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Design watchdog slams tram plans



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Published Date: 25 January 2008
By ANDREW PICKEN
A SCOTTISH Government watchdog has slammed the design of the city's tram line.
The report by Architecture and Design Scotland (ADS) highlights potential "safety issues" from having tram stops in the middle of the city's busiest streets and also hits out at tram chiefs for having produced no "meaningful" graphics of the trams,
platforms and stops so far into the scheme.

The design quango is also concerned that the tram design appears to have been considered in isolation to the rest of the route's street fixtures and fittings.

The ADS report concluded: "We continue to be concerned at the low priority given to public realm, urban design and related funding considerations, when such aspects will have profound and long lasting consequences for the capital city.

"The project lacks joined-up thinking, and a lack of management is evident in the approach to funding, the integration with retail, streetscape or other initiatives, and the co-ordination of the project across various city departments".

Tram bosses today defended the scheme's design and added the ADS report was based on a presentation from November and progress had since been made.

But city politicians said the concerns raised in the report were shared by many people across the Capital.

Steve Cardownie, the city's SNP leader and deputy leader of the council, said: "We have always been concerned by how the trams will fit with the city's streets and TIE have not really been forthcoming with answers so far.

On the issue of tram stops in the centre of the streets, ADS is concerned the arrangement will create safety problems, with people having to cross busy roads to reach the pavements.

Tram and council bosses also came under fire from ADS for not considering the needs of pedestrians and cyclists so far.

Willie Gallagher, executive chairman of TIE, said: "This project has been designed in conjunction with the people of Edinburgh for the people of Edinburgh. We totally refute the accusation of being 'technically led' and are confident that when the trams begin to run in 2011 all will agree that the scheme fulfils the aspirations and expectations of all."

Andrew Holmes, the council's director of city development, said: "We fundamentally disagree with what Architecture and Design Scotland have said. Many of their comments betray their lack of understanding of the process, as well as the discussions and agreements which took place around the approval of the parliamentary Bills for tram lines one and two.

"We will continue to liaise with ADS and would hope that they will come to show a better understanding of the project."


WEB LINKS

• ADS report on city's trams



The full article contains 445 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Arnie,

Newington 25/01/2008 12:00:18
There is definitely a level of secrecy regarding trams, who is in charge, what is the route, were are the stops going to be, how long is it going to take. I think most people realise its going to be a disaster and are already trying to distance themselves from the projesct.
2

fresian,

edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:02:55
Willie Gallagher, executive chairman of TIE, said: "This project has been designed in conjunction with the people of Edinburgh for the people of Edinburgh." Bull5417!! how many of the "people of Edinburgh" actually support the trams.....Bu663r all!

"when the trams begin to run in 2011 all will agree that the scheme fulfils the aspirations and expectations of all."

The expectations were that we would be scrapping this project.
3

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:05:46
#1 The route and stops have been well-publicised, just where have you been living for the past few years?
4

alex paterson,

embra 25/01/2008 12:08:19
Never mind the design just slam the tram we dont want them.
5

fresian,

edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:10:59
no 3 rrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrr!!!! you know what I mean
6

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:11:26
The ADS report seems to confirm exactly what the Council's advisor, Sir Terry Farrell, said recently to the News, ie, that from what he had seen, the emphasis thus far has been almost entirely on technical issues with little thought for the public realm.

A recent News article related to £180m (if I remember correctly) of proposed schemes in Edinburgh having to be deferred due to the financial crisis and included a figure of £10m of public realm improvements arising from the tram project. So, despite TIE's denials, Sir Terry Farrell's and ADS's concerns would appear to be borne out by the fact that there is no money available to carry out streetscape improvements.

This has been one of my major concerns for the start. There is no question that building a tram line through
the city centre will bring a huge level of scarring and this latest report is very worrying indeed.

7

mrmoneypenny,

25/01/2008 12:14:25
Im looking forward to when Princess Street closes, and we get the ' this is a short term solution, with massive benefits in the future ' roughly translated into english meaning ' We are hiring hundreds of managers to reintroduce the number 22 on rails'
8

James (1),

25/01/2008 12:24:19
When it was TWO lines it was expect to be finished in 2011. Some quotes even said 2010. We are being forced to have one line and the time frame is STILL the same?

Note to TIE:-(Store this article away so that when you go way over budget, and you will, then you can say
" We took into consideration the finding of ADS and naturally this had an impact on the end costings" Sound good? The public will swallow anything if you blame others).
9

Dave2384,

25/01/2008 12:24:48
I still want to know what happens when Princes Street closes for New Year, where will the trams go when it is closed. Or like the fire that happened on Princes Street and it was close the buses could go down George Street or Queens Street how will a tram do that?
10

eric,

Lothian 25/01/2008 12:26:05
Hilarious!
11

gggrumpy,

25/01/2008 12:31:17
I can just see the many marches and parades that walk along Princes Street.
The trams come to a grinding halt.
Flag wavers are electrocuted.
Fireworks nights are ruined by electric masts.
Hogmanay parties are spoiled by lunatics swinging from the wires.
Tourists jumping off trams in the middle of Princes Street, looking in the wrong direction and stepping in front of buses.
Its going to be carnage.
But wait a minute is it too late to use this money to improve our City.
Ive yet to meet anybody who wants this tram system.
12

Trams shams,

25/01/2008 12:36:45
It's funny that Willie Gallagher is on the defensive instead of taking on board these independent comments. He is a fool sitting on the highest of hills waiting for a fall if he believes that this monumental money pit disaster-movie-in-the-making is going to come in on time and on budget. I would encourage him and all the other TIE board members to make a personal monitory guarantee to that effect.
13

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:36:50
#9:

Quite.

Trolley buses would have been a better option.
14

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:41:27
Has anybody envisaged what one of these trams is going to look like ? According to TIE each tram is around 40 meters in length - that is about the same length as three of the new three axle buses in a row.
Fares will be the same as the Lothian Buses ? We have been told over and over again that the Edinburgh Council has no jurisdiction over Lothian Buses and in fact legally has to make sure that it does not influence the operation of the company.
Is there any plan of the changes in the Leith Street to St Andrews Square section of road to reduce the gradient for the trams ?
15

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:43:22
Any criticism from Architects on lack of detail is a right laugh. Having worked with a good number of them, the last thing they have on there mind is how people get to and from their buildings, car parking etc. It is always an after thought. Next time you see an artists impression by architects see how many cars, buses etc are in the picture. Good chance there is none as it spoils their pretty pictures.
16

Anecdotal,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:48:05
Walking along Rose street last week I saw two people walking towards me wearing high visibility jackets and hard hats. I thought they were a couple of construction workers having a break but as they got nearer I saw they had something written on their jackets "Tram Helper". What on earth is a tram helper hen we haven't even got the things yet!

I still think they will be a disaster for Edinburgh.
17

Anecdotal,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:48:39
'when' not 'hen'
18

Ecto,

London 25/01/2008 12:48:44
#14 Why do you think Edinburgh Cooncil have no jursidiction over bus fares Lothian Buses is owned by them and the cooncillors sit on the board. This whole project is a waste of time and money why intorduce trams which are just big buses on rails that can't go anywhere, are less flexible and take up huge swathes of the street squeezing already congested roads into a smaller space. Wake up people like cars make provision for them in terms of proper parking and reducing bottle necks, not creating them- perhaps that could be thier new motto (and I won't charge much for the idea!)
19

Bob 2,

25/01/2008 12:50:54
...."(ADS) highlights potential "safety issues" ... and also hits out at tram chiefs for having produced no "meaningful" graphics of the trams, platforms and stops so far into the scheme."

But city politicians said the concerns raised in the report were shared by many people across the Capital.

Steve Cardownie, the city's SNP leader and deputy leader of the council, said: "We have always been concerned by how the trams will fit with the city's streets and TIE have not really been forthcoming with answers so far.

bit late now, what has most commentors being saying for the last year or so.

wait until we have the first accident when a pedestrian runs in front of a tram, the tram wont stop as fast as a bus or be able to swerve.
20

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:53:31
At the bottom of this article, there is a link to the ADS report. It is not long and I would urge anyone interested in the project to give it a read.
21

Colin G,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 12:58:04
Of course they are right about the trams running in the middle of the streets and the difficulties of boarding.

The answer eventually from TIE will be that all traffic (bus, car, lorry, bike, motorbike) will have to stop and wait each time people mount or dismount from the tram - and until those people are safely onto the pavement.

TIE's sole concern is to ensure that cash is spent as fast as possible in order to blackmail the city into funding the overspend. The Council have been conned into this disastrous project.
22

KTCB41,

25/01/2008 12:59:44
If we're on a economic shoogly peg and retailing is said to be going to suffer the most then I wouldn't want to work in a shop on Princes Street.

As a pro tram person however I don'ty realy care how much disruption it cases or how many people see there employer going out of business. The trams will be the solution to all our problems, even some problems we don't know we have.

The Council will be bankrupt at the end of it though, but never mind there are far too many public sector workers any way and it was after all their idea!
23

Bring Back Poll Tax,

25/01/2008 13:01:20
I hope that TIE are going to keep an eye on their Carbon footprint as the works and roads mayhem progress.

Think of all the tens of thousands of litres of fuel that'll be burnt by folk endlessly detouring round, never mind the contractors' diggers and trucks. Then there's the emissions pumping out of the factories churning out the concrete and steel for the infrastructure never mind the tram builders themselves.

When the tram finally wheezes off the line, it'll already be responsible for more carbon emissions that it'll save over its first 5 decades in operation.

I wonder whay that was never brought into the equation?

I did ask TIE about this but in an FOI response they breezily dismissed it as they weren't required to consider the pre running Carbon overdraft - no surprise there as it would have ruled out the scheme entirely.
24

Isabel,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 13:02:00
#11 gggrumpy

Like you, I have yet to meet anyone who wants the trams. What you have pointed out has obviously not been thought of by the thickheads who planned all this. Since the unwanted trams are going ahead, we should we make sure that our politicians are the flag wavers.

Essential services are cut but they can spend money on trams that are going to cause chaos in the city. The passengers will be in danger if they have to cross from the middle of the road to the pavement, and I am left wondering whether they will be eligible for compensation if they are injured.
25

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 13:12:03
Examples of what could be considered dangerous tram stops from around the world.
http://www.53a-pix.co.uk/picture/Trams-DU-030801.jpg
http://www.cornichon.org/archives/Strasbourg%20tram.JPG
http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/Tram-Barcelona/Tram01_03-02-DiagonalTerminus.jpg
http://www.midwestats.org/Images/2006/Amsterdam/S-Trams%20outside%20Centraal%20Station.jpg
http://www.galiciaguide.com/pics/coruna-tram.jpg
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://apike.ca/images/japan/hiroshima/hiroshima-trams.jpg&imgrefurl=http://apike.ca/japan_hiroshima-gallery-hiroshima-trams.html&h=450&w=600&sz=45&hl=en&start=21&tbnid=9A2KVTafa50iWM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtrams%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
26

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 13:18:16
#16 Anecdotal. I saw the 'tram helpers' on Princes Street as well. Maybe they are special counsellors who are there to help people get over moaning about this tram thing and get on with their lives!!
27

Bring Back Poll Tax,

25/01/2008 13:21:05
#25 - You shouldn't have done that - a special Cooncil "Working group" will be formed, sending themselves off to all the locations (business class + 5 star hotels) to carry out a health and safety assessment............
28

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 13:24:52
21. Thats what happens. There are pedestrian crossings from the tram stop onto the pavement.

Think Zebra crossings, Eg when people step out the cars will stop.

UNbelievable eh ? Tricky eh ?

THATS HOW IT WORKS, IN LOTS OF PLACES. ITS FINE.

Not many people die.

Honestly. How do you all feel about electricity ? Are you scared of it ? Is it wizardry ?

People are generally afraid of change - if theres anything wrong here its that TIE are not forthcoming enough with information.

It doesnt help when the Evening News are so vehemently against the first major transport scheme in edinburgh city for a long time.
29

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 13:38:34
(28) You think the EN is "vehemently against" the tram scheme? Have you read today's opinion piece?

I couldn't agree with you less - I think the EN stated its support far too early and has failed miserably to ask enough questions before the decision to proceed. It thereby helped to commit us to a project, many implications of which remain unknown and unquantifed.
30

Colin G,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 13:42:36
Re 29

My point was not about safety. It was about congestion.

Just yet another point about the tram line increasing congestion which has been ignored by TIE and the Council.

With regard to information release by TIE, they are waiting until they have sunk enough costs before they let people know just what they are in for. Why else would they choose to dig up the streets twice?
31

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 13:43:30
I'll read it sarah. i only get the online edition.
32

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 13:45:40
Logistically , digging up the road twice makes sense. Its no a model railway they are building and as one is for utilities and the other to actually lay the track (involving - lets hope - two different set of contractors - i wouldnt get a gasman to lay Tram Track).

The speed these fudders work at is another matter.
33

mad moo,

edinburgh 25/01/2008 13:46:42
Andrew Holmes, the council's director of city development, said: "We fundamentally disagree with what Architecture and Design Scotland have said. Many of their comments betray their lack of understanding of the process.."

Will Alan Henderson of Planning in City Development agree? He obviously respects the views of A&DS when the agree to back big developer Mountgrange in demolishing listed buildings and homes to create Caltongate, a St James Centre style development on the Royal Mile.

"The project lacks joined-up thinking, and a lack of management is evident in the approach to funding, the integration with retail, streetscape or other initiatives, and the co-ordination of the project across various city departments".

The same could be said of the Caltongate development - selling a valuable piece of commongood land and publicly owned homes and buildings for demolition when they could be developed to promote sustainable living and bring income to the community.

The trams is a big moneyspinner for TIE (sorry LIE) - an overly expensive technical solution to a problem. Not necessarily the problem we need to deal with first though if the council want to improve Princes St/St James Quarter.

34

Salvatori,

25/01/2008 13:49:23
No mention of the ridiculous route either that serves a mere portion of the city.
35

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 13:49:47
Mario (31) It is available online - go into "Opinion" on the left of the screen, the article is called "Key questions had to be answered first".
36

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 13:51:03
ok merci.
37

Kieron,

Stirling / Edinburgh 25/01/2008 13:58:51
Trouble ahead for Edinburgh. Why the hell did no-one listen to the people of Edinburgh. Nobody wants these trams and the chaos that they will inevitably bring!
38

AndrewS,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:00:44
Who are ADS ?
What credibility do they have? I've not seen much info about tram stops. It seems everything about trams is ad-hoc.
39

Gothic Rose,

25/01/2008 14:03:16
Opinion is on the right of my screen.Is it the same opinion?
40

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:07:13
500million and rising bigger white elephant than parliament monstrosity private companies making millions of tax payers money again goverment didnt even get a breakdown of costs thats because their pals are now going to be mega rich for a system that will fail from day one
41

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:08:43
most people have only seen a tram in blackpool with their wide open streets i say make the people who want this pile o p1sh pay for it
42

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:11:43
Some parts of the tram design manual


http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Attachments/Internet/Environment/Planning_and_buildings/Planning/Planning_policies/TDM_Section_4.pdf

http://download.edinburgh.gov.uk/Tram_Design_Manual_Draft/TDM_Section5a_Draft.pdf

A link to the RAIS to show that Terry Farrell and Architects have shown and interest in tram stop design

http://www.edinburgharchitecture.co.uk/edinburgh_trams.htm


The ADS have been carrying out constant reviews of the tram project so this latest report is nothing new.
43

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 14:20:07
39 That depends on whose opinion you ask. In my opinion its the same.

41. Brett , ach no i'm not going to bother.
44

Young Bob,

In your face.... 25/01/2008 14:21:38
LOOK GET REAL HERE…

WE’RE TALKING ABOUT A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF MONEY

£600M + MINIMUM (Yes we all know it’s going to be so much more)

VESTED GROUPS WILL PROTECT THEIR INVESTMENT

THEY ARE NOT GOING TO LAY DOWN AND DIE

NO MATTER HOW INSANE THE PROJECT

THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT LOST IT’S CHANCE TO HALT THIS.

THE BEST WE CAN DO IS TO

MAKE SURE THAT THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS….

THOSE THAT WERE PLANNING THEIR RETIREMENT ON THIS…

ARE NAILED TO THE MAST POLITICALLY/PROFESSIONALLY

WHEN THIS MESS EVENTUALLY BACKFIRES…

RATHER THAN SETTING THEM FOR LIFE….

IT SHOULD RUIN THEM…

COMPLETELY…

THE SCHEME IS PHYSICALLY DANGEROUS

COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY UNJUSTIFYABLE

AND GIVEN THE DESPERATE URGENCY FOR A NEW BRIDGE OVER THE FORTH…..

NOT ONLY AN OBSCENE WASTE OF MONEY…

BUT ONE THAT WILL SERIOUSLY HURT THE CAPITAL…

THOSE IN THE KNOW… KNOW THAT THIS HAS BEEN PLANNED FOR YEARS

THE CITY HAD ALL IT’S MAJOR ARTERIES CUT IN ORDER TO MANUFACTURE CONGESTION

IN A BID TO JUSTIFY BOTH POTENTIAL CONGESTION CHARGING OR A TRAM SYSTEM (ROUTE)

THOSE PROFITING FROM THIS DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE DISRUPTION

OR THE COST TO THE CAPITAL…


THE ONLY PEOPLE I’VE MET WHO SUPPORT THIS TRAM ROUTE

AND I MEAN THE ONLY ONES

ARE THE ONES DIRECTLY EMPLOYED BY IT

CHARGING EXTORTIONATE FEES (WAY ABOVE MARKET RATES)

ALL AT OUR EXPENSE….
45

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:22:00
Latest appointments to the tram project

http://www.transdevplc.co.uk/webfiles/18%2012%2007-edinburgh%20tram%20appointments.pdf

Nobody with any connection to CEC and all to do with running public transport elsewhere
46

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:22:29
Stop the trams NOW!!!

They'll be the ruin of Edinburgh.
47

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:24:01
Too late Bob, nobody is listening.
You need to rally the troops and take to the streets if you want to stop this one.

hear this.

SHOUTING ON EEN MESSAGE BOARDS WILL NOT MAKE A BLIND BIT OF DIFFERENCE.

Get over it and move along.
48

Richard Lionheart,

25/01/2008 14:28:07
#28 In response to the health and safety issues raised, you say that not MANY people die.

Do you not know that Edinburgh has a Zero Tolerance policy in place? If there is any chance of road deaths at all, these routes will have to have ROAD HUMPS!
49

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:28:42
#47, even if Bob gets over it, Edinburgh won't.

The trams will ruin the city financially and will ruin it as a place to get about in, driving away businesses and jobs.

They're a suicide note by the council, and we're paying for it.
50

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 14:34:50
Like i said, people are afraid of change.
51

Young Bob,

Here 25/01/2008 14:37:26
#47 Scallywag.

CAN YOU READ?

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID

WHAT'S IMPORTANT NOW IS THAT THOSE WHO ENGINEERED THIS DEBACLE

ARE RUINED PROFESSIONALLY

52

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 14:39:53
48. Of course some people will fall in front of a tram, in the same way some get run down by a bus or a car.

Trams dont have teeth and they cant come after you if you run onto the pavement. Or into a shop. They probably will be gone if you hide in there long enough. But there will be another one along in a few minutes so be careful.

The reason the trams are costing so much money I think is partly because they aim to do a good job of them , with state of the art techonology.

Thats a good thing. Of COURSE some people will make money out of building them , thats the way it works.

For a city , even a Billion pounds is not a lot of money for a scheme this size.
53

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:40:17
#49

I to have concerns over the costs etc but it is coming. Work is ongoing and the designs are progressing. (When we see them is another thing!!)

I also have an issue with people who just spout off without really having any appreciation of what is going on, thus my links etc.

If it is a grave as you suggest then do something about it. I have put the challenge out before and do so again .
There are enough people posting here to get together a march, protest etc. But the reality is that no-one has the gumption or desire to do anything serious to stop it. Posting here costs nothing and achieves very little.

That being the case just get on with your lives and the best you can hope for is that it is a success. If not then you will have the satisfaction of saying I told you so, albiet your cooncil tax will be half your annual income.
54

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 14:41:35
Young Bob , I'm being serious here , you should ask your GP to refer you to a Pyschiatrist.
55

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 14:52:03
#53, there's no point in a march. We're utterly helpless. The tram zealots have determined what's good for us and they'll be imposed on us come what may. Yet, hand on heart, I can say that I've met only one single solitary Edinburgh citizen who supported the trams - and he was a young Liberal Democrat activist!
56

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:03:08
#50, I'm certainly afraid of change if it means enormous expenditure to no purpose and the city centre gridlocked and barricaded off for years!
57

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:04:25
Bob

I still don't see any calls to take to the streets.

What is your strategy. How exactly are you going to ruin these apparent monsters?

58

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:04:30
how else do you build a tram system without diversions Urban G ?

Thank your lucky stars we're not getting a metro !!
59

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:08:28
#58, you don't. But since the whole thing will be useless, why build it?

I can see many, many disadvantages in cost and disruption. But unless I lived in Leith and wanted to commute to the airport (which I suppose a few people do) I see no advantages in the idea.
60

Young Bob,

STILL HERE 25/01/2008 15:09:04
# 50 Mario


SO SOMEONE PRESENTS A RATIONAL COHERENT ARGUMENT

THAT YOU DON’T AGREE WITH

THEN THEY SHOULD SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP

GROW UP

REALLY GROW UP

ATTENTION SEEKING CHILD

GROWN UPS ARE TALKING…

GO BACK TO THE CHILDREN’S TABLE






BY THE WAY..

TRAMS CAN ONLY BREAK….

THEY CANNOT AVOID…



FOR THE LAST YEAR EVERY ARGUMENT I HAVE HEARD

AGAINST THE TRAMS IS A HARD SOLID WELL CONSTRUCTED

AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL

PRACTICAL

ARGUMENTS

AGAINST THE TRAMS

NOT EMOTIVE



THOSE “FOR” DEAL EXCLUSIVELY IN THE REALM OF THE VAGUE.

“THE TRAMS WILL BOOST EDINBURGH’S ECONOMY”

SIMPLE QUESTION…

HOW EXACTLY?



PLEASE ANSWER ME

I’M REALLY DYING TO KNOW

I’D REALLY LOVE TO KNOW HOW REPLACING ONE SOLITARY BUS ROUTE

WILL BOOST THE EDINBURGH ECONOMY

DOES HALF THE POPULATION OF SCOTLAND USE THE 22

ARE THE TICKETS ON THE 22 THE SAME PRICE AS CONCORDE



PLEASE TELL ME… I’M DESPERATE TO KNOW

UP ‘TIL NOW WHENEVER I’VE ASKED THAT QUESTION

I’VE BEEN MET WITH A DEAFENING SILENCE.



I’M SICK OF HEARING HOW IT WILL BOOST THE ECONOMY

I HEAR NO SUBSTANCE IN THE ARGUMENT…

ACTUALLY I HEAR NO ARGUMENT





IS A 2% REDUCTION IN CONGESTION

ARTIFICIALLY CREATED REMEMBER

WORTH £600M…?

IS THE EVENTUAL FIRST FATALITY WORTH THIS PRICE.

SPEAK TO A FEW OLDER RESIDENTS

THEY WILL TELL YOU A GOOD PROPORTION OF THE REASON

THAT THEY GOT RID OF THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE

WAS A SAFETY ISSUE…. FATALITIES WERE A REGULAR OCCURANCE
61

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:09:54
#56.
So like shouty Bob, I ask, what is the strategy to stop this thing. If you don't have one then just let it go. The stress of worrying about things you have no control or influence over will kill you and you won't have to care about how much your council tax is in 2015 or whenever.
62

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:10:53
I am scared of Bob.
63

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:12:04
If you look at 60 it in a certain way, It's like a Cure song.
64

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:13:18
#61, there isn't a strategy to stop the trams. The zealots are determined we shall have them.

But that won't stop the trams bankrupting the city and destroying the city centre as a place to shop and work.
65

mrsweekeef,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:14:19
Sarah B - I'm sure £180 million of lost expenditure on other projects is an under-estimate, much as the stated cost of the tram project is a massive underestimate. Schools are the most obvious place that the council is trying to save money but everytime the press report the council reneging/backtracking on a project in the city - we should remember where our services have gone.....to fund the most stupid tramline in history that over 70% of those Edinburgh residents polled, didn't want.

Alex Salmond - never mind golf courses in the highlands, start interfering where it matters!
66

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:14:49
And if only Bob would stop shouting and write in paragraphs rather than in lines and phrases, you'd see that most of what he says is irrefutable and makes excellent sense!
67

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:17:00
COME CLOSER AND SEE
SEE INTO THE TRAMS
FIND THE GIRL
WHILE YOU CAN

COME CLOSER AND SEE
SEE INTO THE DARK
JUST FOLLOW YOUR EYES
JUST FOLLOW YOUR EYES

I HEAR HER VOICE
CALLING MY NAME
THE SOUND IS DEEP
IN THE DARK
I HEAR HER VOICE
AND START TO RUN
INTO THE TRAMS
INTO THE TRAMS

INTO THE TRAMS

SUDDENLY I STOP
BUT I KNOW IT'S TOO LATE
I'M LOST IN A TRAM
ALL ALONE
THE GIRL WAS NEVER THERE
IT'S ALWAYS THE SAME
I'M RUNNING TOWARDS NOTHING
AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN
68

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:19:13
If bod could be bothered to look , he would find answers to most of his questions.

But he cant be bothered and i'd rather just make fun out of him than tell him things he doesnt want to hear.
69

Young Bob,

HERE 25/01/2008 15:21:32
#57

DID I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ME

I WAS TALKING ABOUT THOSE THAT HAVE ALREADY DROPPED THE BALL

OUR JOURNALISTS (so that rules out the Evening News)

OUR POLITICIANS

PUBLIC SERVANTS

THERE WILL BE AN ENIVITABLE ENQUIRY…

THE REAL INTENT AND MOTIVATION OF THE PROJECT SHOULD BE EXPOSED.

IT GOES WITHOUT SAY THE SHEER INCOMPETENCE OF THE PROJECT AS WELL
70

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:21:47
#68, but there aren't any answers to the cost and the disruption. They're indisputable.
71

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:23:12
WHERE DID YOU COME FROM WHERE DID YOU GO
WHERE DID YOU COME FROM COTTON-EYE JOE

IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR COTTON-EYE JOE
I'D BEEN MARRIED LONG TIME AGO
WHERE DID YOU COME FROM WHERE DID YOU GO
WHERE DID YOU COME FROM COTTON-EYE JOE

IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR COTTON-EYE JOE
I'D BEEN MARRIED LONG TIME AGO
WHERE DID YOU COME FROM WHERE DID YOU GO
WHERE DID YOU COME FROM COTTON-EYE JOE

IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR COTTON-EYE JOE
I'D BEEN MARRIED LONG TIME AGO
WHERE DID YOU COME FROM WHERE DID YOU GO
WHERE DID YOU COME FROM COTTON-EYE JOE
72

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:24:00
Things cause money and they cause disruption.

I personally feel it will be worth it.

Anyway have a good weekend mate , im off.
73

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:25:14
cause=cost

E=mc2

74

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:25:46
#72, we'll have to disagree. I think they'll be a disaster.

But have a good weekend, and enjoy getting about the city centre while you still can!
75

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:26:59
pff.. I dont live in scotland , im no that daft.

;)

cheers
76

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:27:45
#75, NOW I see why you support the trams!
77

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 15:27:48
Bob thinks life is an episode of 24.
78

Young Bob,

here 25/01/2008 15:30:39
MARIO…. THIS IS PUBLIC FORUM FOR DEBATE

THIS IS NOT A PLATFORM FOR YOUR

EGO

THAT DIZZY SENSATION THAT YOU FEEL

IS NOT THE WORLD SPINNING AROUND YOU


IF YOU HAVE A SENSIBLE ARGUMENT TO MAKE

THEN PLEASE MAKE IT

OTHERWISE

GO AND PLAY ON MYSPACE, FACEBOOK OR BEBO

WITH THE REST OF THE ADOLESCENTS.
79

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:31:28
#72 TGMA signing off at 15:24 that smells like cooncil flexi departure time :-)
80

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 15:51:31
Here is one for you all to try.

Google "Evening News Tram " then your posting ID.

I get 4 hits right at the top, same with Sarah B and Urban Guerrilla.

Young Bob - just one relating to the Hearts Memorial at Haymarket.

Has he just woken up to this tram thing and thats why he keeps shouting because he is in shock!!
81

tomias,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 16:01:10
With things they way yjey are at the moment-come the first ting-a-ling of the first tram, num,ber? 22 ? I will in possibly not be here- permanently.
So Folks all the best !
82

Leila,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 16:23:15
Am I right in thinking this is the first time a published report has actually dared criticise the tram scheme? And headline news in the EN too (I'm surprised they didn't bury it on page 9).

I think Mr "Willie" Gallagher's assertion that "this project has been designed in conjunction with the people of Edinburgh for the people of Edinburgh" is a gross exaggeration of the very limited public consultation which has actually taken place.
83

gus1940,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 16:33:40
Stop this lunatic scheme now.
84

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 16:39:30
#82 JT
As with all things there are degrees of opposition and concerns these range from
No trams, full stop
No trams but I'd pay for trolley buses
Yes trams but not at this price
Yes trams but not these routes

And I could go on.

The general NO argument portrayed here seems to be No to trams because its all to difficult and costly. Unlike Sarah B (and a few others) who has done her research, this view seems mostly a gut reaction. If these folk had been alive in other times it would have been complaints about cars aeroplanes electricity etc etc.

As I have said I have my doubts too but am generally supportive of the principle of high quality and modern mass public transport systems.
85

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 16:45:00
#85 > As I have said I have my doubts too but am generally supportive of the principle of high quality and modern mass public transport systems.

Supporting a principle is one thing, but *in this particular case* do you really believe that the trams will be worth all the huge disruption and expense?
86

,

25/01/2008 16:45:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
87

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 17:08:17
cheers sellotape .. scallywag no dont work for the cooncil, but if i dont behave i might in another life.
88

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

25/01/2008 17:09:36
as ive tried to say elsewhere , the money for this scheme is there and available.

read this next sentence very closely.

YOUR INCOME TAX WILL NOT GO UP, YOUR COUNCIL TAX WILLNOT GO UP. YOU WILL HAVE A TRAM SCHEME AT THE END OF IT.

Did you get that Bob ?
89

Liberton Star,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 17:17:46
I think we should cancel the trams and put the money towards a much needed additional Forth Bridge. By my reckoning the money should pay for about a tenth of the bridge, leaving only about another four or five billion pounds to find.
90

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 17:28:06
#89 - The financial liability for any cost over-runs and/or operating deficits rests with Edinburgh City Council. Parliament made that clear.

Business rates are set centrally so cannot be changed. ECC is already flogging assets to meet their contribution so are they unlikely to have anything else to sell. Therefore, the only real "lever" that the council has to raise money is through increasing council tax as most of its income is in a fixed block grant.

So unless you can see into the future and be absolutely certain that costs will be no higher than planned and the (highly ambitious) business plan will be met, then there is a risk than council tax will have to go up. TIE is lying (again) when it states that council tax will not go up - it cannot be certain.

Oh, and its not a tram scheme, it is one single line.
91

BusOff,

West Linton 25/01/2008 17:38:03
If(if) Melbourne is anything to go by then I can see a 'Tram Island' in the middle of the road with traffic lights controlled by the tram driver - no problems there everything stops until such times as the tram moves again. Now then what about all the OTHER TRAFFIC LIGHTS!!!

Nil Desperandum
92

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 17:40:44
Mrsweekeef (65) - You may well be right but the figure the article quoted of £10m for public realm improvements for the tram scheme caught my eye because it was the first time I had seen any figure mentioned for this item.

However, given the terms of ADS' report I now strongly suspect that the £10m is actually a back of a fag packet calculation, ie, if so little consideration has been given to public realm improvements, then how was it possible to place a figure of £10m on them? Furthermore, whatever the improvements cost, that funding will have to come from somewhere other than that which is currently available.

It is all particularly interesting when one remembers that Andrew Burns, in the initial stages of the project, promised that the city centre would benefit from huge public realm improvements as a result of the trams and that this cost would be covered by the government grant.

93

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 17:43:46
GraemeH. Nicely put but don't spolit it by saying its a single line. It is two lines. One being the 'loop' (which really should be closed at Granton instead of the half assed effort) and the other being the link to the airport that will use the south side of the loop.

While I appreciate and fully understand your concerns the world would be in a pretty sorry state if people in the past had stopped doing things because there was a degree of financial risk involved. All kinds of businesses and organisations make judgement calls on these things. To make a decent judgement call you have to fork out cash in the first instance, tie seem to be doing that but are still given pelters. The key issue is at what point do you stop analysing and either pull the plug or bash on.
As I have said before and will say again, this is one of those occassions when only time will tell.
94

The Judge,

25/01/2008 17:45:17
#91 The City Council cannot increase Council Tax, so the project has to be built on time and on budget. Where will the money come from when it does go over budget?
95

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 17:57:22
Scallywag (85) - I agree that we may well have reached the point of no return with this scheme. However, I was interested to read the consultation document in relation to the St James Centre which is the first project I have come across to use this "new style" of early engagement with the public.

This new style is required in the hope that by properly engaging in the initial stages of a scheme, potential "showstoppers" and issues will be identified and steps taken to address them, thus minimising objections and, hopefully, speeding up the process.

I do believe that the example of the the tram scheme and the failure, even now, to address fundamental issues to the satisfaction of the public has probably been one of the factors leading to this new requirement, ie, vocal public criticism has led to a better method of planning projects in the future.

Whether one is for or against this scheme, I think the motivation of most of the commentators is an interest in the future of the city. Most of us acknowledge that public transport improvement would be desirable and the argument is over what is the best solution within the financial constraints which exist.

96

Wee Beardie,

Edinburgh 25/01/2008 17:57:32
Can anyone tell me why the old tram system was scrapped? I remember being on the last No.2 tram to leave Leith in, I think, 1952, and there was only a fraction of the traffic on the city roads that there is now.
What has changed that makes the reintroduction such a good idea?
And how many long-awaited, worthwhile improvements in the city and throughout the country, such as renovating Glenogle Baths, are being held up because funds are being spent on an en