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SNP plans to introduce local income tax 'fatally flawed'



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Published Date: 11 March 2008
BUSINESS leaders today claimed the SNP's plans for a local income tax to replace the council tax were "fatally flawed".
CBI Scotland said the flagship policy face a major hurdle because the Scottish Government had no power to require employers to collect the new tax.

The claim came as Finance Secretary John Swinney prepared to publish the government's consultation
document on its local income tax proposals this afternoon.

The plan to scrap the council tax and introduce the new tax, set at 3p in the pound across Scotland, was one of the SNP's key manifesto pledges at last year's Holyrood elections.

But the policy has already been dealt a serious blow by indications from HM Revenue & Customs that it will not help collect the tax.

And now CBI Scotland director-general Iain McMillan has added to the pressure on ministers with his warning about their lack of powers.

The local income tax would have to be collected from salaries and wages, unlike the council tax which is collected by councils.

But Mr McMillan said: "While accepting local taxes are devolved to the Scottish Parliament, what is absent from the Scotland Act is authority for Scottish ministers to require the Revenue or employers to collect the tax from them.

"The Act also makes it clear the Scottish Parliament cannot pass legislation which has an effect or impact outside Scotland – for example, employers in England having to collect the tax from Scottish-based staff."

HM Revenue & Customs has said it is responsible for collecting national taxes, not local ones and the proposed new tax is a matter for the Scottish Government.

Mr Swinney said discussions were still to take place with Revenue officials.

The chances of the plans for a local income tax being approved by MSPs are still not clear.

Mr Swinney has been holding talks with the Liberal Democrats, who also want a local income tax but argue councils should have the power to set their own level.

A spokesman for Mr Swinney described a 45-minute meeting with Lib Dem finance spokesman Tavish Scott last night as "extremely useful". And the pair have agreed to have further discussions.

But even if they can secure Lib Dem support, the Scottish Nationalists will struggle to get a majority in the parliament for the change.

The two Scottish Greens have indicated they are unlikely to back the new tax.

And both Labour and the Tories are firmly oppose to a local income tax, with Labour leader Wendy Alexander warning it would have "disastrous consequences".

A spokesman for the First Minister today played down the CBI's concerns.

He said: "All these practicalities were gone into in terms of the tax-varying powers of the parliament ten years ago.

"It would be to everyone's convenience for HM Revenue & Customs to act as the collection agency and use the existing machinery, which would free up an enormous amount of money currently tied up in collecting the council tax."





The full article contains 502 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 March 2008 9:55 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

yockel,

11/03/2008 10:11:30
Since when did not having the legal authority to do something ever prevent a statutory body from doing it. The SNP would not be alone, every toon cooncil has been at it for years, to the Polis it is a modus operandi.
The cross border issues are what will kill it.
2

Nikostratos,

11/03/2008 10:59:48
R.I.P local income tax strangled at birth.........
3

ptdoug,

11/03/2008 11:18:33
Surprised to hear the Greens may not support the Government on this issue.

I have been impressed with their political maturity since the election, unlike the LibDems, and would consider voting for them post-Independence.

However I am puzzled as to why they would support the retention of the horribly unfair Council Tax at the expense of the SNP/LibDem effort to finally introduce a much FAIRER system based on income and the ability to pay.

Come on you GREENS.... step up to the plate and help rid us of the grossly infair Council Tax.
4

Nikostratos,

11/03/2008 11:29:15
#3

tell me whats grossly 'INFAIR' about it eh?????

he he he he
5

subrosa,

11/03/2008 11:58:52
Fatally? Think that's the Hootsman's favourite word these days regarding anything to do with the Scottish government.
6

Rossmcl,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 11:59:03
ptdoug - Didn't you see Patrick Harvie on Newsnight last night? He was much more hostile to the Council Tax than I had ever heard him before. He actually said, given the choice between the two, he preferred the Council Tax. He actually said that!

It isn't going to happen. :(
7

Edward,

11/03/2008 12:10:42
It is no surprise tha this paper trots out the same old labour breifings, based on incorrect information and lies!
Take for example 'HM Revenue & Customs has said it is responsible for collecting national taxes, not local ones and the proposed new tax is a matter for the Scottish Government' Interestingly this paper doesnt actually provide a name of the person they are quoting.
But the fact is that HM Revenue actually have the mechanism in place to collect additional taxes in Scotland. The telling phrase from the so called quote was 'not local ones' actually this isnt a 'local one' its a national one as in Scotland
So please EEN, like the rest of the papers of the Labour supporting Johnson group, try for once and tell the tru facts instead of making it up!
8

Edward,

11/03/2008 12:15:34
'But Mr McMillan said: "While accepting local taxes are devolved to the Scottish Parliament, what is absent from the Scotland Act is authority for Scottish ministers to require the Revenue or employers to collect the tax from them'
Sorry wrong, mechanism is already in place to collect tax on behalf of the Scottish Government
9

Beergut,

Embra 11/03/2008 12:19:44
What is the point in having a locally elected representative body with devolved tax raising powers if there is all this nonsense when it plans to implement them? This will surely result in one of two outcomes, a call for complete independence or the dismantling of the whole principle. After 10 years of limited self-governance I see no appetite in Scotland for the second alternative. These people should really switch their brains on before opening their mouths and letting their bellies rumble.
10

Jambo Number 1,

11/03/2008 12:33:17
Simple,

Tell those B*stards down in London do:

A) Do what the Government of Scotland tells them to do.

B) Change any laws that need to be changed so the democratically elected Government of Scotland (and the Lib Dems amongst others) can put through their Manifesto pledges.


These departments need to remember who they work for.
11

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 12:43:04
This spat is just another rerason why we neeed independence.
12

Joe,

Little King Street 11/03/2008 12:43:22
Salmond personally going around the doors
to collect? He might even find out how unpopular the SNP are in the process?
13

Joe,

Little King Street 11/03/2008 12:45:45
#3..The greens help the SNP after the M74 extension decision...You are joking?
14

Epicuras,

11/03/2008 12:46:38
this was always a non-starter unless the ruling party in westminster bought it in - and nothing good for the country/people will ever come out of new labour; and they've wrecked Scotland with their dodgy concordat to achieve? - sweet FA
roll on the elections - scotland can't survive another 3 1/4 years of this crap
15

Miss H,

11/03/2008 12:55:43
Suggest you guys read the Scotland Act.
16

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 13:03:23
Joe #12
I think you will find that LOcal Income Tax is very popular with most folk compared to unfair Council Tax.

The sums are easy to work out £30 in every £1000 earned AFTER deducting your personal allowance of £5435. Compare this with your council tax Band bill.

For example a working couple earning £40,000 would be much better off.
17

ptdoug,

11/03/2008 13:09:57
#13, Joe,

I don't want them to... "help the SNP". I want them to help the people of Scotland by supporting a fairer method of funding local services.

A method that is based on income and the ability to pay.

A method that does not rob pensioners with no income of their savings. When their savings are gone... what then???

They'll have the choice to eat and heat their homes....OR, pay their Council Tax.

Just remember if they choose the former at the expense of the latter.... the Council can, will, and DOES send the sheriff Officers round to arrange a nice wee Warrent Sale.

It really is time our politicians stopped playing party political games and united in the best interests of the Scottish People.

80% of those polled want to see the back of the Council Tax. So whatever form or method of collection it takes for the Local Income Tax to succeed should be supported by all those elected MSP's that purport to have the best interests of Scotland at heart.

The SNP won the election with this policy at the heart of their manifesto.

Those seen to sabotage and/or black what has been demonstrated to be a popular policy with the Scottish electorate will, of course, have to pay the political price come the next election.
18

me150,

11/03/2008 13:12:18
Scrap the plans and while you're at it scrap the Scottish Parliament.
19

ptdoug,

11/03/2008 13:14:13
Nikostratos....

Before you start :-)

I meant "block"... not "black", in post 17.

:-)
20

Boswall,

11/03/2008 13:19:39
A classic example of the SNP loons (the posters on this site as well as those in the minority administration) not thinking things through.

First of all it's very easy to legally hide income. In fact those who are well off are more likely to do this than the ones that can't afford a decent accountant therefore I'd bet the rich would pay substantially less under a local income tax than they do under the council tax.

Secondly, what about those who live in England (or any other part of the UK) and work in Scotland, and the flip side those that work in England and live in Scotland? Do they get taxed twice? Would you be happy with that?

Just as well this has been kicked into touch. It's an ill thought out policy that plays to the SNP rabble that want their tax bill to decrease at the same time their dole increases.
21

Whatwasthatyousaid?,

Fife 11/03/2008 13:25:22
*16 Linda

Comparison of both taxes depend upon earnings and location of residence. A couple earning >70k in Fife would be around £700 worse off with local income tax as opposed to Council Tax. Local Income Tax then becomes unfair on such persons as they would pay more money than persons earning less for exactly the same level of services. We are supposed to striving to really become the best small nation in the world, quite how we achieve that with backward ideas I look forward to seeing.
22

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 13:41:39
~ 21,

Of course a couple earning 70k would pay more. That is only fair. You can't have a system where only folk with kids pay most as most of Council Tax goes on Education.

# 20 No taxation system is perfect and wealthiest folk will always shelter their tax liability.

People who live in England and work in Scotland don't contribute to Local Council Services at present.
23

Alasdair,

11/03/2008 13:42:34
Can anyone tell the difference between the Scotsman and the Evening News, or are they both short-sighted tawdry tabloids?
24

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 13:45:56
Council Tax is fatally flawed and unfair. Just look at the banding valuation on your house which has not been revalued since 1991 as government is scared to do it.

It is unfair and there is a case for Local Income Tax to increase and National Taxes to decrease so that folk realise how much of their cash goes to local government services.
25

Boswall,

11/03/2008 13:51:18
How about a system where everyone pays the exact same!

No - that's far too fair by half for modern Scotland, all the scroungers and benefit cheats would be up in arms and you'll have some halfwits whining on about Poll Tax this and Thatcher that.

#22 Linda - I think you'll find one of the benefits of CT is that people can't hide their house.
26

Gothic Rose,

11/03/2008 14:11:38
8# D**n, Fine, Splendid.
27

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 11/03/2008 14:22:48
The westminster unionists can try as they may to block - but this plan CAN still proceed.

Holyrood already HAS the power to vary income tax by 3%, as in the Scotland Act. If they were to do so HMRC would HAVE to collect it.

Therefore, another means to the same end could be to simply increase income tax by 3% - abolish the unfair coucil tax and issue all councils with a block grant. This years freeze, has after all, been paid for by increasing the block grant - so what's the difference?

What is also clear, however, is the waste of time, effort and money caused by the constant obstruction of westminster. Roll on Independence.

I think Nulabour's real problem with the abolition of the council tax is the removal of their ability to manipulate the council tax. Here in Glasgow we've actually just had our second freeze. The Nulabour administration in Glasgow work on a 4 year cycle of huge rises in council tax for 3 years followed by a bargain year just before the next holyrood election.
The problem for Nulabour with taxing income is that the council income goes up as wages do - no wriggle room - terrible shame that!
28

belzebub,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 14:29:27

One way or another you can simply guarantee that this will mean more working people paying more tax while the scroungers pay less.
anybody with any brains should quit this country as soon as they can unless they wish to spend their lives in poverty paying for civil servants inflation proof final salary pensions.
29

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 11/03/2008 14:35:58
#6 i thought I heard him say that he would prefer an improved council tax, or words to that effect. By the way, in my opinion the greens will abstain from the LIT vote.
30

Transparent?,

Scotland 11/03/2008 15:08:43
The SNP are between a rock and a hard place on this one.

Best thing they can do is dump the whole idea but if they do that, they know they will be ridiculed out of office.
31

Nikostratos,

11/03/2008 15:13:18
#19 ptdoug,

there are some spare places on my adult education courses if you are interested.......it's at night though..helped me a lot i can almost make some sense sometimes..
32

mac1888,

11/03/2008 15:21:57
This paper should be called the Unionistman!
33

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 15:27:54
Transparent?

88% think Local Income Tax is fairer and better system.
34

Boswall,

11/03/2008 15:36:49
Linda?

100% think paying no tax at all is the best system.

That doesn't mean they have a realistic or workable vision for the local taxation system.

How can 88% of people think the SNP's proposed LIT is a better system when ther's been precious little detail released about how it would actually operate? Perhaps this poll was conducted at an SNP party gathering....
35

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 15:46:20
the proposals will mean the biggest tax cut in Scotland in a generation with those on low and middle incomes better off by an average £350 to £535 a year.
Under the Scottish Government's proposals, on average:
• Single pensioners will be better off by £7.30 a week
• Pensioner couples will be better off by £13.80 a week
• Couples without children will be better off by £3.40 a week
• Couples with children will be better off by £3.10 a week
• One parent families will be better off by £5.40 a week
• Single people will be better off by £3.30 a week
• Households with multiple taxpayers will be better off by £2.50 a week
• Only the top income decile will, on average, pay more
36

Jwil,

11/03/2008 15:47:59
This title has been plagiarised from the Times. Nothing original or inspirational comes out of the Scotsman it seems.

Regarding the Local Income tax. Maybe we should just wait and see what happens. The SNP have been getting round many obstacles in their endevours to make Scotland a better place for its people. Take the freeze on the Council Tax as an example. The opposition said it would never happen.

The oppposition have told many lies in the past and are still doing so and the CBI have never been very supportive of anything the SNP have done.
37

Linda,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 16:03:08
Labour will be wiped out if they opppose the benefits outlined in 35 above.

The consultation proposes:
• A 3 per cent rate of tax applied to the income that is already subject to basic and higher rates of UK income tax
• A tax free personal allowance that matches the UK personal allowance levels
• Collection that complements the existing national system through Pay as You Earn (PAYE) and self-assessment
• Exemptions for savings and investment income
• A tax for second homes, subject to local requirements and with flexibility for councils to determine the rate of tax. It is proposed this will be collected by councils
38

familymanwith2jobsandawifeworkingfulltime,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 16:32:12
Glad to hear the proposals to introduce a local income tax are flawed. The SNP claim their tax is fair because it would be based on the ability to pay. UTTER ROT - it would be based on how hard any particular individual was prepared to work. How hard a person works, or how many jobs they have is a life style choice, but those who want to work hard and better themselves shouldn't be penalised to support those lazy ******** who wont. Governement policies should encourage hard work and not the other way around.
39

Boswall,

11/03/2008 16:32:29
Linda:

#35

• Only the top income decile will, on average, pay more

#22

No taxation system is perfect and wealthiest folk will always shelter their tax liability

I rest my case.
40

Bored,

11/03/2008 16:36:13
Isn't this tax a bit like the poll tax?
41

familymanwith2jobsandawifeworkingfulltime,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 16:43:22
40# Yes it is a bit like the poll tax - the only difference being, those who don't work, or very little of it anyway - would contribute nowt and these are the very people who would get the most out of the system. Makes you sick and certainly does nothing to encourage people to work hard. What is the point in having loads of jobs, trying to better yourself to get fleeced at every turn.
42

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 17:38:09
Another example of the lies the SNP told to get elected. They obviously said anything to get elected, and some of the population were gullible enough to believe it and voted for them. I did my research before placing the cross on my ballot paper - and I could see then that the SNP sums did not add up, and there was no way they could simply scrap the council tax. Those that voted for weasel Salmond and the rest of his clowns should hang their heads in shame. Roll on the next election so we can get these liars out!
43

familymanwith2jobsandawifeworkingfulltime,

edinburgh 11/03/2008 17:49:20
42# Couldn't agree more - the man is a fanatical lunatic, doing a lot of damage to Scotland. His local income tax would screw many familiies, one rung off the bottom and trying to better themselves. The real high earners - the people on £millions a year, would simply relocate 50 miles to England to avoid his greedy unfair tax - I know I would, if I could afford it.
44

Andrew Allan,

11/03/2008 18:41:12
#41., familymanwith2jobsandawifeworkingfulltime.
Considering those who don't work done pay tax or council tax now, how would a local income tax be at fault for recognizing the inability of those to pay without the money to do so.
45

John Knox furr First Meenister,

Hig 11/03/2008 20:19:25
All this who's better off nonsense is so bogus. Where did this 3p come from? It was a figure that could be sold to a gullible electorate cos it would make more winners than losers. 3p income-tax will only raise around £1.25bn a year whereas council-tax revenue in Scotland in the financial year just ended brought in some £2.13bn.
The Burt Commission, set up by the last exec to examine the alternatives, came up with 6.5p
46

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 11/03/2008 21:28:47
Again the SNP (and the LibDems to a lesser extent) have played a blinder on the opposition. If Labour opposes LIT, they pay a political price. If Westminster refused to implement LIT when passed by Holyrood( it is a devolved matter), I would not be surprised if Salmond urges Holyrood to dissolve the parliament and put the issue before the Scottish electorate.

It would be a very effective way to crush the Scottish Labour group and would also deal a near death blow to Westminster Labour either prior to the EU elections or prior to the Westminster vote.

The SNP has nothing to lose in pushing this forward. The LibDems see this as an opportunity to cut the apron strings with Labour and reclaim some of their past vote. The Tories can continue to push Labour into opposing the LIT. Thier position may hurt a wee bit in Scotland but a fatal blow to Labour would certainly help the Westminster Tories.

Look for a Labour meltdown as this issue evolves. It would not surprise me if Labour MSP's in marginals broke with the party and supported LIT.
47

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 11/03/2008 21:48:51
Lets face it, what is fatally flawed is the present tax regime in this country and that is what needs addressing as a whole. This is just part of the problem which sees a system in place that kids people on their income tax is getting lower whilst indirect taxation continues to climb and this tax affects us all regardless of income levels. Its nae fair and the CBI should recognise this fact instead of throwing up endless obstacles to change - they sound like a load of old Conservatives as usual.
48

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 11/03/2008 22:21:50
Were this solely a battle between Westminster and Holyrood then Westminster would win. Westminster gave the power of Government to Holyrood and Westminster can take it away.

But there is a rather large and potentially vociferous fly in the ointment, namely the people of Scotland.

This makes an already dangerous upcoming General election even more so should the sleeping fly leap into action and begin stinging Labour candidates all over Scotland.

Westminster can sabre rattle from now till Christmas but if the people buy into the Local Income Tax even Westminster will fold.

This next election looks like being so close every single seat will be vital for each party. Upsetting the voters in Scotland is not an option for any party, especially Labour.
49

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 11/03/2008 23:03:00
is that the only word politicians know tax tax tax born free taxed to death
50

Aýrshire Scot™,

11/03/2008 23:05:25
John Swinney is taking a hammering on Newsnight Scotland.

What an embarrassment.
51

on _the_level,

fife by the sea 11/03/2008 23:19:02
this comes in Im going to leave this little island with my wife and kids.
How anybody educated could invent a tax which penalises ambition.

Get more people of their bums and into work instead.
52

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:00:15
The simple fact is 85% (or thereabouts) of local government expenditure is currently collected at source,(PAYE)and paid to the councils via Westmonster.
All that needs to change is the current PAYE software arrangements which can be programmed into Inland Revenue's Computer.Who said so? Inland revenue IT staff did when this was first suggested years ago.
The only obstacle which can exist is called refusal to comply by Browns Clowns in London!

Thats where the fundamental flaw lies!
DOWNING STREET No 10 to be exact.
There are numerous IT people in the SNP and the Lib Dems who can assure you it is perfectly possible to do this,and this article is therefore born of desire rather than substance.

If we already have the mechanism (PAYE) in place only a moron would suggest that is cannot be used WHEN IT ALREADY IS ! Its only the amount taken in Scotlands case which varies from England and Wales,and any refusal to deny Scotland the right to raise and spend her taxes as she sees fit gives a clue as to the real purpose of devolution!
It was so that Westminster could keep Scotlands oil revenues,and they already know from the last forty years that we are stupid enough to let them .

53

morris,

edinburgh 12/03/2008 10:18:02
51

A tax which penalises ambition? PAYE is the fairest tax which can exist!Thats whay its called PAY AS YOU EARN and you already pay it, and ten times the rate that Scotland is asking for!
MOST Countries have copied it anyway.Where are you going to go to?
As long as they never introduce a tax which penalises peoples stupidity,then you should be okay!
54

on _the_level,

12/03/2008 14:10:59
# 53

You must be getting taxed fairly badly morris, the fairest tax ?
A tax which is to cover the cost of replacing the council tax, a tax on your income, the amount you earn defining how much you pay. Where is the rational of introducing an unfair tax,to replace another unfair tax.
Heres a scenario you work out if this is not stupid.
two families , neighbours, simliar houses if not the same , serviced by the same council, one neighbour has a higher paid job and hence pays more for the same service.
As for other countries they exist morris and I think you'll find a tax like this might get people thinking about coming here or going somewhere else.

 

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