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'Outraged' mums launch campaign against bus firm's no-pram policy

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Published Date: 28 July 2008
ANGRY mums have launched a campaign to force Lothian Buses to abandon its controversial ban on prams.
Local politicians have joined the protest which is seeking to reverse the decision by bus bosses to outlaw prams to keep space for wheelchair users.

Bus drivers have been told not to allow prams on board so that the company complies with the Disability Discrimination Act.

But unhappy parents claim they are the ones being discriminated against and have now enlisted the support of Edinburgh West MP John Barrett and MSP Margaret Smith to help fight the restrictions.

Caroline Burgess, 27, from Drumbrae, plans to start a petition if they do not get a satisfactory response.

She has written to the Scottish Parliament's transport department and is being supported by dozens of other mums who have contacted her through the local website, www.netmums.com

She said: "I'm absolutely reliant on public transport. I couldn't believe it when they said they weren't carrying prams.

"I'm not going to stop until this is changed. I only found out two weeks ago when I was refused permission to get on a number 26 bus. I was really, really upset. It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest putting a baby on my knee instead.

"I'd get off the bus if someone came on in a wheelchair. But I've only had to do that once in more than 100 bus journeys."

Lothian Buses says it has to refuse prams in line with anti-discrimination legislation. Passengers on the Capital's buses can only take on buggies which can fold up if a wheelchair users needs the space.

The company says it is not a new rule, but many drivers did not enforce it until recently.

Gillian Richards, a mother of nine-month-old twins from Willowbrae, said she was "outraged".

She said: "I would get off if a disabled person needed the space, but I have only ever seen one disabled passenger.

"We are not permitted in a taxi as my daughters would need car seats.

"I believe that my daughters' rights are as important as that of a disabled person."

A spokesman for the bus company said: "This is not Lothian Buses' decision. It is government legislation, as laid down by the Disability Discrimination Act.

"It's always been in our conditions of carriage, but we have just given a clarification to our drivers."

But bus company First South East & Central Scotland, part of the First Group, said prams and buggies are allowed to board their low-floored buses, provided there is space available.

Margaret Smith, the Edinburgh West MSP, has now written to Lothian Buses asking if the company can find a compromise.

She said: "This is a real shame when we are trying to encourage people to use public transport more. I appreciate that they are under a legal obligation, and that it is important to ensure wheelchair users can use their buses conveniently, but I do think that it is very difficult for parents travelling with a number of young children not to use buggies or prams."


The full article contains 520 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 July 2008 10:10 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 13:22:00
Lothian Buses says it has to refuse prams in line with anti-discrimination legislation. Passengers on the Capital's buses can only take on buggies which can fold up if a wheelchair users needs the space.

But bus company First South East & Central Scotland, part of the First Group, said prams and buggies are allowed to board their low-floored buses, provided there is space available.

Sounds Like the same Policy?


Gillian Richards, a mother of nine-month-old twins from Willowbrae, said she was "outraged......"I believe that my daughters' rights are as important as that of a disabled person."

Ms Richards, "SELFISH" ? ...just think your TWINS will be able to walk onto a bus when they are Older.
A PERSON in a wheelchair has a life sentence and will still be in their wheelchair.
Hoping that a space will be available on the bus for them, or have to wait for the next bus in hope..think about it?.

2

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 13:22:01
Perhaps we could also have child-free areas in restaurants so that we can enjoy a civilised meal in peace without the 'yummy-mummy complete with screaming brats who are the most important people here' brigade?
3

Mike Hunt,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 13:22:17
I think the comments about the twins not being allowed in taxis may be wrong. I seem to remember that you CAN take children in taxis, but you need to hold babies in your arms and children need to use an adult seatbelt.
4

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 28/07/2008 13:24:11

These outraged mums need to chill out and think this one through.

A pram on the bus is a danger to

1. The mum (outraged or otherwise)
2. Other passengers

And most importantly:

The occupant of the pram.
5

john3,

28/07/2008 13:26:28
Thank goodness at last LRT has the power to refuse prams. What happened to lifting your own child now and then. I saw the first easy boarding for a wheelchair yesterday in Moira Terrace and having seen wheelchairs refused because of selfish mothers in the past I was happy. The prams got bigger and bigger so Mum can sit on the mobile with all messages safely stowed aboard.
They built the buses for wheelchairs not prams.
6

john3,

28/07/2008 13:27:45
By the way has she tried walking with her pram? Bob #2
made a very valid point. She is not diabled now she is grown up.
7

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:28:35
Tomorrow's news will have "Mum's need to stop whinging about Prams!" article.

What next ban children from everywhere?

Why don't all those who want us to stop whinging, get a variety of prams with one of those reborn babies and try out getting on the bus and see the attitude you get. Why both can't have equal rights by LB having buses like they do down south which can accommodate up to 7 wheelchairs or buggies/prams and you'd find no one was whinging
8

,

28/07/2008 13:29:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Artemis,

28/07/2008 13:32:04
#1 - you're right, it does sound like the same policy.

What did mothers do before wheelchair accessible buses? Oh, that's right - they folded the pushchair up and held the child on their knee, or they walked. Why can't they do that now?
10

Artemis,

28/07/2008 13:32:43
#8 - what difference does their marital status make?
11

Furious,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 13:33:08
I can't understand all this hoo ha. The law states there must be space for a wheelchair user. When someone with a pram/buggy gets on the drivers politely point out that the pram/buggy will need to be folded or leave the bus if a wheelchair user is getting on. The law gives them priority.

Thats the easy part.

The hard part is making parents/carers realise its the law. They dont have a choice and NEITHER do Lothian Buses.

If the parents want to change the law then yes go ahead and try thats what disabled people had to do. But meantime use the space if it is available and not if a wheelchair user needs it. (and yes I am a parent with children)

SIMPLE
12

,

28/07/2008 13:36:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Mikey,

28/07/2008 13:37:31
She lived in Willowbrae. Why not just walk into town? She surely doesn't go into town each day, does she? Another whinger that thinks everybody should support her kids!

Fair do's to the bus company. Prams are a danger on a busy bus!

14

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:38:46
#9 I used the train as it was much safer as I could keep my children in their buggies or their pram rather than having the incident 2 weeks ago when the driver did an emergency stop and I had to grab hold of my 2 school age kids before they both got hurt. Plus it works out cheaper to go on the train return than 2 bus journeys and only takes 11 minutes

#8 And what does marital status matter? Just because a mother isn't married doesn't mean she's not in a long term relationship. That's just rudeness on your behalf.
15

Salvatori,

28/07/2008 13:40:05
2 - What? Shock! Horror! Mum and children in a restaurant? How dare they carry out a normal life - Hermitage the Victorian is hungry and wants fed in peace.

Tell you what, why don't you just order a carry out and be done with it?
16

Sarcasm,

28/07/2008 13:41:44
Angry and outraged sarcastic sod launches campaign to rid Lothian buses of selfish mothers and their precocious children.

Local polititians have yet to back the campaign.

An angry petition will be launched soon.
Details can be found at www.whynotbuyabuggy.com.
17

Jenny MacArthur,

28/07/2008 13:41:46
This is utter nonsense. You might as well ban anyone from boarding in a wheelchair on the grounds that it will take away a wheelchair space and so prevent other wheelchair users from getting on.
18

Giraffe,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 13:43:03
No. 11 - totally agree.

But as usual there is the usual bunch of folk out there telling mum's to walk with their buggy/pram - why should they. Not everyone has a car and most would probably depend on the bus - hence using the bus in the first place. Mum's (& Dad's) with young babies are normally knackered so who would then want to walk a few miles home and on the other hand why should they be stuck in the house all day if they need to go into town for something. This argument could go on all day - there are no rights or wrongs here just some folks very opinionated comments on the matter, a bit of common sense all round is all that's required.
19

Salvatori,

28/07/2008 13:44:37
13 - Great logic Mikey - how do you know her final destination was the centre of town?
20

hibbyspurs,

28/07/2008 13:44:37
#1

What a total tube you are. YOu obviously dont have children...

I believe both those interviewed said they would gladly give up the space for a wheelchair user? Hardly selfish now is it?

You obviously havent ever had to handle a young child on your knee who is tired & restless either have you?

To make the comparrison about "life scentences" is just silly as well. We all understand that those confined to a wheelchair will be so confined for the rest of their lives. Sad as that is does that mean that mothers (or indeed fathers) who wish to take their kids from say Portobello to the Zoo for a day trip should be denied travel on the number 26 bus?

If the answer to that is yes then as far as I'm concerned thats an act of discrimination. "sorry, we cant take you because a wheelchair user MIGHT get on in a few stops time".... Why not "Please be aware that should a wheelchair user require the space your pram is taking up you'll either need to fold it down and sit the child beside you or on your knee or you'll need to vacate the bus and wait for the next one which can accomodate you"?

To hide behind legislation is just stupid and wrong. I salute first bus who obviously have a more acceptable social conscience and understand the needs of ALL their prospective passengers instead of just cow towing to the politically correct brigade.

I'm pleased I hardly ever have to use a bus to carry my kids if this is LB's attitude towards families. I'll continue to use my car instead!
21

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:46:32
Well said #20
22

Alba-Hibs,

28/07/2008 13:47:27
its OK, she can use a tram, soon-ish
23

Hector the Red,

28/07/2008 13:47:47
Edinburgh Council wants you to use the bus but Lothian Buses (part owned by the council) wants to discriminate and select who they want on their buses. Surely a conflict of interests. What's the Council's stance on this then?
24

Hector the Red,

28/07/2008 13:50:38
Like all walks of life it should be first come first served!
25

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:52:12
#22 but will she be able to get on to the tram or will they only habe 1 disabled space as well.

#23 as for the council, well they'll say one thing but mean another. They're not too hot on children the council.

Surprised that Phil Wheeler hasn't said anything to be honest. He's normally first up there with something to say on transport issues. Is he on holiday?
26

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/07/2008 13:52:34
Hurrah - about time too - get all these lazy mums and dads walking - what's wrong with that

I have two children who are older now but I was never able to take their prams on buses and it did me no harm. I just gave myself longer for the walking journey from Leith where I stayed to any part of town I needed to get to.

It isn't difficult ! honestly, it's just one leg in front of the other - easy!!


27

Hoof Hearted,

Upstairs at the back having a fag 28/07/2008 13:53:04
#14. So your obnoxious little darlings weren't sitting properly in their seats or holding onto the many grab rails available, or in other words they were running riot on the bus and irritating all the full fare paying passengers. It is you who is the rude one. I rest my case.
28

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 13:58:03
#27 I forgot you were on the bus that day with us! Actually they were sat in a seat together with me sat behind them having paid the fare for all 3 of us. My children have never run riot on a bus when with me. While with their class at school well who knows but I've yet to see a child misbehave on a bus and that includes 16 years of working with children. As for your case, you don't have one. If you think me rude for instilling manners in my children and good behaviour while out and about, then take a look at your attitude towards the next generation as why should they respect you when you have no respect for them?
29

Salvatori,

28/07/2008 13:59:06
26 - How many hours did you set aside to walk from Leith to Colinton?
30

Hoof Hearted,

Half way down the stairs 28/07/2008 14:02:01
#28. I never travel by bus. I always use the car.
31

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/07/2008 14:02:26
~29 - unfortunately I never had the pleasure -

However my point is that I could not at that time take the pram on the bus, I never had a car and so if I did want to go anywhere I had to walk - end of - no miserable excuses!

32

,

28/07/2008 14:02:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:04:36
But #27 never gets on a bus as they use their car. Says it all really. They have no clue about getting on buses or the travel.
34

Ima Stoner,

HIGH Street, edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:06:28
I remember when people taking buggies on buses usually folded them up before getting on and leaving them in the luggage space - and there was room for more than one folded up buggie.

I reckon that people with prams should try walking a bit further than the bus stop, it's good for the bairn too! People in wheelchairs don't have the choice, they should definitely be given priority on the buses.
35

Salvatori,

28/07/2008 14:08:45
Fair do's - I chose to walk most places with my kids if I can - this isn't always possible though is it? Nothing like a brisk walk from Leith to Colinton.

"Let's see... appointment at 9am, so hmmm, better leave at 6am that should give me plenty of time."

"Finishes at 12, hmmm get back for 3 no bother."

"Wait a minute... I could just take the bus, there's a novel thought."
36

CarolineB,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:08:56
Just for the record I am married - however I fail to realise what that has to do with the price of fish!

I want to be able to use the bus - why shouldn't I be able to?

The argument centres around the “foldabilty” of baby transport system. My point is that my baby is safe in the car seat on the chassis on a pram as it would also be in a buggy.

Buggies are allowed because in principle they can be stowed safely elsewhere on the bus. My new born baby cannot be stowed safely elsewhere on the vehicle!

Would you put a new born baby on your knee in a car? Probably not - given it's illegal. Why should i have to put my baby in danger on the bus.

My travel system cannot be folded in one – this is why I am unable to use Lothian buses. I am more than happy to get off the bus should a wheelchair user require the space. I really can’t see what the big problem is.

My baby is a member of the public and deserves the safety. Putting a newborn baby on your knee really whilst unrestrained in transit isn't safe.

Some people seem to view babies and families as an inconvenience. We must all remember that every single one of us started out as a baby. The public is made up of lots of different people – babies, children, able bodied people, disabled people , elderly people – to name but a few. All people have the right to be able to use public services – of which public transport is one.

I don't mind people having different opinions and I’m not adverse to a good debate however please do not insult others and hide behind on line personas to do so.
37

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:09:11
#34 the old luggage spaces were fab when I was a child. Now you have the danger that when the driver does an emergency stop it then falls on top of the poor passenger who is sitting in the seat next to it. I used to take my daughter's buggy into the seat with me but then I got whinged at for taking up too much room. Baby on knee, buggy in front of us. Hence why we used the train. The conductors were much nicer and the driver always waves and smiles at us! That little bit courtesey goes a long way.
38

Hoof Hearted,

Tynecastle 28/07/2008 14:09:45
#32. Good to see you have no predisposed views and don't want to pigeon hole those with Down's syndrome. Truly, you should be ashamed of yourself.
39

I love to eat Sellotape,

28/07/2008 14:09:57
20.

"cow towing to the politically correct brigade"

They're towing cows to a brigade?
40

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 28/07/2008 14:11:40
Is this another woman seeking any excuse to get " compensation " ??
41

,

28/07/2008 14:12:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:12:50
#40 there's never been a mention of compensation, more a chance to get a bus with a young child and be treated fairyly
43

hibbyspurs,

Waiting in vain for a No26 with space for the bugg 28/07/2008 14:14:30
#34

I agree with you in general. However if there is no wheelchair user on the bus then why shouldnt a pram/ buggy utilise the space?

I'm sure most with children would agree also that should a wheelchair user wish to use the bus then the pram/ buggie has to be folded down and put in the luggage space.

The problem with the people on this board seems to be that children arent allowed to speak or get upset on a bus, parents arent allowed to travel from one side of the city to the other unless they walk (take the 26 - Preston Pans to Clermiston..... Thats some walk!!!)...

These are also the "full fare paying passengers" who when seated on a full bus and see the old lady with the walking stick getting on look at the ceiling, out the window, at the floor, in their paper, in fact anywhere other than the person in case they might have to give up their "fully paid" seat to an infrim person, but they dont count as they arent in a wheelchair you see & "I've paid full price for my seat".
44

,

28/07/2008 14:14:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

hibbyspurs,

28/07/2008 14:21:06
#38

No, it is you who should be ashamed as your comment leads us to believe that any child making noise shouldnt be allowed on a bus.

I merley use the example of an unfortunate child with Downs syndrome to highlight how stupid your original comment was.

I will however pigeon hole you as an irritating bam who has no idea about parenthood, childhood or indeed life in general.

To any who felt my use of a disabled child to make my point was distasteful I apologise but I felt it necessary to highlight how stupid, bigoted & discraminative the poster in question is.
46

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:22:35
I'm actually interested in something else.

Not all disabled children are in wheelchairs but may use buggies so what would Lothian Buses policy be then? I know of 2 or 3 children with special needs who use apparatus at home to help them move but are still in buggies just now. Don't those children have the same rights to get on a bus like a disabled adult? Or should parents who have cars just use them instead?
47

GR,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:24:24
"The company says it is not a new rule, but many drivers did not enforce it until recently"

I would put it this way:

Driver says to Mum with Buggy - "there is space so you can come aboard - but you will have to give the space up for a disabled passenger getting on board"

Mum replies:

Of course I will, no problem.

PROBLEM SOLVED - LRT GIVE YOUR DRIVERS MORE TRAINING
48

YummyMummy,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:25:05
Some people are so narrow minded

How can you say to people "just walk"? How long would it take to walk from the ERI to Baberton for example?
I've never met one person who would refuse to give up the allocated space for a wheelchair user if they were using it for their children. I know i would never refuse.
And in this day and age people are so impaitent they would probably moan if you took a couple of minutes to fold up the buggy and get everything orginised.
At the end of the day, times are changing so i dont think we need any of the "back in my day.." stories.

And just to confirm, children DO NOT need to be in a carseat to travel in a taxi and they allow double buggies.
49

hibbyspurs,

28/07/2008 14:26:02
#47

Not that hard that....

That would be silly though as it involves common sense..
50

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 14:29:28
no.1 - First and LRT do not have the same policy - first allow prams and LRT do not. The two ladies in the article said they would give their seats up for a wheelchair - in what way shape or form is this selfish?

no. 4 - a pram on the bus is a danger to no one with the brakes on, much like a wheelchair. Infact a pram is the safest mode of transport for a newborn.

no.5 - sitting with a baby on your lap on the bus is unsafe. If you have seen wheelchairs refused due their being a buggy or pram on the bus this is down the driver. They built buses for PEOPLE, all people, whether they walk or wheel onto the bus.

no.6 have you ever tried walking from Musselburgh to Edinburgh when the trains are cancelled? with a couple of toddlers in tow? I challenge you.

no.8 - your point is? But if you had bothered to look, the lady in the picture has a wedding ring on, I thought the pictures would have been the easiest part for you.

no.9 - because this is an unsafe method of transporting children. A lot of things 'used to happen in my day'. Doesn't make it right.

no.13 - how do you know she was going into town from willowbrae? prams are not a danger on buses.

no.16. A newborn should not be in a buggy, unless it is reclined flat. This is against the rules according to LRT, the child must be sitting upright. Have you ever tried to sit a newborn upright in a buggy?

no.26, Lieth is more or less in the centre of town, what if you lived further out of town? i.e tranent? would you walk then?

no.34 - people in wheelchairs ARE given priority, no one is saying they should not. All people are saying is that if the space is empty it should be allowed to be used.

no.40 - no one wants compensation, we want to be able to PAY to get on the bus.


I am a mother of two children aged 1 and 3, I am also pregnant. I get the bus every morning too and from work with my children, my youngest still in a buggy as there is a 20 minutes walk at the other end of the
51

Skip McClendon,

Not on the bus 28/07/2008 14:31:28
Misrepresenting the Disability Discrimation act as an excuse to discriminate against children is s shameful act by Lothian Buses. Just another example of how the UK is just about the least child-friendly country on earth.

And, of course, we get the usual child-hating sociopaths posting their hate-filled rants about "other people's brats" and the like. Utterly pathetic.

Young children and babies are not old enough to sit unaided on seats in public transport. Having them sit on their parents' knee is profoundly unsafe. The safest place for them to be on a bus would be in a secure, specialist seat. But, of course, car seats are not allowed on buses either (and even if they were, there are no seats belts to secure them) and it would cost Lothian Buses money to install their own. So, when using buses, the safest place for young children to be is secured in a buggy or pram.

Fair enough - if the space is required for a wheelchair user, then any non-folding pram or buggy should have to vacate the bus. I do not see anyone arguing that point. But to refuse to allow young children to use public transport in a safe and comfortable manner by hiding behind the terms of the DDA is shameful. In reality, Lothian Buses have taken this approach for one reason only - because it requires the least effort for them. Taking another approach would probably involve investing money in new equipment or training for drivers. Can't have that - much easier just to discriminate against those in society too young to answer back.
52

hibbyspurs,

28/07/2008 14:32:28
#48

Thats the real issue here most likely. LB dont want prams/ buggies on because if a wheelchair user then wants on the bus all the "full fare paying passengers" will have their journies delayed by a few minutes as the poor mother or father has to take the child out, fold the buggy up and stow it away so the wheelchair can get in.

Of course whilst your folding up the buggy with the bairn in your arms or holding your hand, take a look around at all the childless, discrimanatory "full fare" passengers who'll be muttering to themselves about how long your taking whilst they look at the floor, out the window, into their paper, rather than offer to lend a hand as because you have children your obviously a sl&g, benifit cheat, unemployed, sponger, etc. etc. etc.

How do they come to this assumption? Ohhh aye, purely because you have children....

What a sad life some people lead eh?
53

amother,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:33:13
i have four kids three of them were under 16 months at same time (one then twins) i walked if i had to go any place. i had no one to watch them so had no choice did me no harm. one of my twins and my youngest are disabled both used a large buggy (wheelchair) wouldn't even try and get on a bus. no point.
54

YummyMummy,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:36:34
#53

Why would there be no point?
55

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 14:38:08
no.53 - the fact it may have done you no harm is quite irrelevant, would you have walked with all these children from tranent to edinburgh every day? I think not.

Just because the buses were even more rubbish a few years back does not make it right going back to those days.
56

,

28/07/2008 14:46:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 14:51:15
Not that it's any of your business but yes I am, all my children have the same father, I work and study at the same time, I also do volunteer work, I was never a teenage mother nor did I come close. I just never learned to drive as we have such a 'good' transport system! The irony!

Anyway, are you married? I hope your not hitting on a married woman....
58

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 14:51:42
#56

That was clearly a typo. The lady in question made a series of excellent, well argued points.

You have responded by picking her up on a typo, where she transposed two letters in a word.

People who pick up typos in people's comments are tawts. That was also a typo.
59

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 14:53:05
oh, did I make a typo? therefore I presume that reflects on my marital status.....
60

Hoof Hearted,

28/07/2008 14:53:37
When you are lost in London
And you don't know where you are,
You'll hear my voice a-calling:
'Pass further down the car!'
And very soon you'll find yourself
Inside the Terminus
In a London Transport
Diesel-engined
Ninety-seven horse-power
Omnibus!

Along the Queen's great highway
I drive my merry load
At twenty miles per hour
In the middle of the road;
We like to drive in convoys
We're most gregarious;
The big six-wheeler
Scarlet-painted
London Transport
Diesel-engined
Ninety-seven horse-power
Omnibus!

Earth has not anything to show more fair!
Mind the stairs! Mind the stairs!
Earth has not anything to show more fair!
Any more fares? Any more fares?
When cabbies try to pass me,
Before they overtakes,
I sticks me flippin' hand out
As I jams on all me brakes!
Them jackal taxi-drivers
Can only swear and cuss,
Behind that monarch of the road,
Observer of the Highway Code,
That big six-wheeler
Scarlet-painted London Transport
Diesel-engined
Ninety-seven horse-power
Omnibus!

I stops when I'm requested
Athough it spoils the ride,
So he can shout: 'Get aht of it!
We're full right up inside!'

We don't ask much for wages,
We only want fair shares,
So cut down all the stages,
And stick up all the fares.
If tickets cost a pound apiece
Why should you make a fuss?
It's worth it just to ride inside
That thirty-foot-long by ten-foot-wide, Inside that monarch of the road,
Observer of the Highway Code,
That big six-wheeler
Scarlet-painted
London Transport
Diesel-engined
Ninety-seven horse-power
Omnibus!
61

YummyMummy,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 14:54:23
Actually.. If LB are still running 'old style' buses without wheelchair access, isn't that still being against DDA's policy? Thats funny, the 18 from the ERI (isn't that ironic?) to the gyle is an older style bus. Think LB need to use the new style buses on ALL routes before banning prams to make themselfs look more wheelchair user friendly don't you think?!
62

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 14:55:53
yes that's right yummymummy, they have until 2015 to have 100% of their buses wheelchair accessible.
63

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:56:44
#56 What does #50's marital status matter to you? Do you fancy a date with a married pregnant woman!!! :-/

If you don't use buses, you don't have children, why are you so bothered, or do you just love a good debate?
64

Linmal,

Livingston 28/07/2008 14:57:30
Know what the problem is here? You got it - most people are selfish and that goes for the disabled as well. Sorry this isn't very PC. However, to make my point. A few weeks ago I got on a bus in Livingston during the day. There were very few passengers at the time (about three or four) and we were all sitting in the front seats. An elderly lady (and I use the term lady loosely) got on the bus. Before anyone could offer their seat she created a huge fuss "I need that seat - these seats are for disbled passengers, etc, etc." I had actually seen the "lady" about to get on the bus and had made a mental note to let her have my seat. As it happens a young girl was a bit quicker than I. This "lady" did not even have the good grace to say thank you. Normally I would not have said anything but I'm fed up with people being rude so I told her in no uncertain terms that she was a disgrace and a bad example to the children who were sitting at the back. I also told her that there was never any question of her being offered a suitable seat but if I saw her coming again I wouldn't bother moving (I probably would as I'm not that rotten). The trouble with nowadays is that everyone expects things as a right and good manners seem to have gone out of the window. In the past people with prams simply got on the bus and were very reluctant to move which is why I think this ban is now being enforced. It is the old old story, abuse it and you lose it. I have actually seen very few wheelchair users on the buses and I travel seven days a week. So basically, it is your own fault, be more gracious to your fellow man/woman and the world will not only be a nicer place but you will be treated with consideration too.
65

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 14:58:43
#63

Yes, he's a master debater. Or something like that.
66

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 14:59:29
#61 I live on the bus routes for the 12, 21 and 32 and not one of them is a wheelchair accessible. If I walk towards Broomhouse I can get a 22 or St John's Road lets me on to the 26 or 31. But it's still a fair walk, especially for someone who may use walking sticks or crutches.
67

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:00:35
#65 thanks for letting me know.
68

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 15:00:51
sorry Linmal, I'm not sure I'm getting your point. Should we now ban old people from buses too?
69

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:04:45
#68, best to ban everyone then no discrimination then ;-).
70

Hmmm!!!!,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 15:06:42
When I was a young kiddie (at least 27 years ago) my mum or dad usually took me and my brother on and off the bus with a pram folded up. People are simply too lazy nowadays to fold down a pram. Come on mums, get your finger out. My dad is in a wheelchair and before this policy came in was sat at a stop for a hour till he could get on because of prams.
71

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 15:06:51
yep, probably in everyones best interests if everyone walks everywhere - especially those fare dodging elderly ladies and gentlemen. and those under 5's - GRRRRR!
72

YummyMummy,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 15:07:33
If 'selfish mother/fathers' wont give up the space, surely the driver has the right to tell them to get off the bus, as they would of there was an unruly bunch of teenagers running riot. If thats the case, where's the problem?
Wheelchair users should be clued up that they DO have priority over that space, people with pushchairs should know they may need to give up the space should a wheelchair user need it and driver should know this also. If everyone knew where they stood we wouldn't be having this debate in my opinion
73

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 15:08:23
no 70 - again, that is the fault of the driver, he should have asked the parents with prams to move for your father.

No one is saying we don't want to fold our prams - but getting them on the bus in the first place would be a good start!
74

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 15:10:14
#72

Exactly right. But then the drivers would have to actualy speak to their passengers, rather than ignore them or grudgingly grunt at them as is often the case at present. A little bit of money invested in customer service training, et viola! Problem disappears.
75

Hoof Hearted,

Part-route King's Road 28/07/2008 15:10:40
And I've never understood why kids only pay half fare.

OK if they are babes-in-arms and don't take up a seat, but a toddler takes up a whole seat in the same way as an adult. In fact at least the adults don't stand on the seats like all the kids do. There should really be a surcharge for the little beggars which would be used to clean the seats.

It's not as if they don't have the money - they always have the latest fashions, iPods, mobile phones etc, so why can't unaccompanied (by an adult) kids over about 8 years old pay full fare?

And it's always kids that throw stones at buses, grafitti the backs of the seats and slash the seat cushions. What is wrong with this country that we seem happy to accept this sort of behaviour?
76

celtic4,

USA 28/07/2008 15:10:55
I am glad all my children are grown. And I can rent a car to travel Scotland.
77

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:11:07
#70

As i just said, thats the drivers fault for not telling the person with the pram to fold it down or get off to be perfectly honest.

#71
Haha! So true.. instead of banning prams, just ban buses... now, there's a thought eh!
78

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:12:52
#75

I'm assuming you think obese people should pay for 2 seats then?

79

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 15:13:08
#75

- Maybe they only throw stones at the bus you are on, as they have heard it is carrying a child-hating nutter.
80

Hoof Hearted,

Getting de-vaulted 28/07/2008 15:14:53
#66. The low-floor buses are the newest ones. Why would LRT want to use them on routes that go to the worst schemes? As more new buses get delivered the older low-floor ones will eventually dribble down onto the 12, 21 and 32. It's just good business sense.
81

amother,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 15:17:03
in answer to yummy mummy to much stress. have enough stress just looking after my kids by myself (yes not married) had one partner, before anyone asks (and none since)walking my two disabled boys down the street with all the stares. children pointing and smurking is stressfull enough ta. what people don't get is my children have feelings to. if i turn round and swear at the cheeky get. i am scum?
82

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:19:49
#80

You wouldn't know good business sense if it knocked you down as you seem to lack common sense.
What difference would it make where it goes? "cause maybe kids will throw stones at it"? #79 seems to have cleared that problem up for you
83

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:23:04
#81

Bringing up children is stressful (i'm also a single parent, so do your worst haters) and even more so if they are disabled. The point being made is that you have a right to public transport as much as the next person! As long as you are being the best mother you can be, other peoples opinions shouldn't make a difference to you.
84

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:23:44
#75 when was the last time you got a bus. Under 5's don't pay to get on the bus. 5-15 year olds pay the 60p. I still take my 5 year old on to my knee if the bus is busy and he's paid his fare. As for kids over 8 travelling on their own on a bus. I'm very unlikely to allow my daughter to do that until she's heading to high school.
85

,

28/07/2008 15:24:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
86

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:26:18
Ah so the 12 is a scummy route is it. Starts at the gyle through corstorphine, town and then down to leith.
87

amother,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 15:26:50
to 85 your mum should have
88

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 15:27:42
#85

If your mother had followed that advice, I don't think she would have deprived the world of a brain surgeon.
89

mumtobrats,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 15:28:04
Well in that case Raoul, perhaps you should read through the debate before commenting with uneducated and illitterate responses.

No one has said they will fold their buggy up - DOH!
90

Maisie from Morningside,

28/07/2008 15:28:56
Back in the good old days we had 'go-chairs' which folded into a neat light size when you wanted to store them or get on a bus.
The modern equivalent resembles those bathchairs you see in old Broons cartoons and seem to be controlled by individuals who believe that they're the only people on the planet.
91

James (1),

28/07/2008 15:29:19
Between certain hours wheel chair users should not be give priority on buses. (How un PC is that? Wait, it gets worse)
Mothers with their prams get priority. Times might be one hour before schools starts, ending after school commences. The same at the end of school hours.
Now if a disabled person wants to use the bus at those times then no priority is given to them.
Outwith those hours priority is given to disabled.
It the same with old people who get on the bus at the end of a working day and take up all the places.
They have all day to do their shopping but no they need to travel at peak times.
The other alternative is to make prams and buggies banned and if you cannot look after your child then you cannot get on the bus.
92

,

28/07/2008 15:29:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
93

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 15:30:23
oops - another typo! - no has said that they will NOT fold their buggy up. And the majority of people will get off the bus with a pram to make room for a wheelchair, if they refuse, then it's up to the driver to remove them

Why do some people think they are above reading the whole debate before 'contributing'?
94

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 15:33:51
no. 92.

And where are those 'conditions of carriage' displayed then? somewhere easy and accessible for all to see? NO!

And if that was such a hard and fast rule, why have drivers not been enforcing it?
95

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:36:15
#92

I'm sorry but how many wheelchair users do you know that actually use the bus? I have to say i personally dont know any however, i think they are well out numbered with the amount of parents who use buses, so why can't everyone use them? I use buses alot and i think i've only ever seen one person in a wheelchair get on (in which case she got priority over a mum with a pram), so i dont see what the big deal is
96

,

28/07/2008 15:38:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

I love to eat Sellotape,

28/07/2008 15:43:27
Squirt-guns are the way forward.
98

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 15:44:04
lol, the only way I can get up there is by bus! Do you suggest I leave my children at home while I make this special journey?

point 2 - I did not start the debate.

point 3 - it's 'yourself', not yersel.

point 4 - I have personally spoken to 3 of the customer service managers at LRT and all have given me different reasons for this ban. It seems within LRT, the rear end doesn't know what the elbow is doing.

The conditions of carriage are not even on the website.
99

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:44:49
#96

I think most people get timetables from online or the bus stop, where it says nothing about this. The fact it's not a new rule and drivers are only enforcing it now because the DDA been on at them, says alot... like, there's never been an issue until someone stuck their oar in
100

,

28/07/2008 15:45:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
101

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:46:02
#96 surely they should be displayed on the bustops and the buses themselves. Oh i forgot, we're a bunch of halfwits so they don't think they should post them there
102

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 15:46:35
can you not read?

I made 4 of them.
103

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 15:46:58
"But the Terms of Carriage were on display"!

Kind of reminds me of this bit from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...

Mr. Prosser said, "You were quite entitled to make any suggestions or protests at the appropriate time, you know."
"Appropriate time?" hooted Arthur. "Appropriate time? The first I knew about it was when a workman arrived at my home yesterday. I asked him if he'd come to clean the windows and he said no, he'd come to demolish the house. He didn't tell me straight away of course. Oh no. First he wiped a couple of windows and charged me a fiver. Then he told me."
"But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."
"Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."
"But the plans were on display..."
"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."
"That's the display department."
"With a flashlight."
"Ah, well, the lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But look, you found the notice, didn't you?"
"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display on the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.'"
104

Artemis,

28/07/2008 15:48:59
#95 - I think it depends where you live. My part of town has several sheltered housing blocks and some supported accommodation for people with disabilities, and I often see wheelchair users on the buses. If you live in a part of town where few wheelchair users live, you won't see wheelchair users on the buses.
105

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 15:50:38
That's very true Artemis, but a little pointless as people have already said they would move/fold to allow a wheelchair user access.
106

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 15:51:26
#104

Technically incorrect, I'm afraid. It would only be the children who couldn't shove her off, since she's their mammy's mammy. Anyone else could shove her off, as they would be unrelated to her.
107

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 15:53:25
#107 what would the world have done had your mother not inflicted you on us ;-)
108

JT,

28/07/2008 15:55:19
Whilst I dont have kids and nor do I ever want them,especially being stuck on a flight from Birmingham with two screaming babies (the whole flight), I think that this treatment of parents with buggies is appauling. A couple of weeks ago, on the way home from work there was a young mum with a baby and toddler who was abused by someone who was with someone in a wheelchair as they wouldnt get off the bus or fold up the buggy. She didnt have a spare pair of hands to do this. Having said that the driver was apologetic to the wheelchair user and got abuse from the person who was pushing the chair. I was really shocked as there would have been total uproar if the situation was reversed. This person who abused both the mother and driver was of an age where they should have know better. Perhaps its something in the genes where they demand respect, well I was taught to earn respect.
109

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:55:30
#150

Very fair comment.

#107

Cause you, your family and friends we're born at 16 weren't you?
110

Hoof Hearted,

Private housing 28/07/2008 15:55:47
#86. That's what I said. 12 goes from Broomhouse to Leith, Portobello and Niddrie, 21 goes from Broomhouse to Craigmillar and Greendykes, whilst the 32 goes round them all!
111

Hoof Hearted,

Planet Earth 28/07/2008 15:58:19
#103. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy fan = Nerd!

You're only embarrasing yourself, you know.
112

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 15:59:18
#110

Thats the point we are trying to make! The mum SHOULD of folded the buggy and the wheelchair users SHOULD of got the space. The driver is in the wrong for not helping the mum fold the buggy down etc to make space for the wheelchair user.
I have a 2 year old and a 6 month old and i wouldn't refuse because i only have 1 pair of hands, that is just lazy/selfish!
113

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 16:01:45
#113

Actually, I've never read it. I just remember that bit from the telly programme.

Anyway, not as embarrassing as spouting the company Lothian Buses line of abject nonsense about prams being barred by the DDA.
114

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 16:02:41
#112 it goes from The Gyle the 12 does.
115

Hoof Hearted,

28/07/2008 16:03:54
#110. No-one should OF done anything! The word is HAVE. We used to be the best educated nation in the world too!
116

Hoof Hearted,

28/07/2008 16:04:50
#113. Is that Lemming of the DDA?
117

I love to eat Sellotape,

28/07/2008 16:05:18
Can we just cut to the quick here? Do we kill them or let them live?
118

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:09:25
Just don't ask LRT to advertise it whatever you do! no one would be there!
119

amother,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 16:09:31
at the end of the day is it not PUPLIC transport.
for anyone who needs to use it you would think

120

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:10:04
#122 LOL! Well said.

121

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:10:38
#123

Yes.. like the public?
122

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:11:29
Yes amother, that's exactly the point we are trying to make, equal rights are not just for the select few.
123

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 16:11:48
Other than for keeping up with the Jones', why do people feel the need to cart their little darlings around in prams the size of a house these days? It's rediculous. And most of the people pushing them seem to think they are some how better than everyone else and have a devine right to barge their away round the streets proclaiming "I have a child! Get out of the way!".

Surely it's common sense to think, "maybe I shouldn't take my Silver Cross bohemouth on the bus" and invest in something smaller to use? Or would that not go down well at the Mother & Toddler group? You chose to have a child and should therefore learn to live with having one and not expect everyone to bend over backwards to accomodate you. Disabled people did not choose to end up in a wheelchair and should always be given priority.

My mother can't drive and coped perfectly well taking myself and my brother on and off older buses, as well as the children she used to care for as a child minder. All were under 5 btw, and alot in buggies. Often double ones that are not that easily folded up. So get a grip, stop being so selfish and accept that prams should not be taken onto a bus.
124

Hoof Hearted,

28/07/2008 16:14:53
Omnibus [Defn]:
to or from, by, with or for everyone (who is poor).
125

amother,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 16:16:36
was on the fence with this one but after reading all this i think the mothers have won my vote
126

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:17:30
no 128 - I think if anyone needs to get a grip it's you. I have a silvercross 3d 2 in 1 travel system, it's smaller than a lot of buggies even in pram mode. I am allowed it on the bus in buggy mode but not as a pram, there are no funny attachments nor does it need to be taken apart to fold, n fact it folds just like a normal buggy. I a happy to fold it should a wheelchair user need access?

What's so selfish about wanting safe transport for your child???? It is far more selfish to make a newborn baby sit up in a buggy or sit them on your knee so I'm not quite getting your point.

Good on your mother, I'm sure she would have appreciated a little help and understanding while travelling too.

I suggest you toddle off back to the dark ages now, or you could just read the thread before making half assed comments on a subject you clearly know nothing about.
127

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:18:23
#128

That is so true, people who use buses should be sensible enough to buy something practical. But from the picture on the article, it looks like a carseat on a frame, which could be clipped off and folded down so if the policy is aimed at all pushchairs/prams then i think it's highly unfair.. and on that note, say 3 mums/dads were to get on the bus with 3 buggies, where are all the buggies to sit?
128

Hoof Hearted,

Desiderata 28/07/2008 16:19:01
#130.

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.
129

Non Believer,

28/07/2008 16:21:18
YummyMummy (doubt it) etc
Shouldnt you lot be getting the tea on ?

130

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:25:20
no, us terrible mothers who make our children travel by bus just bug a chippie in the microwave.
131

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:25:38
#137
Non believer? You certainly are ;)
132

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 16:26:45
132

I was making reference to people with these enormous prams that serve no real purpose other than, to coin a phrase, be a w1lly extension. "Mine's bigger than yours!". I, as a child myself, would often help out my Mum when she was child minding and fold the buggies down for her and sit with the older ones (3,4,5 say) whilst she had the youngest (some as wee as a few months) on her knee. If I could do that as a 10/12 year old, why can't a parent in their 20's or 30's do that with their own children?
133

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:29:52
so what about people with prams like mine, that are small and easy to fold, yet are still banned?

I'm still not getting your point, do you suggest I go back in by about 10 years and have a child so they could help me now with a buggy?
134

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 16:31:49
#141

- Yes, time travel will solve everything. You never hear of Dr Who having these kind of problems.
135

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 28/07/2008 16:33:02
Go placidly amid the noise, haste, tramworks, AND LEAVE YER PRAM OFF THE BUS
136

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:33:38
And just for the record, these enormous prams still fit on the bus don't they? and will move for a wheelchair, so what difference does size make? what is it about the male preoccupation with size?

secondly, it's very unsafe to sit with a child on your knee.
137

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:34:31
Its funny how some people dont move forward with the times..
138

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 16:34:44
141

If it's small and easily folded, then why don't you just fold it when you get on the bus? People managed to do that for years, so why are folk so against it now? Or is it another case of wrapping kids up in cotton wool in the insane world of health and safety that we live in now?
139

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:37:47
if it's small and easily folded, why should I fold it unless I have to?

It's LRT's stance on health and safety telling us that rear facing buggies and prams are unsafe that has caused all this for your information.

Maybe you should be backing up your argument with real evidence instead of "in my day..."
140

Non Believer,

28/07/2008 16:38:44
145 Talking of time .. you've got alot of that on your hands eh ?
Been here most of the afternoon you !
Thought you mum's were always busy, and you wonder why you get the urine extracted.
141

KV,

28/07/2008 16:39:19
1. The real problem with folding buggies is having an active toddler or more than one child because no one helps. If other people were willing to give a hand in folding up buggies or keeping an eye on the child while the parent/carer stashes the buggy, it would be fine. This is what used to happen when my mother took my sister and I on the bus together as children. But, very few people help you when you are struggling with the buggy and small children and certainly not the driver. If more people behaved with basic human decency and helped others [including giving up seats for elderly/disabled passengers ] then this wouldn't even be an issue.

2. You can buy buggies that come with infant baskets/car seats that do fold up. These are a pain to fold but it can be done [with the help of one other person] This makes the journey safer for an infant and allows the buggy to be folded up in case a disabled passenger needs the buggy. THis is an irrelevant argument unless no one will help you.

3. The LRT appears to have no official policy about disabled children in buggies and access for disabled adults in wheelchairs. I have seen drivers get very angry with parents of disabled children who, quite rightly, refuse to fold up their buggy in order to allow another disabled passenger on. This speaks to the very poor training LRT drivers get in terms of customer service and their understanding of the DDA.

4. LRT drivers can REFUSE to allow you on the bus even if you have a fully collapsible buggy like I do. Living on the 22 route, you would think it would be easy for me take the bus but it really isn't. The number of drivers who simply refuse to stop or wait 2 minutes while I fold my buggy is appalling. I don't mind folding my buggy but being denied boarding is incredibly irritating.
142

Skip McClendon,

28/07/2008 16:39:48
#146

"If it's small and easily folded, then why don't you just fold it when you get on the bus?"

- Maybe because having a small child secured in a pram/buggy is safer than juggling them unrestrained on one's knee with no seatbelt?

143

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:39:51
no 148 - why are you here? do you have kids? seems a bit weird your creeping round on here when it doesn't even concern you.
144

Linmal,

Livingston 28/07/2008 16:41:23
#68 No I would not ban ANYONE from using the bus all I would say is to be considerate to your fellow passengers and sensible. My friend's mum worked well into her retirement and refused to use her bus pass when she was going home at night as she thought it was unfair that OAP's used the buses at peak times. Now you can use the bus any time but to be fair the service is a lot better nowadays (at least if you travel on Lothian Buses) and you are more likely to be able to get on the bus. Her point was that if you weren't working you could plan your journey outwith peak times - fair point. As for the lady who mentions push chairs, I agree. I had a pram when I went out walking and to the shops and a pushchair for when I wanted to use the bus. I could fold it up and it got in no-one's way. As for wheelchair users, it is true that very few use the bus but they should be able to if they want to. Just lets all be more considerate to one another, you never know, it might just mean you will get what you wanted in the first place without all the hassle.
145

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:42:24
#151.. he's after a date, he just wont admit it haha

And non beliver.. children have alot of sleep, including durin the day, not that it matters to you..
146

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 16:43:55
I'm only talking about 10/15 years ago here, so hardly going back into the mists of time. I'm sick fed up of the constant fear and anxiety that people seem to be living in now. Especially with regards to children. If it's not a paedophile on every corner then it's forbidding them from playing in the garden incase, god forbid, they catch a cold. Down with the PC, health and safety cr*p and bring back common sense and thinking with your own mind! Does it not register with people that bringing a pram onto the bus that's almost as wide as the aisle will inconvenience every other passenger on the bus? Or do they not matter, as long as their little darling is ok?
147

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:44:44
I still don't get your point - in what way is banning prams considerate? all they had to do was reinforce that the space must be given up for a wheelchair users, instead they have alienated a large percentage of their customers.

I don't think anyone should feel they cannot travel at peak times.
148

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:46:27
isn't a wheelchair almost as wide as the aisle?????

and there is a space for it, it's not as it sticks out. in what world is that an inconvenience?

There was no low lying buses 10-15 years ago so wheelchairs could not get on at all! you want to go back there?
149

,

28/07/2008 16:49:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
150

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:50:04
A pram is about the same size, if not smaller than a wheelchair so that isn't correct for a start.
And being all PC about health and safety.. who decided children as old as 12 should sit on booster seats in cars? But newborns are to be held on a bus. Oh yes, cause that makes sense.
151

Linmal,

Livingston 28/07/2008 16:50:19
#155 - banning prams is not considerate, what is inconsiderate is the way the majority of people who have a pram who seem to think it is a God given right that they occupy the space on the bus. There is only room for one pram - first come first served. But Lothian Buses have a good service and so you generally don't have to wait too long for the next one.
152

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:52:23
no, actually I'm anything but fat. I cope wonderfully, but there are people who do not. I'm not one of those selfish "I'm alright Jack" types to be honest, it's nice that you are though, it must be a wonderful world you live in.

My children are being very well cared for thank you very much, not that it's any of your concern.

Is there a bandwagon to jump on? do they allow prams?
153

Captainofedinburgh,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 16:53:43
A wheelchair user has no choice in the matter. They are confined to the wheelchair and there's not alot they can do about it. A person with a pram does. They can choose to fold down their child's mode of transport and stow it. It's about having consideration for other people, something that is often lacking in today's society. I would happily offer to help a mother/father struggling to fold away a buggy or pram. But I'd most likely be met with accusing eyes and called a kiddie fiddler. And the low floor buses of today are alot better than those used 10-15 years ago and I would not like to go back to them!
154

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:53:47
I'd imagine prams are banned from the bandwagon too.
155

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:53:56
What posts have you been reading??? certainly no one on here thinks it's a god given right, everyone has said they would move for a wheelchair.

It is a long wait if all the buses have banned them doh!
156

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:55:10
#161

You need to go back and read all the comments as not one person has said they wouldn't fold down a pushchair. What we are stating is the fact they should be allowed on UNTIL the space is needed for a wheelchair user.

157

mumtobrats,

28/07/2008 16:55:24
no 161. I'm not qute sure what your argument is then? you say mums should fold their buggies for a wheelchair, mum's agree. you say prams should move to make way for a wheelchair, once again mums's agree....who are you arguing with?
158

Non Believer,

28/07/2008 16:55:59
YummyMummy - you are a bore, I feel sorry for your other half (if one exists)
If you've already clarified that point, good for you but I cant be ersed reading through the comments.
Go and see to your bairns.
159

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 16:58:00
#166

I like how just about every comment has been aimed at me... why is that?
And my CHILDREN are fine thank you :) They are well cared for and loved which i cant say you must of got when you were younger with all the angst against mums
160

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 17:20:57
#168 bummer I'm away on holiday to a child friendly resort
161

JFW,

28/07/2008 17:23:46
Lothian buses management are muppets. Why can't common sense prevail any more. The mums in question here are not asking for much. Yes they know the spaces are for wheelchair users and they have stated they will happily make room should a wheelchair user need it. What the hell is the matter with everyone. What about when the bus is full and people are standing in the wheelchair space or in the aisles? That's the same situation for the wheelchair user as a pram being in the space - common sense and courtesy is all that's required for this to work for everyone; but that's beyond LRT management.

Before some of you anti-parent idiots post any more stupid comments you should try and get on an LRT bus with a couple of small children, one of them in a pram, following the rules about folding it. My wife and I used to try and do this regularly and not once did a driver ever wait for the children to reach their seats, or the pram to be stowed or the baby secure in our arms. They would just happily lurch off leaving one parent to deal with children being thrown all over the place, along with dealing with a pram and a new born; and not many other passengers ever offered to help either. Believe me, the safest place for a young child is strapped in their pram when it comes to getting on one of these buses.
162

Ian Ross,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 17:24:58
As someone who has to take a disabled person in a wheelchair on buses fairly regularly, I must admit I have had little or no problems from either LRT drivers or men or women with a pram. If there has been a pram on the bus, either they have folded it, or I have waited for the next bus. Whilst it is great to see more thought given to disabled folk, a bit of common sense could surely be applied here. How many folk with prams get on buses, compared to folk with wheelchairs ? I bet there are more with prams. So let's have a bit of come and go here. Or is that too much to ask for ?
163

techpunk,

28/07/2008 17:26:14
have your baby wear little black ray bans, and carry a wee white stick.

hey presto!

disabled baby = no problem!
164

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 17:37:28
I must admit that I am inclined to support these mothers---if for reasons of common sense only.

Whoever dreamed up this rediculous ruling isn't giving anyone credit for having basic common sense. I'm 100% sure that if there was a mother on a bus with a baby in a pram and a disabled person got on in their wheelchair, that people would deal with the situation so that the needs of both were satisfied as best as could be done---Even if this meant, horror of horrors, other passengers helping out.

This is a brain-dead rule, dreamed up by brain-dead jobsworths working on the presumption that evryone else is brain-dead. Scrap it now.
165

ahb,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 18:04:20
As a mother of twins who are now older I faced this a few times and remember when my babies were newborns being asked to fold my buggy. I asked the driver how I was supposed to get 2 newborns out a buggy hold onto them and fold my buggy and then carry my buggy and 2 babies on the bus. His answer NOT MY PROBLEM.

This is dreadful state of affairs when people are being asked to choose between mums and disabled people. it should not come down to this and the council and LRT need to reassess the strategies and make it easier for disabled people and mothers to be able to travel on board public transport along side each other not fight each other for spaces.

As for the trams are there going to be spaces for disabled people and mums to travel alongside each other knowing the council probably not.
166

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 18:30:09
#175 It has been suggested on netmums that before they order the trams that we get some attention. Friends who live in manchester have told us how their trams have plenty space. If there was room for more than one wheelchair/pram/buggy then no one would be discrimainated against. Lots of other transport operators manage to do it but not Lothian Buses. Many of the mums from Netmums have also had the most confusing baffling answers and management don't know what the actual rules are as they don't understand them.

Both wheelchair users and parents/carers should have the right to use buses and if Lothian buses thought it through and liaised with other bus companies they would soon find it was possible. Many new mums moving to Edinburgh from London have been astounded to find out how bad the situation here is when London has a really good transport system in place with both wheelchair and pushchairs being allowed on buses at the same time due to ensuring there is enough space.

167

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 18:34:02
This seems typical of arrogant parents who think their choice to have children should give them priorities over other people. I can't take my folding bike on the bus, which takes up less space - yet these idiots are complaining simply because they actually have to fold their buggies - get a grip!
168

bun107,

EDINBURGH 28/07/2008 18:37:29
I cannot honestly believe the comments on this article. Mums are being branded as lazy, children as terrors etc etc.

Just as drivers are asked to have tolerance for Learner Drivers (as we were all learners once).

People should remember - we all started off as children too!

My son is 4 now and had the combination of a disability and being a baby - so which of these would entitle him more to the space in the bus?

I do remember getting on the bus with a struggling baby, my buggy folded, his bag, my bag and clutching my bus fare. (ok the journey was probably less than 3 miles - but it was heavy winter and snow was very deep).

Not one person helped me or even asked if i could do with a hand.

Likewise, as an 8 month pregnant woman (still working at that time) got on the bus and not one person would give up their seat. When i finally did get one (at the back of the bus) it was a struggle. When it came time to get off carefully maneouvering down the aisle was very difficult due to the bus being busy, people in the aisle etc etc. Bus braked suddenly and i fell (which could have happened to me pregnant or not) and had a suspected fractured shoulder (unable to x-ray due the pregnancy). Again due to 'helpful' people or lack thereof.

So I decided that if I could walk I would, even if it meant getting up, organised and out the house before 7.30am with small baby just so i didn't have to suffer the bus journey.

Now that my son is a bit older, if I ever see a Mum (or for that matter a Dad!) getting on a bus weighed down with baby, buggy, shopping etc I always OFFER my help (if they turn it down fine) but I can remember those hard times and how it really disapated any faith I had in humankind at the lack of support offered to parents on buses.
169

YummyMummy,

28/07/2008 18:38:52
David, go read the article properly and ALL the comments before saying something as stupid as that. Where once does it say 'these idiots' are moaning about folding their buggies down?

BOTH ladies in the article said they would get off if someone needed the wheelchair space.

Honestly.. some people!
170

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 18:51:13
#179 I've read the article and am also basing this on first hand experience. Saying something and actually doing it are two separate matters - we've seen lots of mothers who refuse to either fold their buggies or get off the bus when asked. Parents need to think about how they are going to get around when they buy these buggies rather than just going for the latest oversized status symbol.
171

John Hebson,

Currie 28/07/2008 19:23:37
Campaign, you are having a laugh.
Prehaps if these Mum's who feel so strongly about taking there prams on board and not folding their buggies had to live their lives with a disability they may be more sympathetic.Yummy mummies with young children are beng partily incovienenced for a couple of years whilst a disability is usually for life.

172

allknowing,

28/07/2008 19:41:01
And you all wonder why people want to use their cars. I cant imagine having to put up with this lot every am/pm.

Bunch of scaffs the lot of you!
173

Rollo Tommasi,

28/07/2008 19:53:22
I have some sympathy for the mothers in this article. But they're taking their ire out on the wrong people.

These mothers have said they'd be happy to vacate a seat for a wheelchair user. But regular readers of this site will know there have been a few posts recently telling of occasions where a bus driver has asked a parent to fold up a buggy to allow a wheelchair user onboard...only for the parent in question to refuse. Some posters have even admitted doing this themselves.

Perhaps if some of their fellow young parents were more considerate, Lothian Buses wouldn't have to enforce this "no prams" rule.
174

Sarahbaxter,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 20:04:22
Just like # 178 above, I cannot believe some of the comments being made on this page.

Nowhere has any parent said that they would refuse to fold up their buggy if a disabled person gets on board so why on earth do people keep commenting on 'yummy mummies refusing to fold their buggies'.

I have a 7 month old and a 3 year old and I'm quite happy to fold my buggy if needed for a wheelchair user to get on. I'm not saying however that the same can be said for everyone as I have myself been on a bus where a mother with a small child in a buggy refused to fold up her pram so the wheelchair user had to wait for the next bus. I am appalled at people behaving like this but am equally appalled at all the negative comments being made towards mums wishing to take their prams on the bus.
175

techpunk,

28/07/2008 20:19:47
surely any self-respecting mother should have a 4x4, with no need of public transport?

it's outrageous!

176

D_B_,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 20:46:40
What a bunch of narrow minded folk on this website. I would like to see you lot (mostly men I see) manage a buggy, a small baby, changing bag and shopping on to a bus. I hope i accidentally run into your shin when im on the bus with my buggy.
177

Glenda,

blah 28/07/2008 21:03:49
As others have said:-

Let foldable buggys on the buses.

If a wheelchair user wishes to board, they have priority.
Buggy must then be folded and stored so that disabled traveller can board the bus.

Unfortunately, in this day and age many, including mothers, have a musguided beleif in what their "rights" are.

Try getting one of the many foul-mouthed, ranting bitches who regularly board buses heading out towards Wester Hailes (Nos. 33, 34 etc), to fold up their buggys. They're too busy shrieking at their older sprog who are running up and down the aisles, threatening their innocent infants with a hammering if they don't f**king stop crying like wee c**ts etc.

Does anyone really think the bus drivers will be able to control these menaces?
178

Wireless,

28/07/2008 21:10:58
Good on these girls for taking on LRT! Having had two children under two I vividly remember the hassle of trying to get on and off buses with one baby in a sling and the other in a buggy which I had to take her out of and hold in my arms (she couldn't stand alone or walk)whilst trying to fold up the buggy and juggle bags and money (and no, invariably nobody helped me!). In my book this made me pretty unstable (physically and mentally!). By the time both of them were in a double buggy I had to give up with the buses altogether. Why should parents in this situation be made to get off the bus to let a wheelchair on?Ridiculous.
179

pofi,

staring out the window 28/07/2008 21:19:49
For heaven's sake, it's LOTHIAN BUSES not LRT! It's not been LRT since Lothian Region was disbanded in the 90s. You see those big buses with LOTHIAN BUSES written in huge letters all over them..?!

Anyway, what is even more annoying than chubby mummies refusing to move their monstrous perambulators (yummy mummies- aye right, if you're a very hungry cannibal) are the numpties who sit at the back of the lower deck with their grubby shoes/flip flops/trainers draped all over the opposite seats. Lothian Buses have had to put signs up at the back of the bus requesting "Please do not place your feet on the seats" with a useful pictorial diagram for the more educationally challenged, and THEY STILL DO IT!!

Are they related to the parents who cannot read the "This space should be vacated for a wheelchair user" signs on every bus?!!

Spot on #187, you've summed it up.
180

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 21:25:31
Why do people keep referring that just because you are a mum you are in some way fat. It's very wrong and very narrowminded that all mothers are fat.
181

Rollo Tommasi,

28/07/2008 21:26:55
Post 188 proves my point about who the real enemies of the considerate parents are. It's the selfish ones like Wireless who would refuse to collapse their buggy or leave the bus in order to let a wheelchair user on.

That's probably why Lothian Buses are implementing this rule. The drivers are required by law to make the space available for a wheelchair user who needs it. When there's no wheelchair, it should be alright for prams and buggies to use the space instead. But if the driver doesn't know that the parent will be considerate if a wheelchair user wants to board later on (like the mothers in the article) or selfish (like Wireless), what are they supposed to do?
182

Bruce Kelly,

on the buses 28/07/2008 21:42:29
What is with all the abuse being levelled at "yummy mummies"? Personally i love the "yummy mummies" coming on to the bus. I tends to brighten up a dreich Monday morning in January.
A the risk of making a huge generalisation, these so called "ym's" tend to be far more polite, are better educated and definetly have better personal hygiene than our gum chewing cousins draped from head to toe in man made fibres that bellow at their offspring at 7.30am whilst you are still waiting for your first cup of coffee to course through your system. Chantelle! Stop f...in' pulling Kylie's hair ya wee.........etc etc. Ban man made fibres on the bus! That's what i say. Surely combustible materials such as these pose a larger threat to the public as a whole than a buggy/pram, collapsable or not.
On a serious note however, this whole affair is simply ridiculous. Best of luck to all the women who are campaigning to get this travesty overturned.
183

Diana Noi,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 21:50:58
What people don't seem to realize is that so many of the new style of prams simply CANNOT be folded, and certainly not quickly enough when you are trying to get your baby on the bus and not hold everyone up! Babies are safer strapped into a pram or buggy than having to be put on their mum's knee and also mum's often have toddlers too, so it helps if the baby can be in the pram. So many mums are reliant on buses to get around and the buses make no attempt to accommodate babies safely. First Buses are better than Lothian however. I think that Britain discrimates against children so much! The number of places that suddenly become unavailable to go to just because you have a child! It is not like this on the continent. Buses are an important way of letting mums get out and about and meet their friends like normal. It would in fact be very easy for a bus to accommodate two or more prams. I just think drivers and other passengers don't want to have to listen to a baby crying if s/he gets upset on the bus. Passengers shouldn't be so selfish! Babies should be accommodated, safely, just like any other person travelling by bus. It is a service and mum's with babies need it more than a lot of people.
184

Asil,

musselburgh 28/07/2008 21:57:45
I think the goverment could put a stop to this, bring in a new law to stop people having more than 1 child, at least until the oldest is old enough to fold and carry a buggy onto a bus!! If you know you have to travel on a bus, why buy a unfoldable bugyy/pram... seems a bit daft to me. I have seen a few too many times people refusing to fold buggys to let a wheelchair on so there obviously is people out there like that. not that i've anything against prams on buses myself as long as the child is not screaming.
185

MummyWease,

28/07/2008 22:22:49
#195 and how do you plan to stop people getting pregnant then?
186

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 22:26:23
20 hibbyspurs, stick your rattle away and stick to the debate,

if you READ the article, you'll find that LB and FIRST actually have the same policy

Lothian Buses says it has to refuse prams in line with anti-discrimination legislation. Passengers on the Capital's buses can only take on buggies which can fold up if a wheelchair users needs the space.

But bus company First South East & Central Scotland, part of the First Group, said prams and buggies are allowed to board their low-floored buses, provided there is space available.

Sounds Like viryally the same Policy?

Maybe you should be taking up the Disability legislation with your MP/MSP.

Reading in between the lines, it looks like "someone" has complained to LB about the "wheelchair" space.

One person spoiling it for the many buggy users.

Since you don't use the bus that often, you will not be aware that LB has plans to have its Buses all Low Floor access within the next 2 to 3 years.

On the other hand many of FIRST buses, either don't have access or the kerb dropping system doesn't work.

Given the 5+ min frequency of the 26, Buggy or Wheelchair users have a good chance of getting on.

try FIRST bus routes, and what could come along is anyones guess, Low Floored buses, NO access single/ double deckers or coaches.

The Majority of LB main routes are all operated by low floored buses.

187

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 22:30:09
Margaret Smith MSP said "but I do think that it is very difficult for parents travelling with a number of young children not to use buggies or prams."

Err, pay attention Margaret. It's prams not buggies that are banned.

The way some of you mums are going on, you'd think we lived in a nazi state. A small piece of advice: pipe down, chill out and spen £30 on a buggy. We've travelled on buses for years with our toddler quite happily, sometimes in, sometimes out the buggy.
188

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 22:31:10
20 hibbyspurs

I believe both those interviewed said they would gladly give up the space for a wheelchair user? Hardly selfish now is it?

No, but her comment "I believe that my daughters' rights are as important as that of a disabled person."

The Child can get out of the Buggy, the wheelchair user can't. Try pushing someone about in a wheelchair, it ain't easy
189

pofi,

heading for the emergency exit 28/07/2008 22:31:43
What on earth is the problem?! Buy a cheap buggy for bus journeys. Keep the "baby car" for the long walks you take for your exercise and the baby's fresh air. What, you don't do that?!
Ask your mum and granny how they managed before low loading buses?
Is anybody surprised that they don't see that many disabled bus passengers? No wonder; if you had to wait an hour to get on a bus every time you went out you'd give up too.
Now, this is all getting quite tedious. How much more "outrage" can we take?!
190

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 22:35:17
Bob2,

Sorry, I just had to pick you up on this one. How is,

"Lothian Buses says it has to refuse prams"

the same policy as

"prams and buggies are allowed to board their low-floored buses"

One refuses prams full stop, the other allows them if there's space...or am I missing something?
191

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 22:37:09
No 20 hibbyspurs

yes I've got kids, been there, got the t-shirt

Used the bus, like a few comments - before and after the easy access buses came along.

Didn't use one of those TANK size buggies.

Waiting for the bus on many time, got prepared.

I've also been on the Drivers side of the bus, and many a time have helped people off the bus with there buggies!!!
192

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 22:40:44
200 pofi,

great comments, sums up the whole debate
193

D_B_,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 22:46:08
A few weeks ago I was on a bus with my baby in his buggy when a wheelchair user wanted on and I shouted to the driver that I was folding the buggy then I heard him tell the wheelchair user they couldnt get on because the space had a buggy in it. I shouted again and baby was out the buggy and it was folded when the driver just drove off!! Everyone else on the bus heard me shout but the driver just couldnt be bothered to get the ramp out to let them on and to the wheelchair user it looked like I was refusing to move and I was upset about that. Where was the anti-discrimination for the lady that was left on the kerb caused solely by the bus driver.

As for the use of prams I would never have got anywhere without my pram as my baby was premature and weighed 4lb 9oz when he came home and I could never have considered a flimsy folding buggy so im all for a compromise between newborns and wheelchair users.
194

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 22:46:40
200 pofi,

nice remarks.

Personally I can take some more outrage...I find it all a bit amusing.
195

D_B_,

28/07/2008 22:51:50
Im sure you find it amusing Julian but to us parents this is real life and maybe you should find another hobby.
196

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 22:59:01
julian nope, you are correct on the PRAM fact

as you say buy a buggy..

No doubt someone will be complaing to FIRST on the DDA issue and prams will be added to there list
197

pofi,

leaping off between stops 28/07/2008 22:59:51
And there are baby slings for very little ones. I used one when my eldest was very little, much easier for getting around- and very soothing for a little one; they need to feel their mother near when they are that little.
Not surrounded by a multitude of shopping bags...

"Outrage", Julian- ooh, where do I start?!! How about the reaction of car, taxi and bus drivers in the city centre during the Festival when a procession of angry mums with humungous prams near the tram works cause gridlock in a 5 mile radius...
198

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 23:03:50
208.....it could be a Festival Act

Festival...don't mention the Festival....

Tourists.....aaaagggh...wait until they are trying to get the correct change for the bus...
199

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 23:04:19
D_B_ # 206,

Real life obvioulsy hasn't taught you yet that you should never make assumptions about people.

The reason I find this so amusing is that I know exactly what it's like to take a toddler on a bus, in and out of the buggy. For people to be outraged and talk about discrimination on such a trivial issue of prams over buggies is quite comic.
200

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 23:09:44
pofi,

Yes, I think that would be a bit too much outrage for me.

Bob2,

refreshing to get someone on this forum acknowledging a correction...most unusual behaviour. I suspect you are correct on the issue of First. Or is it possible they allow prams because they have enough space for them and a wheelchair? I never travel on them so maybe someone could enlighten us.
201

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 23:09:52
192 Waspy100,

wait until the TRAM NETWORK is up and running,
With standing room for 170 there will be plenty of room for TANK SIZE buggy's and prams on the TRAMS
202

Bob 2,

28/07/2008 23:13:28
maybe the parents on the bus could start a sing a long to cheer up the other passengers during the Festival

how does it go, the wheels on the bus go round and round !!!

goodnight
203

mothero'2,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 23:16:12
I think this debate could be neverending....
i use buses everyday. It is wrong to discriminate against anyone..or to favour one group in society over another..Lothian Buses has to come up with an answer or more a compromise to suit all..
204

Bob 2,

.kids 28/07/2008 23:23:02
still here

No 214 Maybe you should be taking up the Disability legislation with your MP/MSP

goodnight all
205

CRAGman,

28/07/2008 23:28:05
Lothian Buses have really boobed here. Prams should be allowed on buses with the proviso that they would have to be removed if someone in a wheelchair then came along. Some would argue that folk in wheelchairs should take their chances at space being available just like everyone else but I think the above policy strikes a right balance.
206

Julian.,

edinburgh 28/07/2008 23:28:43
#214,

Your choice of words is exactly what some of us have been talking about...discriminating against people, favouring one group over another. It's not groups or people who are being discriminated against. It's those mothers who won't go and spend 30 quid on a buggy who are being singled out...it's hardly an issue for Nelson Mandela is it?
207

big man,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 23:40:41
well having read all the comments and sympathise with mums, yet nobody has stated that the allowing of buggies has and always was an unwritten concesssion with the bus companies in order to let mums travel, at the end of the day, it seems like rules for one & rules for others, why doesnt your local MSP approach LB & see if they would even buy some buses that are buggy & pram friendly, there called "Buggie Buses", they have these in Wishaw & in othere areas, one other thing, LB drivers are all trained in DDA, they didn't get an option & customer care, oh i forgot to mention i am a bus driver and try to do my best, but there again there are always people in Edinburgh who think we are not good enough, if you think you can do better ??, come and join us.
208

,

29/07/2008 00:51:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
209

sick of edinburgh,

29/07/2008 08:09:51
Late comment here.

Some of Edinburgh's people have always been selfish and perhaps this has been behind the policy now being enforced. Perhaps there have been people (hopefully a minority) unwilling to give up space for a wheelchair and therefore their selfish actions have caused enforcement. This behaviour from some of our citizens is nothing new. I remember (long ago) being almost nine months pregnant, standing in stifling heat on a crowded bus, being pushed and jostled and not one person offered me a seat. Everyone looked the other way. Those people were young and old alike. As someone else posted, 'abuse it and you lose it'.
210

Butterfly203,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 09:08:30
A lot of people are making very unfair comments. Mums are not wanting to take spaces away from wheelchair users just have the opportunity to use them when they are free. All of the mums have said they would get off the bus if required. As for comments about walking how about some of you able bodies who don't have a wheelchair or a pram walk allowing buses to be designed to carry those with wheels of some sort. Hmmm, thought not. I have 1 year old twins and a 3 year old toddler and while we walk loads, sometimes we need to get a bus across town to visit family, should my kids be denied that because my 3 year old can't walk that far? I don't mind walking for an hour or more, I enjoy the fresh air but it's not physically possible for a child that small. This is being turned into a them (wheelchair users) and us (mums with prams) argument when all that is needed is flexiblity. I am horrified at the amount of anti children comments - don't forget you were all "screaming brats" at one point too.
211

Linmal,

Livingston 29/07/2008 09:09:58
#68 I am not saying you should ban anyone from buses. What I am saying is that if everyone was more considerate there would not be a problem.

My mother brought me up to give up my seat to an elderly person and I brought up my children to do the same, my daughter, when she travels on buses, has taught her children the same. If everyone did this, and people were just nicer to their fellow man/woman, the world would be a very much nicer place.

Too many people today shout about rights. With rights come responsibilities but you don't hear about anyone clamouring for those, do you?

To everyone, just use some commonsense and courtesy and I'm sure you will find life a lot easier. Its amazing what a difference a smile, a please and a thankyou can make. Try it today, you might get a pleasant surprise.
212

CarolineB,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 10:17:00
I have taken some points on board with regards to the just buy a buggy point of view. The figure of £30 has been banned about. Newborn babies need to lie flat - hence many buggies are unsuitable. I do have a buggy as part of a three in one travel system. The buggy is not suitable for my baby until he is six months old. Additionally the buggy does not fold down in one part so i worry that i may not be able to take it on the bus.

My point with regards to folding a buggy on the bus is simple. When a baby cannot support its own neck let alone sit by itself it is dengerous to take it out of travel system and sit them on your knee. In a car it would be illegal. If the bus were to stop sharply you could potentially crush your baby.

As aforementioned i am happy to get off the bus and wait for another should a wheelchair users need the space.
213

YummyMummy,

29/07/2008 11:42:26
#219

Personally i think your description of me would be better suited to yourself but that aside..
I have never once said parents should get priority. The point i was trying to make is there are more parents with young children using the buses than wheelchair bound users. So, isn't it a waste of money for LB to be investing in new buses where there is going to be an empty space most of the time which could be taking up by someone?
214

pofi,

on the bus to obvlivion 29/07/2008 12:10:34
#219 Dohhh! You really are thick aren't you?!
As has been pointed out on numerous occasions (try reading this forum again and engage the brain this time) the wheelchair users have probably been scared off the buses.
Would you wait for an hour or more in inclement weather on the off-chance that some scummy mummy might let you on?! No, I didn't think so.
215

YummyMummy,

29/07/2008 13:23:31
Ok, first of all, my post number was #244
Secondly, How old are you? I dont know anyone who uses the phrase 'doh' after primary school age
And thirdly, its not up to the 'scummy mummy', it's down to the driver!!
And, last but not least, as i've said before, wheelchair users should know they have priority so why should they be scared off?
216

James (1),

29/07/2008 14:27:42
#226 Do you really know anyone who says "doh"?
I don't think you do!
217

pofi,

at the edge of my seat with all this excitement 29/07/2008 14:34:56
My sincere apologies to #219 for misquoting the post number! But not to #219.....

It is up to the slummy mummy unfortunately as the drivers have been told not to enforce the request to make way for a disabled passenger. If you had read the previous news reports on this you would know that disabled passengers HAVE been left by the side of the road by pram drivers refusing to move. I wouldn't be in a hurry to try and get on a bus in their position (it could be a long wait...)

I would go with #222 on this one, on courtesy and manners being taught to children by parents.
Yes, I am old enough to have been taught manners and to teach my children them too. (And young enough to have a sense of humour... did #219 ever have one?!?)
218

pofi,

think I'd better jump off the bus now 29/07/2008 14:39:28
Dohh! Did it again, the second sentence applies to #226
(ie to whom an apology is not being offered.

As does the last paragraph (can't bear to repeat her ridiculous nom-de-plume).
219

Spout,

Edinburgh 29/07/2008 14:47:07
I didn't learn how to drive until my daughter was 5 and easily took the bus without the need for a buggy until she was 6 months old or so by carrying in her in a sling.

Once she was 6 months old and able to sit up I got a collapsible stroller style buggy for her which wasn't a problem to collapse when the bus came. If I was stuggling, there was always someone on hand to help me - and this was in London.

Of course the law was more vigilantly enforced there - if a wheelchair user wanted on the bus, the mother with the pram had to either fold the pram or get off the bus.
220

YummyMummy,

29/07/2008 15:25:23
Pofi (Think thats a spellin error) I don't want an apology off you.
And no, i dont think #219 does have a sense of humour
221

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 29/07/2008 21:54:58
I suggest all Mums and children botcot lothian regional transport buses the loss of revenue will bring everyone to there senses or bancrupcy its easy
all consumers have the power in there hands to force the issue so boycott them and then take legal action under the discrimination act and Human rights Law.

 

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