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Parents in showdown talks with bus chiefs over pram ban



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Published Date: 22 August 2008
By HAZEL MOLLISON
PARENTS are set for showdown talks with Lothian Buses chiefs in a bid to overturn the company's controversial ban on prams.
Neil Renilson, the chief executive of the company has agreed to meet Malcolm Chisholm MSP to discuss a solution to the problem. Around a dozen mothers are also expected to attend.

MSPs have also signed a motion in the Scottish Parliament, criticis
ing the bus company for discriminating against parents.

Lothian Buses has said it received 131 letters, e-mails and coupons protesting against the ban. However, it also said 20 people had written to support it.

Mr Chisholm said he would like to see a trial period where prams were allowed on, provided they were moved to make space for a wheelchair.

He added: "This is a very complex situation. I'm of the view that parents with prams should move if a person with a wheelchair gets on board. We have to have a public education campaign that makes it clear wheelchair users come first."

Nicki McIntosh Lewis, 26, a mother-of-two and one of the campaign leaders, said: "A lot of parents would like to go to a meeting. We think it would be more effective to speak to them face-to-face. Some of the letters Lothian Buses has sent back have been ridiculous, comparing babies to dogs."

Claire Smith MSP has also lodged a motion in the Scottish Parliament, calling on Lothian Buses to change it policy. This has won the support of eight MSPs so far.

She also calls on the Parliament to note that "any exclusion of prams from Lothian Buses' services is likely to impact worst on poor families with no access to other forms of transport".

Meanwhile, Green MSP Robin Harper has called on the company to consider adapting buses to have space for both a pram and a wheelchair.

He said: "I would like to see Lothian Buses looking at its fleet and seeing if the buses can be adapted to accommodate two spaces, one for prams and one for wheelchairs.

"I do have sympathy with Lothian Buses because they are just trying to comply with the legislation but I would like to see the mothers and disability groups join up to fight together for better access for all."

A spokesman for Lothian Buses said it was happy to agree to the meeting with Mr Chisholm, and had suggested a number of possible dates.





The full article contains 414 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 August 2008 10:13 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Lothian Buses
 
1

Mikey,

22/08/2008 12:21:35
This one will run and run because the parents certainly won't!
2

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 12:22:39
"Lothian Buses has said it received 131 letters, e-mails and coupons protesting against the ban. However, it also said 20 people had written to support it."

There you go then. Democracy in action. Scrap the ban.

I bet they won't discuss the key point at this meeting---that of why the hell some people should take priority just because they are in a wheelchair. I know several people who use wheelchairs and not one of them expects themselves to be put above others in this manner.
3

aurorablue,

22/08/2008 12:23:13
can't believe LRT are so an@l!
4

Russell339,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 12:34:55
Why can't parents just buy fold-down prams; end of problem. If you don't like it, don't take the bus.

#2 I can't believe you could compare people in a wheelchair to a parent with a pram. It's about choice, parent's have the choice to buy a fold down pram, do wheelchair users have the same level of choice ?

It's not that long ago that buses couldn't accmodate prams or buggies, didn't hear much complaint then. Low floor easy access vehicles were brought in to better serve disabled people, not so Chantelle and little Donna-Marie from Niddrie didn't have to fold the buggy down !!
5

Labradoodle,

22/08/2008 12:57:27
#2

"131 letters, e-mails and coupons protesting against the ban and 20 people had written to support it."

It is a well known fact that people are more likely to put pen to paper to complain about something as opposed to giving praise. On that basis it is not exactly a good representation of public opinion.

I'm for yes to pram but MOVE if a disabled person gets on. This 'first come first serve' attitude is just ridiculously selfish.
6

A Leither,

22/08/2008 13:03:02
"any exclusion of prams from Lothian Buses' services is likely to impact worst on poor families with no access to other forms of transport".

I doubt that the poorest families will be able to afford prams - they'll have buggies, like most families do.

This whole thing has been blown out of all proportion. The simple solution is to buy a cheap folding buggy that you can use when you plan on taking the bus with your child. It's basic common sense.
7

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 13:04:33
#5:

Since when has "first come, first served" been selfish?

The guidelines on this say that should the area in question be occupied when a wheelchair user wants to board, then the occupant should move IF it is "reasonable and practical" for them to do so. I support this 100%.

However, it may not always be "reasonable and practical" to expect a mum with a sleeping baby in a pram, laden down with shopping, to disturb the status quo, especially if that would entail her getting off the bus and/or waking the baby.

Under those circumstances, the "first come, first served" rule should apply.
8

D2,

22/08/2008 13:05:02
Having watched the various stories over the weeks, i can't help feeling that there is one fundamental point that people like no 2 miss. Why do people in wheelchairs take priority over pram users -dead simple, the spaces were specifically provided for wheelchair users. You might as well ask why the first two rows of seats are marked priority for elderly.
Don't get me wrong, I think LRT is being pedantic -they could easily let prams on if the wheel chair space is not being used, and I do not support their stance, but I travel on buses daily and on the route I travel,I have to say there are several regular wheel chair users. Clearly they do not have the option to fold up their wheelchairs, an option which is available to most pram pushers.

I have only once seen a bus driver refuse access to a parent with a pram. On that occasion there was a wheelchair user already on the bus and there were THREE folded prams/buggies in the luggage rack!The driver even said he would be ablee to take them if they folded the pram, but the parent refused!

Another thing that strikes me is that if LRT were to refuse a wheelchair user access because a selfish fit healthy person was blocking the space, the Evening News would have an apoplectic fit.

Finally, lets not forget that we are talking about public transport, and that wheelchair users are members of the public too.
9

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 13:05:47
I hope when you have your meeting you use some common sense and courtesy (if you don't know what courtesy is, look it up in the dictionary)!

And to Robin Harper - what an idiot as usual! It would be a total waste of time to have two spaces as they would be rarely used, if ever.

What is fundamentally wrong is that this is a lazy generation. When my children were in their prams some 30 years ago, I used to walk to the shops, about a half hour walk if I went down to Leith but it did me no harm and it was good exercise. I know its not always possible which is why I invested in a fold down puschair to use when they got a little older and then I could venture a bit further on the bus. Not rocket science is it?

When I lived in married quarters in the south of England it was an even further walk and the bus was almost non-existent. Again we didn't moan, we just accepted it and got on with things. That's life, its not fair but that goes for all of us. You have just got to learn to make the best of what you have got. Simple as that.

#5 Exactly but its a situation which is unlikely to be an every day occurrence. I think in all the time I have used buses (and I do so on a daily basis) I have only seen a wheelchair on the bus twice.
10

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 13:09:56
#8 I agree that if a wheelchair user gets on the bus then the buggy/pram should be moved. However, they should not be made to get off the bus as they will have paid their fare and may not be able to transfer their ticket to the next vehicle, a wheelchair user could and the bus service in Edinburgh is a good one so they would not have to wait very long for the next one.

You will never please everyone, whatever the situation, so its no good even trying! As I have already said, you must just try to make the best of the situation and use a little courtesy and good old fashioned common sense!
11

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

22/08/2008 13:36:06
"We have to have a public education campaign that makes it clear wheelchair users come first."

That a public education campaign is needed to explain something so basic indicates that some of these mothers must be thick as planks. It's an insult to Father Darwin that they've actually bred.
12

James (1),

22/08/2008 13:36:23
Why not make the mother pay for the baby and the buggy or pram. Then it is first come first served.
As it is the mother can bring heaps of stuff along with her child, pay one fare and cause disruption for all. Then again she is a mother and we need to look after her child!
13

James (1),

22/08/2008 13:38:04
Note to LRT- There is money to be made. Charge for the buggy/pram!
14

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

22/08/2008 13:39:29
#5 reckons: "It is a well known fact that people are more likely to put pen to paper to complain about something as opposed to giving praise"

Whereas strangely, on the Evening news website, the reverse is true.
15

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

22/08/2008 13:41:27
"Having watched the various stories over the weeks, i can't help feeling that there is one fundamental point that people like no 2 miss"

Indeed. Sadly some disabilities don't involve a wheelchair.
16

YummyMummy,

22/08/2008 13:50:30
#13

Shall we charge people with shopping an extra charge too as theyre not going to put their new purches on the floor? And the obese too? Behave!

It does seem though that the majority of people are against the ban.
17

YummyMummy,

22/08/2008 13:51:40
Excuse the typo lol
18

artemisclyde,

22/08/2008 13:52:18
If they manage to sort this out, please can the EEN headline be:

Pram ban, thank you Ma'am?
19

Kitty K,

22/08/2008 13:56:44
If a mother knows she will be using public transport, then it is up to her to buy a buggy which can be folded away. It is then up to her how much "baggage" she can carry and still be able to fold the buggy down if need be. In any case, if a wheelchair user needs to board a bus which has a mother, baby and buggy in the allocated space, then the mother should have no choice but to fold her buggy down. If a mother does not have a fold down buggy then she will have to leave the bus to make room for the wheelchair user. It is up to her to think ahead. She has a choice, a wheelchair user does not.
20

Labradoodle,

22/08/2008 13:57:24
#7 first come first serve is selfish when you have have the choice to walk, a choice someone in a wheelchair doesn't necessarily have. Remember it is a space dedicated to wheelchair users to comply with the disability act.

#15 by your comment do you mean that people on here don't like to complain on this site??

21

Crank Parent,

Livingston 22/08/2008 14:07:47
Why not just use a sling? I'm expecting my sixth anytime now and I've never taken a pram on a bus. A sling is so much easier. Nicer for mum and baby and it leaves hands free for shopping and other children.
22

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 14:11:19
#20 For goodness sake! Lothian Buses have won the award for best bus service in the country on more than one occasion. Does this not tell you something? Do you expect people to walk in the pouring rain? And why should someone get off the bus when they have paid their fare?

However, what I would advocate is a bit of courtesy and common sense. By all means allow both but let the pram user move and please, fellow passengers give him/her a hand to get organised. Also to the disabled person, I have every sympathy for you, but try to be a bit more gracious than some people I have come across in the past. Please and thank you doesn't take much to say but it can make the world of a difference. Try it, you might just get a surprise!
23

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 14:14:15
#21 - someone with common sense at last! I used a sling too, but its not always convenient if you have shopping but that's what a taxi is for, isn't it?

We in West Lothian have to be more paradoxical in our thinking, don't we? Our bus service wouldn't win any awards unless there is one for the worst bus service in the country that is! So we have to just get on with things as best we can.
24

YummyMummy,

22/08/2008 14:21:13
#22

Think its safe to say LB wont be winning any awards this year!!
Theres actually a few things that annoys me. 1 is when theres a child of about THREE sitting in a buggy in the wheelchair space. I mean, that child could easily walk on a bus.
And 2, when people moan because i choose to have the buggy sitting beside me. I do this because its alot easier to get the buggy on and off the bus. I started doing this after i put the buggy in one of the old style buses standin rack and it fell on an OAP when the driver braked suddenly. And another time on a new style bus when there was another bigger, heavier buggy on top of mine and really struggled to get it out of the rack.
Anyway, rant over!
25

tomias,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 14:45:54
Bring on child.buggie friendly trams
26

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 15:04:35
"Mr Chisholm said he would like to see a trial period where prams were allowed on, provided they were moved to make space for a wheelchair" - where does Mr Chisholm suggest a non-folding pram moves to? The only place it could move to would be off the bus. What if the selfish parent refuses to fold the pram? Chisholm obviously hasn't a clue what happens in reality. He should have thought about what he is suggesting - his suggestion will cause umpteen problems for the driver, who will no doubt face a tirade of abuse from the public.
27

John Knox furr First Meenister,

High St, EMbra 22/08/2008 15:07:24
#24 me me me me! I remember many years ago I used to think how ridiculous it was that so few places accomodated kids for lunch or whatever. See now... I hate them coming into my cafe or restaurant. Bliddy noise and their besotted bliddy parents.
Anyway, rant over (not)!
28

YummyMummy,

22/08/2008 15:14:19
#27

Kids will be kids eh! Enjoy your lunch.
29

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 15:14:58
#27 - I agree with you completely about kids and the disturbance they cause in cafes and restaurants. I have had many a meal spoiled by the brats running riot in a restaurant. The parents clearly have no control over them, and in later life, when in their teens, the kids carry on their disgusting behaviour and start abusing and assaulting pensioners. Kids should be permanently banned from cafes, restaurants, public transport, and any other public place.
30

YummyMummy,

22/08/2008 15:18:29
#29

LOL!! Oh how you make me laugh. So basically until you are 16, your not allowed out your front door? And i thought you were one for education! It would probably be easier for people like you to be banned from public places. No wonder you get abuse hurled at you with that kind of attitude.
31

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

22/08/2008 15:34:27
#30: The world would be a better place if we locked all the kids in a cupboard under the stairs until they were 21.
32

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 15:36:39
#30 Again I say how easy you are to wind up!

I would say you should be extremely grateful that you have a good bus service. If you had to rely on Firstbus you would have something to complain about and I have no doubt that you would do so.

To everyone - not just you - please just use common sense and courtesy. The world will be a better place for it and you will not be so wound up.
33

YummyMummy,

22/08/2008 15:49:47
#32

As far as im aware, its actually the first time youve said that but anyway. I have had to rely on Firstbus when i stayed in Rosewell several years ago when the only bus that ran there was the 79. Never had any complaints to make about it to be honest, it always ran to time. Maybe its just West Lothian were they dont provide a bus service up to your standards.
And maybe the way you see it is i am easy to wind up. Way i see it is sticking up for what i belive in. People who are anti-children seem to forget that they were once children or did they just come into the world as a fully fledged adult?
34

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 16:17:22
#33 Just to set the record straight I am not anti-children having had two of my own and now with three grandchildren.

I didn't actually mean you personally but then you seem to take every comment on this site personally so I would say the problem is with you.

Also you were very lucky if you had a good bus service from Firstbus in Rosewell. They certainly don't provide a good service in West Lothian and it is not just me who will tell you that. I only wish I could use Lothian Buses - I did when they were in West Lothian about 15 years ago and I would again.

Its not the children who are the problem anyway, it is the selfish adults who set their children a bad example. In my experience children who have a good role model generally behave well so if the cap fits....
35

James (1),

22/08/2008 16:22:53
#16 "you" don't charge anyone. Lothian Buses is a business and mothers are using this business to get there small cars, sorry prams that are the size of small cars from A to B. Make them pay! Let's see if they really need this pram when they have to pay for the privlege of inconvienencing all their fellow passengers.
Sorry, I forgot you are a mother and it is then up to me and other members of the public to suffer in silence cause mummy is using the bus!
36

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 16:28:02
#35 Steady there - she can't take a joke and might just blow a fuse!

The trouble is with this argument about the accessibility for prams on the buses common sense and courtesy appear to have gone out the window.
37

JFW,

22/08/2008 16:40:22
Something to consider - anyone who has a negative opinion of a parent being on the bus with an unfolded buggy should try the following...

find 2 children, one being a baby and the other a toddler. Take any collapsable buggy and a bag of shopping. Place baby in buggy, carry shopping and toddler and make your way to the bus-stop. At bus-stop attempt to fold buggy and deal with baby and toddler and bag of shopping until bus arrives. When bus arrives, attempt to get on with folded buggy, baby, toddler and bag of shopping while sorting out exact change for ticket. Then try to stow buggy while carrying baby and shopping and while trying to prevent toddler and yourself and baby from being injured as driver lurches away from bus-stop and most people ignore your plight. To be honest, and having done this with 3 young children, I have more sympathy for the parent than a wheelchair user. Most folks will find this difficult even with just one child in the buggy.

This is a non-issue. Wheelchair users and parents who don't have at least 2 pairs of hands can easily use these spaces without conflict, as long as a bit of courtesy and common-sense is involved. Personally I think a parent in that situation has as much right to use the bus as a wheelchair user.
38

DoesItMatter?,

22/08/2008 16:46:26
#37

As a mother of a baby and a toddler, i know EXACTLY where you are coming from.. but i have a feeling that is going to cue alot of 'back in my day..' stories.
39

JFW,

22/08/2008 16:48:28
PS - what is Lothian Buses policy for wheelchar users when there is standing room only on the bus and the aisles are full? Do they prevent people standing in the wheelchair space or in the aisles just in case someone in a wheelchair is waiting on the route somewhere? I doubt it.
40

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 16:50:59
#37 Precisely - each has a right to use the space equally and if people were more prepared to lend a hand there would be no problem. So come on folks, show us how nice you can be and lend a hand.

As for the "in my day" stories, well in my day people were more willing to help. I was almost always offered a seat when I was pregnant or had my children with me but this is not always the case nowadays. Common sense and common courtesy that is what is required to solve this problem.
41

Ni Collain,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 16:51:05
I can't believe the person who suggests getting a taxi if you can't get a bus - from the 'let them eat cake' school of thought it would seem.

Fold down buggies are available for very young babies, but not all of them can be used for newborns. Perhaps mothers who use busses would have taken this into consideration when buying their prams/buggies if LRT had this strict policy before, but maybe car drivers can compare it to being retro taxed on a car you've already bought, thinking you knew how much it was going to cost you.

For all those who it would seem hate children unless gagged and bound, maybe you should have that chat with your own mothers
42

Linmal,

Livingston 22/08/2008 16:52:32
#40 Again, precisely, but they have no more right than anyone else, do they? No-one ha any more rights than anyone else in this world, at least that is how it should be.
43

JFW,

22/08/2008 17:00:09
Another thing to consider. Very young babies are supposed to lie flat not curved as they would be in a buggy (bad for their backs). They should be in prams which are not all that foldable. So what are responsible parents using prams supposed to do?
44

Ni Collain,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 17:05:17
#43
no one as far as I can see is arguing with the fact that if a whelchair requires the space - it gets it, no contest, that's not really what this is all about, if you can't fold your pram, you take your chance and get off if you have too - but you have to be allowed on the bus in the first place, are people with large items of luggage, too heavy to put on the rack not allowed on for this reason.. not that I've ever seen
45

m m,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 17:08:07
Please please just go back to the way it was before, you can fold the buggy i use down and i would get of if a wheelchair user was getting on the bus but it is not the drivers that are bugging me it's the old biddy's on the bus casting the dirty looks and making snide comments when you get on the bus with a buggy.
It is very handy to get on the bus with the baby still in the buggy, with my 22lb boy, a buggy and all his changing stuff it is hard to get on and of not impossible but hard.
The comments people make about years ago are not really relevant today, i could not walk everywhere i have two other older children, i work as a nurse 3 days a week, i need to use the bus as i can not drive. Times have changed.
When i had my first 13 years ago i also found Edinburgh to be a far friendlier place with many people willing to give you a hand, also we did actually used to have buses that allowed you to take on your pram, c5 or c55 anyone? Bring them back.
46

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 17:23:42
#8:

"the spaces were specifically provided for wheelchair users."

No they were not. They were provided for wheelchairs AND prams.

#45:

"your definition of "reasonable" is "don't argue with me because I'm always right".

Well spotted!

I really find it difficult to believe that anyone supports YET ANOTHER mindless ban designed for the stupid.

What are you all? Bl00dy sheep?? Open your eyes for christs sake. No doubt some of you would support the idea of having to get a permit to get out of bed in the morning!

There is NO need for this ban. No-one should EVER take priority over anyone else. First come, first served IS the correct way.

Those who think otherwise, how would you feel if you were waiting at a checkout queue in a supermarket when just as you were about to be served, someone pushed in in front of you and claimed that theye were allowed to do so because they were in a wheelchair/blind/deaf or whatever?

Unless you were a complete, no-hope nugget, you would be annoyed. It's the same principle when someone with a pram is suddenly thrown down into second place because a wheelchair user "takes priority".

I've never heard anything so utterly ridiculous in my life andI never would have believed that not only would it happen in Britain, but that people would actually be dumb enough to support it.

I've had enough. I'm going down the pub and I'm going to sit in the wheelchair area on the bus on the way.
47

DoesItMatter?,

22/08/2008 17:36:58
Lothian Buses need to update their website...

Our policy can be summarised as –

wheelchairs have priority;
if the wheelchair space is not required for a wheelchair, anything/one else can occupy the space;
but only on the understanding that they vacate the space if it is subsequently required for a wheelchair.
This means that whatever is occupying the wheelchair space, be it standing passengers, passengers sitting on the “tip-up” seats located in the wheelchair space, suitcases, bulky luggage or any baby or toddler transport device (buggy/pushchair) etc, has to be moved out of the wheelchair space to make way for a wheelchair if a wheelchair user subsequently wishes to board. Thus whatever is in the wheelchair space has to be capable of being moved (and safely stored in the luggage rack or elsewhere) when required.

Doesn't say anything about prams being BANNED outright.
Maybe pram users should print that out and show the driver when trying to get on the bus. Obviously any rules they are enforcing, should be clearly visible on the website.
48

Sports for Edinburgh,

22/08/2008 19:01:00
PRAMS ARE NOT BANNED! They never have been. All that parent's are being asked to do is take their child out of the pram/ buggie and fold it up! This is to save space, and allow more passengers on and save space for those in a wheel chair.

I know that this might not be the easiest request for some people to follow... but it is not impossible.

EEN, please fix your headline to be more accurate. I suggest "Parents in showdown talks with bus chiefs as they refuse to fold up their buggies". Slightly more accurate me thinks.
49

m m,

Edinburgh 22/08/2008 19:10:58
# 51
As far as i am aware LRT bus drivers were shown pictures of carrycot prams with matresses and told not to allow these types on the bus. My mother's friend who is a bus driver said that there was an incident when a mother with a carrycot (which i'm not sure how having a carrycot which would take up two seats would save space when taken apart), she had it next to her with a newborn in it and the bus jolted forwards and the carrycot fell onto the floor, the baby was unharmed.
50

DoesItMatter?,

22/08/2008 19:19:55
#51

Prams are banned. Why else are mothers with prams being told their not allowed on the bus? The only type allowed on at the moment are fold up types.
51

Driver,

lasswade 22/08/2008 20:05:19
MY EMAIL TO LRT

I’m not expecting a reply to this but I’d like to make it quite clear that your current policy of not allowing prams on board an LRT bus because they can’t be collapsed is quite deplorable. To say that a mother and baby should be refused any access to a vehicle when the WC space is empty is beyond belief. I hope LRT are never in the dock as being the culpable party when a baby is taken ill as a direct result of being left in the cold too long when buses that have empty WC spaces are refusing to allow that passenger to board.

It would seem that the designers you employ are neglecting mothers with children if a second space solely for the use of parent with child can’t be made available. Supermarkets are often criticised for various reasons but at least they cater for parents with children. LRT continually pat themselves on the back as being a great operator but that it is very clearly not the case if even the most simple of alterations to the seating plan can’t be made in order to accommodate at least one mother/parent with pram on a bus.

To try and make this a WC v’s baby scenario is absurd, you should be doing your best to accommodate both. As a direct result of this fiasco and after a lot of thought I will now make alternative arrangements for my travel.

As someone who has worked within the transport industry for 16 years and in demand responsive transport for people with disabilities the whole time, I was under the impression that organisations like the one I work for were under threat because the bus companies had finally got their act together, but reading over and over again how you are misinterpreting the DDA to the exclusion of some members of our community I know that there will be a need for us for a long time to come.

You may also like to note that most people with wheelchairs have mobility allowance and access to services such as Taxi card, Handicabs and other like minded organisations at their disposal while young fam
52

Driver,

lasswade 22/08/2008 20:07:29
AND THEIR RESPONSE

Dear (me)

Thank you for your email.

We do appreciate the difficulties that some passengers may have when using public transport and our aim is to provide transport, within the law and where practical for all of the public. To provide a second space solely for the use of parent with child would require the removal of seat already designated for the disabled and would cause further problems for them. With regard to your comments that "most people with wheelchairs have mobility allowance and access to services such as Taxi card, Handicabs and other like minded organisations at their disposal while young families with babies in prams or buggies may have a very limited or low income and see public transport as their only option," We don’t apply any kind of “Means Test” to intending passengers, nor do I think that it would be right for us to do so. I am sorry to read that you will now make alternative arrangements for your travel. Please find attached an statement which I hope fully explains our position and on behalf of Lothian Buses may I thank you for contacting us on this matter.

Yours sincerely
John Quinn
Customer Services


PRAMS/PUSHCHAIRS/BUGGIES POLICY

Contrary to assertions being made in the media, Lothian Buses’ policy on this matter has never changed. Ever since we introduced the first wheelchair accessible buses in 1999, our policy has been the same.

There are clear legal requirements (detailed in Appendix 1) placed on bus operators regarding the carriage of disabled people including wheelchairs users. The law requires service providers to make reasonable adjustments to their “practice, policy or procedure” to ensure that it is not “impossible or unreasonably difficult” for disabled people to make use of the service. Since 1999, the law has required all new buses to be wheelchair accessible, and lays down precise details of the dimensions and features of bus construction to allow wheelchairs, up to a certain s
53

Sports for Edinburgh,

22/08/2008 20:08:49
#52 & #53. According to LRT (travel office, waverly bridge)all prams and pushchairs are permitted as long as they are folded and stored as luggage.
54

Driver,

lasswade 22/08/2008 20:08:51
PRAMS/PUSHCHAIRS/BUGGIES POLICY

Contrary to assertions being made in the media, Lothian Buses’ policy on this matter has never changed. Ever since we introduced the first wheelchair accessible buses in 1999, our policy has been the same.

There are clear legal requirements (detailed in Appendix 1) placed on bus operators regarding the carriage of disabled people including wheelchairs users. The law requires service providers to make reasonable adjustments to their “practice, policy or procedure” to ensure that it is not “impossible or unreasonably difficult” for disabled people to make use of the service. Since 1999, the law has required all new buses to be wheelchair accessible, and lays down precise details of the dimensions and features of bus construction to allow wheelchairs, up to a certain size to be carried on buses.

There is no legal mention of, or requirements, regarding buses providing for the carriage of prams, buggies, or any “baby or toddler transport device”.

Our policy has always been that the primary purpose of the wheelchair space is to accommodate wheelchairs. That is why the law requires the wheelchair space be there.

Equally our policy has been that when the wheelchair space is not required for a wheelchair, we are perfectly happy for any other traveller with any other “encumbrance”, be it buggy, pushchair, large packages, suitcases, bulky shopping or the like, to occupy the wheelchair space on the clear understanding that if a wheelchair user subsequently wishes to board the bus, whoever or whatever is occupying the wheelchair space, will vacate the space to allow the wheelchair to use it. In the case of a “baby or toddler transport device” (BTTD), fold it up and place it in the luggage rack, under the seat, or elsewhere.

Thus the key issue is that whatever occupies the wheelchair space, if it is not a wheelchair, must be capable of being (folded up if necessary and) put away safely elsewhere on the bus, to allow a wheelchair
55

Driver,

lasswade 22/08/2008 20:15:48
So there you have it.....this is very much a WC versus the baby pram issue, no chance of LRT trying to accommodate both.

What if some poor tourist visits Edinburgh and doesn't know the rules tries to board the bus? If they don't have the "right" type of pram then they could be left stranded by LRT. I just hope this doean't happen during the winter festival and some baby is left at a bus stop in the middle of a blizzard.

Would action be taken against a driver who decided that the humanitarian thing to do and pick up a that baby?

It's pathetic that in the 21st century a couple of side facing folding seats can't be fitted into a bus. they could be folded out of the way when a pram was needing the space and used by the gen public when no prams were on board.

and before anyone starts the issue that side facing seats are in some way dangerous, they should think of the fact that LRT allow wheelchairs to be on the vehicles with nothing restraining it and should there be a colision, both the wheelchair and it's user would be thrown, so i think safety is the last thing LRT is thinking about
56

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

22/08/2008 21:29:44
ban the prams & that big girls blouse, Malcolm Chisholm
57

pofi,

22/08/2008 21:55:38
All those who are sick of this never-ending debate between whingeing mums, petrol head nutters, selfish people who if they can't see a wheelchair user think they don't exist and those with common sense, send an email to Lothian Buses in SUPPORT of the ban.

If you can't fold your buggy you don't get on, end of story. The space IS designated as being for wheelchair users, however much in denial you are about it.

Personally I am not in the least bit interested in the opinion of anyone too thick to notice that Lothian Buses replaced LRT many years ago; do any of you actually use buses? Or can you just not read?!
58

Julian.,

edinburgh 22/08/2008 22:54:12
Fuel head,

Sorry but your "first come first serve" mantra just doesn't wash.

Why should wheelchair users who have no choice in the matter have their spaces taken up by mothers with prams which do not fold down who have a clear choice in the matter?
59

Julian.,

edinburgh 22/08/2008 22:59:15
#60,

I did agree with the first part of what you said.

Unfortunately, if you think not knowing the current name of Lothian Buses renders one too thick to have a useful opinion, then it does mark you out as a bit too unreasonable yourself to have a valid one.
60

pofi,

on Planet Literate 23/08/2008 09:33:01
Julie-anne,
I didn't say that those still stuck in the 90's with the LRT branding didn't have a useful opinion; just that I am not personally interested in what they have to say. Nor in what you have to say.

What planet could you be on not to notice the massive Lothian Bus branding all over the majority of buses in Edinburgh and the Lothians?!
61

Number1,

anywhere 23/08/2008 11:36:20
LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES LOTHIAN BUSES.

NOT ''LRT'' GOD DAMN IT!!
62

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 23/08/2008 13:50:07
58
read the conditions of carriage and the road traffic act constuction and use of public service vehicle you will find that not only Lothian Buses but all public service vehicles have the same regulations i.e. no luggage or large items shall be left on the floor of the vehicle......as for those who think that if a wheelchair takes priority over standing passengers i.e. during the rush hour the answer is no...... the capacity of each vehicle is clearly shown with the word 'or' wheelchair therefore if the standing capacity has been reached a wheelchair can not board nor a pram/buggy.....we as drivers do not just answer to our bosses but to traffic commisioners and the road traffic act so until you have these affore said acts I would refrain from making incorrect comments
63

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 23/08/2008 14:00:11
58
your further comment on wheelchairs being unrestrained again is incorrect........ a wheelchair or a pram/buggy for that matter must be correctly positioned to avoid any problems of toppling etc in the event of an accident.......i.e. the wheelchair/buggy or pram must be positioned with the user facing rear of vehicle,the back of chair/buggy must be against the bulk head of vehicle or the folding seat facing the rear with the brakes on,this way as the position of grab rails etc are fitted the wheelchair/buggy can not move sideways and if the vehicle is involved in accident or emergency stop the occupant would not be thrown from chair as is with any vehicle stopping suddenly everything is thrown in a forward movement therefore wc/buggy would be forced against bulkhead reducing the chance of injury to occupant....this is how all drivers have been informed the space should be used and therefore i think you should once again get the facts right before making comments
64

,

23/08/2008 16:22:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

pofi,

teetering on the edge of ... 24/08/2008 11:50:29
#67- You said it yourself, you are wrong again! Of course I meant to call Julian Juli-anne, otherwise I would have called him #62! I'm sure he's used to it- poor guy.

Thank you #64, you have vindicated my point- and one made by others previously. Whilst #67 thinks the name change made many years ago is immaterial the rest of us are left wondering as to whether Lothian Region still exists... maybe in his little world.

Incidently #67 "purile" is actually spelt correctly as "puerile". But of course you meant that didn't you?!! I would have taken you as being more typical of a James (No. 2)really...

Now can we return to this utterly riveting Ban Prams Now debate please?
66

rs,

in ma house 24/08/2008 18:06:43
the old question, what did people do before "low floored" buses.

No wonder FIRST in the Edinburgh area prefer the older buses without Low Floors.
67

Ileach,

25/08/2008 19:49:51
Correct me if I'm wrong - but did this entire discussion not begin when a mother with a DISABLED baby was refused entry to a Lothian Bus? The child was on constant feedings that did not allow her to be carried in a fold-down buggy. So - if these spaces are for the handicapped, be they wheelchair-bound or otherwise, the baby girl was certainly handicapped, and her pram was as much a requirement as a wheelchair is to it's user. There should be a distinction made - there are callous, selfish persons, and then there are those parents who need a space on the bus, with a pram, because the child within is disabled. In such a case, first-come, first-served would make sense even to a wheelchair-bound person, I would bet.
68

James (1),

27/08/2008 19:49:20
I apologise to all whom I have offended. I must have touched a raw nerve and got too near the truth. So much so that some mummy has asked for my comment to be removed! Were it so easy to shift mothers with buggies?
#69 congratulations! You scored big time on the LRT bit and now that I know the real name of the company I can see that it changes everything and makes mothers the most important beings who must be given priority on buses. My argument that mothers are the most selfish individuals and care only for themselves was sort of wrong.
By the way rain man #64 needs help!
69

Jimmy B'Umlove,

East End (Boys) 16/10/2008 00:19:06
Jist let prams oan buses FFS! Ah've never seen a wheelchair in aboot 5 years, be that oan a bus, in the street, in a shop ... anywhere. Go back tae old style buses, an if ye cannae fit yer pram or yer chair oan it, ye dinnae git oan.

Buses are fur gits onyway!

 

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