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Council split on green parking



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Published Date: 23 July 2008
DEPUTY council leader Steve Cardownie today insisted plans for higher parking charges for gas-guzzling cars were not a "fait accompli", as the city's ruling coalition appeared split over the proposals.
The SNP group leader warned the plans, unveiled yesterday, could be "discriminatory" against poorer families and needed careful consideration.

Insiders at City Chambers also complained that senior councillors were kept in the dark about the propos
als contained in the report before they were revealed in the press.

But Lib Dem city leader Jenny Dawe, who admitted she did not know the scheme was on the agenda for next week's transport committee until yesterday morning, dismissed Cllr's Cardownie's warnings, and said the SNP is "probably not as green as we are".

The issue will now dominate high-level talks between administration leaders from both parties before next Tuesday's committee.

Under the proposals, owners of the biggest gas-guzzlers would see the cost of an inner zone permit double from the current £160-a-year to £320. But drivers of the least polluting vehicles in the outer zones could see their charge fall from £80 to just £15. Residents would also face higher charges for second vehicles.

Cllr Cardownie said: "I'm not convinced that imposing financial penalties (unrelated] to income is the way to convince people to drop to cars with lower emissions. It seems discriminatory.

"Many families have large cars because they have a large number of children, yet perhaps a single person with a 4x4 would shrug this increase off.

"It is by no means a fait accompli that we will go through this route – we will examine it more thoroughly."

The RAC Foundation also believes the charges could be unfair on people with large families and disabled people, while the Association of British Drivers has dismissed the proposals as a "political exercise" intended to make life difficult for motorists.

Council officials said the proposals would result in a loss of income of around £50,000, because only 20 per cent of motorists would pay more – while two-thirds would see their charges go down. The changes would involve a new traffic regulation order, which could result in a public hearing before the scheme was adopted.

City environment leader Robert Aldridge, who was out of the country when the report became public yesterday, said the proposals "seem sensible at the moment".

"I hope that once they have seen the details, (other councillors] will be on board," he said.

Cllr Dawe, who insisted there was no split in the coalition, lent her personal support and added: "From the point of view of good environmental housekeeping, it's certainly something worth putting to committee.

"You don't need a 4x4 or a car with an enormous engine to carry a large family. It would be a very small number of people who felt they were being discriminated against."

"I think this took everyone a bit by surprise when it appeared on the agenda – normally we would have had an agenda planning meeting, but the convener and vice convener have been on holiday."

One administration source added: "It caught a lot of people by surprise. There are concerns that this seems to be another policy that might be deemed anti-car.

"There's a lot more discussion to be had, but alarm bells are ringing."





The full article contains 555 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Paddy Power,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 11:24:34
As commented on anothe thread . . . . .This has nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with raising funds. Personally, all I will do is not renew my permit and park surreptitiously outwith CPZ which will cause more damage to the environment as I drive around and around trying to find a space. What wonderful thinking by our esteemed council numpties
2

Down with everything,

23/07/2008 12:08:23

Not so much anti car as pro money grabbing.

Spot on #1

3

Incandescent,

23/07/2008 12:10:08
Well said #1.

Jenny - let's see if you can better your last spectacular outburst. Surely there must be a limit to your bitter hyperbole?
4

I love to eat Sellotape,

23/07/2008 12:19:03
I thought the headline read "Council Spit on Green Parking". Which would have been news.
5

tog,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 12:21:47
I think we have been here before. New council proposal is made then Cardownie appears not to back it then proposal disappears. What exactly is going on at EDC? It is usually the media, often unfairly, who say the council are clowns. Cardownie's main purpose seem to be to make the council look like idiots. The previous council may have made many mistakes but at least policy was thought out and a united front was presented.
6

The ghost of Harry Lauder,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 12:22:15
1-3: typical self-interested deluded views. The scheme to charge big gaz guzzlers more is sensible and as the owner of a small car for my family of 4 I welcome them as fair and forward-looking.
7

paulr,

edinburgh 23/07/2008 12:22:26
Councillors need to realis that not all 4X4 vehicles are gas guzzlers, many have engines in the 1500cc range nowadays.
Of course this is the same councillor Dawe who tried to have a tattoo shop, which is almost cmpletetly anonymous from the outside, shut down because kids walk past it going to and from school.
That really says it all with regard to the morons we have voted in to run the city.
8

familymanwith2jobsandawifeworkingfulltime,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 12:37:12
All a bit silly really. If they omit a lot of CO2's, shouldn't we be encouraging the high poluting vehicles to park up and not run around the city.

Makes even less sense when you consider by far the biggest poluters are the buses, followed by commercial vehicles.
9

Dileas,

23/07/2008 12:39:26
Another Trotskyist idea adopted by the LibDems - have they no vision of their own? Don't they discuss issues with their own leader, not to mention their coalition "partners", the SNP councillors?

Have we replaced malignant and Stalinist Labour councillors with clueless LibDems?

What hope is there for Edinburgh in that case?

Or is it just that the Council needs lots of extra money to pay the rentals on the leased trams once the City Council diverts their funds to building the Granton Spur?
10

tumshie heid,

23/07/2008 12:44:52
Dawe says "they (snp) are probably not as green as we are"
Tripe!! It is just that the SNP recogonise that this scheme is doomed to fail as it is nothing other than a revenue raiser. The electorate can't be fooled all the time so why does Dawe think if she uses the magic word "green" that everyone will back this nonsense.
I hope that all the motorists affected by this refuse to pay should it ever be enforced (unlikely)
11

Rv2!,

23/07/2008 12:55:20
This scheme, no matter how stupid, should be limited to new vehicles only. I bought a sensible size of car, with a sensible engine for sensible use. Now it seems that I may be falling towards the upper end of this potential ruling and will be punished for a bad choice I made 4 years ago. Sorry that is simply a bad ruling.

If they want to encourage low emmission vehicle use, then they should introduce this type of rule but limit it to new cars from 2009. Once we know the rule exists and we are in a showroom this WILL change opinions and purchase choices.

I will not be encouraged to go out and buy a smaller/greener car while I currently own a perfectly good one. I should not be "fined" for historic decisions.
12

alex paterson,

edinburgh 23/07/2008 12:55:22
Steve Cardownie is a great guy and knows what he is doing.
13

SS,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 12:58:00
I really hope someone questions the legality of this sort of motoring discrimination like Porsche did in London.

Quite simply people will not get out of their cars. All this and other crazy 'congestion / environmental' proposals (read tax) will do is drive (quite literally) people out of Edinburgh. The city centre will suffer further until business start to up sticks and move on. Wake up! Make it easier for people to park and drive in town and the town will thrive both during the week and at weekends.

The council should be careful what it wishes for as in the long run the city will suffer for it.
14

Fenderman,

23/07/2008 13:06:19
I have a family of 35 and we get by with a bubble car.
15

The Judge,

23/07/2008 13:11:45
I told you this would never happen.

#12 Steve "do you know who I am" Cardownie is many things but a "great guy" isn't one of them. I wish somebody at the EEN would look into his business dealings so we can get rid of him once and for all. He jumped on the SNP bandwagon just before he was pushed off the New Labour one. One of the worst things the SNP did was allowing him into the party.
16

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 13:16:24
' . . . councillors complained they were kept in the dark about the proposals before they were revealed in the press' - of course they were! Wherever did these elected clowns get the idea they could make decisions -Officials make the decisions, idiot kooncillors, even if they can be bothered to read past the Executive Summary, just raise a hoof to approve. It always been that way.
17

Ron D,

Enybru 23/07/2008 13:18:43
We should have known this would never happen - can't expect the New Town residents to give up their 4-wheel-drives.
18

Top Floor,

23/07/2008 13:22:34

Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, obviously ....

First, press release hails this proposal as being ground breaking, first Council in Scotland to be so imaginative, etc etc

Then, Cardownie enters the fray, "Haud on, I've been gettin a bit o' heat about this fi ma chums and I don't like it.

Now - "well, it was just an idea, we didn't have our usual "behind closed doors" meeting, a couple of the guys have been on holiday, we'll need to discuss it further" etc etc

No back bone

No leadership

Result ------ SHAMBLES
19

Top Floor,

23/07/2008 13:24:23
#15

Judge, a very insightful contribution if you don't mind me saying so.
20

Jenny MacArthur,

23/07/2008 13:35:12
Yep, the world is divided into selfish git drivers who can't see beyond their immediate murderous pollution-spewing self-gratification, and the rest of us who care about people and the planet. Why should we expect Councillors to be any different?
21

Council Insider,

Council HQ 23/07/2008 13:41:24
Jenny,

I drive a 4x4 (I get a free permit because I work for the Council)but I don't think anybody has been murdered from the pollution my vehicle causes. If I have killed anybody then I should be locked up along with the rest of my 4x4 chums.
22

The Judge,

23/07/2008 13:42:06
#20 Oh dear 3/10 must try harder!

#19 All the EEN has to do is follow the money, its not that hard. I suspect Steve will have a lot of dirt on their New Labour friends so no journo will investigate him.
23

E300,

23/07/2008 13:45:43
Yep Jenny, we have 35Mn "selfish git drivers" with their 15Mn kids and another 10Mn who depend on their sons and daughters cars for days out,shopping and visits. That leaves only one angel named Jenny.
24

Jed Smith,

Moscow 23/07/2008 13:49:44
#20

Does your random comment generator have an off switch? If so, please switch it off - all the hot air you've produced this week has killed three inuits and a polar bear.
25

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 14:04:56
I trust that all the eco-commnists in favour of this live in one bedroom flats? After all, having a house bigger than you need to survive in is a grotesque waste of resources.
26

I love to eat Sellotape,

23/07/2008 14:07:36
What is an "eco-commnist"?
27

Incandescent,

23/07/2008 14:15:48
#20 Jenny

Is that it? Well, I'm very disappointed.

Incidentally, Jenny, you don't sound like a particulary "caring" person to me. You sound like an enviro-nut with a serious neurosis.
28

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 14:18:27
#26 Typo! Eco-communist.
29

I love to eat Sellotape,

23/07/2008 14:21:27
What is an "eco-communist"?
30

The Judge,

23/07/2008 14:27:41
What is an "eco-communist"?

A member of the green party.
31

Statsman,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 14:30:07
"[S]ince 1999 new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming. As Lord Keynes famously said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?""

http://tinyurl.com/5oy7hs
32

I love to eat Sellotape,

23/07/2008 14:35:15
Well, if it has a URL, it MUST be true.
33

Statsman,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 14:45:23
32 I love to eat Sellotape,

The article starts with the writer's credentials which shows why the article is of interest.

"I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector."
34

I love to eat Sellotape,

23/07/2008 14:56:59
Well, mention that when you start.
35

Jasbar,

23/07/2008 15:01:36
When is a parking charge not a parking charge?

When city of edinburgh council make it a tax.
36

Jed Smith,

Moscow 23/07/2008 15:09:40


1. deputy council leader steve cardownie is not a rocket scientist.

2. a few years back they were wibbling on about a new ice age on its way. the scientists don't know for sure about global warming given that the globe doesn't have a steady temperature. Just ask any medieval english vineyard owner.

3. does anyone get stuff from the pound shop in the st james centre? their DVD selection is highly 'eclectic'
37

roadstohell,

23/07/2008 15:20:12
Ach this is just another diversionary tactic to take people eye "off the ball", the ball being the TRAMS!!!!!

It took me 1hr and 10 mins to traverse the length of Princess street yesterday !!!!!

ach I'm scunnered
38

Incandescent,

23/07/2008 15:48:36
#37 Jed - will you define "eclectic"?
39

JML,

23/07/2008 15:54:15
What I want to know is if this goes through, where does the extra money go? I very much doubt it would be into a "Greener Energy" fund. It'll go to lining the pockets of the council and I'm sorry but they're taking too much money off the people of Edinburgh for a shoddy service as it is.
40

Jenny MacArther,

23/07/2008 15:58:18
car drivers, selfish murderers the lot of you
41

I love to eat Sellotape,

23/07/2008 15:58:41
#35, stop copying. See #4.

Boo hoo.
42

JML,

23/07/2008 16:15:12
Jenny why don't you shut up until you've something sensible to say.
43

I love to eat Sellotape,

23/07/2008 16:19:08
Here is a tip for anyone new to this site. Any comment which features the word "tram" in upper case followed by several exclamation points can be safely ignored.
44

rabmataz,

23/07/2008 16:21:35
Jenny, you're a dork.
45

James (1),

23/07/2008 16:22:23
#41 Are you using a hospital computer? Please stop giving your medication away because without taking it you come over as an idiot.
46

JML,

23/07/2008 16:25:35
Now James #46, don't mock the afflicted. :)
47

James (1),

23/07/2008 16:28:48
"What we do is INCREASE the permit fee for the big cars"

Councillors- I like it! More money taken from the public and sold as a green issue.

"We could then REDUCE the permit fee for the small cars"

Councillors- Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Why are we giving them money back when we can fleece them proper. No I think we need to keep the permit fee at the same price for all. That way we maximise the revenue and we are seen as treating everyone the same. We shaft EVERYONE!
48

rs,

23/07/2008 16:41:58
Biggest joke is while the Council and Council Officials

Increase parking for Permits Holders and Meter users.

The are quite happy to get FREE City Centre parking for themselves and their employees..

Take at look at any of the Council Buildings in and around the City Centre and there are plenty of Cars enjoying FREE Parking at the Tax Payers expense!
49

,

23/07/2008 16:43:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
50

Jed Smith,

Moscow 23/07/2008 16:44:46

#39, Incandescent

"Eclectic" means broad/ varied for instance an eclectic DVD collection would include

"Dr Snoogles" (children's tv series 1980s)

"The Eagles Live and a bit blurred", San Diego 1979

"Night of The Reptilian Jenny Zombie McArthur", a cable tv only horror film from 2006, starring nobody anyone ever heard of.

They've got the Dr Snoogles dvd's at the stand by the front door, next to the argentinian Nescafe 'imports'. While stocks last.
51

rs,

.on the beach 23/07/2008 16:50:26
21 Council Insider, Council HQ 23/07/2008 13:41:24
Jenny,

I drive a 4x4 (I get a free permit because I work for the Council)but I don't think anybody has been murdered from the pollution my vehicle causes. If I have killed anybody then I should be locked up along with the rest of my 4x4 chums.

Yip the Ice Caps are not melting, seas are not rising in some parts of the world.

There was a News item earlier this year that featured an Island,(ZERO CARS) where the inhabitants HAD been FORCED to leave because of rising seas, Caused by People elsewhere on this planet.

Like other issues, congestion etc, people see everyone else as the problem, but never themselves.

So when global warming hits us and we are sitting in a COLDER climate, just remember its everyone else's fault.

Could we be like Dinosaurs, what happened to them?
52

rs,

in ma house 23/07/2008 16:52:22
Best example of car pollution is the SMOG in China,

the athletes in the Olympics are more likely to get done for having high Carbon Emissions in their blood stream than drugs!
53

Down with everything,

23/07/2008 16:54:56
Message to Jenny.

I wonder whether that very large mouth of yours could fit over the tail end of my larger than average exhaust.

I reckon about 5500 rpm in neutral for about three minutes ought to do you some good.

Global Warming ( or climate change as it has been cleverly altered to due to the fact that nothing is warming up) is only one branch or the world leaders 'fear' stick, the other being obviously terrorism, used to keep us in our place, which is sitting at home doing nothing except paying taxes.

54

Prin the Dissolving Donkey,

23/07/2008 16:55:40
Well, there's a constructive comment.
55

rs,

23/07/2008 16:58:22
No13

and of course the city bypass is never congestion.

Still think the best idea that someone suggested, would be to be like glasgow and drive a four lane motorway through edinburgh, one North to South and one east to west.

Princes Street gardens would be converted into a 10 high multi storey FREE car park, with free complimentary taxis to Princes street.

but why would anyone want to come into Edinburgh's City Centre to Shop, when you've got places like Glasgow and Livingston to shop at
56

gus1940,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 17:06:04
(a)If I own a small car which produces x gm. of CO2 and drive 20k miles per annum I pay say £y for road tax and £z for a parking permit I am considered a low polluter and so am charged a low amount.

(b)If, on the other hand I own a large car which produces 2x gm. of CO2 and drive 2k miles per annum I pay say £2y for road tax and £2z for a parking permit I am considered a high polluter.

However, the example in (a) produces 10 times as much pollution as that in (b) yet pays half the taxes that (b) does.

The stated aim of the proposed Road Tax and Parking Charges is to punish the polluter.

Could anybody explain how the example given above complies with that stated policy.

57

,

23/07/2008 17:09:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

,

23/07/2008 17:19:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

tomias,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 17:20:53
Edinburgh- a laughing stock thanks to you know whom/
60

Jed Smith,

Moscow 23/07/2008 17:25:00

#60

"whom" is a word only f nnies use
61

,

23/07/2008 17:45:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

New Town Resident,

23/07/2008 17:47:45
-17. I support the proposal, as do most other people in the New Town that i know. Not for the bogus CO2 bilge reason, but simply it will make it easier to park outside my house. Large 4x4s take up far too much space and their big doors swing out so damaging the side of my car. Even better the proposals make it much more expensive for second cars at the same address which will tackle the multi-occupancy problem caused by all the rented flats.
63

Euan,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 18:06:49
#11, RV2! makes some excellent points.

If, and I say IF this ridiculous scheme ever gets the green light(which I sincerely hope it doesn't), it should only apply to new cars bought AFTER the new regulations come into force.

Much like Alistair Darling's scheduled increase in car road tax from 2010, this scheme is a stealth tax and would actually punish people for a decision they made in the years gone by when purchasing their vehicle.

There is NO WAY that an driver should be punished and asked to pay more for a parking permit simply because the car they bought in the past falls into the ridiculous new 'category' that EDC are proposing.

This whole hairbrained daylight robbery scheme needs to be put to bed NOW so Edinburgh's residents can just get on with their lives without someone constantly trying to prise more money out of their wallets.

All done, I hasten to add, to simply gain political brownie points for trying to appear that they are doing something 'green'.

This country is going down the pan.






64

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 18:23:32
Local council should just not be allowed to make any decisions about anything. They should be bound by law to providing basic services to their citizens and stay out of any side issues like this 'green' issue. They should be allowed to raise money from council tax and business rates + their central government grant ... but business rates and council tax should be immune from any rises until they have publicly apologised for over spending and employing too many people and announced plans as to how they will reduce expenditure the following year to refund us - whilst tendering their resignations and a sworn statement never to return to public service .... !

If this scheme is introduced I think a spot of mass civil disobedience is needed just to remind these little money grabbing rats who is actually in charge....

65

Jed Smith,

Moscow 23/07/2008 18:38:06
#62

Keyboard's kn ckered, c n't afford a new one in these credit crunch times. You cheeky b st rd.
66

,

23/07/2008 19:03:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
67

niddrienutters,

Edinburgh 23/07/2008 19:05:52
Have i missed something? Do we have 2 Council administrations now? Edna Dawe seemingly forgetting her tv interview about how much she wanted to tax everyone with a bigger car and now the SNP who recognise this might not be such a good idea afterall?

Edna seems to agree with the last person she spoke to at every turn so I conclude this is a central plank of Lib Dem policy making?

Could we have some leadership please and stop all this nonsense so that the taxpayers of Edinburgh know who is in charge and how decisions are being made? Maybe its the officers of the Council are actually making policy for Edna?

The city council is looking more and more like a tinpot administration leaderless, rudderless, immersed in farce!

Get a grip guys!!!!!

68

jdships,

23/07/2008 19:39:06
18 Top Floor,

Left hand doesn't know what the left hand is ding never mind the right one.
Many people predicted this administration would become a shambles under Jenny Dawdle's leadership and it is being proved.
"But Lib Dem city leader Jenny Dawe, who admitted she did not know the scheme was on the agenda for next week's transport committee until yesterday morning,"

She is having a laff surely ?
Or has Edinburgh now got it's own "Wendy the Mouth " ?
You can fool some of the people some of the time etc etc
69

jdships,

23/07/2008 19:48:24
64 Euan,
Good post !
The shear arrogance of these people beggars belief.
It was an odd's on favourite as soon as the Scottish Government froze the Council Tax that stealth tax schemes would be the order of the day by this council Where LibDem's are involved they wouldn't know a "policy" if they met it in the street.
70

Julian.,

edinburgh 23/07/2008 22:49:56
numbers 1 to 3,

Which part of "Council officials said the proposals would result in a loss of income of around £50,000" did you not understand?
71

Julian.,

edinburgh 23/07/2008 22:56:27
New town resident,

Spot on remarks; except in my opinion, space is the issue. The price of your permit should be directly linked to the length of your car. That would enourage shorter cars to free up parking spaces.

EUAN,

There is always the option of changing your car in the next 2 years...something which most people would be doing anyway.
72

Jed Smith,

Moscow 24/07/2008 01:51:27

#72 Space is more than an "issue". Space is the final frontier. Just ask Richard Branson or Buzz Aldrin. Or Amy Winehouse.

I think the council should encourage parking, with a snappy slogan like "PARK IT OR CARK IT". That would be real motivational.
73

Chris W,

24/07/2008 07:44:20
So the SNP are not as 'green' as the Lib Dems? Another reason to vote SNP then. Edinburgh needs to be run by people who have their feet on the ground, not their head in the clouds.
74

Panophobic,

Under my desk 24/07/2008 14:15:29
Once again the good people of Embra firmly grasp the wrong end of the stick. The usual nonsensical, ill-informed, vitriolic rantings of the selfish and the blinkered stain these pages once again.

There's not one person who can justify driving a vehicle that churns out more than 200g/Km of CO2 when there are greener alternatives. Even the big beemers produce significantly less CO2 than that. If your vehicle is polluting now, then now is when you should pay for the damage that vehicle does to the environment.

So:

Read the report. Or, get someone to read it to you. Then, and only then, will you be able to make a valuable contribution to any discussion.
75

Rv2!,

26/07/2008 13:12:49
The Council are also adding a TAX to people using the name "Panophobic" as of immediately. This is considered to be back-datable to cover losses and offence caused historically. The TAX is £1 per rant. You are due them £1000 because you ranted before the tax was introduced. Stating you could have done something about it if only you have been informed IS NOT AN EXCUSE.

No charges should be introduced for historical purchases. Also, changing the reason behind the "PARKING PERMIT" to allow it to become a "GREEN PERMIT" should not be allowed.

 

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