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Lothian Buses chiefs told to sort out pram ban 'fiasco'



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Published Date: 24 September 2008
LOTHIAN Buses is to be told to sort out the "fiasco" created by its contentious pram ban.
A cross-party delegation of councillors is to visit the local authority-owned bus company to make clear their unhappiness at the situation.

Drivers have been instructed to turn away passengers with prams or buggies which can't be folded.

City transport leader Councillor Phil Wheeler today led the growing criticism of the firm, accusing it of taking a "heavy handed" approach.

The move comes after city officials concluded the disabled rights legislation on which the ban is based is open to interpretation.

The council has noted a recent Department of Transport statement which said the legislation allows the wheelchair space to be used by other users, but that it should be vacated when a wheelchair user requires it.

This is the compromise that campaigners – and the Evening News – have been calling for in recent months.

Lothian Buses today said it was sticking to its interpretation of the disability rights laws to ensure there is always a space for a wheelchair.

Cllr Wheeler said: "I am disappointed that Lothian Buses has been so heavy handed in this issue. I don't see why they can't allow the drivers to use their discretion.

"I would like to ask the company to close out this fiasco and change their stance."

Although Lothian Buses is 91 per cent owned by the city council, the local authority is not allowed to interfere with its day-to-day operations because of legislation set up during the deregulation of the bus industry in the 1980s.

The council does, however, elect the people who sit on Lothian Buses' board of directors.

Steve Ryan, commercial director for Lothian Buses, said: "Our own experience is that in fact many mothers are refusing to fold up their buggies or move to make way for disabled passengers.

"We are trying to adhere to the law, it is as simple as that."

Mr Ryan admitted the firm's evidence was anecdotal rather than based on research.

Councillor Mark McInnes, the city's Tory transport spokesman, said: "Lothian Buses has been going through a public relations disaster since June and now we find there is no statistical support for their argument.

"It seems strange to me that Lothian Buses are pushing down this path."

Lothian Buses' ban on prams is not a new policy, but the issue came to the fore in July when drivers were told by the company to enforce it.

Councillor Ian Perry, the city's Labour transport spokesman, said: "I understand that the council cannot interfere with the operational side of Lothian Buses but we are the biggest shareholder, and we have a moral duty to step in because people are being denied access to vital services."

Campaigners revealed at a charged transport committee meeting yesterday that more than 1000 people have signed their petition at the Scottish Parliament.

Caroline Burgess, 27, from Barnton, one of the mums leading the campaign, said: "The policy is frankly unfair and discriminates against young parents."


The full article contains 515 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 24 September 2008 11:15 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Lothian Buses , Transport
 
1

Bob 2,

24/09/2008 12:05:12
another story repeated from the EN

so can expect the same Comments.

Yawn

Caroline Burgess, 27, from Barnton, one of the mums leading the campaign, said: "The policy is frankly unfair and discriminates against young parents."

and what about old Parents?
2

Linmal,

Livingston 24/09/2008 12:13:27
For goodness sake - I was on holiday last week and thought this would have been forgotten about by the time I got back - compromise for goodness sake and get this thing sorted and please EN don't print anything else about it until the matter is resolved 'cos it is totally boring now.
3

allknowing,

24/09/2008 12:15:16
"which said the legislation allows the wheelchair space to be used by other users, but that it should be vacated when a wheelchair user requires it"

Thats the problem. Mums not moving to give way for disabled people. Any way, this caroline person doesnt live in Barnton, try park grove/clermiston.

4

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 24/09/2008 12:16:52
Simple solution really - ban all prams!!

Prams never used to be able to travel on buses and as I and many have mentioned before we Mothers managed fine - coping with nursery - work - etc, etc.

BAN THE PRAMS!!
5

Boy Wonder,

24/09/2008 12:19:25
I had to use the bus on Monday ... and saw two pensioners get up out of their seats to let a young woman with an uncollapsed buggy use the space ...and that is unacceptable!!!
6

Miss Scotland 1906,

On top of a bus stop near you. 24/09/2008 12:21:14
When did people become so lazy that they can not put the parm down to get on the bus. The older buses you have to this on. What do they do just wait for one of the new ones. Also when I young I was had to sit on my mums lap to let other people have a seat. You do not see that so much now with people and their kids now.
7

Miss Scotland 1906,

At a bus stop. 24/09/2008 12:23:32
#5 I have seen that too.
#4 You have a very good point.
8

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 12:24:04
#5:

"and that is unacceptable!!!"

It was clearly acceptable to them, otherwsie they wouldn't have done it. It's called "tolerance" mate. Remember "tolerance" before the nanny state legislated it out of existance?
9

Bob 2,

24/09/2008 12:25:17
yawn
10

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 12:30:33

Are there prams on the Standard Life bus? No.
11

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 12:31:59

It's discrminatist and racial how there's no prams allowed on MiG-29 demonstration flights
12

Irked,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 12:34:14
Folding a pram up isn't a particularly practical solution especially if you have other bags. You still need to keep a hold of your child, carry the pram (and bags) on to the bus, buy your ticket, stow the pram (and bags) and get to your seat.

All that takes time and you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be no one willing to help and a lot of tutting at you for the time it has taken you to accomplish all that.

The practical solution is to allow prams on until the space is required by a wheelchair user. In the years I've been using Edinburgh buses I've only seen one wheelchair user on a bus.

This really is a storm in a tea cup. Could it be a smoke screen to stop people complaining about route cuts and the sale of the bus company?
13

alex paterson,

edinburgh 24/09/2008 12:34:56
Very easy sorted,the drivers just tell them,prams were made for pushing now scram.
14

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 12:35:24
#10:

And I don't allow prams in my car. I don't allow wheelchairs in it either. Or dogs.
15

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 12:37:10

Lothian Buses don't like the Bairns, they should get to Falkirk
16

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 12:38:47
"Could it be a smoke screen to stop people complaining about route cuts and the sale of the bus company?"

Possibly. I'm more inclined to believe that it is the result of general stupidity and people needing everything written down in rule books as they are unable to think for themselves.

The stupid labour party have a hell of a lot to answer for in that they have turned the majority of people into un-thinking plebs over the last 11 years.
17

Saoghal Beag,

24/09/2008 12:38:51
why don't they open up the routes to SPT, the glasgow buses carry "Pram Friendly" stickers. Must be some wags effort to show up the difference between the two cities.
18

Miss Scotland 1906,

24/09/2008 12:39:44
#12
You make laugh.
People where able to fold down prams before so why not not now. Too lazy. Because they can get on the bus without folding it they feel it is right to become lazy and do it all the time.
19

john3,

24/09/2008 12:40:02
Since this has all started I have noticed a vast improvement in the attitude of young mothers and a decrease in size of their buggies. No longer are they demanding the space but asking. None of it would have arisen if they had behaved appropriately in the first place. No doubt if LRT are in any way compromised into reversing their decision the young women will yet again return to the arrogant attitude so many adopted before.
20

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 24/09/2008 12:41:25
#12 - that's always been the case which is why the only solution is BAN THE PRAM!
There, I've just saved you numerous problems the next time you have to go shopping with your baby!

BAN THE PRAM !! - oh and yes I did have to juggle children, shopping, work, etc. etc. at a time when prams weren't allowed on buses - caused me no difficulties at all.

BAN THE PRAM!!



21

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 12:48:46

#12 juggling children, shopping and work is easy, but can you pat your head with one hand and make a circular motion on your stomach with the other?
22

Pacob75,

24/09/2008 12:51:02
The "young" mothers and MSP delegation FAILED and I'm pretty sure that this "cross party" delegation of numpties will also FAIL.

Stop whinging and get on with it!
23

Desperately Seeking.......a solution,

24/09/2008 12:53:54
Why don't they just provide a "pram bus", stick them all in it and drive them to Largs.......
24

Miss Scotland 1906,

24/09/2008 12:56:10
I like the no21 bus because most times if not all the time it is an old bus and they have to prams if they want on.
25

Miss Scotland 1906,

24/09/2008 12:57:11
that would fold their prams
26

Miss Scotland 1906,

24/09/2008 13:00:23
I do not like to use the 22 because for prams. Wish they would have buses with the two doors back, 1 for on and 1 for off. Not like the new ones.
27

Howard Moon,

24/09/2008 13:01:17
This whole business is pathetic and a little bit depressing. But when you have a nanny state demanding a red carpet for wheelchair users everywhere, mothers (who may or may not be single, and may or may not be young) who expect everything to be provided for them on a plate, a newspaper desperate for something, no matter how frivilous, to moan and launch 'campaigns' about, and a bus company determined to create pro-tram arguments where none previously existed, this is the inevitable outcome.
28

newtownboy,

Buckstone 24/09/2008 13:05:59
Make them all walk - lazy!
29

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 13:07:48

#27 - Nannies, red carpets, plates - all your missing there is a kitchen sink and your pile-up of metaphors will be complete.
30

PaulB,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 13:09:36
PLEASE - NO MORE PRAM / BUS STORIES!!!
31

Marathon,

24/09/2008 13:12:25
Yet another relentless diatribe of "i'm telling the teacher on you" nonsense.

"The council has noted a recent Department of Transport statement which said the legislation allows the wheelchair space to be used by other users, but that it should be vacated when a wheelchair user requires it."

LB is doing exactly that. Get back to playing journalists and leave bus operations to those who are qualified to do it properly.

What an irresponsible way to conduct a "story".
32

KTCB41,

24/09/2008 13:12:51
THis is not about what right it's about who can shout the loudest.

It's not about what is reasonable, Lothian Buses have tied reasonable and found that with some people reasonable didn't work.

So back to the first point, this is not about right and wrong. It's about people wanting their own way and be prepared to scream and scream and scream untill they are sick.

The Evening News should publish the contact details of the city officials who concluded the disabled rights legislation on which the ban is based is open to interpretation so that wheelchair users can contact them when they are unable to get on the bus in future.
33

Pacob75,

24/09/2008 13:15:38
27 - How is the bus company determined to create pro-tram arguments?

If you remember, they were opposed to the tram scheme from the start.

Facts:
1) It was pushed through parliament by Labour and the u-turning SNP.
2) TIE (100% council owned) along with the Government then decided that Transdev would be the operator and that LB would be responsible for running the scheme on a day-to-day basis.

I would argue that one of the main reasons LB didn't want to go for it was because of predicted passenger numbers and disruption. I guess they were right then.

34

JT,

24/09/2008 13:23:06
If the bus I want is full, I wait will the mums and wheelchair brigade do the same or will they throw a hissy fit claiming discrimination??? You bet. Get a life!
35

the dog,

embra 24/09/2008 13:24:41
shots fired in broomie nah!!!! lets jist go wi the buggy brigade rubbish again
36

Howard Moon,

24/09/2008 13:30:21
#33

What? What has given you that idea? Neil Renilson has never said a word against the trams. 'Pushed through by Labour and the SNP'? The SNP never voted for it!

Everything in your post is wrong.

#29

Cheers Joe. I would love to work for the EEN, maybe you could provide a reference?
37

Marathon,

24/09/2008 13:35:49
I believe that all those reasonably minded people who are in support of the pram ban should write to their local MP, City of Edinburgh Council and Lothian Buses to say so.

We'll soon see where the weight of support lies.

38

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 13:41:33

#36 - I think you already do work for EEN - as do a few other commenters here (not naming any Gorgie Tonys, sorry, names)
39

Howard Moon,

24/09/2008 13:43:46
#39

You got me. I'm John Gibson.
40

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 13:48:01

#40 No. I'm Gibbo
41

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 13:48:49

#40, No you're John R Douglas - Gibbo doppleganger
42

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 13:48:49

#40, No you're John R Douglas - Gibbo doppleganger
43

Pacob75,

24/09/2008 13:48:59
Everything in my post is wrong huh?

So Transdev won't be operating the Tram scheme?

http://www.transdevplc.co.uk/operations/edinburgh-tram

Nothing to do with the SNP?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6243158.stm

Sorry Howard but these ARE the facts.
44

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

24/09/2008 13:51:24
Ban the Prams - its simple. There should be no arguments, particularly where public health & safety is concerned.
45

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 13:51:44

Jan Gibbik - I laughed so much i exhaled six pints of coffe over my computer.

(I didn't really.)
46

big man,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 13:52:06
Thought this article would have finished by now, Cllr Wheeler knew full well what was happening and he says LB are being heavy handed !!, may i make a suggestion, why doesn't the Cllr drive a bus, let someone on with a pram THAT CANT FOLD DOWN, then a few stops later a wheelchair user wants on the bus and the person with the pram refuses to move, then what would he do ?, not all people are so obliging, but there in a minority, before LB had low floor buses what did mothers do with prams !!! they walked, the space provied is for a wheelchair and has only been an unwritten concession that buggies are allowed on if that space is vacant, i trust the EEN will now put this article to sleep, am sure there are bigger issues like shops loosing money because of the tram works in this city.
47

Joe Smith.,

Moscow 24/09/2008 13:59:50

Councillor Wheeler's got a nerve, with a name like that!
48

Howard Moon,

24/09/2008 14:10:42
#43

I take it you are a WUM. 'These are the facts'? OK, I'll be quick but after this no more:

'If you remember, they were opposed to the tram scheme from the start.'
- No they weren't. They never have been.

'Facts:
1) It was pushed through parliament by Labour and the u-turning SNP.'
- No it wasn't. The very story you link to proves you are wrong. The SNP were defeated because they are a minority government and everyone else was in favour of the trams (apart from one Tory councillor).

'2) TIE (100% council owned) along with the Government then decided that Transdev would be the operator and that LB would be responsible for running the scheme on a day-to-day basis.'
- With Lothian Buses forced to do so against their will? That's what you are implying. That's rubbish too.

'I would argue that one of the main reasons LB didn't want to go for it was because of predicted passenger numbers and disruption. I guess they were right then.'
- If Lothian Buses had come out against the trams, this would make sense. Sadly, they didn't.
49

Jakey Rowling,

24/09/2008 14:14:53
New cover version being released by pram campaigners.

Mamas and the Papas - If You're Going to Some Pram Fiasco

50

Pacob75,

24/09/2008 14:58:18
48 - OK then lets agree to disagree, ya jazz maverick ye!

Back to the main article - Is it Ms. Mollison's day-off?
51

Liz,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 15:09:28
#26
That is the fundemental problem with the buses we have. The time wasted whilst people fight their way on and off particularly the single decker buses like the 22 really is pathetic. It is one of the most obivous and preventable reasons for the queues of buses we get.

Go to more sensible countries in Europe you see busses with huge entrances and exists and proper standing areas for commuters - and guess what? their busses are much quicker and more pleasent to use. And they probably have more space for both prams and wheelchairs.
52

Brodric,

24/09/2008 15:13:01
No 51 - The genuine etc - you said it all. I thought that this was done and dusted a long time ago - and am dismayed that I have to start writing letters again.

No 5 Boy Wonder - agreed, it isn't acceptable. But when they see that space is empty of a wheelchair, they think it is their RIGHT to take it, old people or not.
53

Howard Moon,

24/09/2008 15:23:05
#50

No problem. I need to get back to my stationary village anyway. And I do believe more slap bass would help cool tempers as Pramgate reaches its (seemingly inevitable) violent conclusion.

Btw, EEN - Pramgate is copyright Howard Moon.
54

AB's,

24/09/2008 15:24:22
Yawn... here we go again....
55

Grumpy,

24/09/2008 15:27:50
It's OK that mothers should get off if a wheelchair user comes along - fine if you're on a bus route like the 22/26/44 when there's a bus every 3 minutes. But if you're a Mum or a wheelchair user that lives in Craigentinny, then because of cutbacks youll just have to walk up to Piershill or Junction Street.

IF Lothian Buss will not do the job, the fire them and give the routes to someone else.
56

o.a.p. jambo,

on the back straight 24/09/2008 15:46:58
The solution is simple :- ban all buses...scrap the trams...use the money which is saved to give every bus passenger a car. Problem solved !
57

,

24/09/2008 16:01:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

Linmal,

Livingston 24/09/2008 16:08:41
Lets just say no to this drivvel. Buy a fold down pram get on a bus. I'm beginning to lose the will to live with all this nonsense being written. Just have a bit more consideration for others and maybe, just maybe, people will give you some too. (Consideration that is).
59

fresian,

edinburgh 24/09/2008 16:29:46
59, you'll find it's the scheemies from Niddrie, Muirhouse, Bingham etc who get these monstrosities paid for them by state handouts, they are generally the ones who have no consideration or manners...dirty chav b17che5
60

natalie lynch,

edinburgh 24/09/2008 17:08:45
well well well
what can i say as a mother of 4 kids and i do use public transport(i.e)lrt
this pram thing is getting out of hand now not 1 person has made the point that a buggy and a pram are 2 different things
1. a pram is a for a new born and is not so easy 2 disasemble
2. a buggy can b folded in a min or 2 n that dont take up space
but when i was pregnant and had 2 very young kids with me i was told 2 stand by 2 old people because i was 2 young 2 be having children anyway(lol)with is a joke coming from a old person that prob got 20 brother's n sister(had no t.v's n there day)
i do think that if a wheelchair comes on u should either fold up ur buggy or if u have a pram get off but there is no need for people 2 be so rude about it!!!!!!!!!
61

kaz 1,

edinburgh 24/09/2008 17:24:33
i was really surprised by the negativity of all these comments. i am your average 30 ish mum with a small baby. I live in central edinburgh and do not have a car as parking would be a nightmare and too expensive. i am reliant on the busses. the type of pram that folds like the ones people assume you can just use, i can not as they do not provide enough head support for my baby, putting him at risk of shaken baby sindrome or damage to his developing spine. anyway you will find that these prams are for 6 months old and over only, for just this reason. i did not have a posh pram i had a hand me down and had to go and spend money to replace my perfectly good pram, just so i could use the public transport. and they are expensive, it was money that easily could have gone elsewhere considering electricity rises. i have a right to use the transport system, god knows i pay enough tax and have just as much right as the next person ( disabled or not)to use the bus. i am now being discriminated against. I have gotten off for a wheel chair and have no problem to continue to do so but would argue i as well have a right to use public transport. and just by the by have been refused and treated dreadfully by at least 3 bus drivers concerning this issue
62

Decent,

24/09/2008 17:48:09
#46 It's losing.
#52 Buses / pleasant.
#62 you are too young to have children when you are using that stupid text language.
#63 shaken bany syndrome (my a@%e from using a buggy!!!!)
63

babies-on-buses,

edinburgh 24/09/2008 17:58:56
KAZ 1 visit www.babies-on-buses.co.uk - Many people share your views - not all are as twisted as some who comment on this forum.
64

Bob 2,

24/09/2008 18:24:37
yawn
65

Weejockmcmad68,

24/09/2008 18:43:54
BORING!!!!!
66

Miss Scotland 1906,

24/09/2008 18:55:09
Kaz1 get a life and stop being so lazy.
When there is already a pram on the bus you need to fold it up so why not do it all the time.
How on earth did we get on in life before there was the new buses.
What would you do if you could only get 21 or any of the other number of bus that use the older buses.
67

Glenda,

blah 24/09/2008 19:27:08
Councillor Ian Perry should keep his neb out the proceedings.

We still remember him as the councillor who claimed £400,000 of council money for working at Stevenson College (when he didn't really). He was seconded (farmed himself out to another job) on a full-time basis to Wester Hailes Education and Training Managers’ Group and also claimed a full-time wage for working there!

see:

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Councillor-in-inquiry-over-undeclared.3588073.jp


http://www.edinburghsucks.com/2008/01/29/the-truth-behind-ian-perrys-%e2%82%a4400000/

A little bird tells me he may be under investigation again...........
68

Scotish Exile,

24/09/2008 19:48:18
""The policy is frankly unfair and discriminates against young parents." well buy a car!
69

Clen Peapus,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 20:02:06
#68 Miss Scotland 1906 - you really are a tedious, boring person of such minuscule mental aptitude that I am compelled to pity you. Your comments portray a very bitter individual, who is certainly lonely and who has probably not achieved anything noteworthy out of life so far. If you really are female you should pursue some male companionship, it may help improve your attitude. ;-)
70

Bob 2,

24/09/2008 20:19:50
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn
71

Tommy Tank,

Pretty, pretty central 24/09/2008 20:28:13
If more people wore their babies in slings this wouldn't be such a problem. Babywearing is practical, beneficial to the baby and the bond between mother/father and baby and becoming more fashionable (check out www.thebabywearer.com for more info).

But if you have to use a buggy, perhaps because you are going out for the day and need somewhere for the baby to sit/sleep etc., then I think it is only fair that you are allowed to take it, unfolded if space allows, on the bus. How many wheelchair users are there compared to pram users? It's ridiculous to save the space for someone in a wheelchair who probably won't turn up.

And if anyone has had to wake a baby to take it out of the buggy to fold it, then you know how much extra stress you're creating for yourself and the baby. Plus it takes up a lot of time.

Lothian Buses are really letting their users down if they're not allowing unfolded buggies and prams.

(Written by Tommy's Wife)
72

pofi,

24/09/2008 20:49:47
#37 is right. All who AGREE with the Pram Ban (and that is most definitely the majority of posters on this subject in recent months) send an email or letter to Lothian Buses, your local Councillor and your local MP. I've sent my email to Lothian Buses already supporting their actions. And I'm a mum who wasn't so lazy or spoilt that I demanded a space for an unfolded pram when my children were younger.
Can't believe the likes of #73- another wheelchair denier..!
73

Gina Gibson,

Wales 24/09/2008 21:48:13
To those of you who tell young mothers "Just push your pram home,"
why don't you say to wheelchair users:- "Just push your wheelchair home?"
74

Brodric,

24/09/2008 22:10:20
75 - Gina Gibson - you horrid wee nyaff.

There is no comparison at all here. Mums and babes have options and we are talking about a short period of discomfort. Wheelchairs are usually for life.
75

Yawn,

Edinburgh 24/09/2008 22:16:34
Is this a campaign being run by people with nothing better to do? Why do people even bother to read and comment? If parents had taken time to fold prams none of these problems would have occurred. Disabled people do not have any choice in the matter parents clearly do.
If the people running the campaign spent more time doing worthwhile things the country wouldn't be in the state it is. All I can say is wake up and get a life.
76

Julian.,

edinburgh 24/09/2008 22:36:27
Kaz1#63,

I think you'll find your claim that there are no foldable prams suitable for your baby is absolute rubbish. You can buy foldable prams which you can fit car seats on top. And don't tell me a newborn car seat would be unsuitable for your baby.


Anyway, if what you say is true, a letter of support from an expert in baby's health would be like gold dust to the anti-pram ban campaign. Unfotunately I doubt that letter would ever see the light of day.

As I've said before to all these selfish wingeing mums, shut up, put your hand in your pocket, pull out £30 and go and buy a foldable pram.
77

Crank Parent,

Livingston 24/09/2008 22:49:01
#63. Get a sling. I have six children, including one with special needs and another who is just 2 weeks old. I can't actually remember the last time I used a pram/pushchair. We've carried all our children in slings until they can walk themselves. People all over the world have been doing this for centuries. Prams/travel systems are a recent western invention and their over use has led to an increased incidence of flat head syndrome. In cultures where babies are carried this doesn't exist. Slings promote better bonding, higher IQ and leave your hands free for shopping, other children etc.

http://www.slingmeet.co.uk
78

Andanotherthing,

24/09/2008 22:52:38
This EEN story must be about to beat the record set by The Mousetrap, the Agatha Christie story, which has had over 23,000 repeat performances since its beginning.
79

Exiled Leither,

24/09/2008 22:56:13
I personnaly think this is one of the most disparing stories I have read here.
Not because of Lothian Buses policies or because of the Councillor acting like any other local politician and never giving up the chance of a photo call with a smiling baby, not even the evening news's sponsorship of the taleban mother and todlers group.
What really depresses me (and indeed those I speak to) is that there are people in this land who are so selfish and arrogant that they believe it is too much for them to use a foldiable appliance to cart their offspring about. As I understand it, nobody is banning babies from buses, nobody is banning buggies from buses, nobody is even saying that they must fold their buggy to get on the bus! all that is asked is that the buggy is foldable so that in the event that a wheelchair user has to get on the buggy can be folded to give up the space for them to board.
Is that really to much to ask?
I think not and I think that anyone who does should seriously think about whether they are suitable and mature enough to bring up a child as it is the parents who pass values on to their children.
I was taught to give up my seat for pensioners who needed them but now it seems that these people believe they have a right to use wheelchair spaces. i presume with that attitude they must also use disabled parking spaces at the shops as well? I wonder if they fold their buggies before getting into the car?
80

Crank Parent,

Livingston 24/09/2008 22:57:42
#78 Unfortunately, car seats and travel systems are not the answer as their over use has led to an increase in flat head syndrome. However, my suggestion of using a sling is just as cheap and even more practical.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/child_health/car-seats.html
81

Julian.,

edinburgh 24/09/2008 23:13:13
#82,

Slings are fine by me. Puts the final nail in the coffin of those mothers crying discrimination at not being allowed non-foldable buggies on board. Pack them off to Zimbabwe for a few weeks and then they'll maybe put the whole thing in perspective.

#81 Leither

Words of wisdom. You should write to some councillors
82

Matt there,

somewhere 24/09/2008 23:59:06
12 Irked. Your idea does not work.

My wife wanted to take an elderly friend to a hospital appointment. (Not in Edinburgh) The wheelchair spaces on THREE buses were filled with chavmums and their brat carts. And the drivers refused to let the wheelchair on because: "The space is taken."

Did the chavmums get off to allow the old lady to get on with her wheelchair? Of course not!
83

Andanotherthing,

25/09/2008 00:24:04
I know its yesterdays news now but,
Read
Evening News
The council has noted a recent Department of Transport statement which said the legislation allows the wheelchair space to be used by other users, but that it should be vacated when a wheelchair user requires it. This is the compromise that campaigners – and the Evening News – have been calling for in recent months.
ALSO
12 irked.
Folding a pram up isn't a particularly practical solution especially if you have other bags.
Theres your answer No 84. Once on the bus with a pram its a case of "We ain't moving"
What part of wheelchair spaces for wheelchair users don't these people understand.
84

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 25/09/2008 04:15:30
Dalian a city of over 6million with thousands of buses doesn't have prams on buses either.Multi-millions worldwide manage without prams on buses. Namby pamby Scotland can't seem to see the wood for the trees.Having a baby should not give young mothers the right to inconvenience others. THEY chose to have a baby!That includes all the inconvenience that goes with that decision. If the family unit were still to the fore in UK (fast dissappearing)then mothers could leave the child with parents,aunts,uncles etc when they go shopping.I jest of course. It would not allow them to show off their supadupa pram and all the whistles and bells.A collapsible push chair is more than enough to accomodate a baby and shopping.BAN PRAMS on BUSES.
85

Dragonhead,

Dalian,China 25/09/2008 04:17:53
..of course the selfish brainless young mothers would expect the disabled to have their wheelchairs folded and have them strap hanging I suppose? Selfish doesn't come close.
86

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 25/09/2008 04:21:52
Pram is short for perambulator which comes from thje Latin 'to walk' nae reference to omnibuses here.
87

Manu,

Edinburgh 25/09/2008 09:28:11
The majority of the features of transport and infrastructure all over the world have been designed by a man imagining himself negotiating the urban environment. This is why buses were not originally designed to carry prams.
This doesnt mean that buses shouldnt have been designed to carry prams. It is just that at the time it did not occur to them or that because it is a problem that mainly effects women it was not given enough consideration.
88

Manu,

25/09/2008 09:35:11
On the subject of slings- women may have been using them for centuries but they were not wearing them travelling on a vehicle moving at 30 mile per hour. A pram in this situation is much safer as a young baby would not be crushed between their mother and the seat in front should the bus come to a sudden halt. Even a due to a minor incident- a very young baby could be easily seriously injured or killed this way.
89

Linmal,

Livingston 25/09/2008 11:12:48
no more prams please - I mean no more talk of prams please or buses or trams as we are all going crazy just reading this nonsense
90

craig7653,

Port Seton 25/09/2008 11:43:25
Stand by your guns Lothian Buses. These people need to see that people are not going to bend over backwards to help people with kids etc. They have made their bed when they decided to get pregnant.........I am sick of people with kids expecting everyone else to help them along in life. I don't want kids myself and i don't want anyone elses kids either. NO PRAMS. SIMPLE. Deal with it.
91

Manu,

25/09/2008 15:10:03
You cannot just isolate yourself from the needs of society like that craig7653. We all need to be responsible for each other. You will be needing other peoples kids to help you along in life at some point, funding your care and pension when you reach your senior years.

If providing accessible transport for women makes their job less stressful and allows them more time to spend being good mothers to their children, I am all for prams on buses. It is the small contributions such as this that add up to children growing up to be good people and good citizens.
92

Clen Peapus,

Edinburgh 25/09/2008 17:18:14
#93 Manu. At last a sane voice of reason! I was pleased to read your rational and well balanced comments. A nice change from the usual detritus spewed here.
93

pofi,

25/09/2008 22:23:25
Oh rubbish #94. Do you not wonder why you and the likes of #93 are in so much of a minority?!
I am sure that craig7653 intends to fund his own care and pension through a working lifetime of taxation and paying National Insurance. As opposed to subsidising the non-working class with their benefits dependancy. There are generations of families who've never worked a day in their lives. And proud of it. Possibly closely related to some of the chavettes who refuse to shift their prams. Which is what this debate is all about.
I'm sure most women have the sense to use a foldable buggy- the only people to blame for transport being allegedly inaccessible are those who refuse to consider the simple option of buying a foldable buggy.

Re your post @ #71- that was a classic piece of spewed out detritus; there is absolutely no need to make a personal attack on someone whose views differ from yours.
Let's face it, you'd be on this forum all night having a go at the 90% of posters whose views oppose yours...!

And as for #90- the other main (but less well-publicised) reason for unfoldable prams being denied access to buses is because a baby in a carry cot type pram without any restraint would be extremely vulnerable in the event of a bus braking suddenly or in an accident.

Sad blokes, both of you.
94

Manu,

26/09/2008 12:19:45
Pofi what an angry bitter response to my comments. How unnecessary. Is it really that hard for you to have an intelligent debate without stooping to the prejudicial labelling of people.

I also think you show some naivety to how the taxation system works. They havent set up an account that has been ring fenced and that craig7653 will collect from when he turns 65 (if not later with the current aging population). These payments are decided on the financial year before and this depends on how many of our now children have donated their precious pounds to the government that year.

Also I was discussing the safety of a sling v pram. Not pram v buggy. A sling is more unsafe than a pram.

Finally I am not sure what led you to believe I am a bloke- I happen to be female.
95

RayJ,

26/09/2008 22:28:16
To all you nutters that say we all managed to do it before so why cant you now(Number 18 & 20). We have a son with special needs, and he could not walk very far when he was 3/4 years old. we had a large buggy(not a wheelchair a buggy) due to his age, so why cant drivers use discresion, because it took 2 people, 1 to hold my son and another to fold his buggy down. so wake up open your eyes and think about the bigger picture here. the world isn't perfect and straight forward.
96

Crank Parent,

Livingston 30/09/2008 13:48:58
#96 Man

"Also I was discussing the safety of a sling v pram. Not pram v buggy. A sling is more unsafe than a pram."

Really? Do you have evidence that this is the case? Perhaps you would like to share it with us?
97

Manu,

01/10/2008 17:35:41
#98 I am just relying on common sense. I wouldnt use a sling on public transport for the same reason I wouldnt wear one while I was driving.

A metal bar such as a the one on the back of a bus seat or a steering wheel, just inches away from a newborn babies head, with the added weight of a parents body, is more dangerous. In a minor collision, a pram would move forward and the baby would slide forward a few inches most likely unharmed . In the sling scenario the baby could easily be crushed by the whole weight of their parent.

Slings in their current form are a trend- they have been introduced on to the market in the last few years and have recently become more popular. They are fairly untested in modern life. Unfortunately it takes a death or very serious accident until a company would be obliged to stop advertising them as 'the perfect solution for public transport'. I personally prefer to think for myself and not believe everything a company is telling me in order to get me to give them £50 for what is basically strip of cloth.

By the way I have used a sling for my own baby and believe used with care they are great. I am not completely anti sling. But I just would not where one on a moving vehicle.
98

doris karloff,

10/10/2008 16:09:46
Is it just me or is anyone else sick of hearing from idignant parents who think the world revolves around them and chav, chavette junior??

I suppose its just a symptom of the times we live in where its always someone elses fault, Ban ALL prams otehr than folding ones I say!!
99

snoopy,

Edinburgh 17/11/2008 22:11:25
#63 If you live in CENTRAL Edinburgh surely you can walk most places even with a baby? Surely you can buy a sling or something?
100

Big bob 79,

21/11/2008 10:11:00
Follow Londons example get rid of most of the seats from the lower deck of buses to accomodate both prams and Wheel chairs. Force able bodied people up stairs and Single deck buses make able bodied people Stand....
London has been doing this for years and it works fine

 

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