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Monday, 2nd November 2009 Change Date Latest Issue

Worshippers' prayers answered as church reopens after £6m upgrade

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Published Date: 01 September 2008
A CITY centre church has re-opened after a £6 million revamp
Members of St Paul's and St George's Episcopal Church in York Place have spent nearly three years worshipping in temporary premises while the massive renovation programme was carried out.

But on Saturday they moved back into the Grade A-listed bui
lding – exactly 300 years after the church was first founded.

The refurbishment includes internal balconies which almost double the capacity from 400 to 750 seats, a three-storey extension to provide multi-functional meeting rooms and a glass pavilion to provide a more welcoming entrance area.

The building now also has improved access for people with disabilities, a new sound and vision system, a fully-fitted kitchen to cater for large social gatherings and increased toilet facilities.

Rector Dave Richards said the money to pay for the revamp had come entirely through donations by members of the church, which had so far raised £5.3m.

He said the church had "agonised" over spending such a huge sum on a building.

But he said: "The last time it had any serious capital investment was when it was built 200 years ago."

Mr Richards added: "We are thrilled with the new facilities. It combines the best of the old with the best of the new. Anyone coming in will be pleasantly surprised. We want to be a church that is relevant to people."

St Paul's and St George's – known as "P's & G's" – was a struggling congregation of around 20 in 1985 when another Episcopal church, St Thomas's in Corstorphine, decided to mount a rescue operation by transferring 50 members to boost numbers and bringing in a new rector.

Since then, it has grown to be the largest Episcopal congregation in Scotland and one of the largest churches in the UK with nearly 800 worshippers.

The congregation moved out of the building in January 2006 and since then has worshipped at Pollock Halls as well as holding services at The Hub and the Mary Erskine School.

The church traces its origins back to August 1708, when Robert Blair became the first Episcopalian priest of a new congregation, which met in a room in Half Moon Close on Castle Hill.

A week of special celebrations to mark the re-opening began with two special thanksgiving services on Saturday.

The church will be open all week for people to pop in for a coffee and a tour, and other activities include a free lunch on Thursday for anyone in the area; a children's party on Saturday for all primary-age children; pizza and praise on Saturday for teenagers in S1-S6.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 September 2008 11:01 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Calum Crubag,

Dun Eideann 01/09/2008 12:36:54
Some questions-
If God is all powerful, why did he allow 'his' church to fall into disrepair?

If God is everywhere and always watching and listening, do people need a huge expensive building in which to 'praise' him?
2

Howard Moon,

01/09/2008 12:52:14
I assume you're a WUM Calum, but anyway:

The Building wasn't in disrepair as far as I know, they just wanted to make alterations to it. And anyway, if you want to take the line of why an all-powerful God allows things to happen I doubt you'd start with the condition of a Church in York Place. I think most Christians would say that the world's imperfections are due to the fall of man and sin, but there are about a billion other forums where that could be discussed.

No, but there is a biblical and historical precedent for corporate worship. Big buildings are rarely inexpensive.
3

,

01/09/2008 13:03:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

,

01/09/2008 13:10:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Peedie Paws,

01/09/2008 13:16:41
Does anyone ever go to church nowadays? I thought most of them were closing and being taken over by coffee shops/wine bars etc!
6

Linmal,

Livingston 01/09/2008 13:20:42
#4 Christians do not "hate gays". Christians hate the sin but love the sinner, there is a difference, and it is a very big difference. The Bible tells us that it is a sin for man to lie with a man as he would with a woman, end of.

True Christianity is all about love. What is wrong with having a moral code anyway? Since the 60s the world has been discarding most of the moral values which were long held and look at the state of things. 13 year old children having babies, abortions on the rise etc, etc. Maybe it is time we went back to the true teachings of the Church.

If you go to a true Christian Church anywhere in the world they will tell you that you must hate the sin but love the sinner. That is what Christ said. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". But he also said "go then and sin no more".
7

Duncan in Edinburgh,

01/09/2008 13:31:30
#6 Blah blah blah. Anyone who accepts "love the sinner hate the sin" is either deliberately excusing homophobia or is too stupid to see the profound contradiction in that position.

The Bible tells you a lot of things. Why do you ignore most of them, and yet focus with fury on that one?

What a lot of nonsense.
8

Howard Moon,

01/09/2008 13:39:10
#7

'The Bible tells you a lot of things. Why do you ignore most of them, and yet focus with fury on that one?'

Sorry if i'm missing the point, but isn't that what you and #3 and #4 are doing? Honestly don't want to get into an argument, so apologies if this comes across as provocative.

Btw, I love my brother but there are a few things about him I don't approve of. Still love him though.
9

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 13:45:51
#4 G. Suscryst

As usual, those, like you, who make themselves out to be the most tolerant in our society tend to have a wee hypocritical, fascist streak running through them. You don't find it a bit ironic to criticise Christians for being 'narrow-minded' then urge others to ostracise people just because they hold different beliefs to you? How liberal. How democratic. You're the one who comes over as a nasty wee zealot.
10

Storky,

edinburgh 01/09/2008 13:51:19
First of all homosexuality is an act of perversion.
I challenge any moral-driven person to consider the actual sexual act for more than a split-second.

Despite this these people need desperate help to overcome this moral sin.
11

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 13:54:53
#10 Storky

And then again, there are folk like you, living in the Dark Ages, who provide ammunition for the horrible wee zealots.
12

Storky,

edinburgh 01/09/2008 14:21:54
#11

I'm making a perfectly reasonable statement. If bigots want to misuse my opinions that's up to them.

And by the way: if living in the 'dark ages' means a morally responsible society where men form relationships with women only, then yes I accept your point.
13

Shaggy B,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 14:29:19
I find this discussion extraordinary, with bigoted statements from both ends of the intolerance spectrum! From my experience, the large majority of mainstream Christians and, indeed, people of all religions or none, are completely OK with anyone of any sexuality, faith, etc, etc. In other words, we're completely non-judgemental. I do object to anyone implying that I as a church-going Christian am a Nazi or homophobe (#3 & 4) or that I think homosexuality is in any way deviant or perverse (#6 & 10.)
14

Puzzler,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 14:42:46
#3 & #4 If this is your notion of Christianity, I think you should probably both have a wee lie down in a nice dark room.

15

Puzzler,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 14:44:05
As far as the refurbishment is concerned - £6 million sounds like enough to build a church from scratch. The congregation were originally asked to raise £3 million. That amount has now doubled. They will be paying it off for years to come. It has gone from a practical solution to overcrwoding, to a huge vanity project. Despite having a clergy team of three fully ordained ministers it does not seem to have occurred to anyone to simply increase the number of Sunday services.

Although the congregation is large, it is also very elitist. It has a very high proportion of extremely rich people in it and a very low proportion of working people if any. Policy is to target young students - note, not just young people - and young professionals.

The clergy group are becoming increasingly distant from the congregation, with levels of unordained "leaders" and barely trained individuals fulfilling the pastoral role that belongs to them. There is an increasing atmosphere of spiritual pride and complacency, that does not tolerate criticism.

More worryingly, it is one of the few active churches without a justice and peace group or any real active involvement in the wider community, or social justice issues. This is left to individuals. All appeals are simply for money for the building project.

I wonder what Jesus would say?
16

Linmal,

Livingston 01/09/2008 14:59:48
#7 How do you know what I ignore or don't ignore? For too many years people have chosen to take a "pick and mix" attitude towards religion, or anything else. Instead of accepting all of its doctrines, people (in general) have discarded those they didn't like and kept those that they did. That is not christianity. The Bible is full of contradictions. Judge not lest ye be judged, etc, etc.

Just look around you to see the unhappiness immoral living has caused in the world. And I'm sticking my neck out here - Aids and HIV. I will be called a homophobe for this one but common sense tells you that if you don't indulge then you won't get this disease, simple as. I don't consider it to be a judgement. The God I worship is a loving God, but another quotation is ye shall reap what you sow, and if that isn't a case in point I don't know what is.
17

DrN,

01/09/2008 15:01:44
@3 & 4. Just to say, gay female member of P&Gs checking in here, and I enjoy the service/worship. I'll remember to go persecute myself at some point, since that's what the members of PsGs do.
18

DrN,

01/09/2008 15:03:34
@17, lesbians must be extra blessed then, as they are at the lowest risk of STD transmission.
19

Storky,

edinburgh 01/09/2008 15:09:05
#13

If you are a Christian then you should check out
1 Timothy 1: 9-10. In case you need some help it's in the New Testament.
20

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 15:55:15
#13 Storky

As an agnostic, far be it from me to criticise anyone's Faith, but just as an interested observer and one who agrees with what we're told the fundamental message of Jesus Christ was, I can't see how you can condemn someone as sinful unless you are completely sin-free yourself (sound familiar?) I presume you have or do commit some sins. If you don't, you're an impressive and very rare human being. If not, are your sins 'better'than others'? And as for basing EVERY element of our modern ethics system on what was written 2000 years ago, I take it you don't believe women are fit to minister to people's souls, or have you moved with the times in that rspect? Just interested.
21

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 15:55:57
Sorry, that was to #19 Storky
22

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 16:01:17
#13 Shaggy

I wasn't implying you were some sort of homophobic Nazi. On the contrary, the only one on here who resembles the Nazi is the self-appointed moralist, #4. No, I may disagree with your thoughts on homosexuality but I was never deny you the right to hold them or to say they are any less valid than mine.
23

Storky,

edinburgh 01/09/2008 16:08:03
#20 Draco Was a Wimp

I'm certainly not condemning anyone. There is a clear biblical warning to those that judge and condemn.

I'm merely stating biblical facts for our so called Christian #13.

The debate is about the act of homosexuality as opposed to condemning people. My point is that it is an unnatural act.

You are right, there are many other sins but perhaps that's a discussion for another day...

24

Shaggy B,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 17:48:22
This is all rather straying from the subject of the article - sorry. But I do hope that the average reader here doesn't think that Storky represents the average view from the pew. Sorry Storky, but just by quoting 1 Tim. you've displayed your simplistic interpretation of the Bible and sheer judgementalism (if that's a real word) viz: not accounting for the various interpretations of Paul's word "arsenokoitai" in the verses you cite, which was not the usual term for homosexuality at the time, but is probably more accurately interpreted as relating to sex slavery or boy prostitution. But there's no reasoning with some folk, so I think I'll probably just leave it there.
25

,

01/09/2008 18:59:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
26

Applecrumble,

Balerno 01/09/2008 19:41:25
The thing about church isn't so much these days about praying to God in church, true believers do that anywhere and anytime but what a church building such as this signify is a hub, a meeting place for those who believe in God to meet and praise Him collectively and also a place for other events such as concertsand charity events while also providing support to groups such as the elderly or disabled or socialy inept.

I personally don't believe in church because I see it as corrupt in many ways but sometimes it is just nice to be with people who aren't trying to kill each other or people who don't judge you for being you as I've experienced so often.
27

tumshie heid,

01/09/2008 19:57:48
Churches are places where people go to make them feel superior to others. What an outrageous sum of money to spend on a building just to sing a few songs and listen to fairy stories.
Perhaps the money raised from its affluent congregation should have been used for something more practical like helping the homeless/victims of natural disasters etc.
It beggars belief that there are still so many people willing to place such faith in the nonsense that is the bible. Why? Are they so scared of their mortality that they clutch at straws?Believing that they will move on to a better place after death...Cobblers!!
28

The Pict.,

Canada 01/09/2008 20:58:05
The money would have been better spent on 'teaching' the developing world how to grow food and have clean drinking water etc. That is the moral thing to do rather than mumble away to a non-existant jewish god Yaweh. Remember chirstians: Your bible was written by Jews for Jews. Your money should go to good causes rather than support the wars of your George Bush and his lap dogs.
You Scots should follow your own ficticious god anyway if you must believe in your own inferiority.
29

foxinredsox,

Edinburgh 01/09/2008 21:09:37
15 Puzzler.
A few comments on yours.

You're right the £6 million cost is a lot - and money could have gone to other places as other contributors rightly say. But the congregation after much debate, decided to do something with that building that will last decades and make it a place that can change lives in the heart of the capital city.
'Vanity project' as you describe it is not true. Every step of the way this has been thought through by the church (staff, volunteers on vestry, congregation members) with as much integrity as possible and ultimately with a focus on what the building and its people go on to do next. If it was vanity we would all just sit and look at it. The first Sunday back in the church looked at what would happen next, in terms of local action and overseas...not at how great the building was.

For the record, the church does support many other areas of work locally, nationally and internationally by giving away 10% of the income it receives.

Congregation elitist? No. Lots of professionals yes and some rich people too. No crime in that. But you'll also find people at every point of the wealth or health spectrum.

Policy to target young students? This church has many groups for many ages including one for students. What's the problem?

You're right at the moment there's no social justice group...plans for more local involvement are afoot....but you didn't mention the breadth of activities; marriage prep courses, counselling service, social action group, env group, supports overseas workers and much more.

St Paul's and St George's is by no means perfect...but it never claims to be...but I do believe it tries hard to be as good as it can be.

30

The Pict.,

01/09/2008 22:06:06
Puzzler & Foxinredsox : The exsitance of Christ is of course fictional. This particular fairytale was stolen from the Egyptian called Huros. All the ' miracles ' that Chirst 'did' were in fact recorded 2.000 years before Christ and done by HUROS. The father of Huros was called ' RA' and all the words 'One god' and all the other nonsense were the words of RA. You will find the recorded evidence in the MUSEUM of ALEXANDRIA. Of course the Jews came from EGYPT so since the myth of an afterlife originated with the EGYPTIANS I'm sure you can figure out the rest of the fable or fables.
31

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

01/09/2008 22:21:20
£6 million pound - have a word with yourself church folk - that money could be better spent on humanitarian needs. Its just an obscene waste & why ? - so you can all spend an hour one day a week under a dry roof ? shame on you all.
32

Applecrumble,

Balerno 01/09/2008 23:00:20
#30 the pict
You should not need proof that the Lord God exists, you should merely believe and trust that He is there. I am not foisting my opinion onto you or anyone else so do not tell me that the God I and billions of others have believed in over centuries and still do believee in does not exist. We will not believe you, we will believe our God instead.
33

tumshie heid,

02/09/2008 00:08:27
#32 Aye and I'm just about to post my list for santa up the lum!! I and billions of other children have believed in him as well as your fairy stories.
34

Sunshiney,

Edinburgh 06/09/2008 18:39:45
In defence of Ps&Gs, this project was undertaken after a great deal of thought, prayer and consultation. Although other churches may be shrinking - Ps&Gs was full! The project became bigger, more expensive and longer lasting than anyone could have predicted - yet the aim all the way through was to make a building that was fit to serve the community, so the project continued.

Despite the challenges faced, all the money was raised from the congregation. No money was received from charities, lottery etc - so other organisations were not denied funds. Instead the congregation of Ps&Gs chose to sacrificially go without things like holidays, nights out, gym membership etc so that they could bring their building back to life. Surely how individuals spend their money is completely up to them.

Regarding the future - surely the church would have come under fire had it let the building fall into disrepair? Instead (because of this project) Ps&Gs has a building ready for the long future ahead.

This intends to be a church for everyone. Quite aside from only opening 1.5 hrs on a sunday - they have 3 services every sunday and plan to open the building as much as possible at other times to accommodate local projects.

As a church their vision for the future is 3 fold:
1) To Worship God and be a Christ centred church
2) To serve God's world locally and globally
3) To love people - the church should be a place of openness, honesty and loving relationships.

For more information on the the churches future strategy go to the church website and click strategy.
35

member,

edinburgh 18/09/2008 13:13:16
come and visit:) and put your pre conceptions to the test

 

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