Israel vows to continue Gaza attacks despite civilian deaths

1

Cool,

10/11/2006 14:07:55

Well ,as so they should,no Rockets,No return fire, its not Rocket Science is it..no pun intended

2

Mike,

Edinburgh 10/11/2006 14:49:18

And why not they cant have the world thinking their a bunch of pansies and besides all this ammo is expensive they need to get their moneys worth.

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3

Dragomir,

10/11/2006 17:57:48

Those Quassams do less damage then New Year fireworks. The IDF reply is so disproportionate that I wouldn't be surprised if they would use satellite guided missiles on stone throwing Palestinian children.

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4

Listen Ear,

10/11/2006 19:27:35

If the Palestinians don't Fire quassams, the ISraelis would Import thousands more Jewish settlers to steal their land.

The Israelis are not retaliating to rockets being fired, they are attacking so they can steal land and kill innocent people.

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5

Listen Ear,

10/11/2006 19:28:49

No Israelis Steal Land and Kill INNOCENT WOMEN & CHILDREN..

.. No Rockets!

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6

Ricardo,

10/11/2006 20:01:12

Excellent...The Zionist war against Palestinian "Terrorist Children" has has to keep a steady average of Palestinian bodies to tip into the pit.... 116 children killed so far this year http://www.ifamericansknew.org/....

836 Palestinian children have been killed by the zionist since September 2000 so we can see the war against Palestinian children goes along quite well.... but lets make sure we always refer to Palestinians ... as Terrorist.

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7

bill, england,

11/11/2006 00:55:33

Disgusting Israelis, lower than the lowest!

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8

Let's have the truth,

Brisbane, Australia 11/11/2006 08:51:57

# 4 Listen ear

"The Israelis are not retaliating to rockets being fired, they are attacking so they can steal land and kill innocent people".

....You've hit the nail on the head.

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9

Let's have the truth,

11/11/2006 10:29:29

# 3 Dragomir

Yes, they mostly land in the areas where Israel intends to build more "Settlements". It must be very frustrating for them.

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10

Lynne,

USA 11/11/2006 21:50:41

In 2005 Israel withdrew Unilaterally from the Gaza Strip, withdrew from several small communities in the northern part of the West Bank, and promised additional withdrawals as part of a massive disengagement from the West Bank.
9000 Israelis left homes that have been there for 35 years. And the only reason for this uprooting was the Arab hatred of Jews is so intense that the safety of settlers could not be guaranted without the presence of an Israeli military. More than 1 miliion Arabs are settled peacefully in Israel with no need for such protections. The majority of Israelis support this undertaking. They believe a Gaza Strip under complete and unfetterd Palestinian control would be the starting point for peace.
The planned West Bank disengagement would even be larger...and more costly. Scores of Israeli communities would be abandoned and a forcible relocation of 200,000 Israelis. Non the less, the Israeli majority was in favor of it at the polls. More and more concessions would be made to the Palestinian Authority, until most of the West Bank was emptied of the Jews. It seems Israel would achieve peace with the Palestinians by the same formula that had worked for Egypt and Jordan...Land for peace.
Isrealis and Americans asserted that now, with the Palestinian Authority finally in charge of its own destiny, the Arab leadership of the West Bank and Gaza Strip would start building its state and achieving
its long-awaited opportunity for its people's national identiy and self-detrmination.
Never weere they so wrong.
RInstead of engaging in negotiations with Israel, Hamas leaders declared the withdrawal a military victory..the success of terrorism in defeating Israel..and promised more terror attacks from the Gaza Strip and West Bank..to liberate the remainder of "occupied Palestine"..Israel itself.

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11

Lynne,

USA 11/11/2006 22:02:44

More..
In Jan. 2006 Palestinians elected the Hamas Terrorist Group into office. Their charter identifies the destruction of Israel and the establishement of an Islamic State "from the river to the sea" as its goal.
That election WAS an upset for the PLO and Fatah, and for Pres. Abbas. Now the reins of power were in the hands of a terrorist group, who calls for the obliteration of Israel.
Israel voted for peace. The Palestinians voted for terrorism.
Rather than build a nation on the land that had been given them, Hamas, and a dozen other terrorist gangs in the Gaza Strip, began an almost daily barrage of Qassam Rockets, Katyushas, and mortars, into Israel cities and farming communities. Hamas also began smuggling tons of weaponry, ammo, explosives, ground-to-ground, ground-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft sholder-held missiles, and anti-tank weapons.
Just remember...all these attacks took place when there were no more Jews in Gaza.
The Palestinian terrorists wer waging war against Israel itself, despite Israel's unilateral and unconditional withdrawal, and despite the fact that more land was being promised for the future state of Palestine on the West Bank..in the context of peace negotiations.

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12

Lynne,

USA 11/11/2006 22:06:05

More..
The bottom line is clear.."Occupation" is not the issue that provokes the attacks from Hamas..There was no Israeli occupation of Gaza when these attacks were launched. For Hamas, the issue that requires war is the very existence of Israel, and cannot be resolved till Israel is destroyed.

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13

Richard,

West Lothian 11/11/2006 22:51:54

Lynne, three words ,West Bank occupation?

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14

Dragomir,

11/11/2006 23:26:29

Withdrawal?

what about the Wall? the roads? the checkpoints? the economic sanctions? the hijacking of UN support?

what about the water supply hijacked by settlements?

what about the destroyed infrastructure and the efforts to block any reconstruction done to it?

That was no withdrawal, it was a simple pause. A tea break.

Israel itself is in former Palestinian land, Palestinians they have no intention to obliterate it, especially with some other 4-5 millions of Palestinians living in Israel already. The regime is the only thing that must vanish, and the big WALL which acts like Berlin Wall v2.0 ----Bigger and Better.

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15

Lynne,

USA 11/11/2006 23:45:31

Most Israelli settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are legal and violate no international laws or relevant UN Resolutions. Most do not involve the theft of any Palestinian land.
Now, Israel has relinquished all the Settlements in the Gaza Strip and the Northern part of the West Bank..and the Palestinians still have not shown they intend to proceed toward peace.

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16

Richard,

West Lothian 12/11/2006 00:01:56

Lynne ,
Major Israeli Population Centres in the West Bank are Legal

The term “major Israeli population centres” is used by Israel and the US to refer to large settlement blocs illegally built on Palestinian land in the West Bank. The term “neighbourhood” is usually used by Israel to refer to illegal settlement blocs built in East Jerusalem. “Outposts” refer to empty structures such as tents and caravans erected by the settler movement to use as a tool for negotiations or public relations. Palestinians prefer to use the term “colonies” to refer to all settlements illegally built on their territory. The term “settlements” is used by the international community.

On 14 April 2004, US President George W. Bush gave then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon a letter which he read out aloud at a televised press conference in the White House. The letter included the following controversial passage:

“As part of a final peace settlement, Israel must have secure and recognized borders, which should emerge from negotiations between the parties in accordance with UNSC resolutions 242 and 338. In light of new realities on the ground, including already existing major Israeli population centers, it is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949, and all previous efforts to negotiate a two-state solution have reached the same conclusion. It is realistic to expect that any final status agreement will only be achieved on the basis of mutually agreed changes that reflect these realities.”

Within days, this letter was universally condemned by the European Union, the Arab world, and British and American diplomats because it seemed to prejudice final-status issues (Jerusalem, settlements, borders, water, security and refugees).

In response, 52 former British diplomats wrote a letter to Prime Minister Tony Blair calling the a

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17

Richard,

West Lothian 12/11/2006 00:09:38

ge” (“The case against disengagement”, Jerusalem Post, 28 April 2004).

Pomerance queried whether the Israeli public was not buying bogus merchandise, and noted that “settlement blocs, (i.e. “existing major Israeli population centers”) too, were not taken off the table.” She noted that “Bush’s implicit references to them were so hedged as not to qualify even as statements of present intentions.”

On 26 May 2005, Bush seemed to contradict what he wrote to the Israelis over a year earlier when he said the following on settlements and final-status issues at a press conference in the Rose Garden:

“Israel should not undertake any activity that contravenes road map obligations or prejudice final status negotiations with regard to Gaza, the West Bank and Jerusalem. Therefore, Israel must remove unauthorised outposts and stop settlement expansion … Any final status agreement must be reached between the two parties, and changes to the 1949 Armistice lines must be mutually agreed to. A viable two-state solution must ensure contiguity of the West Bank, and a state of scattered territories will not work … This is the position of the United States today, it will be the position of the United States at the time of final status negotiations.”

It becomes immediately apparent that in contrast to his letter of assurances to the Israelis, the language used in this speech (such as “must”) is affirmative, direct and positive. As Dr. Robert Satloff - executive director of the right-wing America think-tank, the Washington Institute for Near East Policy - noted in his article “Deciphering the Bush-Abbas Press Conference” (Peace Watch # 503, 31 May 2005):

“Both the nature and context of the president’s statements to Sharon and [Palestinian President Mahmoud] Abbas were fundamentally different. Last year, in his letter to Sharon, Bush merely offered an observation, an analytical comment that refuted a hypothetical. It ha

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18

Richard,

West Lothian 12/11/2006 00:10:44

“concerning the legality of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories” to Congressmen Donald M. Fraser and Lee H. Hamilton, in which he concluded that:

“While Israel may undertake, in the occupied territories, actions necessary to meet its military needs and to provide for orderly government during the occupation … the establishment of the civilian settlements in those territories is inconsistent with international law.”

On 30 April 2001, Senator George J. Mitchell - former member and majority leader of the US Senate, and chairman of the Report of the Sharm El-Sheikh Fact-Finding Committee - reiterated official US policy as follows (at pp. 15 - 16):

“During the half-century of its existence, Israel has had the strong support of the United States. In international forums, the U.S. has at times cast the only vote on Israel’s behalf. Yet, even in such a close relationship there are some differences. Prominent among those differences is the U.S. Government’s long-standing opposition to the GOI’s polices and practices regarding settlements. As the-then Secretary of State, James A. Baker, III, commented on May 22, 1991:

‘Every time I have gone to Israel in connection with the peace process, on each of my four trips, I have been met with the announcement of new settlement activity. This does violate United States policy. It’s the first thing that Arabs - Arab Governments, the first things that the Palestinians in the territories - whose situation is really quite desperate - the first thing they raise when we talk to them. I don’t think there is any bigger obstacle to peace than the settlement activity that continues not only unabated but at an enhanced pace.’

“The policy described by Secretary Baker, on behalf of the Administration of President George H. W. Bush, has been, in essence, the policy of every administration over the past quarter century.”

In support of this stance, the

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19

Richard,

West Lothian 12/11/2006 00:13:06

tute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East.”

Resolution 465 also deplored the “continuation and persistence of Israel in pursuing those policies and practices and calls upon the Government and people of Israel to rescind those measures, to dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.”

It also called upon “all States not to provide Israel with any assistance to be used specifically in connection with settlements in the occupied territories.”

It is therefore crystal clear that “major existing Israeli population centres” in the West Bank are illegal. Journalists should make this point clear.

What colour are the clouds on your planet??

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20

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 00:16:14

So far it has been Israel making all the concessions.
What do you want Israel to do...Pay them to launch rockets at them?
A large portion of the money that the US has sent is now in Mrs. Arafat's bank accounts...ask her

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21

Richard,

West Lothian 12/11/2006 00:20:37

So Lynne your post@15 is mendacious to put it mildly.

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22

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 00:24:21

Sakhar Habash, a Senior member of the Fatah Central Committee.." To us, the refugee issue is the winning card which means the end of the Israeli state"
1998 lecture.
Which means...war, terrorism, diplomatic isolation of Israel, World wide PR campaigns to demonize Israel,have not worked yet..but this is their trump card.

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23

Richard,

West Lothian 12/11/2006 00:33:19

So far it has been Israel making all the concessions.

Israel is illegaly occupying Palestinian land!.....leave all Palestinian land......address the palestinian refugee problem......then you will get peace......even though the state of Israel itself is illegal (PALESTINIAN CONCESSION).....but the two state solution is probably the best outcome the Palestinians can hope for.

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24

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 00:40:59

Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the UN. It was NOT created out of Palestinian lands.
It was created out of the Ottoman Empire, ruled by the Turks for 400 years..who lost it in WWI when they were defeated. There was no "Palestinian" lands at the time becauase there were no people claiming to be Palestinians.There were Arabs who lived in the region of Palestine, but they considered themselves Syrians. It was only after WWI that the present states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were created....also out of the Turkish Empire by the British and the French...(the Victors)
Jordan was created on about 80% of the Palestine Mandate..originally designated by the League of Nations as part of the Jewish Homeland. Since then Jews cannot own property there. 2/3 of its citizens are Palestine Arabs, but it is ruled by a Hasemite monarchy.

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25

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 00:42:11

I wish you people would check your facts first. It's really easy..it's in all the history books!!!

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26

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 00:52:10

Richard...I beg your pardon...I do not lie.. read about it...from 1947 on ..

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27

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 01:52:11

# 14..Israel came to occuppy the Gaza Strip at the end of the 6-Day War because hostile Egyptian forces were poised to launch attacks from Gaza into Israel.It retained sovereignty over the area because Arab leadership unanimously rejected Israel's offers to return conquered territories in exchange for peace, and because every Arab state had rejected UN Resolutions 242 and 338 calling for peace negotiations and the establishment of recognized borders for ALL states in the region. Israel retained control of the Gaza Strip after ceding all the Sinai all the Sinai Peninsula in its peace treaty with Egypt in 1979 because Anwar Sadat did not want sovereignty over more than 1 Million Palestinians in the Strip.

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28

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 01:56:44

When Arafat rose to power after the Oslo Accords in 1994 the Gaza Strip became a source of relentless terror attacks against Israeli civilians. In 1996, to prevent these terrorist attacks Israel built a fence around the entire Strip, with carefully guarded crossing points. This fence has successfully prevented terror attacks into Israel. With Arafat's death in 2004, and the rise of Hamas to leadership in the Strip, rocket attacks on Israel proliferated, sometimes as many as 80 a day, targeting civilian sites in Israeli communities in and near the Strip.

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29

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 01:57:31

Now there are no communities in the Strip...so why are they still sending rockets into Israel?

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30

Dragomir,

12/11/2006 02:14:07

#22 Lynne, do you really really think they have enough money to run PR campaigns all over the World, keeping in mind the Israel is way ahead on them in this (just look at yourself!) ? I mean it's not only the fact that you need billions and billions of dollars to sustain such a campaign, but you also need access to media outlets who are highly influenced by Israel, especially in the USA.

Keep in mind where PR started - USA, thanks to Edward Bernais (who incidentally was Jewish by origin).

I suppose you're going to say Eskimos are the ones responsible for a PR campaign involving the "Peak Oil theory designed to scare people from driving their cars"... Those ..green terrorists!!!

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31

Let's have the truth,

Brisbane, Australia 12/11/2006 02:18:31

# 29 "Now there are no communities in the Strip...so why are they still sending rockets into Israel?"

............... If you don't know by now, you will never know.

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32

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 02:19:55

Refugee Problem..
In 1947 the UN partition plan mandated the creation of 2 states on the remaining 20% of the Palestine Mandate..the State of Israel for the Jews, and another for the Arabs. The Arabs rejected their state, and launched war against Israel. THIS IS THE PRIMAL CAUSE OF THE ARAB REFUGEE PROBLEM.
The Arab refugees were roughly 725,000 people who fled because of the war that the Arab states..not Palestinian Arabs- started... The Arab states did not want a non-Arab state in the Middle East. The rulers of 8 Arab countries whose populations vastly outnumbered the Jewish settlers in the Turkish Empire, initiated the war with simultaneous invasions of the newly created Israel...on 3 fronts. Arab dictators rejected Israels calls for peace and friendship, and decided to answer with calls for the annilation against the Jews. The war failed..but the state of war has continued uninterrupted because of the failure of the Arab States..Saudi Arabia, Iran in particular, to sign a peace treaty with Israel.
Had there been no aggression, no war, and no invasion by Arab armies whose intent was overtly genocidal, not only would there have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948.

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33

Dragomir,

12/11/2006 02:23:42

#28

It's not a fence, it's a huge WALL. The Quassams are just blind rockets shot over this wall, like kids throwing firecrackers on the sidewalk. They rarely injure anyone, unlike TANK SHELLS and AIR TO SURFACE MISSILES.

The "fence" is almost 10 meters high (about 30ft) and it's made of large solid blocks of CONCRETE. It's very wide, unscalable, it could only be smashed by large machines or tanks. It will soon rival China's Great Wall !

By the way, how would you like to live in a walled up prison with no outside contact? Nevermind, I forgot you lack the ability to empathise.

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34

Dragomir,

12/11/2006 02:24:47

Read it an weap, the UN record of the terrorist STATE named Israel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_c...

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35

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 02:29:34

In the war, Israel acquired additional land. In the absence of a peace treaty between belligerants, the law of nations allows the annexation of aggressor's land after a conflict. Israel actually offered to return land it had acquired while defending itself against Arab aggression in exchange for a formal peace . It made this offer during Rhodes Armistice talks and Lausanne Conference in 1949. The Arab rulers refused the land because they wanted to maintain a state of war in order to destroy Israel.
Had Israel's offer been accepted, there could have been prompt and just resolution to all the problems that have afflicted this region since.
The only problem that would not have been resolved would have been the destruction of Israel.
After their victory Israel passed a law that allowed Arab refugees to resettle in Israel, provided they would sign a form in which they renounced violence, swore allegiance to the state of Israel, and they became peaceful productive citizens.

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36

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 02:31:20

The UN record..is signed by all terroist states..since the UN cannot even define TERRORISM.. I hold very little regard for the UN.

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37

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 03:02:44

#33 I can't wait till the wall is built between us and Mexico...and I only wish is was 30 feet high..
We have watched our taxes go up, while they get free tuitions..medical, that is so expensive...that millions of Americans are uninsured, lower college tuitions, and welfare rolls.
So, I'm all for it..
Because there are terrorists going thru South America to come here to the US..I am all for it. In an ideal world I wouldn't like to live this way...but since 9.11 the world is not ideal.

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38

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 03:54:24

# 33 I lack the ability to empathize!.. You should have my resume.
I've have been a nurse for 3 surgeons, I have donated 8 years as a volunteer in one hospital, I have worked for charitable organizations. When I traveled to Russia, a group of us formed an organization to help get refusniks out of the country.
My children have learned they must give back to their communities..and when we left Russia...they left all the clothes for people who had nothing. I am sure I am not differnt than most...but please...don't tell me I lack the ability to empathize. YOU DO NOT KNOW ME. ..and I do not like writing this..because I don feel I have to proove myself or justify myself to you.

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39

Let's have the truth,

Brisbane, Australia 12/11/2006 05:03:20

Why do those who hold very little regard for the UN grab at every opportunity, where the UN has been involved, to justify their opinions?

Again, if the UN is toothless it's because the US is running it.

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40

Let's have the truth,

Brisbane, Australia 12/11/2006 05:35:08

After all, wasn't it the UN that gave Israel it's land and not God?

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41

Cool,

12/11/2006 10:55:38

33 wall/fence...usually makes good neighbours, if they cant stand each other...folks have been putting up fences/wall since the Year DOT....

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42

Cool,

12/11/2006 10:57:47

Lynne USA...never heard the expression...BULLS... baffles even Brains..lol...

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43

Jacq,

12/11/2006 11:48:40

Lynne

Well done. You're taking on the entire Anti-Israel call centre twilight shift on your own.
Elsewhere in the other articles, I read from some commentators posting something like this:- Israel did not steal the lands. She won it after being attacked by enemies and that happened after the war. Besides, I also came across Dilbert's comment. Just for your information:
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1610632006

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44

Dragomir,

12/11/2006 12:47:15

Lynne #37,
That Mexico fence will also keep people in. Good luck trying to get out of USA once it turns into a mature fascist police state (notice the new travel bills connected to Homeland Security?)...

#38
Empathy = "The imaginative projection into another's feelings, a state of total identification with another's situation, condition, and thoughts. The action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without explicitly articulating these feelings. "

Giving someone clothes is hardly an effort in empathy. You lack it, as you've proved in the narrow-minded comments you make, you're not even trying... just full speed ahead with the same mindset. Tank-like.

Cool, how would you feel if your neighbor built a wall ON your land? Through your backyard, transforming your house into a civil prison...

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45

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 13:17:10

# Well...44..If you think I am not empathetic..that's for you to decide..everything I have written here has been backed up with FACTS.
You never read a history book? You CAN'T CHANGE THE FACTS!!
and speaking of narrowminded...ALL your comments on Israel have been narrowminded..
Saying it does not make it so..

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46

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 13:25:37

#44 on the other side of the fence..on the border with S. America is the military of Mexico..who send people back to their respective countries. They do not allow "foreigners from having rallies against their gov't/ as it is a federal offense..Yet these people come here, hold their Mexican flags and protest this gov't. GIVE ME A BREAK...THEY don't feel our immigration laws are fair!! Pregnant women get on buses, to have their babies here in hopes of not being deported because they gave birth to American citizens!!
I have not seen an American gardner in the development where I live in 15 years!!
So please, If the wall was more than 700 miles I would be happy.And by the way, It's on OUR LAND.

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47

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 13:41:56

#44 If we could add a moat....(I hope you have a sense of humor, because this is meantr tobe funny!!)

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48

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 13:53:21

#43..Thanks, but I had not seen Dilbert's comments till now. VERY INTERESTING read.

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49

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 14:36:17

#43 Actually, its very inciteful, he expresses himself better than me..and he's very real. He made some very good points.

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50

Dragomir,

12/11/2006 15:03:29

Actually you stole it from the native population you call "indians" ...

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51

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 15:48:59

# 50 Nope. It was won in a war with Mexico..

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52

Lynne,

USA 12/11/2006 15:55:55

oh by the way "indians" are Americans...true Americans

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53

maestra,

14/11/2006 00:11:00

in'cite'ful is right - and lynne (aka Lady EmpathETic) - history is not "facts" - it is someone's version of events. WHy not read Howard Zinn's "A History of the People"? It's educational... and I think a little education couldn't hurt

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54

P.K,

14/11/2006 06:28:41

#53

Re: history is not "facts"
What a Hypocrite you are?? Why didn't you tell off your friends about this too?? Even a lot of your friends (Anti-Israel call centre) are using historical events (from History) as reference whenever they tried to dig up some facts from there to justify condemnation of Israeli actions and to support their claims against Israel. Yet, you are totally silence about it just because these are anti-Israel statements!!!

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55

Dragomir,

14/11/2006 11:10:06

You say of "anti-Israel" as if it were racism or sexism. OF COURSE it's anti Israel! Why else would he/she try to argument against Israel allegations of legality? PRO-Israel feeling?

Come on, step beyond the words and look at the ideas. Or are you anti-thinking?

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56

P.K,

14/11/2006 13:54:57

Of course, it's "Anti-Israel call centre" and such term is most appropriate in use to refer to those Israel bashers. You are no different either when it comes to dealing with someone who is pro-Israel!

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57

maestra,

14/11/2006 15:01:20

PK - I have no idea what you are talking about. (call centre?)

I am concerned about what is happening right now, to Palestinians, right now, who are the ones being 'wiped off the map'.

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58

Dragomir,

14/11/2006 15:12:33

Because I don't see the World in BLACK AND WHITE, GOOD AND BA or whatever other analogy there is for this duality. Dividing reality with one hard line is not only a mistake but completly stupid, idiotic and retarded. It causes great violence and conflict, death, genocide, suffering, etc.

By all means, go ahead and feel offensed about what I said, but let me know when you break out of the cage of "words" you're in right now.

I'm an Israel basher? fine. I'm a pro-israel basher? That's like anti-pro-israel. Are you anti-anti-pro-israel? That means I'm pro-anti-pro-israel. That's like the other silly term "self-hating jew". What a waste of keyboard strokes.

Prejudice is at its highest before the war starts...

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59

P.K,

14/11/2006 15:42:49

#57

It's a term used or name made up by one of your friends who call pro-Israel posters as "Israeli call centre". So, I just add another word in front of it.

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60

P.K,

14/11/2006 15:51:23

#58

You're too blind with prejudice! Go ahead and be Israel basher and passing biased judgements if that make yourself feel better. It won't change anything at all. Get used to it, Israel and USA are here to stay!

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61

Dragomir,

www.at3p.org 14/11/2006 16:29:59

Biased? with what? I have no interests in it other then support for human rights.

I don't even live near the Middle East, nor do I live in a nazi german community.

What am I biased to? Helping suffering people? Oh, fine, that's fine with me. I have nothing to gain from this and nor does anyone I know personally.

So again, why would my judgement be skewed since I have absolutley NOTHING to gain from telling the truth about Israel ?

In fact the people who would have something to gain from this would be the Americans, who would use billions of dollars sent to Israel for helping their own sick, jobless and starving people.

Yes, I admit, Palestinians pay me thousands of dollars each month to fight for them on the internet, to spread propaganda, decieve people with pure logic + double speak, propaganda, and to spread footage of palestinian children with their heads cracked and their brains leaking out or other palestinians with their heads melted by misterious weapons. I ADMIT! I'm GETTING RICH thanks to Hamas and Hezballah!! Muahhahahaa.

Well not really, but that would be bias. I'm glad you use my arguments against me, but unfortunately you can't prove them. You want to be right? Work for it, prove it... logic and reason are the tools at your disposal.

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62

P.K,

15/11/2006 08:10:11

#61

Neither do I live in the Middle East nor a Jew or an Israeli.

If you are really sincere in supporting human rights as you claimed to be, then your comments on the Middle East conflict should consist of fair and well-balanced posts - NO taking side, negative attitude and posess ill-feeling against the other. After all both sides are equally guilty of crimes against humanity.

Your numerous posts clearly expose your true colour. You are particularly fond of spreading extreme hatred and making disparaging remarks against pro-Israel posters although they did furnish their statement with facts. Duncan was right about you being overloaded with hatred and all you ever did was to reply him with insults!

When Lynne presented the documentary "Obsession", you were quick to remark it as 100% propaganda and spewed silly excuses to discredit it just because it is not to your liking the documentary is pro-Israel and America although in reality, such kind of events did really happen today.

So, what about the many websites you presented? Could I also consider giving rash remarks by saying they are just another collection of propaganda and distorted news, if you like?

Don't just talk of suffering Palestinian people alone! Israeli civilians (as well as Palestinians) are also victims of Hamas terrorism which bred violence!! Don't expect Israel to sit idle and doing nothing when Gaza militants shoot rockets. Israel has every rights to retaliate in defence. If Hamas wants stability, then don't send rockets only later to complain of unfortunate civilian casualities when Israel fires in return.

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63

maestra,

15/11/2006 08:59:05

PK - For the record, I am neither Jewish nor Muslim - in fact I don't practice any religion now, but was brought up Roman Catholic in the US, and VERY sympathetic to the Jews (somehow, I never got any of that 'The Jews killed Christ' line that one hears so much about...) and to the whole "Exodus"- style concept of Israel - how dreadful it was for them and for Israel having to be constantly defending themselves, etc. I had not done much reading on it, just caught the overall US vibe.

Then, I learned that Vanessa Redgrave was effectively barred from performing or appearing to some extent in the US by the (I had no idea how powerful then!) Jewish lobby due to her expression of her concerns about the plight of the Palestinians. I was kind of taken aback by what I saw as the fairly heavy-handed suppression of free speech, even though I still saw the issue in fairly black and white terms, but I still wasn't really interested.

Then I moved here (Scotland), and due to the much more global perspective that comes with living in a European country, two things happened: I began to really see the US in a very different light, and I began to realize the great importance of the Middle East to much of what was going on in the rest of the world. I began to read and learn and become more aware of the situation, and my perspective grew and changed.

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64

Dragomir,

15/11/2006 13:16:05

Israeli civilians are part of an illegal occupation, they're the oppressors, they started this conflict by showing up and stealing the lands of Palestinians, therefore I refuse to respect any people who START conflicts and violence.

The Zionists have breached the human rights of Palestinians and for this the "contract" of their Human Rights has been broken due to their actions. They breached the "contract" and do not deserve to be judged on the same level as Palestinians who are the victims. When you break the rights of somebody else, you lose your rights and any reply to the the offense you made is justified by the fight to regain one's own rights. Cause and effect. The creation of Israel by Zionist organization is the cause, the effect is the Palestinians fight for survival and reclaiming of their lands. This point has to be considered whenever we Judge the situation in the Middle East, because we must never forget who the attackers, the occupiers are and who is the defender. I do not agree with suicide bombings and rocket attacks, BUT I understandthese are a REPLY to almost a century of violence, not an initial attack. Of course it would be better if the Palestinians marched in the streets, but considering the trigger-happy nature of the IDF, those Palestinians would be slaughtered, and zionists would be dancing in the streets about it, just like a few did near 9/11 when the towers were pulled down.

Brand me with whatever words you Wish. "Obsession" is propaganda because it seldom shows the full truth, it uses unproven theories spammed in the media as backup and the rare interviews with "the other side" are inconclusive and typical of media "reformulating". Furthermore the movie is polluted with subtle symbols especially known to the end public - Americans. I have worked in Public Relations and Advertising, there are so many ways to subtly manipulate weak minds and crowds... tha

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65

P.K,

15/11/2006 14:33:50

#64

Your argument on stolen lands has been very old and stale! Live for the present rather than dwelling your life all for the past. Anyway, Dilbert (#43 website) made sensible comment than you where land issues is concerned.

No difference does it make! Both sides are as guilty as committing atrocities and breached human rights against the other. Like I said earlier, both Palestinian and Israeli civilians are victim of terrorism perpetuated by Hamas militants. Israel is also fighting for survival and a place to stay.

Of course, the documentary "Obsession" is propaganda to you because of your inbuilt hatred for Israel and America. Similar events taken place as shown in "Obsession" can also be found on my TV unbiased news network.

You can give all sort of excuses and fabrications you like regarding "Obsession" but the truth will speak for itself and the world has come to know the simple truth of Hamas and Hezbollah engaged in terrorism. That's the fact you cannot change, anyway.

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66

,

15/11/2006 14:53:02

Comment Removed By Administrator

Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 169817, Article id was mapped to record!

67

jjulie,

15/11/2006 14:56:01

P.K

You forgot to add in that the truth which speaks for itself has also come to show th world that Israel and it's allies have engaged in mass terrorism

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68

P.K,

15/11/2006 15:21:45

#66, 67

Your friend Hamas neither give a s*** for the innocents either! Today as reported, an elderly Israeli woman was killed by rocket shot from Gaza. She is no terrorist either! So, the real troublemaker in making is your terrorist friends, Hamas!

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69

Dragomir,

at3p.org 15/11/2006 17:18:36

"your inbuilt hatred for Israel and America"

HA! Inbuilt???

I grew up in a capitalist Christian environment, just like most in the West. I watched the same cartoons, the same Hollywood movies, I learned the same stories and histories, the played with the same toy soldiers and toy cars as everyone else about in the West. I read the same comic books about superheroes and evil doers. I grew up loving money and owning stuff which I eventually didn't like and threw away or broke. I grew up with the same MTV, the same fashions and obsessions promoted by them, being "cool". That's why I know English so well. I grew up with the same "Oh the beautiful tragedy and growth of the Jewish people, the beautiful country of Israel". More like inbuilt hate for Arabs, even though they did nothing to me or anyone I knew.

But no matter, reason and logic helped erase the prejudice. I despise ANY religion, especially the ones which lie and deceive people and provide room for more prejudice and blind fear. I despise the selfishness and promotion of blind hunger for gold and money which is destroying Nature, instead of collective constructive work for the benefit of everyone. And guess what, the way I reached such ideas had nothing to do Islam, Arabs, Muslims or communists. Nothing. It's only in the last years that I have managed to catch up on clean global history.

So feel free to throw prejudice at me, but notice that by doing so you're only making yourself more immune to reason.

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70

P.K,

16/11/2006 03:22:42

#69

The character traits which you described yourself above is not consistent with your previous posts. You can live in pretence and go on to say whatever you like to deny the militants responsibility of inciting the conflict in the first place, knowing fully well their actions would consequencely lead to civilian deaths!

Maybe you find it unacceptable for Israel to return fire as to defend herself after being attacked by the militants. Precisely, civilian casualities is being used as a weapon against Israel to gain world sympathy eventhough they are the troublemakers who started the conflict. Israel was being provoked to retaliate back. You can't expect Israel to go soft on this. And if there are any civilian casualities, blame on the perpetrators.

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71

Dragomir,

16/11/2006 12:52:56

It's not consistent because you're full of prejudice and tried to put me in a stereotype.

It's the right of any people to fight if they live under an occupation.

What don't you understand in this?

Yes, it would be better if the PLO was still in charge in Palestine, not Hamas which is much more fundamentalist. It also would be great if the Palestinians wouldn't be living in a large PRISON built by Israel!

When are you going to understand this conflict is not blanaced? If it would be, we would see some serious negotiations going on.

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72

P.K,

16/11/2006 13:54:23

#71

What occupation? I thought Israel has already left Gaza to let the Palestinians rule themselves and set up their own government or elect a government of their own choice.

Unfortunately, Hamas militants are not satisfied in so much as to shoot rockets into Israel as well as sending suicide bombers, thus causing trouble once again. That's where the problems start, leading to civilian casualites.
Serious negotiation isn't going well because Hamas refuses to recognise the state of Israel nor do they want to renounce violence.

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73

Dragomir,

Romania 16/11/2006 15:55:16

Yeah, they left Gaza, in dying in ruins. And they stepped up the construction of settlements and walls in the West Bank.

Some retreat.

By the way, Hamas exists since the 1st Entifada (uprising).

Here's a glossary of terms (euphemisms) used to describe (PR) the conflict in Palestine by Western Media:

http://www.codshit.com/ignorance3.asp

here's the translation from the PR term "Phased withdrawal":

Grudging Israeli pullout of occupying forces over the area it chooses, on a timescale it determines, and only after it obtains guarantees that the local population will be policed to its satisfaction. No settlements are ever dismantled, only areas where the cost of occupation has become too high.

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74

P.K,

16/11/2006 16:24:09

#73

We are into the topic of Gaza and not West Bank. I'm also not interested in your website. Since you regarded Lynne's documentary "Obsession" as 100% propaganda, I would also consider yours the same.

What more to complain, after all Israel has already given up Gaza and left it to the Palestinians to rule themselves, setting up their choice of government. But in so doing, Israel is being "rewarded" with rockets, unfortunately!

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75

Dragomir,

at3p.org 16/11/2006 18:21:41

P.K.

What Israel did to Gaza was the equivalent of beating someone into a comma and throwing the in a ditch. Does that sound reasonable to you?

NO? you probably think I'm lying. OK, what do you know about how palestinians are living?

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Offensive Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." - David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

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76

Dragomir,

at3p.org 16/11/2006 18:28:44

"Since you regarded Lynne's documentary "Obsession" as 100% propaganda, I would also consider yours (site) the same."

why thank you, how mature of you to take such a stand, would you like a badge for such a selfless sacrifice?

I'm sure she'll pop in soon to give you hugs and kisses for such a heroic act.

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77

Lynne,

USA 17/11/2006 01:25:49

PK..thank you!!!...XXXX...OOOO
Is that ok Dragomir?

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78

P.K,

17/11/2006 06:32:20

#75

Your first paragraph refers.
That is no longer relevant and appropriate after all Gaza has already been returned to the Palestinians. So, I don't see why you should make a big fuss over it now.

Second paragraph: "What do you know about how Palestinians are living?"
And what has happened to the millions of dollars donated to the Palestinian National Fund as international aid to the Palestinian Authority under the late Yasser Arafat? Spend on weapons? Isn't that a lot of money enough to help the poor Palestinians? Where has all the money gone to?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3995769.stm

What have the past leaders' quote got to do with the present? The fact is, they are/were no longer in control neither ruled Israel at present. So, their past statements do not mean anything now!

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79

P.K,

17/11/2006 06:50:10

#76

Are you any smarter or mature enough by passing rash judgement and making silly excuses that do not make any sense with regards to the documentary presented by Lynne? Obviously, you couldn't accept the truth!

The website given above comes from BBC. Your post #64 informed me that BBC has very low bias.

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80

Jacq,

17/11/2006 09:25:21

There is nothing to be disgusted with the documentary "Obsession"! Similar scenes such as the ones showed there appeared on my TV as well as newspapers. The truth needs to be known. No use trying to cover up their guilt of terrorism. There is nothing to be surprised or shocked for such events did indeed happen after all.

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