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Bus firm to axe routes as bosses' wages soar



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Published Date: 31 July 2008
LOTHIAN Buses are to axe or cut back 16 routes in a bid to help the council-owned firm break even – at the same time as its directors bank inflation-busting pay rises.
A leaked report obtained by the Evening News shows the services are facing the chop by October, many of which serve large swathes of the city's elderly and socially deprived.

Among the services to be axed are the number 13 Blackhall to Lochend and number 20 Wester Hailes to Chesser. The number 18 Gyle to the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary and number 32 Granton to Clovenstone services are among those which will see their frequencies cut.

It comes as the bus company's latest accounts reveal its directors have collected an aggregated 13 per cent pay rise based on record profits of £5.9 million last year. Top earner is chief executive Neil Renilson who has seen his pay rise by ten per cent to £250,000.

Lothian Buses today said the 16 loss-making services cost it more £3m a year and said trimming them was the only way it could break even.

The council-backed company has blamed disruption to services by trams roadworks for a five per cent drop in passenger numbers but is also battling fuel costs. However, it has pledged it will not increase fares again this year.

Council chiefs today said they had no money to step in and subsidise the under-threat services but would look to help the affected communities in other ways.

Ian Craig, managing director of Lothian Buses, said: "The services being cancelled are the biggest loss-makers we run.

"We deeply regret that we are unable to continue cross-subsidising these loss-making but socially necessary bus services."

An emergency meeting of the council's transport committee will meet on Tuesday to discuss the situation. Among the options open to councillors will be putting the axed services out to tender, or to explore sponsorship.

Councillor Phil Wheeler, the city's transport leader, said: "As an arms-length company Lothian Buses operates completely autonomously from the council and the decision to cut or reduce services has been taken by the company on a commercial basis.

"The council has no available provision in its existing budget to provide subsidy."

Accounts released today show that while Mr Renilson's pay rose to £250,000, the overall salary and benefits package for the firm's directors rose from £792,000 in 2006 to £895,000 last year.

The inflation-busting deals are in contrast to the 5.1 per cent rise which bus drivers have secured for the next year. Mr Renilson said: "It's not for me to say whether I'm worth it. It's for other people to judge whether Lothian Buses is delivering value for money, but over the last ten years we've increased passenger numbers by 40 per cent.

"I can't be accused of presiding over a failure ... the remuneration package is in line with what the private sector pays." Lothian Buses' profits rose 20 per cent to £5.9m in 2007, while passenger numbers jumped by 5.6 per cent in the year to 114 million.

• Lothian Buses wants to axe services 13, 20, 60, and Night Buses N11 and N27 by October 5.

• Major cutbacks are planned for the 12, 18, 24, 32, 42, N8, N16, N26, N30, N31 and N44 services.


The full article contains 571 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

31/07/2008 11:48:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Daft Old Git,

31/07/2008 11:54:45
'many of which serve large swathes of the city's elderly and socially deprived.'....Who'd want to get on a bus with that lot?
3

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 11:54:49
Let us be clear about this. These service cuts cannot be blamed on Lothian Buses. They are because of the tram scheme and, if TIE's risk and revenue appendix is anything to go by, they are very likely to be the tip of the iceberg.

Yesterday's letter from Willie Gallagher talked about the trams enhancing public transport in Edinburgh. Now I understand: Lothian Buses are going to cut/reduce so many services that, by the time the tram starts, it would be seen as an enhancement to the public transport system!

The tram scheme is the council's baby and it must take responsibility for these cuts.
4

Grumpy,

31/07/2008 11:56:57
They would have been better scrapping the Transit Mini-Buses to the Airport - most go with only one person in it anyway. And the No 18 service is attrocious - how you can cut this back further beggars belief.

Suggestion: Cut back the No 22, 26 and 44 services instead
5

Brian Ferrari,

31/07/2008 11:56:59
Isn't it the case that LRT bus drivers get a pay and pensions package which is better than that offered by the private sector?

And a 5.1% pay rise for next year. Not bad.
6

allknowing,

31/07/2008 12:01:46
"and socially deprived. "

Whats that then, poor people scrounging on the dole who cant be bothered to work and would rather throw stones at busses?
7

Liz,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 12:07:08
#5
Yes, how many would notice a couple less of any of the above services per hour? (obviously not at peak times) Divert them to other routes.

The point of having a bus network is to cover a wide area of the city (to do the usual reduce congestion emmisions type arguements). The less profitable route should be subsidised by the more profiable ones.

Just think, for the £700 million our new tram line is costing, Edinburgh and Mid Lothian could have had the world's best bus network. What are we getting instead? - cuts to routes (this is presumably just the start) and a stupid expensive white elephant of a tramline that is going to be of use to only a fraction of the population.
8

ka,

31/07/2008 12:07:27
"would rather throw stones at busses"

That is because they fear the giant rumbling maroonand white dragons that stalk their estates. They have to throw the stones to make those dragons go away. It's just local people ensuring the safety of their own communities.
9

Tallulah,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 12:14:59
Apparently the No 11 is one of the services to be cut, according to a text from EN today, but not mentioned in the article anywhere...
10

allknowing,

31/07/2008 12:15:37
#10 an interesting view point!!!


Busses have always been for the poor, the only difference now is pretend well-off people say they use the bus to be 'green' and 'ease congestion'. Its all quite funny, esp when you drive past them in the pouring rain waiting for another late bus!!
11

The Hallucinist,

31/07/2008 12:17:03
#2 AndrewS - are you not posting any racist comments here, as you appear to enjoy post them on the sports threads
12

Peekay,

31/07/2008 12:19:41
Revenues could be increased if they stopped automaticaly issuing free passes to people over 60. I have a colleague on £60K p.a. who gets free travel to work.
13

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 12:20:20
Mario (7) - Lothian Buses have had considerable success in increasing public transport use largely because of its ability to support less financially viable routes out of profits from others.

I do not understand the logic that cutting/altering 16 bus routes which "serve large swathes of the city's elderly and socially deprived" can be a good thing, in terms of public transport provision or encouraging people to leave the car at home.
14

johnny boy,

edinburgh 31/07/2008 12:22:50
It is absolutely scandalous that the bloated public sector receive these inflation busting pay awards and continue to receive these pension benefits which are massively subsidised by the tax payer. Many people are not fortunate to be in any pension scheme. That thief Brown has destroyed the private sector pensions.
15

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 31/07/2008 12:24:21
Get rid of the service 22 completely and thise awful single deck buses .
And get rid of the Metro rag .
16

geekpie,

forfar 31/07/2008 12:28:50
Bad news.

We need to subsidise bus services like these.

By offering comprehensive public transport, it becomes more justifiable to increase taxes on those who refuse to use it and insist on sticking to their cars.
17

Trams shams,

31/07/2008 12:30:56
Mario... Any one with two brain cells can see right through this sham ...pity you can not!
18

YummyMummy,

31/07/2008 12:33:32
#5

I agree. 22s should only run as frequently as they do during peak times. Once the trams are up and running im sure we wont need as many.
And 18's only run every half and hour during the week and hourly on a Sunday.. are they planning on makin it hourly durin the week too?
19

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 31/07/2008 12:36:36
Maybe Lothian Buses should remember that a local authority owned bus company is there to provide a bus service, not massive profits.
20

jts,

edinbburgh 31/07/2008 12:36:37
What about the residents that live in the sheltered housing complexes around the Number20 route- they can use the bus to get to the shops as the stops are near at hand but getting to the Wester Hailes road stops and using the underpasses which are quite dangerous. Is just a step too far.
How are they supposed to do their shopping and get to the Doctors etc without this service?
Will the Health services be happy to do more home visits - for those who can not get to the surgries? Will the Supermarkets be putting a service on to get people into their shops?
I think we all know the answer to these questions and its a residing NO
Even the Mums with buggies and small children are going to be effected by this foolishness
21

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 12:42:04
#5 Are you mad? The 22, 26 and 44 services are actually making the company money. Your suggestion is the economics of the mad house.
When you see the routes that SPT subsidises, many of them run with fewer passengers than some of the loss making Lothian routes; the council cannot get away without sharing responsibility for this problem, along with the people who lied when they said they would use them.
22

YummyMummy,

31/07/2008 12:42:23
#28

Thats a good point but LB have already prooved their not in favour of parents with young children.
23

Peekay,

31/07/2008 12:47:31
#29 But surely they could make even more money if they did not run in convoys? Look at the front page of the LRT web site - two 22's running within yards of each other.
24

Bigwull,

edinburgh 31/07/2008 12:56:39
19 2% wage rise this year
and an increase of pension contributions for less benefits
and no freebies!
hardly inflation busting is it?
25

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 12:59:06
#31 That is a problem that bus companies face worldwide; only one city so far has found a solution (to employ people to maintain spacing between services) and with UK wages it wouldn't be cheap. Other than technology I don't see any other solution
26

Shooting from the lip,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:00:21
Get with the program people, there is no such thing as LRT ... its Lothian Buses.

Passenger numbers are up , yes of they are because the same people who used to get one bus to work now have to get two. It wouldn't surprise me if their figures took into consideration all the unemployed drunks and junkies who can now buy an all day ticket and choose to jump on and off buses all day.

Yes the best way to save money would be to reduce the ridiculous amount of 22's and maybe put more double deckers on that route to cope with peak time passengers.
27

antifa,

31/07/2008 13:04:02
allknowing - since you only seem to post on here to spout bile about the "dole scroungers" and "pretend well-off" (?), at least learn that the plural of bus is "buses", you illiterate twerp.
28

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:05:41
Mario (22) - I am sure that the rising cost of fuel has had an effect but, to the extent of cutting/altering 16 bus services on top of the recent fare increase? I find that very hard to believe.
29

Bob 2,

31/07/2008 13:08:46
The Lothian Buses name was formed in January 2000 and replaced the former LRT Lothian fleet name.

PLEASE NOTE 2000


27 Road Raga,EDINBURGH 31/07/2008 12:36:36
Maybe Lothian Buses should remember that a local authority owned bus company is there to provide a bus service, not massive profits

Road Raga..LB do not make massive profits...£5.9m compared to the BILLIONS that the Oil Companies have declared over the last few days.

LB have also invested the fare paying passengers money in New Buses.

Maybe the Directors will be taking a cut next year if they fail to make a profit!!

And things will only get worse.

Correct me , but the Profits from the Lothian Buses are to be used to prop up the TRAMS when they start!
30

Vics35,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:10:28
Strange how this story online does not cover the list of services affected yet in the paper copy it does...

Withdrawn: 13, 20, 60, N11, N27
Withdrawn Mon-Fri mornings: N8, N16, N26, N30, N44
Major changes: 12 - Leith Links to Kings Road section withdrawn, 18 - Will run Mon-Fri peak only, 24 - City Centre to ERI evening service becomes hourly, 32 - Will run Mon-Fri peak only, replaced between Wester Hailes & Drumbrae by alteration to 21, 42 - Bristo Place to Kings Road section withdrawn evenings & Sundays, N8 - Mon-Fri morning journeys withdrawn, Sat/Sun mornings run between Silverknowes & City Centre, N31 - Mayfield sections withdrawn.

Use public transport? Use public transport after a night out? Oh wait soon we won't be able to!
31

Charles Linskaill,

On the go on the mobile 31/07/2008 13:12:10
Oh well, its a few less pram's not to worry about, wanting on the buses.
32

Bob 2,

31/07/2008 13:12:29
Of course the Trams have got nothing to do with this

the Trams have not put people off shopping/travelling in Edinburgh.

The tramworks have not caused any delays to bus services.

Right and Pigs will fly
33

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:12:46
Sarah B is - as always - spot-on in her analysis. Only thing I'd challenge is 'Council . . taking responsibility'? - Don't be ridiculous, Sarah!
These cut backs are the start of a self-fulfilling prophecy to deliver TIE's 'business case'. The Lothian Buses directors will be well rewarded for their treachery. And Councillor Phil Wheeler is - as usual - talking out of his primary exhaust pipe.
34

Bob 2,

31/07/2008 13:14:08
comment 38 Vics35

maybe the Fact that the Evening News needs people to buy papers to keep their business running!!!

not a new concept, its been around for years
35

Moron Slapper,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:14:23
7 Not true. I use the 13 regularly and at peak times in the morning it's often standing room only. Many people would be greatly inconvenienced if the service were to stop. It's also a key service to give locals and tourists access to the Gallery of Modern Art, Dean Gallery and the shopping complex at Blackhall.
36

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:17:15
All going to the expected plan then. Bus services slashed as the trams go over budget.

I have to laugh at the pro-tram idiots that are reacting like this is totally unexpected. It's what the educated people have been saying all along.

Can someone shut that Mario spammer up please?
37

NorT,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:22:13
Its about time that Firts Bus competed on some of these routes and then lets see what Lothian Buses do.
38

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:25:15
That's another two spams Mario. Very good. Your Council masters will be impressed.
39

Vics35,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:25:35
First Bus can't compete on their own routes never mind routes covered by Lothian! Many a time within their 'own catchment area' they will sail past a bus stop if there are Lothian Buses there - how can they expect to pick up passengers if they won't even stop?
40

Bob 2,

31/07/2008 13:29:55
no46........

and make things even worse....FIRST would cherry pick the profitable routes, which would end up costing even more less profitable routes.

And do you want even more 22's or 26's running, we've been there, remember when FIRST introduced the £1 day ticket, how long did it last, how many duplicates of the duplicates buses did we have running.

FIRST have even bigger salaries to pay to the bosses at the top.
41

Bob 2,

31/07/2008 13:31:24
come on folks, comment on the article and stop the personal slanging match.
42

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:31:39
Thomas (41) - I live in hope but, this time, the councillors received so many warnings of the possible implications that it would be very easy to ensure they do not escape public accountability.

As far as the Business Case is concerned, that is not the crucial document - it is the associated risk and revenue report which sets out the more pragmatic view. It says, amongst many other things, that the business case was produced during a time of strong economic performance and the case put forward was based on that continuing. The business case also assumed that huge numbers of properties would have been built at the Waterfront by the time the tram started and that any delay in that building programme equates to a sliding scale of losses to Lothian Buses. I guess, when the councillors approved the business case last December, they did not think that the economy would take such a serious downturn but what is particularly alarming is that they have never uttered one syllable about how they would tackle that scenario to ensure that Lothian Buses' services would not be put at risk.
43

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:32:43
And another Mario. Keep it up. By the time you are done, there is so much of your spam in the comments that they become difficult to read. Presumably that's the intention?
44

Bob 2,

31/07/2008 13:32:45
maybe they should be looking at some of the park and ride buses, has anyone seen a busy one?
45

Big bob 79,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 13:33:17
Have to laugh at Mr Renilson comments. Lothian buses has increased passenger numbers by 40% over the last 10 years. Lothian Buses has only been around for 8 years!.... and its not passneger numbers that have increased by 40% its journey numbers that have increased, the reason behind this increase is you can No-longer get one bus from A to B. Due to the route re-shuffles you have always got to change buses in town and at £1.10 a pop this is an awful deal. However this does allow Lothian to haul in big profits and Mr Renilson to claim massive increases in people using the buses.
Its all a sham and when will the people of Edinburgh wake up to the fact that Lothian Buses and our council have crushed competition in Edinburgh and are ripping us off everyday of the week.
46

Koala Cubes,

31/07/2008 13:37:55
What hope have we got when the numpties in charge of LB run the 13 every 40 minutes at peak time and then every 30 minutes at non-peak times?
47

Bob 2,

31/07/2008 13:41:18
yawn
48

KTCB41,

31/07/2008 13:46:24
If the problem is that the money you get back from the government everytime someone flashed their "free" bus pass is less than it costs you to transport them, then it makes sence to cut the services most used by such people.

The alternative, and this seems unlikley, if for the government to properly fund the "free" bus pass scheme.
49

calum,

31/07/2008 13:52:14
#53/56 - Also interesting is that Renilson now admits, for the first time to my knowledge, that the TramLINE will replace one bus route. There you have it.
50

calum,

31/07/2008 13:55:29
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburghtransportplans/On-track-all-his-life.4343023.jp

51

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 14:02:20
61 calum

"THE IMPACT OF THE TRAM
"It will take 19 buses off the road, which will mean the loss of 40 drivers, but there will be no redundancies as those job losses will be absorbed through normal staff turnover. The tram will only replace one bus route, there will still be 48 other bus routes in Edinburgh, serving 75 per cent of the city and those services won't change.""

The tram will only replace one bus route.
The tram will only replace one bus route.
The tram will only replace one bus route.
The tram will only replace one bus route.
The tram will only replace one bus route.

I can think of better ways of spending £650m.
52

Angus R,

31/07/2008 14:06:12
Other cities such as Manchester have a Tram Line - why can't Ediburgh get one of these?
53

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 14:08:42
63 Angus R

Manchester had the Manchester-Bury railway. The tram replaced the train using the same tracks. It's not quite the same thing happening in Edinburgh
54

Big bob 79,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 14:12:44
If 80% of people using the new tram route are going to be people who would have used the bus does this mean they only expect to carry 80% of the people who use the No19?... Its a lot of money to be spending for such a small group of people.
I doubt that only one bus route will be axed when the tram comes, I cannot see that many people switching to a tram which is less frequent and stops in less places when the city is crawling with buses that have to que up to load up passengers.

55

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 14:17:48
66 The Genuine Mario Antoinette

I'd be looking for any politician that has financially gained through this farce and putting them on trial. This project is not for the benefit of the people of Scotland. It is not for the benefit of the people of Edinburgh.

Yet, it is being built and benefitting someone. It's about time the Police started investigating who exactly it is benefitting and whether charges can be brought.
56

Hoof Hearted,

31/07/2008 14:21:35
LOTHIAN BUSES WIN ANOTHER TOP OPERATOR AWARD
Date: Wednesday 16th Jul 2008
We have once again topped the polls to receive the National Transport Award for best Public Transport Operator of the Year. The award was presented at a ceremony in London last night.

The National Transport Awards, now in their 8th year, recognise excellence across the transport industry in the UK and Ireland and cover all aspects of public transport including awards for local authorities and bus, tram and rail operators. Once again we have demonstrated our commitment to consistently deliver excellent customer service, maintain high operational and engineering standards, invest in buses and staff together with effective partnerships. These have helped to increase the number of passengers by 40% over the past 9 years.

We had some stiff competition when we were short listed alongside 4 other major UK transport operators including– Stagecoach, Go North East and First Group.

Pilmar Smith, chairman of Lothian Buses who was in London to receive the award said:

“This is another great achievement for Lothian Buses and I felt particularly honoured to collect it on behalf of everyone in the Company who have and continue to work hard delivering the best transport operation in the whole of the Country.”

The news was also welcomed by George Foulkes MSP for the Lothians who added:

“Lothian Buses thoroughly deserve to win another high accolade for providing an excellent bus service for everyone in Edinburgh and the near Lothians. The buses are always well presented and the drivers are helpful and friendly. I would suggest other UK bus companies take a close look at what Lothian Buses do – they seem to be getting it right.”


57

SS,

31/07/2008 14:41:30
Good! Fewer buses on the roads will be a better thing. Can't move in Edinburgh for busses everywhere. More room for bikes, takis and cars now.
58

SS,

31/07/2008 14:43:04
sorry - taxis!
59

YummyMummy,

31/07/2008 14:47:17
Cant move in Edinburgh for buses?
Are you having a laugh?
Cars cause most of the congession on the roads.
60

alex patersons English teacher,

31/07/2008 14:48:57
73
i think you need to kerb your aggrestion.
61

YummyMummy,

31/07/2008 14:49:53
#74

I think you need to stop making pointless comments.. just like this one i've made
62

alex patersons English teacher,

31/07/2008 14:58:41
75
you started it.
63

Concerned Citizen,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 14:59:02
Under the current financial conditions faced by the people of this country due the world financial turmoil and the highly inflated fuel prices. WE THE PEOPLE should now call on the immediate suspension of the work on the TRAM project. Allowing for the work to be done on the diversion of utilities to continue and to finish. Suspend the rest of the project. Use the money from that project to ensure that people of Edinburgh have the services to which the current administration is denying them. The money could be used to help those within the city who may suffer as a result of the current crisis. After all thats what the taxes are really for and not some fanciful projects dreamed up by councillors. It is time for councillors to come back down to earth and serve - WE THE PEOPLE.

£650,000,000 can do a great deal of GOOD for a lot of PEOPLE.

Councillors and MSP and MP - Back to basics.
64

I love to eat Sellotape,

31/07/2008 15:11:00
Instead of "axing" bus routes, it would be cooler to set them on fire, take pictures and upload them to Bebo.
65

SS,

31/07/2008 15:12:49
Buses create lot of congestion - ever tried to get down Morningside road in the morning (any time infact)?. Two buses pull over, no room to go past them, lots of cars back up. Cars are causing congestion but only 'cause they can't get past buses. And, where are there bus stops every 5 feet? Can people not walk a little bit further? greater distance between stops might stop buses having to pull in so often.
66

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 15:15:09
Sarah @53 - thanks for that clarification; you're clearly accessing the same sources as I am! I certainly look forward to 'holding my councillor accountable' (by the throat?) when he comes grubbing for votes. Your line 'when the councillors approved the business case last December, they did not think . . . ' Just about sums it up; these Idiot Councillors don't think, they just wrote a blank cheque for the Emperor's New Clothes, an analogy lost on that Vainglorious Buffoon, Anderson and his Dopey sidekick, Burns.
67

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 15:34:34
#80 - typical comment from a selfish, arrogant, obnoxious car driver. On Sunday mornings I take the bus and it is always on time - the reason - hardly any cars on the road. During school holidays the buses run to time - reason - less cars on the road. So who causes the congestion? Cars obviously.

Now - here is a comment from a truly obnoxious car driver - "And, where are there bus stops every 5 feet? Can people not walk a little bit further?"

What about the disabled, elderly, and those with walking difficulties? What about those in wheelchairs? What about those young mums and their buggies? Car drivers like you make me boil - you only think of yourself.
68

,

31/07/2008 15:38:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
69

,

31/07/2008 15:39:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
70

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 15:39:50
83 Scallywag

Five people died at the weekend on the dangerous A9. Those lives could have been saved if the road was dual carriageway.

That was what the tram cash was to be used for. The pro-tram brigade have blood on their hands.
71

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 15:41:16
#83 - I am not so parochial that I would rather waste £700m in Edinburgh than have it spent elsewhere in Scotland on projects that make sense.

And the trams will NEVER be a success by any economic measure. The business plan itself shows that it has a worse net economic case than doing nothing, which will only get worse, as Sarah B says, given its dependence on the waterfront development which must be viewed as in serious doubt.
72

James (1),

31/07/2008 16:09:58
As a motorist it gives me great pleasure to say:- I don't use any of these buses so get rid of them!
Put up the prices to make this company make money. Make mothers pay for a permit to allow them to get their buggy or pram on the bus. (Kind of like a parking permit. No guarantee of a place but the council charge you anyway).
More room on the road for me.

As you will see I have used the same logic as bus users/car haters apply to motorists. Get rid of them and all will be well with the world. Ignore the upset that it causes because it does not bother me. Remember, for each bus off the road how clean we are making our environment. Who could complain about that? Certainly not the tree huggers, this is no doubt a brillant piece of news for them.
What goes around, as they say!
73

Leila,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:11:59
#83: "The concerned citizen doesn't seem to realise that the bulk of the tram cash would be used elsewhere across Scotland with a good chance that Edinburgh would see hee haw".

So what? It's public money, it should be used for public benefit. If there are greater transport priorities elsewhere in Scotland, the money should be used for that.
74

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:12:22
83 The concerned citizen doesn't seem to realise that the bulk of the tram cash would be used elsewhere across Scotland with a good chance that Edinburgh would see hee haw.

do you mean like the A9 ? print the names of the
council fathers who voted for this folly!
75

Statsman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:12:46
85 Gorgie_Tony

"What about the disabled, elderly, and those with walking difficulties?"

What about their Taxicards?
76

YummyMummy,

31/07/2008 16:16:34
#91

"So what? It's public money, it should be used for public benefit. If there are greater transport priorities elsewhere in Scotland, the money should be used for that."

Exactly! PUBLIC BENEFIT. How are trams going to benefit the public of Edinburgh?
77

YummyMummy,

31/07/2008 16:17:28
Oops, just relised that doesnt make sense at all!
78

Wingman,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:20:02
The money being given to Rennilson and his henchmen is just disgusting ! A bus service subsidised by the council, it has no competition, and by halving bus routes the footfall increases !! We the normal punters are getting sick fed up of these fat cats bleeding is dry.. but seem impotent to sort it..
79

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:24:38
If, when the trams come online, and the Waterfront/Granton, etc, are still not built; and TEL is facing possible annual losses of up to £52m (out of a circa £89.5m turnover) and decide to increase ticket prices on buses and trams and cut bus services/frequencies to the bone; if then access to public transport through the entire city has been made so difficult that people have reverted to the car and congestion/air pollution has increased, I wonder if the pro-tram people will wonder if perhaps they would have done better to look at TIE's own Revenue and Risk Report which shows all this coming and lobby for bus services to be protected?
80

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:27:52
Wingman (96) - In 2007, Lothian Buses had a turnover of £89.5m; its profits were down to £7.3m from £16.3m the previous year; it returned its usual £2m dividend to the Council and invested in 85 new buses; it increased bus passenger numbers for the ninth year in a row.

And, as far as I am aware, any bus company can set up any route they like and there would be nothing the Council or Lothian Buses could do about it.
81

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:28:27
Tony@85 - you don't appear to realise that when (if) your beloved trams ever take to the rails, (and not in Gorgie, either) the stops will be about half a mile apart - that's why they can offer 'faster journey times'. Where's your disabled, elderly, and those with walking difficulties;those in wheelchairs and those young mums and their buggies now? I'm not 'anti tram', I just don't wear the same tinted glasses as the Tramoraks.
82

Ian Ross,

31/07/2008 16:35:43
If, when the trams come on line and are a great success, how dissapointed will the anti trammers be that they spent four or five years of their lives getting up to high-do about the blinking thing.

There's more chance of Hibs winning the Scottish Cup than there is of the trams being a success!
83

Liz,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:35:53
#99
Yes and another reason they are going to have a "faster journey time" is that the stupid system we have now for queuing up and waiting whilst passengers get off the bus, then filing on one by one past time driver will not be happening. This is one of the main reasons that buses appear to run in convoy as they get held up waiting so long for people getting on and off.

Any proper sensible bus system (ie across most of Europe) do not have this - they trust people to have a vaild travel card/ticket on them and they are enforced by inspectors - result - far superiour bus services and timings.
84

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:36:14
Thomas (99) - Actually, according to that pesky old Revenue and Risk Report, the tram is not anticipated to be faster on journey times to/from the airport/Haymarket. I don't know about from Haymarket to Leith but, given that it has recently been decided by TIE to allow it to share roadspace with buses after all, I don't see that it will be that much faster onstreet either.
85

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:37:58
Mario (101) - do you want a proper answer to that question or is it intended to be rhetorical?
86

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 31/07/2008 16:41:15
The anti trammies just never give up.
Face it - there is a tram coming your way - get used to it !

And using their logic, no money would get spent in Edinburgh (or elsewhere for that matter) as 'the whole of Scotland wouldn't benefit' from it. Mad I tell ya !
87

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 31/07/2008 16:44:45
#101 the simple answer to your question is - the City of London.
This greedy city grabs all the investment in the UK, public sector jobs etc. For example, the only high speed rail line in the UK goes from London to the Channel tunnel. The only city in the UK with a half decent public transport system is London (the underground). I could go on.....
88

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 16:50:00
#93 - I am elderly - I am not entitled to a Taxicard - noticed you failed to mention the mothers with buggies - you are obviously another selfish car driver. Roll on a decent council that will FORCE in congestion charging - at a realistic price. £50 a shot to enter Edinburgh sounds reasonable to me - it will certainly put off the average car driver. The less cars in the city - the easier I breathe.
89

,

31/07/2008 17:18:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
90

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 17:22:10
Mario (107) - I can do better than that. I can point you to a report by Faber Maunsell/Semaly, called "Comparative Performance Data from French Tramways Systems".

This report highlights the main differences between the UK and French tram schemes, including the different ways they are funded.

What it boils down to is that, in France, the state government contributes only to construction costs (up to 35%) (exc design and project admin costs, utilities diversions, highway improvement, etc). Utilities diversions are funded by the project and the utilities companies themselves but, most importantly, France chooses to levy a payroll tax (versement transport) on companies which generates massive sums specifically for public transport.

The report says that Lyon (pop 1.2m) applied this tax at 1.63% in 1999, which generated over £105m for investment and operations of public transport in that year alone". It also says, "without the versement tranport, the funding of new modern tramways would not have been possible. The amount of local generated funding can be staggering, as it is applied to the payrolls of all companies within the area of the local Transport Authority, public or private, above 9 employees".

This is the primary source of funding both construction and operation of trams and other projects in France and the UK simply does not have anything similar. If we want to see public transport as good as our European counterparts, then we need to introduce this kind of measure but as we have seen in Edinburgh, even getting developers to cough up their paltry contributions to this scheme has proved nigh on impossible.
91

The Sheriff,

31/07/2008 17:22:35
Oh look, gorgie tony whinging again....bring back labour eh tony yah raj.
92

Liz,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 17:23:54
#108

A scheme that would benefit the whole of Edinburgh (rather than just a tiny corridor) would be a start.
93

Indy Rep Kid,

31/07/2008 17:25:58
#111

nice try but your postings on two threads were the stuff of low-life

jog on, you vermin
94

E300,

31/07/2008 17:50:05
85 Gorgie_Tony
"What about the disabled, elderly, and those with walking difficulties? What about those in wheelchairs? What about those young mums and their buggies?"

If they hadn't been taxed out of their cars by this Liebour government there would be no problem.
95

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 18:09:08
#116 - what makes you think those using the bus want a car? Perhaps they are the more caring people of society - those that think about others - those that think about the environment. They know a full bus is better then one hundred cars with single occupancy is better for the environment. Selfish, obnoxious car drivers like you make me wheeze - my lungs are finding it difficult with your exhaust fumes - feel big now?
96

Charles MN,

31/07/2008 18:26:32
#188
If you knew what you were talking about you would realise that buses are the biggest producers of pollution in Edinburgh.

According to the council report below 55% of the air pollution at Haymarket came from buses.

http://www.edinburghlectures.org/internet/Attachments/Internet/Environment/Environmental_health/Pollution/Air_pollution/Air_quality/Air%20Quality%20Action%20Plan%20030730.pdf
97

Hoof Hearted,

31/07/2008 18:34:21
#119. Well considering most traffic at Haymarket is buses it's hardly surprising!

Ars*holes like you, manipulating figures to suit your own narrow minded views, are truly dangerous individuals. Shame on you!
98

Charles MN,

31/07/2008 18:46:12
#120
If you had bothered to read the report before showing your ignorance you would know that isn't true.

There are 6 times as many cars as buses at Haymarket yet they produce 1/4 the Nox and 1/8 of the particulates.
99

Euan,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 18:46:53
#116 Gorgie Tony

Buses and taxis produce FAR more lung-threatening fumes than cars do in Edinburgh.

Once again, you're silly anti-car rantings fail miserably...




100

Euan,

Edinburgh 31/07/2008 18:48:21
That was for #118 not #116!
101

ailes,

gilmerton Edinburgh 31/07/2008 19:03:16
As a frequent user of the No 18 i am appalled that they are cutting the service yet again. I work at the Gyle and every morning and also evening it is packed with not only workers from the Gyle but other businesses on route and also the College. They should think abaout cutting back the 22 as every 3 minutes is attricious and most of the time it is empty. A major rethink is needed.
102

Hoof Hearted,

31/07/2008 19:06:59
#121. Those figures are meaningless. Level playing field please. What are the figures on a per person (i.e. passenger) basis? Don't peddle your lies here!!
103

Charles MN,

31/07/2008 19:27:39
#125 Now you are just clutching at straws but lets do the sums.

The council report said 10% of the traffic is buses and it produces 55% of the PM pollution and 63% of traffic is cars and they produce 7% of the PM. Simple sums shows that each bus produces 49.5 times the PM of a car. If we suppose that on average each car was carrying 1.3 people then, on average, each bus would need to carry 64 people to produce the same , per head , PM output.

If buses were carrying 64 people each then LB wouldn't be shutting services.
104

Hoof Hearted,

31/07/2008 19:46:59
#128. Why would I want to read a report into a subject of which I have absolutely no interest? It's obviously been written by the green hippie pro-car and tram brigade to discredit buses. Think about the logistics - how would you actually measure the pollution - stick a probe up every exhaust?? The figures will be based on a classified traffic count, and the emmisions data of an average car and bus. Lothian Buses fleet has an average age of around 5 years and therefore most of the buses have Euro 2/3/4 engines and particulate filters in the exhausts. They produce, in