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Disabled girl turned away by bus driver



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Published Date: 28 February 2008
A MOTHER who was told there was no room on the bus for her disabled daughter has hit out at operator Lothian Buses.
Fiona Pickup was furious when she could not take her five-year-old daughter Emma Dobbin on the bus, because there was a child's buggy in the wheelchair space.

Ms Pickup, 27, now plans to raise the issue with the Scottish Parliament, saying there
should be clearer rules about wheelchair access on buses.

Emma suffers from cerebral palsy and has been in a wheelchair for two years. The space on the 22 bus is designated for wheelchair use, but is often used by parents with children in buggies.

Ms Pickup, of Leith, said when she tried to board the bus from Ocean Terminal on Saturday there was a woman with a buggy taking up the wheelchair space. She claimed the driver did not ask the woman to fold up the pushchair, but simply said she would have to wait for the next bus.

The helpdesk consultant said when she phoned to complain she was told the driver was not able to move people from the space.

She now plans to write to the First Minister asking for the issue to be looked at.

"I was just so angry with the bus driver because of his attitude," she said. "I thought these spaces were meant to be for wheelchair users, and I can't see why the woman couldn't fold up the buggy so my daughter could get on the bus.

"All I keep thinking about is what if my daughter was an adult and travelling on her own and the bus driver told her she wasn't getting on. If it was the last bus home would he have left her sitting there on her own?"

A spokesman for Lothian Buses said they had not received any complaint, but insisted its drivers were instructed to accommodate both wheelchair and pushchair users wherever possible.

"Drivers will allow wheelchair users to board a bus if there is an unoccupied wheelchair space and in doing so the maximum seating or standing capacity is not exceeded," he said. "If the space is occupied, it can only be vacated if there is available capacity, or if a buggy can be folded easily and space is available for its storage and the safe passage of its occupant."

He added that such incidents highlighted the need for passengers to co-operate with drivers to make wheelchair space available.

This is an issue being raised by disabled rights charity Ecas.

Sam Condry, research and campaigning officer at Ecas, said: "There should always be ample space on buses for pushchairs and wheelchairs. If there is room on the bus, priority wheelchair spaces should be vacated for those in wheelchairs."





The full article contains 468 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 February 2008 10:27 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Nell,

The Preservation Hall 28/02/2008 11:24:37
The person who had the buggy there should have got off their ar5e and folded it up. Yet another example of people with no respect for others.
2

,

28/02/2008 11:26:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

an interested party,

28/02/2008 11:31:56
a couple to many 'what ifs' in this article

what if she had been an adult
what if she had been travelling alone
what if it was the last bus

it was not any of these
the space was occupied and it would appear it is not the drivers job to enforce such things

what if it was another wheel chair?
what if she waited for the next most frequent bus in the toon
what if the bus was full, as happens, then nobody gets on

yes i do fully agree that being disabled makes travelling extra difficult and i feel for the mother and daughter but there is only so much provision that can be made and in this case it showed up a flaw in that provision

public transport is not the most reliable form of transport but suffices 99.9999999999999999% of the time
4

jimbob2402,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 11:59:32
Still does not matter as on the instance the person should have moved as this was a wheelchair user. Have people no decency any more. Its not too hard to collapse a buggy.
5

Chris,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 12:08:57
Agreed, the 'what if?' is irrelevant, and yes, if there isn't room on the bus, then there isn't room. However, if the space is designated for wheelchair use, then the driver should be given the responsibility for ensuring that it can be used for that purpose. However the suggestion that Edinburghers co-operate with the drivers is pure fantasy. It is on the buses that you can meet some of the most selfish people in the city.
6

lavvyhead,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 12:13:31
Everybody has forgotten the most important tool here especially the driver, who I find sometimes are encased in their tomb of a cab and refuse to do anything..... its called communication, Why did the driver not ask the woman to fold her pushchair? Why did the driver not try and resolve the situation? He is in charge of the bus its passengers and their safety. Would appear as soon as he puts on the uniform he becomes a jobsworth. Not my job luv, can't move people, not my job. Communication, resolution and just plain common bl**dy sense
7

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/02/2008 12:23:57
when LRT made the decision to allow prams and buggys on buses without being folded, was the worst, in my opinion, decision to make.

Why should I move from the space quite clearly marked "Wheelchar users" for a person with a buggy/pram.

The comment regarding the driver not being able to move people from the space is rubbish. I have been moved several times from that space to allow a buggy/pram to board the bus - even when the bus is full to capacity and there is no more standing room!!

It's about time LRT removed the right to allow buggies and prams on the buses and this would save this happening time and time again.

Let the lazy lot with buggies/prams who take the bus walk. I never had the luxury of using a bus when my children were in buggies/prams no matter what the circumstances. It was walk, or nothing - which is the way it should be!
8

The Judge,

28/02/2008 12:26:11
There is no point in contacting LRT with any complaint about a driver or a bus service. They really don't care.

The owner of the pushchair could have folded it up and made room for the girl in the wheelchair but thats society for you. Me first everybody else second is most peoples attitude these days.

#7 Hits the nail on the head, most drivers don't care and are only interested in an easy life.
9

Finbarr Saunders,

28/02/2008 12:27:42
#3 - an interested party - I totally agree.

Much as I hate bus drivers, you can hardly blame the driver here.
10

Sarcasm,

28/02/2008 12:33:40
Look it was a number 22, another two probably passed whilst the mother was trying to get things sorted.
11

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 12:42:36
i have driven for over 30 years as a bus/coach driver and had the total misfortune to work with lothian buses at marine garage many years ago and my time there lasted only 1 year. their policies towards drivers change like the weather,but...read the sign attatched to the window on the "low access for disabled friendly buses!" its says clearly that it is for people with wheelchairs (wheelchair users).what did the people with young children do before the introduction of the "easy access" buses.they had no option, the buggy was folded, and most sensible parents had to foresight to have the task done before the bus arrived at the stop. most if not all drivers waited on the parent getting the shopping and the child on the bus. it worked a wee treat. and back then you looked out the window of your nice warm bus and saw a person in a wheelchair pushing themselves along to the local shop in the pouring rain. lets get real.young people today are lazy gits and have an attitude problem. the space is for wheelchair users,priority surely!they have no choice,a pushchair is manufactured to be folded for travelling convenience eh? does anyone remember the saying."common sense"?
12

dangerousdave,

Perth 28/02/2008 12:45:39
Remember being on buses more than 10 years ago? They all had steps and no spaces for buggies or wheelchairs. Some people take this for granted as normal these days.

Dangerous
13

Mr Crisps,

Musselburgh 28/02/2008 12:47:06
So potentially the driver should have asked a mother (possibly with other kids) to eject her (maybe sleeping) infant from their buggy, fold it while looking after her family, then stand with a baby and maybe other kids?

Don't make judgements based on sketchy facts. Storm in a teacup.
14

Jock McSpock,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 12:47:43
The disabled person should have had priority, even if this involves the buggy being displaced (folded, or asked to leave the bus).

Babies don't *need* to be transported in buggies. Some disabled people *need* to be in a wheelchair to get around.
15

A Leither,

28/02/2008 12:48:06
I've been on plenty of 22 buses where the driver has asked buggy-owners or people standing in the wheelchair bay to move out to let a wheelchair on. If there's already a buggy in the space and another buggy wants on, the drivers usually tell them they can get on if they'll fold their buggy up.

22 drivers are, in my experience, pretty decent ladies & gents and I've been using the bus since it came into operation.

The biggest pain on 22s are the idiots who get on and then stand around in a crush at the front of the bus whilst there are seats still available. It's a nightmare for anyone else trying to get on or off. Even worse is when the driver keeps asking folks to move up the bus to take up the empty space and make room, and no-one pays the slightest attention. The level of ignorance and selfishness these days is unbelievable.
16

Miss S,

leith 28/02/2008 12:55:30
Dont think i'd like to be standing with a baby on the 22. Its hard enough standing with 2 hands on poles with the way the drivers slam the breaks on every 2 seconds and take corners like waltzers.
17

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:09:01
It is a wheelchair space, not a space for lazy parents who cannot be bothered to fold their buggies. The mother had a choice whether or not to have the baby, along with all the restrictions that entails - you cannot say the same for a disabled person.
18

Buggy Pusher,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:09:09
The woman was waiting on a 22, I'm sure if she couldnt get on she could have waited the extra 2 - 3 mins on the next one.

If you have a young sleeping child in a buggy who cannot walk is it very safe to remove them and have to hold them on a moving bus?

The buggys mother\father had paid there fare and are entitled to remain in the space.

Disabled people should not get priority over the space, they always state they want treated as "normal" people, well if thats the case if the space is occupied then they wait on the next bus that has an available space
19

Edin,

28/02/2008 13:19:30
3 an interested party, and 4.. Edinburgh has shocking public transport and Rarely suffices 99.9999999999999999% of the time!! What must the girl think if someone says no ther is no room for you in here. The inconsiderate mother with the buggie should have offered to fold her pushchair...or acknowledge to the woman that she couldnt for whatever reason. the driver should have at least tried tohelp in some way.

Mr Crisps, yes thats exactly what she should have done.. you got it in one !
20

Josie,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:19:37
The lady with the pushchair could have been waiting a long time to get on the bus with her pushchair, I have often stood at the top of Leith Walk & watched 5 or 6 22's go past before I could get on with my buggy. If she had been standing for ages in the cold with a hungry/tired baby then why should she get off? Why is it automatically assumed that she is being selfish? Buggy's are not easy to fold & not everywhere in Edinburgh is within walking distance. It's not up to the driver to ask the mother to move either. What does he do? Ask someone to move & they say no is he then to throw a mother & child off the bus? That would be the headline in the news next again day I can bet you! Yes wheelchairs should get proirty in an ideal world but you've got to look at the bigger picture.
21

Mark C,

Morningside 28/02/2008 13:28:53
I don't see the point in pointing fingers at the bus driver to be honest as he's in a bit of a no-win situation. If he had told the pushchair user to vacate the bus we'd probably have an identical article with the headline "Mother with young child forced to leave bus". Both demographics expect the general public to do their bidding when they snap their fingers (although in my experience parents are the worse culprits).

Also as has already been pointed out, it's not as if 22's are rare.

On a related note though, I wonder if the current fashion for huge pushchairs that resemble 4x4s has made it difficult/ impossible to fold them up? You don't need something with the footprint of a Smart car and disc brakes that are better than the ones on my mountain bike to ferry your children around!
22

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 13:29:10
Like whats said before, the #22 comes every few mins. Big deal if there were a buggy or that in there. the #22 is the only bus that runs about 100,000 per hour
23

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/02/2008 13:29:34
anyone who posts a comment defending buggy pushers over disabled wheelchair users obviously have no heart!

How can you compare a pram pusher to someone who HAS to use a wheelchair - disgusting
all you lazy mummies and daddies out there chose to have the babies - at least you had the choice?

The wheelchair user could have been waiting just as long and may also have had to wait until several buses passed before they could board. Surely somewhere in your deep selfish minds - you can see that you should have given up the space

I think LRT should abolish all prams/buggies on their buses.

Mind you the one that stinks is when a buggy pusher puts the buggy into the space, which someone has had to give up - then takes the child out of the buggy and leaves an empty buggy sitting in the space!!!! that's happened to me before so, yes I am more than a little bitter.
24

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 13:30:21
Seems to be just another Evening News nonsense story designed to raise the hackles and improve sales. And they carefully fail to give us the whole story, so we end up concocting various condemnations based on half truths. What a way to make a living.
25

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:36:18
#20
get real eh!
a sleeping baby...hmmmmm i had three sons,who did sleep as well...i managed perfectly well....babies do have a tendancy to sleep through quite a lot. but to take up your stupid point! you CAN lift YOUR child, please tell me how a mother can lift a disabled person, probably an adult, and are you so medically educated that you can tell what is wrong with that person, meaning that disabled person might need transportation fo many reason.buggies? can be folded easily,babys treated properly will keep calm etc.buggy pushers are usually going for jaunts or shopping, correct? so what you are saying is that disabled people do not have that right above you?
ma a*se.stop being damn lazy and using trivial excuses...you can do something to elliviate the situ,disabled people unfortunately cant. no contest!
26

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 13:37:20
I am a pretty frequent user of the 22 and also in a wheelchair. I agree with the earlier comment that this is a storm in a tea cup. It's the 22 for god's sake which everyone knows runs every few minutes. Who of us in this life are too busy or important that we can't wait a few minutes for the next bus?

I for one am grateful that we now have a service like the 22, a massive change from 30 years ago when travel by public transport in a wheelchair was challenging to say the least.

27

jimbob2402,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:38:08
People should be ashamed of themselves if they think a collapsible buggy should take priority over someone in a wheelchair. Some posts keep saying it’s the number 22 and they are regular, surely this is not the point. Get a grip!
28

,

28/02/2008 13:39:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Mark C,

28/02/2008 13:39:58
#26

Children, the disabled and the eldery are in my opinion 3 very good reasons not to use public transport :-)
30

Big Smoke,

28/02/2008 13:40:39
I hate all this 'I'm disabled I must get priority' then it's the same folk that fight for eqaulity! As has been said the 22 comes every 2-3 minutes get over it! or get a wheelchair with a engine!
31

Edin,

28/02/2008 13:44:35
forgetthis story ..
read this


http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/features/She-occupies-a-special-place.3824564.jp#2533477
32

Jingle,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:45:14
God you lot - without 'mummies and daddies', 'selfish parents' etc, where would you lot be??!!! Have a b****y heart
33

Dave1875,

28/02/2008 13:46:33
Lemme get this straight: the mother with the buggy needs it to get her child around as the child can't walk; the other daughter needs her wheelchair as she is also unable to get around.

Why is the wheelchair user more equal than the child that needs the buggy?
34

big man,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:49:25
As a Bus Driver with LRT and looking at what has been written, i can see this as a storm in a teacup, yes i agree buggies should be banned as it causes friction especially when there taking up space for disabled person using a wheelchair, if the person with a buggy in that space for disabled is asked to fold up there buggy to make room, most oblige, but there are the certain few who say NO, and if they say no !, they can't be forced out of that space, then our hands are tied, the 22 is the most frequent service there is, am quite sure the person didn't have much time to wait for another 22, so don't always put the blame on drivers, even at rush hours it's hard to accomade people especially when there standing, ave been doing buses since i was 18 and have never come across a city where some people are so ignorant towards bus drivers, we do a hard job, if you dont like us, why not go one better and join us, see what life is like from the other side of the coin, there is decent people in Edinburgh and they have got the best service in Britain, go elsewhere and then you could really moan about lack of services, wait till the trams come, god help us then.
35

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 13:49:25
#33 LOL you do have a point though. Be it a disabled person in a wheelchair, child in a buggy or a marathon runner - people are always saying (esp disabled people) that they should have EQUAL RIGHTS - and now they have them and are moaning about not getting on a bus that comes every 3 seconds.

As oor somebody else who said that they might have been waiting longer - they were at ocean terminal which is the 1st stop so if they had av been, the buggy would have been behind them in the queue - also, there are about 3 #22s that sit there at the terminous at each time
36

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:49:37
These petty rules are what put people off using public transport. there is plenty of room on a bus for a wheelchair AND a buggy. A wheelchair and SEVERAL buggies to be exact.

This is yet another example of mindless "health and safety" in action.

I do however agree that given the current daft situation, the buggy owner should have folded her buggy up. Maybe she didn't notice the wheelchair and was not asked by the driver in which case it's not really her fault.
37

Mark C,

28/02/2008 13:49:40
#37 indeed, I think the only way to settle this is via some form of deathmatch between a wheelchair user and a "Buggaboo"

Activate!
38

blackpoppy,

east lothian 28/02/2008 13:55:33
These areas on buses are designated for wheel chair users and I am pretty certain it does state that if required the space has 2 be given up. I must say mothers have it so bloomin easy nowadays, They dont know wat its like to fold a buggy and juggle a baby at same time. They just walk on bus without any hassles. Its more common curtesy to give up the area for a disable person anyways, just sheer ignorance on the woman with the baby.Shame on her
39

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 13:56:51
#28 I have 3 kids all under 3. 2 in a buggy and one walking, are you trying to suggest i hold all 3 off them on my own while trying to fold a buggy? And who is going to take responsibility if an accident happens to one of the kids whilst out of the saftey off the buggy?


Who ever is in the Q first has priority just like it is when non didabled people queue for a bus.

people with buggies dont ask people with wheelchairs to fold them so why should we be required to move?

Disabled people have many other means off free or reduced transport (taxi card, free parking practically any where)

also I bet this is the fist time she has been turned away from a bus. Is it such a great hardship for her to wait on the next bus? I think you will find the answer to that would be NO.






40

Baroness Fortitude III,

28/02/2008 13:58:08
Fiona Pickup and her five-year-old daughter Emma Dobbin.

Made up names. This whole incident never happened.

41

,

28/02/2008 14:00:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

The Judge,

28/02/2008 14:05:50
#43 Maybe you should have though of your transport situation before popping out 3 kids.

You have a choice the person in a wheelchair has no choice. You are obviously one of those people who thinks the world revolves around your own @rse. Just for half a second put yourself in the position of the disabled person before spouting your crap.
43

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 14:12:50
#47 I have though my transport situation I can either go on the bus in the buggy space or in a car.

The disabled person has the same choices they should NOT be given priority over me.

If the person is so disabled that thay cant wait for a bus maybe they should look for other transport means.

If i got on a bus without kids and there was no seat and i asked you to move cos i wanted a seat would you? I guess the answer would be no.

Why should we treat disabled people like royalty they are humans tthe same as you and me so therfore they should not get special treatment.
44

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 14:27:06
#48 Calm down dear, it's only another non-story from the EEN.

I think you will find that most of us "wheelies" don't expect to be treated like royalty in preference to you "walkies".

Don't get so het up. I will keep my eye open for you on the 22. If I see anyone with a slightly crazed glint in their eye dragging 3 sprogs along I will gladly hop off the bus and give you my space. My personal hate is having to sit next to 3 kids of that age.

Is that OK? Are we allowed to have our prejudices too?
45

Iain Bhern,

28/02/2008 14:30:00
Here's a what if for you. What if the mother with the buggy was disabled. Just because someone doesn't look disabled does not mean they don't have a disability. Remember that before you go making complaints Mrs Dobbin!
46

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 14:30:28
I am shocked that some people think disabled folk shouldn't be given priority on certain issues. They ain't asking to be treated like royalty like you so put it "BUGGY PUSHER" but you come into my shoes for a week and see how you can manage with a wheelchair and bags of shopping and everything else I need to do.

You have no idea how difficult it is for disabled folk, they have to fight for everything even a space on public transport. This maybe no big issue to you folk but I am sorry it is for me.

My whole letter was not printed in the Evening News but I so wish it was.

Yeah maybe there is a but to many "if's" in my article but so what this needs to be sorted out now. How would you feel if the next time you opened this paper and saw that an adult in a wheelchair had been left by the last bus and they had been raped or something? I would feel terrible as I would think that could have been my daughter.

When my daughter was in a buggy before she got her wheelchair I got told to move not asked. I do not have a choice I need to use public transport.




47

farepak customer,

28/02/2008 14:32:24
anyone stopped to think what if it had been a disabled child in one of those disabled buggies then what would have happened???
sorry its another "what if" but........
48

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 14:34:29
Iain Bhern. I am not stupid I know when someone is disabled or not and I can assure you this person was not OK. She wasn't even on her own she was with folk so before you start saying things like that maybe you should get your facts right about what was saw/said OK. I will be happy to post the whole letter I sent to the Evening News in hope that it will shut up all those people out there who think they are better that disabled folk.
49

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 14:37:18
#51 Tell me WHY you should get priority? why should you not have to wait on the next bus? why should disabled people park there cars on double yellows and get away with it.

You should be treated as equals and if that means waiting for something so be it.
50

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 14:38:15
As previously said in my last comment I made, when my daughter was in her kick-up buggy we got told to move not asked. I could have turned round and said no I ain't moving but I didn't I had someone to help me like she did that day and she still didn't move. I know when a child is disabled or not as I see enough disabled children and can assure you this child was not.
51

Iain Bhern,

28/02/2008 14:39:47
Mother Of Child Turned away you are completely missing the point. I look perfectly normal to most people BUT I am disabled. You cannot know someone suffers from a dibilitating disease just by looking at them. Further I would be delighted if you would post the entire letter on this forum, you may have to split it in to more than one post though. After we have read your un-editted version we can then perhaps have a reasoned debate.
52

Iain Bhern,

28/02/2008 14:44:39
#55, "why should disabled people park there cars on double yellows and get away with it."

Because some people are unable to walk more than a few yards, some cannot walk at all. Why should they be deprived of access to all the same shops and facilities that you enjoy? Don't kid yourself, if you were in their position you would shout just as loudly for your rights!
53

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 14:56:32
#51 It's great that you have actually taken time to join in the discussion. I think perhaps you see a lot of these comments as personal attacks, which I am sure they are not. I'm afraid that the only reason your story is in the paper is that it will sell newspapers and get comments flowing. That is also the reason why it has been only partially reported.

Can I ask, though: assuming that the parent with the buggy had been unable, for whatever reason, to fold it up (say there was already a folded buggy on the rack, or it was a double buggy and the parent had other children), would you seriously have insisted that they get off the bus in favour of you and your daughter?

Given that it wasn't the last bus, and the 22 is extremely frequent, would you not have simply waited for the next bus?
54

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 15:01:22
#58

The highway code rule 242 states

You MUST NOT leave your vehicle or trailer in a dangerous position or where it causes any unnecessary obstruction of the road. yet disabled people break this rule all the time without getting any kind of fine do you think this is right.

There are disabled spaces allowing you to access the same shops as able bodied people. USE THEM.
55

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/02/2008 15:08:08
BUGGY PUSHER - you are a disgrace - the whole point here is that YOU HAD/HAVE THE CHOICE TO HAVE 3 CHILDREN UNDER 3 -
I don't think a disabled person has the choice!

It's parents with your attitude that makes the younger generation what they are today, lack of respect for anyone or anything - I pity our society when your three children reach the age where they can open their mouths as wide as yours and have a selfish attitude!

Mother of Child Turned away - my heart does out to you. I hope you do not meet any more imbeciles on your journeys... I don't imagine for one minute you would have asked the person on the bus with the buggy to move.

Let's hope there are more courteous people around in this world and less BUGGY PUSHERS !
56

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 15:14:28
#62 You're hardly in a position to lecture people about their attitude.

Having 3 children under 3 is a perfectly valid choice. It shouldn't be grounds for criticism of someone whose circumstances you are completely unaware of.
57

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 15:16:36
#61 You're not for calming down are you?

Blue badge holders are not allowed to park on double yellows or single yellows with side bars on the pavement.

I have had loads of tickets for being badly parked, wheels over the line and stuff like that and I don't even have the excuse of being a bird.

You are going off the deep end unneccessarily and taking the debate into areas it doesn't need to go.

If the mum in question feels that someone should give up their space or even have to get off the bus then that is up to her but I fear she is going to have to write a lot of letters in her life if not getting on one 22 is giving her grief. But that is her choice.

But no need to go off on a random and ill informed rant on what is and is not available to folk with disabilities.

Have a nice day!
58

Angus R,

28/02/2008 15:17:32
#62 What if she had triplets? Are you suggesting she gives 1 or 2 away?

I think the funniest folk are the ones that park in supermarket - mother and child pays and they have a teenager with them!!
59

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/02/2008 15:26:12
Mums with kids have only recently been given the right to travel on buses with their children in buggys. Quite frankly this is a privilege and should be treated as such. Why shouldnt parents with buggies/.prams walk. I had to when I had mine while juggling shopping, school runs, etc. No cars for me as we couldn't afford it.
My mother also had to with 4 children under 6 - she wouldn't have even though about trying to get on the bus!
Rest assured though if I was in that situation where I as taking the space specifically designed for disabled - I would have insisted, I moved and gave up the space - even if it meant getting a different bus.

It doesnt matter how many children she has - its the fact that if you have children YOU HAVE THE CHOICE!

a disabled person has no CHOICE!

that's all I was trying to say

60

onlooker123,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 15:29:06
it could be lothian buses to 'blame' here if you can call it blame, when my sister ws on the bus with her new born recently a wheelchair user commented to the bus driver that my sister would have to move (my sister couldn't fold the pram, a fairly big one) whilst holding the baby, to which the wheelchair user then said my sister would have to get off,
the bus drivers response was that the spaces are now for wheelchairs and prams alike, and therefore first come first served, the wheelchair user would have to wait for the next one,
need less to say my sister wasn't asked to move, (but i believe she like me, would have folded the pram had the baby been bigger and the pram easy to fold and put away)

mabye lothian buses should make this policy clearer, and its not fair to bad mouth everyone with prams/buggys, we're not all selfish and disrespectful

and to everyone who say people choose to have babys - does the baby choose to need a pram????
61

Mark C,

28/02/2008 15:30:46
The whole "she chose to have 3 kids" is a straw man anyway as by the same token you could argue (equally wrongly) that having a disabled child is a lifestyle choice.

For what it's worth I think there must be a "selfish" switch that gets toggled in your brain as soon as you reproduce as parents (particularly those of young children) are quite possibly the most selfish people known to man. Respect is a 2-way thing, remember that the next time you're running people off the pavement with your huge 3-wheeled pushchair/SUV!
62

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 15:31:53
# 62 yes i did have the choice to have those children. I do believe it is a very legal and personal choice being that we dont live in china. I chose to have those children just like i chose to take them out on pulic transport if there is a space on the bus for us. I dont have a lack of repact for people, as previously stated i believe as common courtesy the person first in the q would have been entitled to the seat i am not looking for priority because i have 3 small children nor do i think the disabled person should have had priority over the space if they were not before the lady with the buggy in the q
63

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 15:35:01
#68 I see, your bitterness is essentially based on the fact that things were different when you had your children. Well perhaps it's you that needs to deal with that, not the young parents who you denigrate so unfairly.
64

rock on jonny,

28/02/2008 15:35:16
ABSOLUTELY TYPICAL,lots of common sense regarding a serious issue,no contributions fromVOLTAIRE OR PATERSON
65

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 15:35:18
# 63, i didnt say the disabled shouldn't have access to the shops I just said they shouldn't be allowed ( as is seen many a time) to break the law to do so, and furthermore, yes, not all disabled people are 'wheelies' just as not all buggy pushers are unable or unwilling to fold their buggys.
66

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 15:41:41
Yeah maybe this was a number 22 this time but it could have been a bus that wasn't due for another half an hour to an hour. Buggies have the choice they can fold up, wheelchair user don't have the choice, sorry.

My daughter doesn't want to be treated any different from other folk but at the end of the day when it comes to independent traveling for wheelchair users I think it is terrible. There is plenty spaces on buses that are marked for elderly/disabled folk but not for a wheelchair space.

If this ever happens to me again then I am sorry but I will not be moving. The inspector/police whoever can come but I will not be moving.

Do you all want to see the letter I wrote? Well here you all go. I am appalled with peoples comments that do not see there being anything wrong in this and thank the people who see my point of view.

As for the person who said they feel sorry for me, DONT. I am a working parent who looks after my daughter after working a full day. I pay taxes, probably unlike most people so why should I not have my say.

On Saturday 16 February at approximately 16:46 at the
Ocean Terminal I attempted to get on a number 22 bus
with my disabled daughter who is in a wheelchair.

The driver who I can only explain as the rudest person
I have came across in a long time (that is being nice)
said I was not getting on the bus with the wheelchair
as there was a buggy on, wait for it, not with a baby
but with a toddler in it.

He did not attempt to ask the couple with the buggy to
fold it, even though he said he did but I for one am
not deaf and know for a fact he made no attempt to ask
them to fold it and I was just not getting on the bus
with the wheelchair and I was to wait for the next
bus.

All I keep thinking about is what if my daughter was
an adult and travelling on her own and the bus driver
told her she wasn’t getting on, how do you think she
would have felt. Or if it was the last bus home would
he have left
67

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 15:49:01
Continue on from previous comment ; - Hope it all fits in this time.

sitting there on her own in the dark,
not acceptable.

I understand now from talking to someone at the
service desk of Lothian Regional Transport that the
drivers have no powers to remove buggies. I am sorry
but if a bus has a wheelchair sign on the bus reading
MUST BE VACATED FOR A WHEELCHAIR USER then that to me
says it all, it’s for a wheelchair and not for
buggies,a misleading statement quite clearly.

I wonder how many other folk this has happened too? I
think it’s about time the government and the bus
company changed this and made it legislation that the
spaces on a bus are for wheelchair users or otherwise
the sign gets changed.

99% of people would probably move for a wheelchair but
this couple, you know who you are, did not and all I
can say is shame on you and the same to everyone on
the bus that did not even come forward that day.

Everyone I have spoken to are under the impression
that the space is for a wheelchair user and that it’s
a legal requirement that buses have spaces for
wheelchairs but if drivers cannot enforce buggies to
move from the space then what is the point in having
the space in the first place. Even on the Lothian
Buses website it says it’s for a wheelchair user but
does not state that drivers cannot enforce buggies to
move.

Due to what happened on Saturday it makes me no longer
want to travel on public transport in-case the same
thing happens again. I depend on public transport to
get from A to B with my daughter.

I would urge anyone who has experienced what I have
experienced to come forward, don’t keep it quiet. I
for one am writing to my MP and Alex Salmond to say
how appalled I was at that bus driver and indeed the
couple who refused to vacate the supposed wheelchair
place.

HAS YOUR BUS DRIVER GONE THE EXTRA MILE TO HELP? NO
68

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 15:52:53
I want folk with buggies to not see the bad in people in wheelchairs they just want to go about their lives like everyone else.

There is clearly in my view enough space for a wheelchair and a buggy on buses so I think maybe Lothian Buses should look into asking the bus driver in a situation like this to remove himself from his little box, help the mother, father, whoever it maybe with the buggy, to fold it so that both parties are safe.

You have probably seen the advert on the buses has your driver went the extra mile. If they want rewarded then maybe they should consider doing this.
69

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 15:52:54
#76 If the 22 winds you up then don't bother flying with BA or you'll end up in a loony bin.

Access to public transport is getting better all the time.

Just to finish, you were looking to get on a 22 in the afternoon not some other less frequent service. If my auntie had b**** sh'd be my uncle!
70

nicnat,

midlothian 28/02/2008 16:01:13
I have 3 kids, 1 who is in a buggy and i use the buses frequentley with my dughter in her buggy but i ould NEVER NOT dismantle my buggy for a wheelchair user. It clearly states the space is there for wheelchair users, ( great thing the buses have introduced to given wheelchair users more independence) and if u decide to put ur buggy in there, u should at least have the manners to remove it should a wheelchair user need to board the bus. I have been on the bus once when this happened to someone in a wheelchir and there was another buggy on the bus and i couldnt believe the buggy owner wouldnt fold her buggy. I agree that it isnt the drivers responsibility but more people should b understanding to this matter...............i certainly am. I will struggle with a buggy, shopping and my 3 kids on a bus should it mean i can give up the space to someone who really needs it.....
71

KatieW,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:04:18
I have to laugh at the comments on this forum. Most of the negative comments towards people with pushchairs coming from men - typical. The views expressed here remind me exactly why even now my daughter is 2 and a half I would rather walk than get on a bus with a buggy and have done so since she was born because of the attitude of some of the inconsiderate people that use public transport. I have an eye disability and will never be able to drive which means I had no option but to rely on public transport and I can tell you it is an absolute nightmare getting on and off buses with a child and whatever else I might have needed to take with me. If the people who disagree with buggies being able to get on buses would actually help instead of watching parents struggle then there would be no problem in vacating the space when a wheelchair needs on the bus.
72

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:06:57
It is not that straightforward! My daughter is in a pushchair but has a problem with her legs and cannot stand up. She is very lively and there is no way on earth to hold her and fold a buggy. I cant put her on the floor of the bus as she would be off all over the place. However I always get off the bus to let a wheelchair user on as its not their problem I can't fold my buggy. I feel the attitude towards buggy users on buses is outrageous though, the drivers are hostile and lots of the passengers. Are we supposed to keep our kids home until they can walk? And I also think this is a ridiculous news story given that the 22 bus is every two minutes, frankly I think the mother of the girl in the wheelchair should have better things to do with her time than writing to the Evening News about it.
73

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 16:10:58
#76 One of the problems here is that the situation that the bus driver was dealing with was not the situation that you posit in your worst case scenario. I am reasonably sure that had it been an infrequent service, rather than one that runs every five minutes; had it been late at night, rather than mid-afternoon; had it been raining or an isolated spot, rather than dry and near warm shelter; then the bus driver might well have taken a different decision. I don't think it is fair to judge him or her by what seems to have been a pragmatic decision in the circumstances.

Incidentally, how long did you have to wait for another 22 and what happened on that one?
74

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:11:10
38 - I am appalled that as a bus driver you would post that buggies should be banned from buses. I suppose that explains the awful attitude mothers get from 80% of bus drivers though, just for availing themselves of something that makes their lives easier *rolls eyes*
75

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:14:39
You do have to blame the driver a bit. I was on the bus with buggy once and I had a sprained knee. Someone wanted on with a wheelchair and the driver asked me "Are you ABLE to fold your buggy". I said no, and was preparing to move the buggy over to the other side as I thought he was letting us both on. He then told the person with the wheelchair that they couldn't get on and drove off. I was mortified and everyone on the bus was giving me dirty looks and muttering. If I had known it was me or the wheelchair I would have got off!
76

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 16:20:00
#51 "I do not have a choice I need to use public transport. " but you do have a choice. Car, taxi, walk.... more than just "the bus" - but why all this whole fuss over a #22 when one comes along "in just a minute"
77

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:22:20
Last post from me, honestly!
If you are surprised at Lothian buses refusal to take your complaint seriously re this, my daughter and I were almost killed by a bus driver who ploughed through a red light at a pedestrian crossing and I got nothing but the most offhand perfunctory reply and nothing was done. Maybe they would be glad of one less mother with a buggy on their buses though!
78

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:22:39
Last post from me, honestly!
If you are surprised at Lothian buses refusal to take your complaint seriously re this, my daughter and I were almost killed by a bus driver who ploughed through a red light at a pedestrian crossing and I got nothing but the most offhand perfunctory reply and nothing was done. Maybe they would be glad of one less mother with a buggy on their buses though!
79

Mark C,

28/02/2008 16:22:42
#86, was the bus a Number 22 by any chance?
80

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:23:05
*blush* Goes to make a cup of tea
81

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 16:23:48
#76 "My daughter doesn't want to be treated any different from other folk" sorry but you just said it yourself - she does not wish to be treated any different, which means, you will wait your turn in the queue to get on a bus that you can get on.

My posts might sound non sympathetic, on the contry, i do understand you need to get on a bus but with the #22 being every few mins i fail to see the problem.

What if this was say for example the #16 which as far as ive seen only runs the old style buses and no ramps?

How long did you have to wait on the #22 to get on anyway?
82

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:28:44
MarkC - sadly it was a 24 which made me even more embarrassed and the very Devil in the eyes of the other passengers. I am surprised the wheelchair user did not take me to the Supreme Court of Human Rights!
83

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 16:31:08
#93 then you could say you had rights too ;) - though, those people who decided to be bitchy, i'd forget about them - they dont knowyou :)
84

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:32:50
True - people think you miraculously become deaf when you have a buggy so can't hear their bitchy comments. I am not deaf but I do find I am very uncoordinated near them and just happen to run into their ankles *hehe*
85

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 16:33:17
#88 One tried to get me on York Place a couple of years ago. Fortunately I saw it and stepped back (the green man was lit solid and the red light for traffic was on). He slammed on his brakes and came to a stop about a metre past where I had been. In fairness, he looked like he had filled his trousers and was very apologetic.
86

streetwise,

somewhere in my head. 28/02/2008 16:35:26
How many seats on the bus for the abled,how many for the disabled,enough said.
87

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:37:05
Mine just didn't stop. I suppose I am lucky he didn't do a U-turn and try to get me a second time!
88

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 16:37:54
#97 the pecentage of seats given to the disabled is to do with the percentage of the population who are disabled, anyways we are talking about a much sought after 'space' as opposed to a seat.
89

Artemis,

Embra 28/02/2008 16:38:58
I am saddened by the number of people who think that equal rights for disabled people means they're entitled to no help.

Think of it this way. An ambulant person would have got on the bus and either found a vacant seat or stood. There would be no question of waiting for another bus. Telling a wheelchair user to wait for the next bus is not treating them the same as an ambulant person - they require a wheelchair space to be able to use the bus. Denying them that space is not treating them equally, it is discriminating against them. Because they require a wheelchair space, they have been denied access to a bus they could otherwise have used, where an ambulant person would have suffered no detriment.

You can't say equal rights = same treatment when you're not comparing like with like. In order to ensure that disabled people have equal access to facilities and services, sometimes they need additional help or support - "special treatment" - and to say they're not entitled to "special treatment" is to deny them equality of access to those facilities and services.

I think some people aren't acknowledging that yes, it can be difficult to manage a baby and a buggy on a bus, but babies grow up eventually and