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Under-21s face beer gardens ban under SNP alcohol plans



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Published Date: 08 October 2008
UNDER-21s could be barred from drinking in beer gardens or at pavement tables if controversial plans to raise the age limit for off-sales go ahead, according to city council chiefs.
They have warned that licensing regulations mean Scottish Government proposals to ban people under 21 buying alcohol at off-licences would also affect young people who bought a drink in a pub but then took it outside.

In its response to the consul
tation on the SNP Government's package of measures to tackle alcohol misuse, the council also came down against the idea of separate checkouts in supermarkets and voiced reservations on the proposed "social responsibility" levy to make pubs and clubs help meet the cost of antisocial behaviour.

A total of 530 responses were received to the consultation – 260 from individuals, 215 from organisations and 55 from MSPs and other sources. The ban on off-sales to under-21s has provoked a storm of protest and MSPs backed a Tory motion opposing the move, but so far ministers have indicated they plan to press ahead.

Edinburgh City Council said beer gardens operated under "tables and chairs" permits and because they were not technically part of licensed premises, drinks which were taken outside would be classed as off-sales.

The council questioned whether pilot schemes, including one in Armadale, proved raising the age limit to 21 would benefit communities.

It said: "We would like to see a more detailed study, similar to the West Lothian project highlighted, within a city environment such as Edinburgh to establish how effective it could be."

The council backed the Government's proposal to crack down on irresponsible drinks promotions and supported minimum pricing, though it said the drinks industry should have an input into the pricing structure. But it said separate checkouts for alcohol in supermarkets would "have no impact". And it questioned the proposed antisocial behaviour levy, saying: "We do not see how an objective assessment can be made of what premises is actually doing the harm."

Public Health Minister Shona Robison said the Government's proposals were unashamedly radical. And she welcomed the level of response to the consultation.

She said: "We will take into account all of the views expressed as we develop legislation to address an issue that has an impact on the whole of society.

"I believe we have a real opportunity here to bring about a long-term cultural shift to re-balance Scotland's relationship with alcohol, which more and more evidence suggests has got worryingly out of kilter."





The full article contains 430 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 October 2008 9:47 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/10/2008 12:07:34
These "city council chiefs" need a good kick up the backside for uttering such gibberish.

And Swanson is silly enough to print it.
2

Howard Moon,

08/10/2008 13:02:22
Well done to the SNP for actually addressing the blight of alcohol misuse in Scotland. The policies aren't perfect IMO just now but that's the point of having a consultation.

Shame on the Tories - they love to moralise and talk tough about the 'broken society', but can't resist the chance to engage in some cheap grandstanding when consensus and maturity is what is needed.
3

Bigwull,

edinburgh 08/10/2008 13:09:25
So what do you do if you are an under 21 smoker. can't go to beer garden to smoke, can't smoke inside, this anti alcohol crusade is insane.
4

Unimpressed one,

08/10/2008 13:10:28
#2, Then when a 21 age limit makes no difference, what then? Raise it to 25? 30? FFS get a grip.
5

Ghengis McCann,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 13:19:39
If anyone is indulging in "cheap grandstanding" here, it is as usual Salmond and the Gnats. Their anti-alcohol proposals are unsurprisingly being rubbished across the spectrum, because they simply won't work.

Prohibition laws did not work in the USA and they will not work here. Stigmatising young people by means of arbitrary age limits is both daft and unfair. It makes no sense that a young person can marry or die for his or her country at 16, vote at 18 but not buy a bottle of wine at an off-licence until 21.

If this is the kind of intolerant authoritarianism to be expected in King Smug's independent Utopia, most Scots will want no part of it. Social problems need genuine and mature solutions, not kneejerk gesture politics designed to buy votes.
6

Ecto,

08/10/2008 13:20:17
#4 totally agree the cooncil rake in far too much money by issuing licences to all and sundry, cut the number of licences down to a core of professionals (not every chippy and corner shop int he city) and then see if there is a drinking problem.
7

Destroy the Planet,

08/10/2008 13:22:56
The more i think of this under 21 ban the more i warm to it. Just think, no more stag and hen party dross out in the street. And no i couldnt give a t*ss if Toby and his third year law graduates want to but a bottle of wine for a dinner party, theres a bigger issue to address.
8

Destroy the Planet,

08/10/2008 13:25:13
In fact make it 21 right across the board, pubs, clubs and hotels and while your at it legalise cannabis so theres something better for them to take until they have to sozzle themselves with hard alcohol drugs at 21.
9

Spock,

08/10/2008 13:27:37
Wasn't it the SNP who wanted to give the vote to 16 year olds?

Why not just raise the voting age to 21, liability for tax 21, marriage, smoking, age of consent,driving license, x rated movies, and buying alcohol to 21. At least everyone under that age would have some consistency. I have found 21 - 30 year olds can be more obnoxious than youths.
10

PaulB,

08/10/2008 13:43:59
"Edinburgh City Council said beer gardens operated under "tables and chairs" permits and because they were not technically part of licensed premises, drinks which were taken outside would be classed as off-sales."

So does this mean pubs are presently operating illegally by allowing customers to take "offsales" into their beer gardens? I thought that required a different drinks licence. Surely if you buy a drink in a pub and drink on their premises (outdoor or indoor) that is not offsales? Can anyone explain?
11

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 13:52:35
Here goes the SNP (out of Office), this kind of 'legislation' can only result in a legacy of non-SNP support being generated amongst the under 21s affected when they vote at the next Scottish Parliamentary elections.

'Legislation' of this kind is simply political suicide.

12

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/10/2008 13:57:05
#5 Ghengis

Still talking nonsense.

Prohibition in the US context banned the sale, transport and manufacturing of alcohol.

are you seriously trying to draws parallels to the SNP proposals?
13

Christina, Aberdeen,

08/10/2008 14:04:52
Labour supporters have never been known to let minor details like the truth stand in the way of a good bit of propaganda.
14

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 14:48:16
If this isn't penalising the innocent, I'd like to know what is.

Resign MacAskill
Resign Robison

Scotland can do without your madness.
15

Jenny MacArthur,

08/10/2008 15:50:44
Good on the snp for trying to do something about the moronic behaviour of morons who have nothing more meaningful in their lives than to block out their empty existences by getting steaming, then making the world unbearable for the rest of us. Typical of morons like murderous fuel-head to want to ruin the world for everyone else in as many ways as possible, like all selfish gits who care for no one but themselves. Well done the snp for at least trying to constrain their criminal behaviour. And shame on the other parties for siding with booze-nutters and against the vast majority of the public who have to put up with their antisocial nuisance and danger to us all.
16

PaulB,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 16:25:19
Jenny - you are completely barking mad.
17

PaulB,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 16:48:17
Cheers Mario (woof woof!)
18

Alan B,

08/10/2008 17:06:22
What a stupid article.

This is part of the problem with any critism of the snp is just makes it up and becomes completely barmy.
19

Alan B,

08/10/2008 17:08:53
#Unimpressed one

Trials have said it does make a difference. That was the point in pilotting this policy.
20

aedis,

08/10/2008 17:36:53
Edinburgh City Council said beer gardens operated under "tables and chairs" permits and because they were not technically part of licensed premises, drinks which were taken outside would be classed as off-sales.

I think they're just grandstanding.

Don't know about Edinburgh City Council, but a beer garden is basically an extension of the curtelage of a public house. (Boundary of where you can drink.)

An on-license is used for pubs, restaurants etc. for people to drink within that curtelage.

Off-license is for selling drinks to be consumed away from the premises.

The fact that they're suggesting that moving drinks to the beer garden constituents an off-licence must get short shrift from the pubs themselves.

To test this, go to any pub with a beer garden in Edinburgh and open up any alcoholic drinks not bought from there.

I'd be amazed if you didn't get chucked out.

Yet if Edinburgh City Council is correct, you could argue that the beer garden is an off-license area and you'd be within your rights.

I just don't think their argument stands up, and that's why its grandstanding.
21

Rab haw,

08/10/2008 19:11:07
The SNP are to be congratulated for thinking about the health of young people and not considering them as just cannon fodder like the Westminster brigade who ship them off to fight in obscure places. The majority I feel would welcome something to put a halt to this problem of binge drinking and lets be honest about it drink is relatively cheaper now than it has ever been in living memory. Visitors to this country from the USA and Canada etc are amazed at how liberal we are with our drinking laws and are gobsmacked at the amount of alchol they see being drunk by young people especially. The problem is there to be seen and the question should be Why is Labour/Tory/Libs not prepared to face it instead of using the situation to try and rescue their disintegrating vote.
22

Media 1,

cape town 08/10/2008 19:11:14
This is funny, I actually agree with Salmond. But its so funny to see the SNP crew scrambling to defend their deity, Mr Salmond!

He could have reduced it to 16 and they would have praised him, he could have made it 25 and they would have praised him - the fanatical support is beyond comprehension.
23

Rab haw,

08/10/2008 19:12:25
By the way no 15 penalising the innocent is sending them to die in illegal wars.
24

Rab haw,

08/10/2008 19:15:21
media 1 the fanatical support here has nothing on the fanatical support I witnessed in your neck of the woods.
25

Media 1,

cape town 08/10/2008 19:29:57
#26 Rab

Youre not wrong! But then again this is a first world economy and infrastructure within a 3rd world country that has been independent for 14 years.

Ours is a country that has been independent for 300 years as part of a union - so no excuses!

The SNP support is quite disturbing because Salmond can do no wrong! He can do whatever he wants whenever he choses and he will get away with it - the liberation struggling freedom fighting masses will always run to his support.
26

danbob,

08/10/2008 20:01:07
Well something has to be done by somebody. If Salmond wants to try then he gets my support. Blair introducing 24hr drinking was the most stupid and illogical move I can think of. The fool thought more about the night time economy than the consequences. But why does nobody comment on supermarkets selling lager for less than 30p a can. Why are these pedlers exempt of criticism?
27

Media 1,

cape town 08/10/2008 20:18:02
danbob

The fact that Blair made 24 hour drinking a reality was not the problem. The problem was the result, which saw so many people lose control and behave like louts - something as common as some of the people in Britain
28

danbob,

08/10/2008 20:31:07
Media 1#

He was warned what would happen because people were behaving like louts before he did it. If you are fighting a fire out of control you dont pour petrol on to the flames. But that is what he did. When I was young and you went out on a Saturday night you were sober when you left the house. These days the binge starts at the local supermarket in the morning with their 25 cans for a tenner special offers. By seven in the evening most are already out of it and thats before they even step into a pub. Unfortunatly in my job I see the aftermath as the floatsum makes it's way home. It used to be on the late trains. But since Blairs brainwave you are just as likely to see it on the first trains on any Saturday or Sunday morning.
29

lachlan,

08/10/2008 21:40:27
vote loser
30

elayne,

08/10/2008 21:58:08
#17 jenny has a point
31

john z,

edinburgh 08/10/2008 23:00:00
Keep the weans (under 21's) out of the beer Gardens. Good idea. The Scottish Government are quite right to take tough action on alcohol, as it an absolute blight on Scottish Society.

To those weans (under 21's) who won't be able to smoke....boo-hoo. Life's hard isn't it.
32

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 08/10/2008 23:31:26
#33 Even harder if you're wounded out in the desert somewhere wondering if your wife and kids are ok back home.
33

Thomas Laprade,

Thunder Bay..Canada 09/10/2008 05:52:52
The end results will be Prohibition
Drip by drip

http://smokersclubinc.com
http:// pasan. thetruthisalie.com
34

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 09/10/2008 10:22:46
#32:

Yeah. Jenny has a point. Apparently it is to be found on the end of the proverbial knife she keeps sticking into the back of common sense.

To be honest, I didn't think the Royal Edinburgh allowed its inmates to use the internet. Maybe, nowadays they do?
35

Belinda-2,

09/10/2008 10:27:19
Morning Extra two days ago featured an interview with someone proposing to allow 16 year olds to buy their own beer or cider (not spirits) in pubs. I am sure the interviewee was English, but not sure if the idea has had any support in Scottish Government.

I think that once you reach the age of legal majority the government shouldn't mess around too much with how and where you buy legal products. The idea of a gulf of five years between the age when you are allowed alcohol on and off licence is quite unbelievable: there are areas of the country where young adults simply don't have any easy access to pubs and there would be a strong element of postcode lottery in the whole thing.
36

fresian,

edinburgh 09/10/2008 10:55:24
Jenny, "Good on the snp for trying to do something about the moronic behaviour of morons who have nothing more meaningful in their lives than to block out their empty existences by getting steaming, then making the world unbearable for the rest of us. Typical of morons like murderous fuel-head to want to ruin the world for everyone else in as many ways as possible, like all selfish gits who care for no one but themselves. Well done the snp for at least trying to constrain their criminal behaviour. And shame on the other parties for siding with booze-nutters and against the vast majority of the public who have to put up with their antisocial nuisance and danger to us all."

Are these the same morons who the rest of us have described as vermin in the past, and who you have stood up for their rights. Fuel head may well want use his car, as do many of us and it does not make us murderers. That is something quite different from going out, getting p1553d and stabbing someone, or getting together with a group of your mates and giving someone a kicking because they "were looking at you", live in a different neighbourhood or in your case, on a different planet.

 

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