m...hardly worth a bus trip.
99

Ian down under,

Kawerau 28/08/2008 01:00:17
we are all getting fatter so walking for a tram is a positive health benefit. will save the NHS millions if more did this.
come on you lot, you are getting the start of a decent transport system, let it grow and you'll be amazed at the improvements in the city. this happens anywhere ther is investment in decent rail-based transport.
100

World class concrete,

28/08/2008 09:36:09