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'Outraged' mums launch campaign against bus firm's no-pram policy



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Published Date: 28 July 2008
ANGRY mums have launched a campaign to force Lothian Buses to abandon its controversial ban on prams.
Local politicians have joined the protest which is seeking to reverse the decision by bus bosses to outlaw prams to keep space for wheelchair users.

Bus drivers have been told not to allow prams on board so that the company complies with the Disability Discrimination Act.

But unhappy parents claim they are the ones being discriminated against and have now enlisted the support of Edinburgh West MP John Barrett and MSP Margaret Smith to help fight the restrictions.

Caroline Burgess, 27, from Drumbrae, plans to start a petition if they do not get a satisfactory response.

She has written to the Scottish Parliament's transport department and is being supported by dozens of other mums who have contacted her through the local website, www.netmums.com

She said: "I'm absolutely reliant on public transport. I couldn't believe it when they said they weren't carrying prams.

"I'm not going to stop until this is changed. I only found out two weeks ago when I was refused permission to get on a number 26 bus. I was really, really upset. It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest putting a baby on my knee instead.

"I'd get off the bus if someone came on in a wheelchair. But I've only had to do that once in more than 100 bus journeys."

Lothian Buses says it has to refuse prams in line with anti-discrimination legislation. Passengers on the Capital's buses can only take on buggies which can fold up if a wheelchair users needs the space.

The company says it is not a new rule, but many drivers did not enforce it until recently.

Gillian Richards, a mother of nine-month-old twins from Willowbrae, said she was "outraged".

She said: "I would get off if a disabled person needed the space, but I have only ever seen one disabled passenger.

"We are not permitted in a taxi as my daughters would need car seats.

"I believe that my daughters' rights are as important as that of a disabled person."

A spokesman for the bus company said: "This is not Lothian Buses' decision. It is government legislation, as laid down by the Disability Discrimination Act.

"It's always been in our conditions of carriage, but we have just given a clarification to our drivers."

But bus company First South East & Central Scotland, part of the First Group, said prams and buggies are allowed to board their low-floored buses, provided there is space available.

Margaret Smith, the Edinburgh West MSP, has now written to Lothian Buses asking if the company can find a compromise.

She said: "This is a real shame when we are trying to encourage people to use public transport more. I appreciate that they are under a legal obligation, and that it is important to ensure wheelchair users can use their buses conveniently, but I do think that it is very difficult for parents travelling with a number of young children not to use buggies or prams."


The full article contains 520 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 July 2008 10:10 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 13:22:00
Lothian Buses says it has to refuse prams in line with anti-discrimination legislation. Passengers on the Capital's buses can only take on buggies which can fold up if a wheelchair users needs the space.

But bus company First South East & Central Scotland, part of the First Group, said prams and buggies are allowed to board their low-floored buses, provided there is space available.

Sounds Like the same Policy?


Gillian Richards, a mother of nine-month-old twins from Willowbrae, said she was "outraged......"I believe that my daughters' rights are as important as that of a disabled person."

Ms Richards, "SELFISH" ? ...just think your TWINS will be able to walk onto a bus when they are Older.
A PERSON in a wheelchair has a life sentence and will still be in their wheelchair.
Hoping that a space will be available on the bus for them, or have to wait for the next bus in hope..think about it?.

2

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 13:22:01
Perhaps we could also have child-free areas in restaurants so that we can enjoy a civilised meal in peace without the 'yummy-mummy complete with screaming brats who are the most important people here' brigade?
3

Mike Hunt,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 13:22:17
I think the comments about the twins not being allowed in taxis may be wrong. I seem to remember that you CAN take children in taxis, but you need to hold babies in your arms and children need to use an adult seatbelt.
4

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 28/07/2008 13:24:11

These outraged mums need to chill out and think this one through.

A pram on the bus is a danger to

1. The mum (outraged or otherwise)
2. Other passengers

And most importantly:

The occupant of the pram.
5

john3,

28/07/2008 13:26:28
Thank goodness at last LRT has the power to refuse prams. What happened to lifting your own child now and then. I saw the first easy boarding for a wheelchair yesterday in Moira Terrace and having seen wheelchairs refused because of selfish mothers in the past I was happy. The prams got bigger and bigger so Mum can sit on the mobile with all messages safely stowed aboard.
They built the buses for wheelchairs not prams.
6

john3,

28/07/2008 13:27:45
By the way has she tried walking with her pram? Bob #2
made a very valid point. She is not diabled now she is grown up.
7

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:28:35
Tomorrow's news will have "Mum's need to stop whinging about Prams!" article.

What next ban children from everywhere?

Why don't all those who want us to stop whinging, get a variety of prams with one of those reborn babies and try out getting on the bus and see the attitude you get. Why both can't have equal rights by LB having buses like they do down south which can accommodate up to 7 wheelchairs or buggies/prams and you'd find no one was whinging
8

,

28/07/2008 13:29:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Artemis,

28/07/2008 13:32:04
#1 - you're right, it does sound like the same policy.

What did mothers do before wheelchair accessible buses? Oh, that's right - they folded the pushchair up and held the child on their knee, or they walked. Why can't they do that now?
10

Artemis,

28/07/2008 13:32:43
#8 - what difference does their marital status make?
11

Furious,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 13:33:08
I can't understand all this hoo ha. The law states there must be space for a wheelchair user. When someone with a pram/buggy gets on the drivers politely point out that the pram/buggy will need to be folded or leave the bus if a wheelchair user is getting on. The law gives them priority.

Thats the easy part.

The hard part is making parents/carers realise its the law. They dont have a choice and NEITHER do Lothian Buses.

If the parents want to change the law then yes go ahead and try thats what disabled people had to do. But meantime use the space if it is available and not if a wheelchair user needs it. (and yes I am a parent with children)

SIMPLE
12

,

28/07/2008 13:36:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Mikey,

28/07/2008 13:37:31
She lived in Willowbrae. Why not just walk into town? She surely doesn't go into town each day, does she? Another whinger that thinks everybody should support her kids!

Fair do's to the bus company. Prams are a danger on a busy bus!

14

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:38:46
#9 I used the train as it was much safer as I could keep my children in their buggies or their pram rather than having the incident 2 weeks ago when the driver did an emergency stop and I had to grab hold of my 2 school age kids before they both got hurt. Plus it works out cheaper to go on the train return than 2 bus journeys and only takes 11 minutes

#8 And what does marital status matter? Just because a mother isn't married doesn't mean she's not in a long term relationship. That's just rudeness on your behalf.
15

Salvatori,

28/07/2008 13:40:05
2 - What? Shock! Horror! Mum and children in a restaurant? How dare they carry out a normal life - Hermitage the Victorian is hungry and wants fed in peace.

Tell you what, why don't you just order a carry out and be done with it?
16

Sarcasm,

28/07/2008 13:41:44
Angry and outraged sarcastic sod launches campaign to rid Lothian buses of selfish mothers and their precocious children.

Local polititians have yet to back the campaign.

An angry petition will be launched soon.
Details can be found at www.whynotbuyabuggy.com.
17

Jenny MacArthur,

28/07/2008 13:41:46
This is utter nonsense. You might as well ban anyone from boarding in a wheelchair on the grounds that it will take away a wheelchair space and so prevent other wheelchair users from getting on.
18

Giraffe,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 13:43:03
No. 11 - totally agree.

But as usual there is the usual bunch of folk out there telling mum's to walk with their buggy/pram - why should they. Not everyone has a car and most would probably depend on the bus - hence using the bus in the first place. Mum's (& Dad's) with young babies are normally knackered so who would then want to walk a few miles home and on the other hand why should they be stuck in the house all day if they need to go into town for something. This argument could go on all day - there are no rights or wrongs here just some folks very opinionated comments on the matter, a bit of common sense all round is all that's required.
19

Salvatori,

28/07/2008 13:44:37
13 - Great logic Mikey - how do you know her final destination was the centre of town?
20

hibbyspurs,

28/07/2008 13:44:37
#1

What a total tube you are. YOu obviously dont have children...

I believe both those interviewed said they would gladly give up the space for a wheelchair user? Hardly selfish now is it?

You obviously havent ever had to handle a young child on your knee who is tired & restless either have you?

To make the comparrison about "life scentences" is just silly as well. We all understand that those confined to a wheelchair will be so confined for the rest of their lives. Sad as that is does that mean that mothers (or indeed fathers) who wish to take their kids from say Portobello to the Zoo for a day trip should be denied travel on the number 26 bus?

If the answer to that is yes then as far as I'm concerned thats an act of discrimination. "sorry, we cant take you because a wheelchair user MIGHT get on in a few stops time".... Why not "Please be aware that should a wheelchair user require the space your pram is taking up you'll either need to fold it down and sit the child beside you or on your knee or you'll need to vacate the bus and wait for the next one which can accomodate you"?

To hide behind legislation is just stupid and wrong. I salute first bus who obviously have a more acceptable social conscience and understand the needs of ALL their prospective passengers instead of just cow towing to the politically correct brigade.

I'm pleased I hardly ever have to use a bus to carry my kids if this is LB's attitude towards families. I'll continue to use my car instead!
21

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:46:32
Well said #20
22

Alba-Hibs,

28/07/2008 13:47:27
its OK, she can use a tram, soon-ish
23

Hector the Red,

28/07/2008 13:47:47
Edinburgh Council wants you to use the bus but Lothian Buses (part owned by the council) wants to discriminate and select who they want on their buses. Surely a conflict of interests. What's the Council's stance on this then?
24

Hector the Red,

28/07/2008 13:50:38
Like all walks of life it should be first come first served!
25

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:52:12
#22 but will she be able to get on to the tram or will they only habe 1 disabled space as well.

#23 as for the council, well they'll say one thing but mean another. They're not too hot on children the council.

Surprised that Phil Wheeler hasn't said anything to be honest. He's normally first up there with something to say on transport issues. Is he on holiday?
26

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/07/2008 13:52:34
Hurrah - about time too - get all these lazy mums and dads walking - what's wrong with that

I have two children who are older now but I was never able to take their prams on buses and it did me no harm. I just gave myself longer for the walking journey from Leith where I stayed to any part of town I needed to get to.

It isn't difficult ! honestly, it's just one leg in front of the other - easy!!


27

Hoof Hearted,

Upstairs at the back having a fag 28/07/2008 13:53:04
#14. So your obnoxious little darlings weren't sitting properly in their seats or holding onto the many grab rails available, or in other words they were running riot on the bus and irritating all the full fare paying passengers. It is you who is the rude one. I rest my case.
28

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:58:03
#27 I forgot you were on the bus that day with us! Actually they were sat in a seat together with me sat behind them having paid the fare for all 3 of us. My children have never run riot on a bus when with me. While with their class at school well who knows but I've yet to see a child misbehave on a bus and that includes 16 years of working with children. As for your case, you don't have one. If you think me rude for instilling manners in my children and good behaviour while out and about, then take a look at your attitude towards the next generation as why should they respect you when you have no respect for them?
29

Salvatori,

28/07/2008 13:59:06
26 - How many hours did you set aside to walk from Leith to Colinton?
30

Hoof Hearted,

Half way down the stairs 28/07/2008 14:02:01
#28. I never travel by bus. I always use the car.
31

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/07/2008 14:02:26
~29 - unfortunately I never had the pleasure -

However my point is that I could not at that time take the pram on the bus, I never had a car and so if I did want to go anywhere I had to walk - end of - no miserable excuses!

32

,

28/07/2008 14:02:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:04:36
But #27 never gets on a bus as they use their car. Says it all really. They have no clue about getting on buses or the travel.
34

Ima Stoner,

HIGH Street, edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:06:28
I remember when people taking buggies on buses usually folded them up before getting on and leaving them in the luggage space - and there was room for more than one folded up buggie.

I reckon that people with prams should try walking a bit further than the bus stop, it's good for the bairn too! People in wheelchairs don't have the choice, they should definitely be given priority on the buses.
35

Salvatori,

28/07/2008 14:08:45
Fair do's - I chose to walk most places with my kids if I can - this isn't always possible though is it? Nothing like a brisk walk from Leith to Colinton.

"Let's see... appointment at 9am, so hmmm, better leave at 6am that should give me plenty of time."

"Finishes at 12, hmmm get back for 3 no bother."

"Wait a minute... I could just take the bus, there's a novel thought."
36

CarolineB,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:08:56
Just for the record I am married - however I fail to realise what that has to do with the price of fish!

I want to be able to use the bus - why shouldn't I be able to?

The argument centres around the “foldabilty” of baby transport system. My point is that my baby is safe in the car seat on the chassis on a pram as it would also be in a buggy.

Buggies are allowed because in principle they can be stowed safely elsewhere on the bus. My new born baby cannot be stowed safely elsewhere on the vehicle!

Would you put a new born baby on your knee in a car? Probably not - given it's illegal. Why should i have to put my baby in danger on the bus.

My travel system cannot be folded in one – this is why I am unable to use Lothian buses. I am more than happy to get off the bus should a wheelchair user require the space. I really can’t see what the big problem is.

My baby is a member of the public and deserves the safety. Putting a newborn baby on your knee really whilst unrestrained in transit isn't safe.

Some people seem to view babies and families as an inconvenience. We must all remember that every single one of us started out as a baby. The public is made up of lots of different people – babies, children, able bodied people, disabled people , elderly people – to name but a few. All people have the right to be able to use public services – of which public transport is one.

I don't mind people having different opinions and I’m not adverse to a good debate however please do not insult others and hide behind on line personas to do so.
37

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:09:11
#34 the old luggage spaces were fab when I was a child. Now you have the danger that when the driver does an emergency stop it then falls on top of the poor passenger who is sitting in the seat next to it. I used to take my daughter's buggy into the seat with me but then I got whinged at for taking up too much room. Baby on knee, buggy in front of us. Hence why we used the train. The conductors were much nicer and the driver always waves and smiles at us! That little bit courtesey goes a long way.
38

Hoof Hearted,

Tynecastle 28/07/2008 14:09:45
#32. Good to see you have no predisposed views and don't want to pigeon hole those with Down's syndrome. Truly, you should be ashamed of yourself.
39

I love to eat Sellotape,

28/07/2008 14:09:57
20.

"cow towing to the politically correct brigade"

They're towing cows to a brigade?
40

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 28/07/2008 14:11:40
Is this another woman seeking any excuse to get " compensation " ??
41

Madame Ecosse,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:12:41
The Scottish Parliament does not have a Transport department. The Scottish GOVERNMENT, however, does.

Shoddy journalism.
42

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:12:50
#40 there's never been a mention of compensation, more a chance to get a bus with a young child and be treated fairyly
43

hibbyspurs,

Waiting in vain for a No26 with space for the bugg 28/07/2008 14:14:30
#34

I agree with you in general. However if there is no wheelchair user on the bus then why shouldnt a pram/ buggy utilise the space?

I'm sure most with children would agree also that should a wheelchair user wish to use the bus then the pram/ buggie has to be folded down and put in the luggage space.

The problem with the people on this board seems to be that children arent allowed to speak or get upset on a bus, parents arent allowed to travel from one side of the city to the other unless they walk (take the 26 - Preston Pans to Clermiston..... Thats some walk!!!)...

These are also the "full fare paying passengers" who when seated on a full bus and see the old lady with the walking stick getting on look at the ceiling, out the window, at the floor, in their paper, in fact anywhere other than the person in case they might have to give up their "fully paid" seat to an infrim person, but they dont count as they arent in a wheelchair you see & "I've paid full price for my seat".
44

,

28/07/2008 14:14:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

hibbyspurs,

28/07/2008 14:21:06
#38

No, it is you who should be ashamed as your comment leads us to believe that any child making noise shouldnt be allowed on a bus.

I merley use the example of an unfortunate child with Downs syndrome to highlight how stupid your original comment was.

I will however pigeon hole you as an irritating bam who has no idea about parenthood, childhood or indeed life in general.

To any who felt my use of a disabled child to make my point was distasteful I apologise but I felt it necessary to highlight how stupid, bigoted & discraminative the poster in question is.
46

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:22:35
I'm actually interested in something else.

Not all disabled children are in wheelchairs but may use buggies so what would Lothian Buses policy be then? I know of 2 or 3 children with special needs who use apparatus at home to help them move but are still in buggies just now. Don't those children have the same rights to get on a bus like a disabled adult? Or should parents who have cars just use them instead?
47

GR,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:24:24
"The company says it is not a new rule, but many drivers did not enforce it until recently"

I would put it this way:

Driver says to Mum with Buggy - "there is space so you can come aboard - but you will have to give the space up for a disabled passenger getting on board"

Mum replies:

Of course I will, no problem.

PROBLEM SOLVED - LRT GIVE YOUR DRIVERS MORE TRAINING
48

YummyMummy,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:25:05
Some people are so narrow minded

How can you say to people "just walk"? How long would it take to walk from the ERI to Baberton for example?
I've never met one person who would refuse to give up the allocated space for a wheelchair user if they were using it for their children. I know i would never refuse.
And in this day and age people are so impaitent they would probably moan if you took a couple of minutes to fold up the buggy and get everything orginised.
At the end of the day, times are changing so i dont think we need any of the "back in my day.." stories.

And just to confirm, children DO NOT need to be in a carseat to travel in a taxi and they allow double buggies.
49

hibbyspurs,

28/07/2008 14:26:02
#47

Not that hard that....

That would be silly though as it involves common sense..
50

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 14:29:28
no.1 - First and LRT do not have the same policy - first allow prams and LRT do not. The two ladies in the article said they would give their seats up for a wheelchair - in what way shape or form is this selfish?

no. 4 - a pram on the bus is a danger to no one with the brakes on, much like a wheelchair. Infact a pram is the safest mode of transport for a newborn.

no.5 - sitting with a baby on your lap on the bus is unsafe. If you have seen wheelchairs refused due their being a buggy or pram on the bus this is down the driver. They built buses for PEOPLE, all people, whether they walk or wheel onto the bus.

no.6 have you ever tried walking from Musselburgh to Edinburgh when the trains are cancelled? with a couple of toddlers in tow? I challenge you.

no.8 - your point is? But if you had bothered to look, the lady in the picture has a wedding ring on, I thought the pictures would have been the easiest part for you.

no.9 - because this is an unsafe method of transporting children. A lot of things 'used to happen in my day'. Doesn't make it right.

no.13 - how do you know she was going into town from willowbrae? prams are not a danger on buses.

no.16. A newborn should not be in a buggy, unless it is reclined flat. This is against the rules according to LRT, the child must be sitting upright. Have you ever tried to sit a newborn upright in a buggy?

no.26, Lieth is more or less in the centre of town, what if you lived further out of town? i.e tranent? would you walk then?

no.34 - people in wheelchairs ARE given priority, no one is saying they should not. All people are saying is that if the space is empty it should be allowed to be used.

no.40 - no one wants compensation, we want to be able to PAY to get on the bus.


I am a mother of two children aged 1 and 3, I am also pregnant. I get the bus every morning too and from work with my children, my youngest still in a buggy as there is a 20 minutes walk at the other end of the
51

Skip McClendon,

Not on the bus 28/07/2008 14:31:28
Misrepresenting the Disability Discrimation act as an excuse to discriminate against children is s shameful act by Lothian Buses. Just another example of how the UK is just about the least child-friendly country on earth.

And, of course, we get the usual child-hating sociopaths posting their hate-filled rants about "other people's brats" and the like. Utterly pathetic.

Young children and babies are not old enough to sit unaided on seats in public transport. Having them sit on their parents' knee is profoundly unsafe. The safest place for them to be on a bus would be in a secure, specialist seat. But, of course, car seats are not allowed on buses either (and even if they were, there are no seats belts to secure them) and it would cost Lothian Buses money to install their own. So, when using buses, the safest place for young children to be is secured in a buggy or pram.

Fair enough - if the space is required for a wheelchair user, then any non-folding pram or buggy should have to vacate the bus. I do not see anyone arguing that point. But to refuse to allow young children to use public transport in a safe and comfortable manner by hiding behind the terms of the DDA is shameful. In reality, Lothian Buses have taken this approach for one reason only - because it requires the least effort for them. Taking another approach would probably involve investing money in new equipment or training for drivers. Can't have that - much easier just to discriminate against those in society too young to answer back.
52

hibbyspurs,

28/07/2008 14:32:28
#48

Thats the real issue here most likely. LB dont want prams/ buggies on because if a wheelchair user then wants on the bus all the "full fare paying passengers" will have their journies delayed by a few minutes as the poor mother or father has to take the child out, fold the buggy up and stow it away so the wheelchair can get in.

Of course whilst your folding up the buggy with the bairn in your arms or holding your hand, take a look around at all the childless, discrimanatory "full fare" passengers who'll be muttering to themselves about how long your taking whilst they look at the floor, out the window, into their paper, rather than offer to lend a hand as because you have children your obviously a sl&g, benifit cheat, unemployed, sponger, etc. etc. etc.

How do they come to this assumption? Ohhh aye, purely because you have children....

What a sad life some people lead eh?
53

amother,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:33:13
i have four kids three of them were under 16 months at same time (one then twins) i walked if i had to go any place. i had no one to watch them so had no choice did me no harm. one of my twins and my youngest are disabled both used a large buggy (wheelchair) wouldn't even try and get on a bus. no point.
54

YummyMummy,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:36:34
#53

Why would there be no point?
55

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 14:38:08
no.53 - the fact it may have done you no harm is quite irrelevant, would you have walked with all these children from tranent to edinburgh every day? I think not.

Just because the buses were even more rubbish a few years back does not make it right going back to those days.
56

,

28/07/2008 14:46:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 14:51:15
Not that it's any of your business but yes I am, all my children have the same father, I work and study at the same time, I also do volunteer work, I was never a teenage mother nor did I come close. I just never learned to drive as we have such a 'good' transport system! The irony!

Anyway, are you married? I hope your not hitting on a married woman....
58

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 14:51:42
#56

That was clearly a typo. The lady in question made a series of excellent, well argued points.

You have responded by picking her up on a typo, where she transposed two letters in a word.

People who pick up typos in people's comments are tawts. That was also a typo.
59

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 14:53:05
oh, did I make a typo? therefore I presume that reflects on my marital status.....
60

Hoof Hearted,

28/07/2008 14:53:37
When you are lost in London
And you don't know where you are,
You'll hear my voice a-calling:
'Pass further down the car!'
And very soon you'll find yourself
Inside the Terminus
In a London Transport
Diesel-engined
Ninety-seven horse-power
Omnibus!

Along the Queen's great highway
I drive my merry load
At twenty miles per hour
In the middle of the road;
We like to drive in convoys
We're most gregarious;
The big six-wheeler
Scarlet-painted
London Transport
Diesel-engined
Ninety-seven horse-power
Omnibus!

Earth has not anything to show more fair!
Mind the stairs! Mind the stairs!
Earth has not anything to show more fair!
Any more fares? Any more fares?
When cabbies try to pass me,
Before they overtakes,
I sticks me flippin' hand out
As I jams on all me brakes!
Them jackal taxi-drivers
Can only swear and cuss,
Behind that monarch of the road,
Observer of the Highway Code,
That big six-wheeler
Scarlet-painted London Transport
Diesel-engined
Ninety-seven horse-power
Omnibus!

I stops when I'm requested
Athough it spoils the ride,
So he can shout: 'Get aht of it!
We're full right up inside!'

We don't ask much for wages,
We only want fair shares,
So cut down all the stages,
And stick up all the fares.
If tickets cost a pound apiece
Why should you make a fuss?
It's worth it just to ride inside
That thirty-foot-long by ten-foot-wide, Inside that monarch of the road,
Observer of the Highway Code,
That big six-wheeler
Scarlet-painted
London Transport
Diesel-engined
Ninety-seven horse-power
Omnibus!
61

YummyMummy,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:54:23
Actually.. If LB are still running 'old style' buses without wheelchair access, isn't that still being against DDA's policy? Thats funny, the 18 from the ERI (isn't that ironic?) to the gyle is an older style bus. Think LB need to use the new style buses on ALL routes before banning prams to make themselfs look more wheelchair user friendly don't you think?!
62

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 14:55:53
yes that's right yummymummy, they have until 2015 to have 100% of their buses wheelchair accessible.
63

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:56:44
#56 What does #50's marital status matter to you? Do you fancy a date with a married pregnant woman!!! :-/

If you don't use buses, you don't have children, why are you so bothered, or do you just love a good debate?
64

Linmal,

Livingston 28/07/2008 14:57:30
Know what the problem is here? You got it - most people are selfish and that goes for the disabled as well. Sorry this isn't very PC. However, to make my point. A few weeks ago I got on a bus in Livingston during the day. There were very few passengers at the time (about three or four) and we were all sitting in the front seats. An elderly lady (and I use the term lady loosely) got on the bus. Before anyone could offer their seat she created a huge fuss "I need that seat - these seats are for disbled passengers, etc, etc." I had actually seen the "lady" about to get on the bus and had made a mental note to let her have my seat. As it happens a young girl was a bit quicker than I. This "lady" did not even have the good grace to say thank you. Normally I would not have said anything but I'm fed up with people being rude so I told her in no uncertain terms that she was a disgrace and a bad example to the children who were sitting at the back. I also told her that there was never any question of her being offered a suitable seat but if I saw her coming again I wouldn't bother moving (I probably would as I'm not that rotten). The trouble with nowadays is that everyone expects things as a right and good manners seem to have gone out of the window. In the past people with prams simply got on the bus and were very reluctant to move which is why I think this ban is now being enforced. It is the old old story, abuse it and you lose it. I have actually seen very few wheelchair users on the buses and I travel seven days a week. So basically, it is your own fault, be more gracious to your fellow man/woman and the world will not only be a nicer place but you will be treated with consideration too.
65

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 14:58:43
#63

Yes, he's a master debater. Or something like that.
66

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:59:29
#61 I live on the bus routes for the 12, 21 and 32 and not one of them is a wheelchair accessible. If I walk towards Broomhouse I can get a 22 or St John's Road lets me on to the 26 or 31. But it's still a fair walk, especially for someone who may use walking sticks or crutches.
67

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:00:35
#65 thanks for letting me know.
68

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 15:00:51
sorry Linmal, I'm not sure I'm getting your point. Should we now ban old people from buses too?
69

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:04:45
#68, best to ban everyone then no discrimination then ;-).
70

Hmmm!!!!,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 15:06:42
When I was a young kiddie (at least 27 years ago) my mum or dad usually took me and my brother on and off the bus with a pram folded up. People are simply too lazy nowadays to fold down a pram. Come on mums, get your finger out. My dad is in a wheelchair and before this policy came in was sat at a stop for a hour till he could get on because of prams.
71

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 15:06:51
yep, probably in everyones best interests if everyone walks everywhere - especially those fare dodging elderly ladies and gentlemen. and those under 5's - GRRRRR!
72

YummyMummy,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 15:07:33
If 'selfish mother/fathers' wont give up the space, surely the driver has the right to tell them to get off the bus, as they would of there was an unruly bunch of teenagers running riot. If thats the case, where's the problem?
Wheelchair users should be clued up that they DO have priority over that space, people with pushchairs should know they may need to give up the space should a wheelchair user need it and driver should know this also. If everyone knew where they stood we wouldn't be having this debate in my opinion
73

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 15:08:23
no 70 - again, that is the fault of the driver, he should have asked the parents with prams to move for your father.

No one is saying we don't want to fold our prams - but getting them on the bus in the first place would be a good start!
74

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 15:10:14
#72

Exactly right. But then the drivers would have to actualy speak to their passengers, rather than ignore them or grudgingly grunt at them as is often the case at present. A little bit of money invested in customer service training, et viola! Problem disappears.
75

Hoof Hearted,

Part-route King's Road 28/07/2008 15:10:40
And I've never understood why kids only pay half fare.

OK if they are babes-in-arms and don't take up a seat, but a toddler takes up a whole seat in the same way as an adult. In fact at least the adults don't stand on the seats like all the kids do. There should really be a surcharge for the little beggars which would be used to clean the seats.

It's not as if they don't have the money - they always have the latest fashions, iPods, mobile phones etc, so why can't unaccompanied (by an adult) kids over about 8 years old pay full fare?

And it's always kids that throw stones at buses, grafitti the backs of the seats and slash the seat cushions. What is wrong with this country that we seem happy to accept this sort of behaviour?
76

celtic4,

USA 28/07/2008 15:10:55
I am glad all my children are grown. And I can rent a car to travel Scotland.
77

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:11:07
#70

As i just said, thats the drivers fault for not telling the person with the pram to fold it down or get off to be perfectly honest.

#71
Haha! So true.. instead of banning prams, just ban buses... now, there's a thought eh!
78

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:12:52
#75

I'm assuming you think obese people should pay for 2 seats then?

79

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 15:13:08
#75

- Maybe they only throw stones at the bus you are on, as they have heard it is carrying a child-hating nutter.
80

Hoof Hearted,

Getting de-vaulted 28/07/2008 15:14:53
#66. The low-floor buses are the newest ones. Why would LRT want to use them on routes that go to the worst schemes? As more new buses get delivered the older low-floor ones will eventually dribble down onto the 12, 21 and 32. It's just good business sense.
81

amother,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 15:17:03
in answer to yummy mummy to much stress. have enough stress just looking after my kids by myself (yes not married) had one partner, before anyone asks (and none since)walking my two disabled boys down the street with all the stares. children pointing and smurking is stressfull enough ta. what people don't get is my children have feelings to. if i turn round and swear at the cheeky get. i am scum?
82

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:19:49
#80

You wouldn't know good business sense if it knocked you down as you seem to lack common sense.
What difference would it make where it goes? "cause maybe kids will throw stones at it"? #79 seems to have cleared that problem up for you
83

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:23:04
#81

Bringing up children is stressful (i'm also a single parent, so do your worst haters) and even more so if they are disabled. The point being made is that you have a right to public transport as much as the next person! As long as you are being the best mother you can be, other peoples opinions shouldn't make a difference to you.
84

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:23:44
#75 when was the last time you got a bus. Under 5's don't pay to get on the bus. 5-15 year olds pay the 60p. I still take my 5 year old on to my knee if the bus is busy and he's paid his fare. As for kids over 8 travelling on their own on a bus. I'm very unlikely to allow my daughter to do that until she's heading to high school.
85

,

28/07/2008 15:24:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:26:18
Ah so the 12 is a scummy route is it. Starts at the gyle through corstorphine, town and then down to leith.
87

amother,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 15:26:50
to 85 your mum should have
88

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 15:27:42
#85

If your mother had followed that advice, I don't think she would have deprived the world of a brain surgeon.
89

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 15:28:04
Well in that case Raoul, perhaps you should read through the debate before commenting with uneducated and illitterate responses.

No one has said they will fold their buggy up - DOH!
90

Maisie from Morningside,

28/07/2008 15:28:56
Back in the good old days we had 'go-chairs' which folded into a neat light size when you wanted to store them or get on a bus.
The modern equivalent resembles those bathchairs you see in old Broons cartoons and seem to be controlled by individuals who believe that they're the only people on the planet.
91

James (1),

28/07/2008 15:29:19
Between certain hours wheel chair users should not be give priority on buses. (How un PC is that? Wait, it gets worse)
Mothers with their prams get priority. Times might be one hour before schools starts, ending after school commences. The same at the end of school hours.
Now if a disabled person wants to use the bus at those times then no priority is given to them.
Outwith those hours priority is given to disabled.
It the same with old people who get on the bus at the end of a working day and take up all the places.
They have all day to do their shopping but no they need to travel at peak times.
The other alternative is to make prams and buggies banned and if you cannot look after your child then you cannot get on the bus.
92

Don't believe the hype.,

Embra 28/07/2008 15:29:48
Lothian Buses "conditions of carraige" clearly states "No prams" It is not a new rule. I'd hate to be a wheelchair user in this city. It's full of selfish halfwits that can't read and don't understand that rules and regulations are there to protect them.........from themselves!!!
93

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 15:30:23
oops - another typo! - no has said that they will NOT fold their buggy up. And the majority of people will get off the bus with a pram to make room for a wheelchair, if they refuse, then it's up to the driver to remove them

Why do some people think they are above reading the whole debate before 'contributing'?
94

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 15:33:51
no. 92.

And where are those 'conditions of carriage' displayed then? somewhere easy and accessible for all to see? NO!

And if that was such a hard and fast rule, why have drivers not been enforcing it?
95

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:36:15
#92

I'm sorry but how many wheelchair users do you know that actually use the bus? I have to say i personally dont know any however, i think they are well out numbered with the amount of parents who use buses, so why can't everyone use them? I use buses alot and i think i've only ever seen one person in a wheelchair get on (in which case she got priority over a mum with a pram), so i dont see what the big deal is
96

Don't believe the hype.,

Embra 28/07/2008 15:38:55
# 94

same place as you pick up a timetable. Hanover st or waverley bridge. Best get yersel up to speed before you start a debate.
97

I love to eat Sellotape,

28/07/2008 15:43:27
Squirt-guns are the way forward.