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Bus talks fail but mums insist it's not the end of the road



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Published Date: 10 September 2008
PARENTS today vowed to continue fighting despite Lothian Buses' refusal to back down on its controversial prams ban.
MSP Shirley-Anne Somerville described talks held with bus company bosses yesterday as "disappointing", but vowed they would not give up their campaign.

Parents criticised the company's "unresponsive" attitude after trying to find a compromise by u
rging bosses to allow prams on board, on condition they vacate the wheelchair space if required.

But the bus company insisted that buggies were only allowed on provided they could be folded. The policy is not new, but the company only began strictly enforcing it in July.

Now parents say they will be taking their fight to the Scottish Parliament. More than 1000 people have already signed their petition. Ms Somerville, who represents the Lothians for the SNP and has a two-month-old daughter, said: "It was very disappointing that they don't seem to even want to find a compromise or a way forward.

"The mums were very keen to work with them to find a solution to the benefit of everyone. It's unfortunate that they turned the offer down.

"I think they're the only bus operator with this policy in the UK.

"It's disappointing that for the first time Lothian Buses is not leading from the front, and welcoming people on to public transport.

"They don't seem to understand mums with babies under six months can't use the buggies that they're suggesting.

"This policy will make new mums very isolated. It's also unworkable – there are a huge number of' types of prams and buggies, and it's unreasonable to expect drivers to know which ones are allowed on.

"I would still hope Lothian Buses will reflect on the meeting and change their minds.

"The campaign is going on and this isn't the final word."

The MSP was joined by three mothers as well as David Hunter, the city council's former accessible transport manager, at the meeting.

He had argued that the introduction of low-floored, accessible buses had been designed to help all the community, including elderly people and parents with young children.

Catriona Black, one of the leading campaigners, said: "It was very disappointing, but this is not the end of the road. We'll take the issue straight to the Scottish Parliament and beyond.

"We're interested to see if this contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights. In terms of gender equality, this is an issue that largely affects women."

Caroline Burgess, 27, from Barnton, added: "Lothian Buses were absolutely unreceptive. We proposed we'd help them with an educational campaign which would look at passengers having consideration for other people, and vacating the space for a wheelchair.

"We will be seeking legal advice from the highest possible level. We think parents with children and young babies are being unfairly excluded."

A Lothian Buses spokesman said: "I can confirm that a meeting has taken place with Lothian Buses and a parent delegation led by Shirley-Anne Somerville MSP. This was a useful opportunity to explain our policy which is designed to provide the maximum benefit to all users of Lothian Buses' services."

Drive on to keep essential routes
COUNCIL chiefs have released details of the under-threat Lothian Buses services they want to save.

Officials have identified the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary to Gyle number 18 service, and the number 13 Blackhall to city centre service as among the essential routes it wants to keep going.

Nightbus services N16, N26 and N44 would also be given a six-month reprieve under the £124,000 plan.

The package will be discussed by councillors next Tuesday.

The council-owned Lothian Buses wants to axe or cut back a total of 16 loss-making routes by October in the face of falling passenger numbers and big increases in costs.

The administration had previously ruled out proposals to pump £300,000 into subsidising the under-threat services, claiming it had no money to do this.

Council chiefs had also asked Lothian Buses to look again to see if it could save money on staffing levels or the number of new buses it leases to prevent the cuts, but the firm said this was not possible.

Lothian Buses is facing a steep rise in employment costs of £2.7 million, due to the need for more drivers for the extra buses it needs for the tram diversions. The diesel bill has also risen by £1.95m.







The full article contains 748 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 September 2008 10:43 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Lothian Buses
 
1

craig7653,

Port Seton 10/09/2008 11:44:48
For crying out loud. Haven't these mums got anything better to do. NO PRAMS ON BUSES. End of story. Ban them all, no if's no buts.
2

John Knox furr First Meenister,

High St, Embra 10/09/2008 11:54:43
Nooooooooooooooooooo!!! Waaahwahh waaah!!!!!
3

Linmal,

Livingston 10/09/2008 11:55:49
Don't you just wish this was all over and done with?

What is so wrong in buying a conveyance for your child that can be folded? It stands to reason that there are more parents with children travellig on the bus than wheelchairs. Can you imagine what it would be like if there were four or five mothers (or fathers) boarding a bus with a pram that couldn't be folded? For goodness sake get something that makes your life easier! It's not rocket science, it's common sense. Old fashioned, I know, but an essential if you want to get anywhere in life.

People with wheelchairs are a different matter but, again, only one can get on the bus at a time. If parents folded down their pushchairs, they could get on at the same time.

Lets be nice to one another and try and get on. Say please and thank you and maybe just maybe you will be helped, when necessary.

The European Convention on Human Rights? Please!!! The fact is you are trying to board a bus, the space is limited, you can't get a pint into a half pint pot!
4

capy,

embra 10/09/2008 12:06:05
You cant cut the N44 how do i get home after a couple of lemonades.??
5

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 10/09/2008 12:07:59
OMG I wish they pram pushers would give it a rest

It should be considerd a privilege being able to push your buggy/pram onto a bus without folding it down.

Remember the dark ages - not so long ago in fact - when you were not able to do this. Us pram pushing mothers coped

Get of your lazy a55e5 and walk, just like mothers before you had to do for soooooo many yearsssssssss

BAN THE PRAM!
6

Phil MaGlass,

Holland 10/09/2008 12:15:42
Nae pity for the mums, you want kids, you shouldnt expect everyone else to go out their way to accomodate you, tough 5hit
7

MOE,

Edinbyrgh 10/09/2008 12:15:50
Why not get R.O.S.P.A check how safe a child is in a pushchair when the bus brakes suddenly or is involved in a accident.Surely the childs safety is a number one priorty.Also remember very few are strapped in.
8

Pacob75,

10/09/2008 12:16:05
Well done to Lothian Buses for not backing down. I see that they're now saying it might be against their "Human Rights". Now that's really scraping the bottom of the barrel IMO.

Funny how there's no quote from David Hunter though, has he "seen the light"?

Time for another cr@ppy coupon campaign huh Hazel?
9

the dog,

embra 10/09/2008 12:17:08
i'm told by a bus driver friend that notices have gone up in the garages stating that drivers will be disciplined if the wrong type of pram is found to be on their bus, seems there may be more refusals now, happy walking ladies
10

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 12:17:52
It is rather shocking to see that the bus service cuts are only a sub-text under the "main" story of mothers having to fold their prams; this "news" paper really needs to get its priorities right
11

Cappo Del Monte,

10/09/2008 12:28:42
While i feel sorry for the mother and kid on the bus that got shot, it points out it can be dangerous with a pram
12

James (1),

10/09/2008 12:33:44
Ms Black says-"We're interested to see if this contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights. In terms of gender equality, this is an issue that largely affects women."

Why not attack the problem you have created by going the other way? It could be against minorities- Men.
Everyone likes a minorities picked on story and how they fought back!

Now let's return to the real world- It is your pram or buggy and not the person in it or the person who cannot be bothered to push it that is the problem.

Human Rights Act, the straw to be grasped whenever your argument does not stand up to reason.
13

Jasbar,

10/09/2008 12:53:00
Want to bet all the sad numpties on this thread who have no sympathy for mums are all males?

You don't cater for mums with babies on buses, then they just take the car. End of.

Now that's some bus service eh?

All that's happened here is that council fascism has found its way to its own bus company.

Quality.

14

Randan,

10/09/2008 12:53:54
Funny how we are all moaning about traffic congestion, and yet mothers trying to help out by getting buses are getting attacked by you thoughtless twonks.

Think about it.
15

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 10/09/2008 12:59:44

#14 yeh right, whatever Jasbar.

As for 'catering' for mums on buses, now there's an idea. LRT (which doesn't exist, but is easier than typing Lothian Buses PLC, Annandale Street, edinburgh) should have a creche on the bus with a salsa dance class for bored mums on longer routes, and a free 5 piece chicken dinner at tea time.
16

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 13:00:30
#14,15 No, actually all people want is for them to fold their buggies rather than unnecessarily take up a huge amount of space which inconveniences other passengers. Perhaps if they paid a £3 fare per buggy it might be OK.
17

Linmal,

Livingston 10/09/2008 13:01:48
I don't drive - I use the bus!

What I am advocating is courtesy towards your fellow passengers. Remember courtesy? A quaint old fashioned thing we were once brought up to observe.

If more people did this, the pram issue would never have arisen because people would have behaved in a courteous and sensible manner.

Right, its not too late to try. Any chance?
18

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 13:02:27
Surprising amount of ignorance amongst these posts. Folding pushchairs are not suitable for young babies under 6 months.

And why can't the wheelchair space not be used by a small pram when not being used by a wheelchair user?

And what's with all the anti-mother & baby posts? You were all babies once, and you all had mothers!

Why are mothers and babies expected to walk everywhere whilst everyone else can use the bus?
19

"Hoots" Fandango,

10/09/2008 13:03:25
Foldable babies are the answer.
20

Vic,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 13:09:11
#20 Not true. There are loads of folding buggies that are suitable from birth. We had a mclaren.
21

Pacob75,

10/09/2008 13:10:03
14 & 15 - You both miss the point.

20 - There are alternatives to non-folding prams you know. I used a sling with mine whenever I had to get the bus - no problem. The ignorance is from the selfish minority who refuse to accept this fact.

Again, you also miss the point. The space is designed for a WHEELCHAIR. The fact that you can get, a pram, buggy, half of IKEA etc in there is merely a side effect of this.
22

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 13:11:39
Bl00dy Hell! How much longer is this going to go on?

The principle is "First come, first served". Even a kid at kindergarten could see that.

Whoever is in charge of Lothian Buses should be sacked immediately and then committed. He is clearly insane.
23

sick of edinburgh,

10/09/2008 13:12:43
There are folding pushchairs suitable for babies under six months. Its a question of buying the pram to suit the type of travelling you do, not buying the type of pram you think will impress due to its high cost.
Have a go at the pram designers and ask them to design a very expensive collapsing pram. Leave the bus companies alone.
24

Linmal,

Livingston 10/09/2008 13:13:37
Also many of the posters have had children themselves and, I presume, managed to travel with their children. I had a pram but didn't use it on the bus. When I wanted to use the bus I used a pushchair which folded and before that my friends and I used to take turns to babysit if one or other of us had to travel somewhere by bus. Surely not too hard to do?
25

Teofilio Cubillas,

10/09/2008 13:15:12
"We're interested to see if this contravenes the European Convention on Human Rights. In terms of gender equality, this is an issue that largely affects women."

I'm sure those right-minded politicians who conceived the European Convention on Human Rights in the aftermath of the Holocaust will be delighted to see it being put to such a trivial use.
26

Teofilio Cubillas,

10/09/2008 13:18:46
"Caroline Burgess, 27, from Barnton, added: "Lothian Buses were absolutely unreceptive. We proposed we'd help them with an educational campaign which would look at passengers having consideration for other people, and vacating the space for a wheelchair."

There's the rub though, Caroline. They don't vacate the space for wheelchairs. They sit there, chewing gum while looking the other way.
27

Big bob 79,

10/09/2008 13:19:35
All mums
If you want to hurt Lothian, simply all of you stop using the bus. Passenger Lothian Buses numbers are falling, prices of using the bus are set to rise, journey times are through the roof due to roadworks.
My small family binned our ridacards in favour of a small car, the benfits out way the costs and it works out faster and cheaper to pay for a few hours parking over the £1.10 each way for both of us

Bob
28

Cassandra,

10/09/2008 13:24:13
Bus drivers have a chart showing which buggies are allowed and which aren't. I'm damned if I can see any difference between one model which is foldable and allows the baby to lie flat, and another which isn't foldable. Why don't you just buy one of these foldable buggies that lets the baby lie flat. if you know you're going to be dependent on the bus for transport? And are all these new mums so rich they can afford to buy another buggy when their brat gets older? If not, why are any manufacturers making buggies in which the baby has to sit up?

Not all buses are accessible, so wheelchair users can't be sure they will be able to get on the next bus that arrives. That, I guess, is why Lothian is enforcing this rule. Also, once someone has paid their fare, they have a contract with the bus company, so can't be forced to get off. After all, why should they pay again to finish their journey?

Maybe Lothian should charge full fare for non-folded buggies - or anything else taking up the space specifically designed to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act. I have seen people practically flitting, with all their worldly goods in the wheelchair space!

29

arthur conan,

edinburgh 10/09/2008 13:24:23
Common sense indeed! when i was young my mother took myself and my sister and the shopping on the bus without any problem no buggys back then. two kids for free and a half fare for my younger sister. Nowadays mums demand buggys and prams on the bus and all kids to travel for free.We do have a decent bus service for the moment and are lucky enough to have low floor buses.I was on a Lothian bus last night when a wheelchair user tried to get on and the young mother in the buggy told her she was not folding the f****** buggy. Enough said. I pity the drivers
30

Pacob75,

10/09/2008 13:28:27
30 - Sorry Bob but you're incorrect. The average cost of running a small car over a year is around £2,500 - £3,000. Faster? Yes Cheaper? Definitely not!
31

Des Gruntled,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 13:37:59
I find it incredible that some politicians are now getting involved, considering the reason there is a disabled space on a bus in the first place, is because it's a direct result in the bus company requiring to complying with the Disibilty Discrimination Act (and quite rightly so), an act brought about by politicians!
32

Caz1311,

10/09/2008 13:43:30
Night bus services stopping? Looks like it'll be more than just the mums walking...

Seriously, there are some occassions where a mum and her baby must travel but she can't walk and can't drive because of, for example, a caesarian section (and let's not start up that contemptable "too posh to push" nonsense again, you don't get a choice here)

What about doctor's issuing passes to those mums who have absolutely no choice but to travel on the bus (because not all can afford taxis) with an expiry date, in the same way as disabled badges are issued for car parking.

I agree that mums whose buggies do fold should if they can fold them, either to let on wheelchairs, or mums with babies who cannot travel in folding buggies. Please don't judge all mums by the ignorant few that wont.
33

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 10/09/2008 13:45:39

Bus mums mump gums - wee Shuggy not in foldable buggy? Sorry missus.
34

sick of edinburgh,

10/09/2008 13:47:16
Bus companies just need to keep stalling these young mothers for a few months more until their kids start toddling. They will then abandon this complaint as their children are out of non collapsing prams and move onto other pressing personal issues they feel indignant about.
Probably be something like 'Why do we have to make way for disabled in the wide aisle of supermarkets' or 'I am busier than anyone else and have a right to park my 4x4 on the yellow zig zags outside my childs school and I refute I am a danger to everyone else's child' .
35

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 13:54:40
No doubt there are a few selfish people that don't vacate the wheelchair space when requested to, but this policy is punishing all mothers with babies who need to use public transport. I say mothers because they are the ones who bear the child and are recovering from giving birth, and therefore less able to walk for miles.

Even if there are certain types of buggy that are suitable for unde 6 months and are collapsible, are we supposed to go out and buy yet another buggy because Lothian Buses have suddenly started applying this policy? We don't all have hundreds of pounds to spend on bugaboos you know.

As for a sling, if you are a mother who's recently given birth then you'll likely know all about lower back pain.

Also not everyone has someone they can use as a babysitter every time they need to go to the shops.
36

Loving Mother,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 13:57:58
Craig 7653 What a pity his brain stopped growing when he was a Baby otherwise he would not make such stupid comments and if he should have the misfoprtune of becoming a Father Poor Child.
37

The Judge,

10/09/2008 13:58:52
Edinburgh Evening News your place for all the local news on:

Trams
Prams
Bams(Ritchie/Cornelius)

38

sick of edinburgh,

10/09/2008 14:04:55
No42 walking is a great way to get fit after having a baby and giving birth does not impinge on walking abilities unless you are the rarity who has severe complications during and after the pregnancy. I used to walk for miles with my babies and didn't bother with a bus too often. When I did I used a fold up pram because the bus had no room for a coach built silver cross. No idea what you mean about lower back pain using a sling. Mine just got too heavy eventually and I often thought a papoose might have been better.
Lothian buses did some people a favour letting them on with prams that don't collapse but the nice gesture was abused hence the ban. The space is for wheelchairs only. Think in advance of your purchase and buy the pram that suits your travelling needs.
39

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 14:22:40
#45 Walking is good for getting fit again yes, but it s also a good way to get soaked in Edinburgh this summer!

#46 looking through this person's comments, they are fairly idiotic.
40

Linmal,

Livingston 10/09/2008 14:23:34
#42 - Can't you just use your common sense? Buy one buggy which will adapt. They are available and if you can't afford it, then you shouldn't be having children anyway.
41

Jasbar,

10/09/2008 14:24:29
Yeah, forget it. Let's bin the buses cos they don't cater for our needs and let's all use cars.

Less congestion on the roads caused by empty buses blocking the roads.

Yeah, good idea, let's bin the buses.

42

sick of edinburgh,

10/09/2008 14:25:26
#49 now you blame the rain! Just buy a pram thats fits on buses if you cant walk.
43

Linmal,

Livingston 10/09/2008 14:26:02
#42 I actually didn't really mean that. If you wait until you can afford children you would never have them!

But this argument just rumbles on and on.

The bottom line is it is public transport and it is a business to make money. It is there to serve the public but also to turn a profit. Simple as that. Also they have to comply with the Traffic Commissioners and the Road Traffic Act so have no choice but to enforce certain rules. You just have to live with it. And as the majority of the rules are in order to protect the safety of the public, I don't see what the problem is. If they didn't have rules like that people would soon be up in arms about it!
44

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 14:27:47
#50 Had we known that Lothian Buses were going to apply this policy, then we probably would have! We do actually have a folding pushcair, but it turns out our baby finds it uncomfortable if in it for long periods.
45

sick of edinburgh,

10/09/2008 14:29:57
#54 , Did your baby actually tell you that?
46

pofi,

10/09/2008 14:31:14
WELL DONE Lothian Buses. Don't give into them, the general public is becoming heartily sick of the whingeing.
This ridiculous campaign is turning the majority of passengers against the very women who are attempting to gain sympathy. Save your money and your energy.

Get a buggy and get on with your lives; before your husbands get totally fed up with your pointless campaign and skedaddle with their secretaries...

Incidentally of the many who support the Ban most are parents if not mothers who can't see what your are complaining about. We've all been there and done that, we survived and so did our children.
47

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 14:31:40
#55, yes, although not using words as our baby hasn't learnt to talk yet...
48

sick of edinburgh,

10/09/2008 14:32:41
You are so funny, bless.
49

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 10/09/2008 14:33:42

1. Does anyone know if National Express trains have free wireless network internet?

2. Is it possible to uninstall Windows Media Player, or would it be easier to bite my elbows?

3. #51 yeh, Jasbar, whatever.
50

James (1),

10/09/2008 14:36:24
Can I make you aware that I also feel victimised by the bus companies just like the women.
I enjoy painting and decorating and help out others on a voluntary basis.
However when I try to get on the bus with my pasting table the driver tells me I have to fold it!
Do you think this is right or should I be going down the route of Human Rights infringement claim?
I will not mention what happens with my tent when I go camping.
51

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 14:41:59
#59 Somewhat off topic, but:

1. Yes they do... free in all coaches
52

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 14:45:32
#62 I am listing reasons to support my point of view. Sorry if you are unable to make a reasoned argument to counter that.

Public transport should be all inclusive and not discriminate against sections of society, whether it be wheelchair users or parents with buggies.
53

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 14:48:10
#64 And what about wheelchair users? Are they also a danger to the bus? Are you suggesting they should also fold their chair for safety reasons?

This debate is about buggies occupying the wheelchair space when it's not in use, in case you've forgotten.
54

Kenster,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 14:50:24
#64 - and nobody is suggesting that anyone should be allowed on a bus with a full size silver cross style coach pram from the 1970s. We are talking about a small buggy that is no bigger than a wheelchair.
55

James (1),

10/09/2008 15:08:35
#67 you are using a small buggy as an example but you must have seen there are some out there who have buggies the size of small cars and give them their due they will struggle and force their way onto the bus. Once there however they are there until destination is arrived at.
They do make the token gesture of feigning moving when they are clearly in the way.
LRT as I like to call them are quite right. Mums you had your chance and failed.
So no prams allowed should be the decision.

56

Jorge,

10/09/2008 15:15:53
Thats´the lot. Just ban women with kids from buses and leave the rest of us in peace,females and children are a bad mix.
57

JG,

Fife 10/09/2008 15:48:38
#66 Kenster
You've lost it there! The spaces ARE for wheelchair users and built for that purpose. They also don't have the options mums with pushchairs have. Ever tried to get on a bus with an unfolded buggy partially blocking the passageway? It's a hazard for people who are maybe just a bit unsteady on their feet or somewhat stechy!
58

rabmataz,

10/09/2008 16:04:08
my bike's smaller than a pram and I can't take it on a bus - stop girning ya muppets (or, even better, stop breeding)
59

fresian,

edinburgh 10/09/2008 16:30:04
The only thing this whole affair shows is that public transport is sh17e and not a viable option for so many of the population. This is not going to encourage the travelling public to leave their cars at home.
60

Joe Smith.,

Lapland 10/09/2008 16:50:15

Why don't these beleaguered mums show a bit of initiative and start their own bus company.

They could also sell toy buses too for the wee ones to construct, at a shop called Build A Bus Workshop.

There could be a sub-post office in back, free cuppa tea for anyone buying more than one stamp, and a quantum light rail network operating on the Schroedinger's cat theory - it either exists or it doesn't, or both. Because the universe folds in half, or something.
61

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 10/09/2008 17:00:39
public transport is for everyone
but can you take your pram or buggy UNFOLDED on a plane
62

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 10/09/2008 17:02:41
and all you mums out there we bus drivers dont hate you all we want is you to cooperate with us you do that we let you on bus you either fold or leave if a wheelchair needs thats problem over
63

Mallory,

Edinburgh 10/09/2008 17:51:01
Some of these eight wheel monster prams are being used as shopping trolleys. Fold em up or carry the kid and leave the space for wheelchair users. If you want a shopping trolley go to the supermaket and push one home.
64

Andrah,

Embrugh 10/09/2008 18:02:51
It is only relatively recently that so-called low floor buses came into being. The design alterations meant that in order to (on rare occasions) accommodate wheel chairs and disabled, the front of the bus was designed with a large open pen (resembling a cattle truck) curtailing the number of seats near to the door in the lower deck. Consequently a huge proportion of bus passengers, who, whilst not disabled, are somewhat frail and elderly often cannot get a convenient seat and are subsequently thrown around the "cattle pen" area frantically trying to find a pole to grab and support themselves.
65

dancing ship,

10/09/2008 20:13:04
Its Strange that this is happening at the VERY SAME TIME as route cuts are happening?

I dare say there covering that up very well with this pointless story.

What about the CUTS???
66

ellie2,

edinburgh 10/09/2008 20:40:06
there used to be a big shelf in the front of the bus on the right hand side - where are you supposed to put your folded buggy now they don't have those shelves anymore? try holding onto a baby, a nappy bag and a folded buggy whilst mr lrt speeds along the glasgow road at 45mph
67

level head,

Kirkcaldy 10/09/2008 20:56:17
How many people have tried to balance a baby on one hip, carry purchases, carry the necessary items for a small baby e.g. feeding bottles a change of nappy etc. fold down a folding buggy and get seated before the bus moves from the stop?

Which is more dangerous not just to the baby and the mother but to other members of the public when someone is struggling not only to get on the bus but to get of the bus at the right stop?

A baby in a sling is fine but what about the other things that have to be carried

The people out there who haven't tried it should do so before they make comments.

A very concerned member of the public.
68

Sunny Jim,

10/09/2008 22:03:40
When I was going into town with my babies I carried them in a sling. It's ridiculous in the extreme, selfish, lazy and thoughtless etc to even try to take a pram onto a bus.
69

Brodric,

10/09/2008 23:42:23
Yippee - thank you LRT - for taking a stand against a bunch of whingeing mums.

Good threads Pacob75 (no 24) - and as usual from The Genuine Mario Antoinette, especially the response to Kenster over the lower back pain.

No 42 Kenster - get a life and stop being so mollycuddled/mollycuddling. Women have given birth since the year dot; they had the babe, strapped said wean on their back/front and continued picking rice. The very fact that western women lie on their backs to have children is a sign of our mental weakness over what is a natural happening.

As for not being able to walk miles - who says they should have to - they have a lot of alternatives for getting on the bus - and a sling with up to 3.5 kilos in it won't affect your back at all. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

The arguments for allowing baby vehicles on the bus are just ridiculous (given the alternatives and the temporary nature of the situation) and all allusions drawn with wheelchairs are just shocking and bear no comparison at all.

Taci din gura.
70

Brodric,

10/09/2008 23:47:38
82 - Levelhead. What is wrong with you. get organised.

LRT drivers are mostly careful when people get on their bus with all kinds of impediments. They give you time to get on and get seated, for the most part. And people are often helpful to mums.

But, get yourself a nice wee rucksack with a lot of different pockets in it to hold all the stuff you need; put your sling on the front - and then you have a free hand for the buggy.

When you see your stop coming up, press that red button that rings the bell. A little sign comes up "Stopping", so you know that this has been noted by the driver. Don't get up until the bus stops, you have plenty of time.

Use your head!!
71

Kenster,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 00:36:47
#84 Brodric - that'll be the same 'The Genuine Mario Antoinette' that had an offensive post removed by admin for being racist and sexist... yeah... good one!

As for your ludicrous 'points', yes, why not go back in time before the internal combustion engine was invented, then there won't be a debate about who gets on a bus!

Other than walking, just what do you suggest as alternatives to a bus in Edinburgh? Car? Taxi? Hoverboard?

And which women do you know of give birth on their backs? Is your experience of seeing childbirth from watching Casualty?


Babies may be born around the 3.5 kilo mark, but they don't stay at that weight!

72

pofi,

11/09/2008 08:30:17
Kenster: Please stop being such a woose. Shut up and get on with it. You've all lost the argument, get used to it.
Brodric made some very good points as have very many other posters over the preceding weeks. If you choose to ignore them or fail to even comprehend them then that's your problem.
We are all sick of the endless whining- do you get it?!
73

pofi,

11/09/2008 09:31:14
Shore: As most of the posters on this subject are bus passengers, we ARE affected by this issue!
I'm a female as are many other supporters of the Pram Ban and I'm embarrassed by the continual whining and laziness of some of my fellow members of the female species. Other posters who are male have stated that they are parents and have had experience in transporting their babies on buses.
So, sorry, but your assumptions are wrong, and offensive.
74

AB's,

11/09/2008 10:12:59
''Be green, use the bus.''

''Save time, use the bus''




We get all these drilled into our heads, and we get made to put up with all the hassle of getting green bus lanes put onto our roads - all while getting told it will be worth it.. its to make public transport better...

Well Im sorry but its hardly public when prams are banned, where there is a baby there tends to be pram.. end of.. thats not fair.

I completely understand that if the child is of age to stand .. eg 1 or 2.. but it is a little unfair to expect a parent MALE or FEMALE to try and:
1. Hold a baby (or two)
2. Fold a buggy down (have any of you actually tryed this??)
3. Carry an amount of shopping bags
4. Hold baby bag (of which is normally rather heavy)
5. Get all this onto bus & pay driver.

All while putting up with the child screaming, and annoying passengers looking on.. and I bet no one offers to help much.

This is stupid.

Pram Ban is stupid.

It needs to be fixed.

If there is a wheelchair needing the space then fine, but otherwise prams should be allowed on or LRT should be providing buses on specific routes that can accomdate for both prams and wheelchairs.

If it was wheelchairs they were trying to ban there would be uproar.

And dont even bother telling me all parents should drive - do you know how expensive it is for lessons, and the tests.

So far mine is totally at around £200 in lessons, £50 in tests.. and there is another £60 in lessons and £55 in tests in the pipeline.

Stop being inconsiderate.. buses are public, for everyone including PARENTS and babies.
75

Kenster,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 11:01:32
#87 & 89 Pofi - I don't see why making a case for mothers with buggies being allowed to use the bus under certain conditions is being viewed as 'whining' or being 'mollycoddled'. I am making a case for a relatively vulnerable section of society to be allowed to use our public transport, which is supposed to be a service for everyone.

I haven't heard from anyone what the alternative for mothers is. Walking? Well why doesn't everyone walk then? I suspect most of the people objecting to buggies on the bus are fitter and capable of walking than a mother with young child.

Also I suspect few have experience of getting about with small children.

And telling someone to 'shut up' and 'get used to it' is not a mature way of arguing a point of view, unless you are maybe 5 years old.

76

Pacob75,

11/09/2008 11:09:27
92 - I'm not objecting to buggies on the bus. I'm objecting to your objecting of your perceived objecting by some of the posters here!
77

,

11/09/2008 11:22:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

sick of edinburgh,

11/09/2008 11:48:46
#90

Alternatives are endless, you appear to be ignoring them. We are now at 93 comments. FACT...The space is for wheel chair users and never designed for prams. If you want a pram on a bus get your purse out and buy a folding one.
79

Kenster,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 11:53:58
#93 Which 'endless' alternatives am I ignoring? If you mean get a folding pushchair, we already have one, but others have made the point of how impractical it is to get on a bus with shopping etc and get a baby out of the pushchair, fold the pushchair, and get seated before the bus takes off and sends you sprawling on the floor.
80

sick of edinburgh,

11/09/2008 12:14:58
Get a life, this is ridiculous. Do you think you are the first mother in the world? If you cant manage with a baby you should not have had one. Parents have travelled with children on buses with ease since the first bus came along. You are not owed any special favours. You chose to have a child. You chose to buy a pram that doesn't belong on a bus. You are not disabled, you are a mother, there have been millions of us and you do not qualify for any favours.
81

AB's,

11/09/2008 12:21:48
#90

Could you please go on about these alternatives?

The only ones I can think of are
taxis - cost rather a lot
car - again cost a lot and not everyone can drive.

As for walking, have you tried pushing a baby around all day with everything they need for the day, along with the shopping etc???

Also most people have folding down buggies and prams, but sadly most of the prams made for children under 1 are bigger and bulkier... even if they can fold down, they get refused for being 'bulky'

Would you put your newborn child in a ratty old buggie that you normally see kicking about the flats in edinburgh?? Hardly safe, with no support.

Gawd you really arent the brightest are you??

Smaller the baby, the bigger the pram.. it should not effect your rights to get on a public transport bus!

What do we pay taxes and bus fares for??!!!

LRT now only has one way to end this, design a flipping bus that can accomdate prams and wheelchairs, and have them running alternatively for example the number 26 bus (which runs farr to much imo)
No.26 normal bus.. 12pm
No.26 with extra room for both prams and wheel chairs 12:15pm
No.26 normal bus.. 12:30

There everyone is happy.
82

sick of edinburgh,

11/09/2008 12:35:47
AB's, you are a charmer aren't you resorting to personal abuse because most of the population of Edinburgh doesn't agree with you. What does GAWD mean? Are you making up new english words?

If you can, read the comments, you are being given alternatives but because you can't get your own way you refuse to see them and new silly ideas of why you should get a pram on a bus appear on line. I had three children and didn't have a 'ratty' buggy. I had a british kite marked collapsible pram for when I needed to use a bus. No matter how insulting this new generation of mothers want to be because they are not being allowed their own way, the fact remains the space is for wheel chair users. You are not disabled, you chose to have children and you chose to buy a pram unsuitable for Edinburgh buses.
83

Kenster,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 12:45:19
#95 Another response that simply dismisses a point of view they disagree with by hurling insults. Why not stick to reasoned argument?

Nobody is asking for any 'favours'. We are merely asking to be able to use a bus. Are you failing to understand the practical difficulties a mother encounters on a bus with a folding pushchair, as I have already explained? You clearly have no experience of this yourself.

Allowing mothers (or fathers) to park a buggy (not a large pram) in the wheelchair space, if it is not being used, seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to me.

It would appear however that some are bitterly opposed to this and would prefer to force mothers to walk for miles in any weather just so they would not have the very mild inconvenience of negotiating their way past a buggy (taking up no more space than a wheelchair user might) to get to their comfy seat on the bus.
84

AB's,

11/09/2008 12:50:34
I actually dont have a child, I am talking in reference to my youngest brother - whom used to use a buggy, and the smallest one we could find was pretty bulky.

I think it is completely unfair that parents - not just mothers - are having to put up with this.

You talk about having our own way, well thats hardly true b'cos if we did the world would not have inconsiderate people on it.

Why call it public when they are rufusing to let certain people with buggys use it?
Now if LTR could provide somewhere for the child to be seated while mother struggled to fold her buggy that would be a different matter.

All I am saying is I get annoyed at disabled people moaning about whating to be treated normal, but when they are faced with a first come first served service that they dont like - it all gets changed for them.

LRT need to consider all their passengers, elderly, disabled, children, adults.. if they cant find something to make everyone happy, they should have left it how it was.

As for the personal insults, I think you will find I was simply asking you a question. I actually think you were using more personal abuse then I was.

Please for the love of God, go away and think about your side of the arguement.. I think if you put yourself in these mothers positions now, you will find it a little unfair.

Everybody, ie the public, has the right to use buses.
You saying a baby in a pram can use them is like saying the huge dogs that get allowed on are better than them.

Go away and have a think before you argue another point that is effectively .. well.. pointless.
85

Pacob75,

11/09/2008 12:51:43
96 - So now you're suggesting that LB design a bus that primarily accommodates prams/buggies and wheelchair users only? Ridiculous - remember, they are a business. If that was the case then they'd have to put the fares up to pay for this.

98 - "Allowing mothers (or fathers) to park a buggy (not a large pram) in the wheelchair space, if it is not being used, seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to me. "

Eh - they do that already! Do you actually get the bus or are ye just bumping your gums?
86

AB's,

11/09/2008 12:58:13
Well us arguing this point is not going to help.

Stop arguing and start coming up with ideas of how to allow both users use the bus.

My thoughts?
All people trying to get on a bus with a buggie should be made to pay for a DAY TICKET £2.50 and told they must vacate the seat/area if a wheelchair user requires it - basically the law etc can get involved if they dont.. that way if they do have to get off the bus, they have day ticket..
Simply make the rules clear, and the price.. so parents can calculate money and time.
87

Kenster,

Edinburgh 11/09/2008 13:00:13
#100

"Eh - they do that already!"

This is why there is a debate - Lothian Buses are no longer allowing parents with a buggy to use the wheelchair space. They will only allow people on with a folded pushchair.

88

sick of edinburgh,

11/09/2008 13:04:18
I absolutely do have experience of travelling with three young children on buses trains planes and automobiles and I used a collapsing pram on buses and trains. I stored the pram in the hold of planes and in boots of cars when I used them. Parents have managed to travel with children shopping luggage and baby bags for years and years and years. Why can't people now? Buy a pram that suits your needs or if you don't like whats available moan to the pram designers. The space is for wheel chair users.
89

Pacob75,

11/09/2008 13:04:49
101 - well that's one idea. But unfortunately some folks (and probably rightly so) will consider it discriminatory. Cue another EEN campaign "Fury at Pram Tax" or something along these lines.

Whilst I have some sympathy with those who feel hard done by, I think that LB's policy is the fairest way. Remember, the only issue here is the rigid frame type of prams, not all prams AND buggies as some here would try and have you believe.

90

Pacob75,

11/09/2008 13:08:50
102 - You're wrong. Someone with a buggy CAN and DO use the space. Its just that it must be able to fold IN CASE the space should be required by a wheelchair. Next time you're out & about have a look, you'll see that this is the case. Hope that clears things up for you.
91

pofi,

11/09/2008 13:37:23
#90 Kenster (kens nothing) If you behave like a 5 year old then you will be treated as a 5 year old. Continuously harping on about the same subject won't make Lothian Buses lift the Pram Ban or make the majority of bus passengers accept your case. It just pisses everyone off. It's boring, we're all fed up with it, buy a buggy, get a life.
92

AB's,

11/09/2008 13:52:06
104.
Well if thats the case, surely its discrimation not to allow some of the buggies on and to chuck them off for not being able to fold.

IMO if you are trying to put anything with wheels on a bus, you pay the £2.50 ticket price and think yourself lucky that you are not on a first bus b'cos they charge about that just to get from A to B.

Wheelchair users get buspasses anyways.

Prehaps that is a way?? Non-driving parents get a discount bus pass for the amount of time they will have to hop on and off buses??
93