Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Friday, 3rd July 2009 Change Date

Which is the greatest game your team has ever played?

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Edinburgh Evening News site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Controversial bus pram ban has 'no legal necessity'



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 04 August 2008
THERE is no legal requirement for Lothian Buses to enforce its controversial ban on prams, it emerged today.
The council-owned firm has come under fire for the policy which it says it needs to keep space clear for wheelchairs in order to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act.

However, the Department for Transport today insisted that while it is
necessary to provide wheelchair space, it only needs to be vacated "if at all possible" when a disabled person gets on board.

ECAS, the city's top support group for people with disabilities, said there was no need for it.

There is nothing in the law about which type of buggies or prams can be carried on buses, while city leaders have called for a report into the pram ban.

David Griffiths, chief executive of ECAS, said: "We are keen to see common sense and common courtesy prevail and do not understand how Lothian Buses reaches the conclusion that the DDA requires a total ban on prams being taken on the bus.

"I don't think anyone in a wheelchair wants people thrown off buses for them. It should be left up to the driver's discretion.

"I am worried this is being framed as a wheelchair users versus mothers battle and it is not like that.

"They have co-existed on buses fine until now."

Passengers on Lothian Buses are still able to take on buggies which can fold up to maintain a space for wheelchair users.

A survey carried out in the Evening News last week saw one mother allowed on to three buses with her pram despite the ban.

A Department for Transport spokeswoman said: "The Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000 (PSVAR) requires new full-size buses to be wheelchair accessible. This means that there needs to be a designated wheelchair space.

"It is acceptable for this space to be used by other passengers when it is not required by a wheelchair user but it should be vacated, if at all possible, when a wheelchair user requires it."

Arlene Mill, 41, from Sighthill, is one of dozens of pram users who have contacted the News to protest at the ban.

She said: "I think the majority of people would agree with ECAS on this, it just needs a bit of common sense.

"The number of prams and wheelchair users on the buses compared to how many services there are must be tiny.

"I don't see why they are making such a fuss."

"The worry now is that if you have some drivers letting you on the bus on your way into town but you might not get back home."

Lothian Buses today insisted its policy was in line with anti-discrimination legislation.

A spokesman said: "In order to ensure that, as far as possible, wheelchairs can be accommodated on our vehicles, we are unable to carry prams as they cannot be folded.

"We can, however, carry one unfolded buggy if the wheelchair space is unoccupied."

Lothian Buses' chairman, Pilmar Smith, said: "We are well aware that we have no legal right to enforce non-co-operation of a driver's request to vacate wheelchair spaces.

"However, our conditions of carriage require other occupants to vacate the space if needed by the wheelchair user."





The full article contains 551 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 August 2008 10:39 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Lothian Buses
 
1

,

04/08/2008 12:07:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Skip McClendon,

04/08/2008 12:10:23
#1

Still a child-hating numptie, I see. What makes you think it is all about cost? We are all SUPPOSED to use public transport these days, you know...

Anyway....what a surprise. Lothian Buses insistence that the pram ban was "essential" under the terms of the DDA is....well, it's a big fat lie, isn't it?
3

hassan i sabbah,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 12:15:29
#1-What a nice man you are.
What makes you think you can post on an EEN forum if you can't spell the word "ON"???
Beneath contempt.Back under yer bridge.
4

Trams shams,

04/08/2008 12:17:25
At last! An answer we all know is correct and proves the that Council and their bedfellows LRT are a bunch of job worths who simply cowchow to the minority... Idiots!
5

MARCHER,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 12:17:30
What did mother's do to get on a bus before the wheelchair space became available? If we wanted on a bus, we would graciously fold up our buggies/prams since all are foldable anyway. So what's the problem with mothers nowadays, are they more lazy and selfish?

When I travelled on public transport with my children, I had a carrycot, a frame and shopping all at once - no problem with folding the frame, carrying the carrycot and my shopping, if there was, I would ask someone for assistance. Nowadays, its mostly a car seat attached to a frame - more convenient and, with a easy-to-collapse frame, it shouldn't be too difficult

I absolutely laugh my head off when I see a mother shake her head at a bus stop when there's a pram/buggy/wheelchair on the bus already - why not just fold your buggy/pram and aboard the bus for gods sake???

6

Cumberland Sausage,

04/08/2008 12:20:06
#1 You are a bitter wee sad case! Good trolling though.
7

allknowing,

04/08/2008 12:23:11
" We are all SUPPOSED to use public transport these days, you know..."

Supposes, says who. What are you, a sheep, or someone with a free mind. Jesus, you all use busses becuase your told to do so. Do you think MSP use busses!! ha ha.

#6 answer my question, if someone cant afford a car, which isnt exactly much, how on earth can they afford a kid!!!!!

8

,

04/08/2008 12:23:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

,

04/08/2008 12:24:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

,

04/08/2008 12:26:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Skip McClendon,

04/08/2008 12:28:03
#7

Yes, my mind is free. And it even allows me to spell words like "buses" and "because" correctly and everything!
12

,

04/08/2008 12:28:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

allknowing,

04/08/2008 12:29:00
#12 why then do you use a bus because you are told to??
14

Skip McClendon,

04/08/2008 12:30:30
#13

I don't use the bus personally. Next rant?
15

allknowing,

04/08/2008 12:37:17
#14 yes you do!

I just want to know why adults think they can afford to have and bring up a kid, when they cant afford their own personal transport. I would have thought that was quite important, for such things like going to hosptial, the docs, shopping etc!
16

alex paterson,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 12:38:19
Let the Lazy mothers walk,i presume their prams have wheels,thats how it was done years ago,and fresh air for the bairn,they will sleep better.
17

,

04/08/2008 12:40:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Spout,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 12:41:56
#5 - well said.
19

Mallory,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 12:42:41
They often use these monster prams as glorified shopping trolleys. It is about time these parents were a little less selfish in hogging the spaces reserved for disabled space.
20

,

04/08/2008 12:42:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

Cumberland Sausage,

04/08/2008 12:46:14
I can't believe the bitterness that some folk have to something innocent like a mother wanting to get on a bus without having to fold down her pram. What's wrong with you?
22

RickL,

04/08/2008 12:50:28
Oh that last news item on this sort of thing nearly caused civil war...

Just to chip in as I didn't on that one. And I'm not taking sides in this as it has just got bizarre, but merely pointing out something...

Not that many years ago, no Edinburgh buses did not have the wide door things and it was impossible to get a pram or the like on without folding it up. All buses had one door in, one door out and the doors all had a pole down the middle. A metal thing, not someone from Poland.

I should know as I was buggy pushing around those days. All it took was a nifty foot manoever(sp?) and the buggy was collapsed down and on the bus we went.

What is so wrong with that nowadays?
23

RickL,

04/08/2008 12:51:30
That should read 'no Edinburgh buses had the wide door...'.
24

aIIknowing,,

04/08/2008 12:56:15
I apologise if I offended anyone with my earlier posts.

I just get frustrated on Mondays, if I don't meet a nice bloke at the weekends. Went to CC Blooms, but just couldn't find the right guy.

Sorry for taking my frustrations out on innocent people.
25

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 13:02:38

Allknowing ~1,

It appears that you dont 'know' very much.

For many a new mum getting out with her baby is a necessity and her baby is a vulnerable wee soul that is 101% dependant on their mother, the last thing a mother needs is the worry and hassle of not being allowed on the bus.
As for any "discrimination" , it is mummy and her baby that is being "discriminated" upon!
26

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 13:06:04
here we go again, the poor mothers!!!!! for gods sake before there was reasonable access for disabled people these lazy people HAD to fold the buggy and carry the offspring.now they think its their divine right to take a space that can be utilised by someone less fortunate, i saw a female woman with one of them 4x4customised buggies come shopping trolley come ankle/leg nudger actually demand the ramp down from the platform! enough, the space is there for people less fortunate not for the bloody minded selfcentred "i have the right" people.
27

rs,

in ma house 04/08/2008 13:08:11
The Lothian Buses name was formed in January 2000 and replaced the former LRT Lothian fleet name. The company remains publicly owned - the major shareholder being The City Of Edinburgh Council
28

allknowing,

04/08/2008 13:12:47
#24, honestly, is that the best you can do, steal my username by adding an extra ,.

You may not like my posts, as the truth hurts, but note that all your comments have been removed, none of mines have!!!!
29

allknowing,

04/08/2008 13:13:21
ps is that filthy hibbee in case anyone was wondering who you where, Hibbee Harry!!
30

,

04/08/2008 13:13:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

Pazuzu,

04/08/2008 13:18:37
allknowing:

What is wrong with you?
Perhaps a disturbed childhood?
Get back in your testtube - freak.
32

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 04/08/2008 13:20:06
#5 absolutely perfect!

can't add anything more!

33

allknowing,

04/08/2008 13:24:31
#31 why am i a freak for thinking that parents should be able to provide transport for thir kids!!!


Why is this weird, freakish, or any other inpolite adjective you want to fire my way???

Please do tell!
34

Scotish Exile,

04/08/2008 13:25:33
#5, well said,

Mothers these days are a pain in the ar*e. They think the world owes them a living and they also think they can barge their way around shops and buses etc and the other pedestrians had better get out of the way.
35

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 13:26:17

Gordon ~26,

You are wrong! Not so very long ago before we had this new appeared 'hatred' for a mother and baby, many a man or woman would help a mother lift her pram onto the bus.
36

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 13:28:32
Is the requirement for LRT and other bus companies to provide space for disabled passengers not derived from the Disability Discrimination Act? If it is, I seriously doubt the Act also makes it a requirement for lazy, selfish, arrogant pram pushers.
37

Jenny MacArthur's Humvee,

04/08/2008 13:30:01
Aw come on, my comment wasn't that offensive was it? Bloody PC Brigade.
38

MARCHER,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 13:30:19
Post 25: No one is saying that mothers are not "allowed" on buses here, what we are saying is that some could be a bit more considerate and fold up their buggy/pram when a wheelchair user comes on board.

I am a carer myself and the stick that we get when we ask a mother to give up the wheelchair space is absolutely disgusting. I am in the opinion that Lothian Buses are right - the wheelchair user has priority - a baby can either be carried until they can walk themselves. A wheelchair user is in one because they have difficulty walking or cannot walk at all.

After all, its easier to carry a baby weighing up to 2 stone than it is to assist and carry a wheelchair user that can be 13 stone upwards.
39

Cumberland Sausage,

04/08/2008 13:30:39
allknowing - You appear to be some sort of a celebrity here on the EEN site, no doubt due to your witty ripostes and literary skills. Would I be correct in thinking you're as popular in real life too?
40

thehitmaster,

Penicuik 04/08/2008 13:30:46
The official line from Lothian Buses can be found here: http://www.lothianbuses.com/Prams.php

41

ange reid,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 13:43:22
The narrow doors that used to be on the buses did not allow wheelchairs or prams/buggies on them. Now most buses are accessible for everyone. Give and take is what springs to mind and 99% of passengers do give up the relevant seats for mothers and disabled people. Don't let this give Edinburgh even more of a bad transport image than it already has.
42

Jenny MacArthur,

04/08/2008 13:44:54
Erm... that's exactly what I told them last week. Legally it's nonsense.
43

allknowing,

04/08/2008 13:53:39
#39

Alas yes, however I try to not let it spill over in here!!!
44

mumtobrats,

04/08/2008 13:58:00
This is fantastic news! Nice to see that Lothian buses have finally put the guidelines on their website despite being 'policy' for 9 years.

Have just read through and it seems that my lie flat, foldable pram is allowed on despite being told by Lothian Buses that it is against health and safety regulations to allow anything lie flat onto the bus!

I wonder if Lothian buses were just taking bad legal advice or were lying when they said it was the law and they HAD to comply???
45

Clen Peapus,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 14:01:41
The key phrase is "if at all possible". Basically if a wheelchair user boards the bus then folding prams/pushchairs should be collapsed, if they do not fold then the wheelchair user should wait for the next bus.

However if a folding pram/pushchair is unable to be collapsed (e.g. it is laden with shopping bags) then again the "if at all possible" phrase applies. The wheelchair user should wait for another bus.

Drivers should be applying common sense anyway. Ask the parent/guardian when they intend to depart; if in one or two stops they may be willing to get off at the current stop.

Anyone being asked to vacate a bus (unless for inappropriate behaviour and the likes) should be entitled to a full refund of their fare.
46

Linmal,

Livingston 04/08/2008 14:37:45
To everyone good manners, so sadly lacking these days, is all that is needed here. But so often people able bodied and otherwise, do not know what this means. Just try saying please and thank you and having consideration for others.

I was on a bus yesterday which was full. There was a couple with two small chldren who were both occupying a seat. Did they make a fuss, no, their parents just told them politely to come and sit on their knees to let an adult have a seat. I haven't seen such considerate behaviour in years and it was extremely refreshing to see. Try it, you will be amazed how much better you feel for having been considerate to others and it made people on the bus smile to see such considerate behaviour too.

And yes, what is wrong with a fold down buggy. I never took very small children on the bus, ie babies. I used to walk to the shops with my pram and if I had a lot of shopping, then got a taxi. In any case, that is where fathers come in for unpaid babysitting, etc!
47

Skip McClendon,

04/08/2008 14:50:12
Sorry, been out for a long lunch and a relaxing stroll (didn't get the bus)...

#14 - No, I don't. Not sure why you seem to think you know more about my travel habits than I do. But happy to assure you that I don't use the bus. I tend to walk, take the train, cycle or use my car. Which I can afford, thank you, but often elect not to use.

Also, if you extend your argument of "if you can't afford your own transport, then you can't use the bus either" is pretty much an argument to remove all public transport for everyone. Your answer to overly busy buses seems to be for everyone to use their cars all the time! What a great (by which I mean "really stoopid" idea that is.
48

Skip McClendon,

04/08/2008 14:50:55
Oops, meant #15 in that previous post!
49

Skip McClendon,

04/08/2008 14:53:13
#44 mumtobrats

"I wonder if Lothian buses were just taking bad legal advice or were lying when they said it was the law and they HAD to comply???"

- I think we all know the answer to that one. They were telling big porkie pies.
50

James (1),

04/08/2008 15:24:27
#4 kowtow not cow chow! Cattle food has nothing to do with this subject.
First come first served is the mothers way.
Pretend you will get off if a disabled person tries to get on.
51

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 15:46:15
I just read the policy, and nowhere do the words "if at all possible" appear. The Disability Act makes it encumbent on LRT (and others) to provide facilities for disabled users on every vehicle built since 1999, and all this rubbish about prams and pushchairs is just exactly that - rubbish dreamed up by selfish people trying to justify their own position. Would that they had spend even a day ina wheel chair and try to get around the citry by public transport.
52

Skip McClendon,

04/08/2008 16:04:26
#51

No, it's Lothian Buses using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut.

How many wheelchair users have been deprived space on buses due to babies in prams? My guess....not too many, if any at all.

No-one is arguing against rights for people with disabilities. Of course they should have the same access to public transport as anyone else. And, of course, anyone boarding a bus with a non-foldable pram should vacate the space if required by a wheelchair user. No-one is disputing that.

But is it really such a problem as to justify an all-out ban on prams, effectively discriminating against very young babies who are too young to answer back? Of course is isn't.

All this hiding behind the DDA is just Lothian Buses attempting to justify their actions. Reading between the lines, they resent their obligations under the DDA, and are seeking to blame someone else (it's those damn single mothers again!) for their own failings to deliver vehicles which meet the needs of all users.
53

Maxibus,

04/08/2008 16:07:11
The Disability Act is a badly written piece of legislation. In the end it will be up to judges to decide if the law has been broken. Meanwhile the poor bus driver will get it in the neck. When a baby is killed because it is not strapped into it's pram will the mother take the blame? Or will she sue the bus company? I think we all know the answer.
54

M33,

04/08/2008 16:13:06
53 comments so far about a public transport issue in Edinburgh and no mention of the trams...what's going on?
55

Skip McClendon,

04/08/2008 16:16:21
#54

The trams will solve the problem. Everyone not pushing a fixed-frame pram will be banned. Just to balance things up a bit.
56

Hot Mama,

corstorphine 04/08/2008 16:24:33
#7 - maybe they cant afford to run a car BECAUSE they have a child?! And why should we all use cars just because of eejits like you who make sweeping generalisations without knowing any of the facts? God there are so many ignorant people posting on here it makes me cringe!!
57

Old Town Resident,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 16:27:57
Its painful to read folk arguing about this...we need better buses designed by mothers and the disabled, carers and so on and remember that able bodied folk without babys and young children may be in the majority but one day they could join the minority forever or a short time...and not all babys can be carried, may be ill, disabled etc and the mums may be unable to carry baby....
58

tomias,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 16:45:10
I am once again annoyed that I cannot read the removed posts. I am not a cretin,( a non pc word n case youse lot dinae ken like)/
Free speach?
OK shelve them on another site.
Smacks of the Chinese sometimes.
Dis the mod not go to an Edinburgh school?
59

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 16:54:04

#58,

You can read the removed posts, takes a little time though.
60

The Sheriff,

04/08/2008 16:58:25
Lrt found out.
61

,

04/08/2008 16:58:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

Hector the Red,

04/08/2008 17:00:20
Remember we were all baby's once, some of the posts are still acting like them though. I use the bus regularly and rarely see any disabled people using the bus but see lots of mothers and their babies. I also have a car and use to go shopping at the big supermarkets where I have noticed that all the disabled bays are usually full........as an observation what does this tell you?
Ansers on a postcard to EEN, cloud cukoo land.
63

Considerate mother,

04/08/2008 17:05:05
How ridiculous to say that a person shouldn't have a child if they can't afford a car. And to whoever said it doesn't cost much for a car is living in cloud cuckoo land. I just paid my insurance which was £300 for the year and road tax which is £101 for 6 months. Petrol is then £1.15 per litre.

However I can get a bus pass for £10 per week so for the same as it costs for the insurance and tax for the year - therefore am saving the cost of petrol and any repairs to the car.

I didnt drive for years and only learned to a few months ago. I used buses for all that time. If I could fold down my pram I did. However I had a double pushchair with a 2 year old (with lung disease) and a newborn in so it's not possible then - how do I tuck a child under my arm whilst stopping the other running in the road to fold a pram - oh and hold my weeks shopping too.

I don't see that you can say a person with children should buy a car any more than someone with children - and also my son has a disability so does that mean that I should still have to hold the pram just because he uses a pram and not a wheelchair due to his age?

Also to the person who said mothers are inconsiderate with their pram, I always hold the door open for people before going through and keep my pram and children to the side to let through horrible rude people who never thank me.

My oldest son also holds the door open for people who completely ignore him so before you go blaming mums and their children you should consider how selfish people are in general
64

Clen Peapus,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 17:15:20
#51 I don't think anyone has suggested that the words "if at all possible" appear in the DDA. By providing facilities for disabled bus users a company is likely to be meeting (at least some of) its DDA obligations. What is being stated by the Department for Transport is that if another bus user (e.g. mother with pram) chooses to use those facilities, rightly or wrongly, there is very little anyone can do.
65

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 17:23:26

Considerate mother ~63,

'Well Said'!

And lets not forget the 'Preemie' babies that need the security of their pram at all times when going out.
66

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 17:23:50

Considerate mother ~63,

'Well Said'!

And lets not forget the 'Preemie' babies that need the security of their pram at all times when going out.
67

Brodric,

04/08/2008 18:31:02
No 5 - well said. I could've written this.

Over recent months, I have had my toes run over, my leg bumped and, worst of all, had to stand whilst on crutches, while a woman took up four sitting spaces - 3 of which were covered the pushchair. Meanwhile, three other members of her family (adults) were sitting in a row at the seats nearest the door - and never said a dickie bird!! It took an Australian man to comment to those around me in general that perhaps someone on crutches should be offered a seat.

That's not to say that all mums are like that. Like Considerate Mum, I taught my children manners.

There has to be a degree of common sense in all this. I am not against the idea completely, but big prams and pushchairs should not be allowed on the bus. And when the bus is busy at rush hour, prams shouldn't be allowed on at all - except folded.

More concerning than the pram issue is that some people except young children to stand up for older people, when this is both outrageous and potentially quite dangerous.

Charles _ For many a new mum getting out with her baby is a necessity and her baby is a vulnerable wee soul that is 101% dependant on their mother, the last thing a mother needs is the worry and hassle of not being allowed on the bus.
As for any "discrimination" , it is mummy and her baby that is being "discriminated" upon! -

Charles you are a lovely man. But you are so out of date. If more mums and kids walked it would give them the exercise required to keep fit and slim. I used to walk miles with my prams and loved it. There are also personal baby carriers for short journeys and this has an intimacy that no pram can ever bring.

There is no discrimination here against mothers and babies, but my legs don't want to be "discriminated" against either. They want to remain in one piece.

Have you seen some of these new-fangled prams? They look as though they were built for tank duty in Beirut. If you had an attack of pra
68

YummyMummy,

04/08/2008 19:20:04
#68

You seem to contredict yourself quite a bit..
"Prams shouldn't be allowed on at rush hour unless folded"
But when you were on crutches.. "whilst on crutches, while a woman took up four sitting spaces - 3 of which were covered the pushchair"
Not quite sure how a pushchair managed to take up 3 spaces but i think its terrible no-one offered you a seat.
69

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 19:32:11

Brodric ~68,

I am certainly not, "out-of-date" DYW and I have been looking at 100s of baby carriers, if our IVF goes well, it could be twins, Ive seen some super twin carriers, but alas most come from the states.

As far as the "exercise" is concerned we are not shy of that, and usually walk till we drop, however if a mum or dad pushes a pram to the shops on a nice day for a couple of miles, they might want a break and get the bus home.

see ya later,

Chas x
70

furious mother,

p 04/08/2008 20:14:04
as the mother of a disabled child who uses a wheelchair i was refused entry on a bus with my child because ther was a pram in the wheelchair area i tried 2 explain 2 the driver that i could not take her out and fold it but had the doors closed on my face and the driver drove off leaving me and my child in pouring rain for next bus.i phoned lothian transport as soon as i got home i recieved an apology letter but this should never have happened in first place.
71

Considerate mother,

04/08/2008 20:16:15
#70 if your IVF is successful I can highly recommend the moby wrap. My daughter was 5 weeks premature and was too small for the baby bjorn carrier that I had bought. It was wonderful - I could keep her close to me and she loved it. You can also adapt it to carry twins quite easily.

Good luck with the IVF - my friend is undergoing the same at the moment
72

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 20:29:44

Considerate mother ~72,

Thankyou for the info and your thoughts, we also wish your friend success with the IVF.

Our potential baby/babies are frozen at the mo, waiting for my DYW to be ready to receive them after her bad hyperstimulation.
The reason I say "Twins" is because she is having two embryo's transplanted, this is the last year you will be allowed this, under the new legislation 2009.

It all means a BIG 'IF'! but 'IF' all goes well we could even have 'Triplets' and premature at that!

So 'Travel' will be a problem, but I am sure we will adapt,

Regards,

Suz's & Charlie x
73

jdships,

04/08/2008 20:55:13
I guess following this thread we now live ina "NANNY" state !!!!!!!
74

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 20:57:05
lets look at this from the drivers and Lothian Buses point of view ,if the mothers with buggies and prams all vacated the space when asked there would be no problem but unfortunatley this does not happen so mothers blame yourself
75

Hot Mama,

corstorphine 04/08/2008 21:17:58
# 68 - Brodric - your reply is full of contradictions which infuriate me. While you start off sounding quite reasonable you then go on to suggest that mums who want to take their children on buses are lazy and should walk - where do you get the suggestion that we do not walk anywhere? I fully intend to take my baby out on walks in his pram but would much rather do so by choice in a nice quiet area that along main busy roads that are choked with traffic fumes. And why should we have to walk to/from long distances which would then be an incredibly tiring and stressful journey rather than a nice outing? As for not being allowed on the bus at all during rush hour - this made my blood boil! Why should we have to stay off the bus at ANY time of day? Are parents not also likely to be travelling to/from nursery/childcare/work at these times? how do you propose I get my child to the doctor at these times of day or to the hospital if god forbid he is ill and I dont have access to a car?
What infuriates me the most is the fact that people like yourself say they "dont want to discriminate" then do just that by using the excuse that people used to manage without. Buses are a form of public transport therefore they should be equally available to all of the public regadless of age, working status or family situation
76

Number1,

04/08/2008 21:29:00
I don't care about this new find, I'll still enforce the 'parm ban'.
77

poorworkingclassfemale,

PRESTONPANS 04/08/2008 22:44:45
I witnessed an oap who was forced to give up his seat on a very busy bus by a female with a designer pram. The guy could barely walk and the bus was choc a bloc.

Where is the respect for our disabled people?
78

poorworkingclassfemale,

PRESTONPANS 04/08/2008 22:46:29
I witnessed an oap who was forced to give up his seat on a very busy bus by a female with a designer pram. The guy could barely walk and the bus was choc a bloc.

Where is the respect for our disabled people? Ban prams and buggies completely from our buses unless they can be folded down.

79

poorworkingclassfemale,

PRESTONPANS 04/08/2008 22:46:40
I witnessed an oap who was forced to give up his seat on a very busy bus by a female with a designer pram. The guy could barely walk and the bus was choc a bloc.

Where is the respect for our disabled people? Ban prams and buggies completely from our buses unless they can be folded down.

80

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 22:47:04
#52, Skip Mclendon,

"How many wheelchair users have been deprived space on buses due to babies in prams? My guess....not too many, if any at all."

Or, to say it another way, I don't know the figure but I'm going to guess anyway and use that as the basis for my argument.

"effectively discriminating against very young babies who are too young to answer back"

Or, to put it another way, effectively discriminating against mothers who are too mean to put their hand in their pockets and pull out 40 quid to buy a fold down pram/buggy...which would probably have its uses elsewhere anyway.

"


81

poorworkingclassfemale,

PRESTONPANS 04/08/2008 22:47:05
I witnessed an oap who was forced to give up his seat on a very busy bus by a female with a designer pram. The guy could barely walk and the bus was choc a bloc.

Where is the respect for our disabled people? Ban prams and buggies completely from our buses unless they can be folded down.

82

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 22:47:37
Yet more proof that our council needs it's butt kicked to remove it's head from that location ! Vote them out folks, vote every darn once of them out until we find people who can serve the public rather than listen to screaming little PC minorities.
83

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 22:55:56
As #75 and #71 say, it's the attitudes of selfish mothers not vacating their spaces for wheelchair users who have prompted this ban.

Grante, not all mothers have this attitude but Lothian Buses have obviously taken a balanced view that it's better only allow fold down prams/buggies in the interests of harmony. I think they have taken the right decision.

CHARLES,

There are some very good fold down prams available for premature babies.
84

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 22:57:17
#83,

What's this got to do with the council? They don't run Lothian Buses.
85

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 23:06:01

Julian ~84,

Hi hows buss,?

Years ago my ex and I had this terrific buggy that folded down with ease, to a real small size, we were abroad with it, it amazed the locals and other holiday makers.
however one can see problems if a woman (new mum) is laden down with shopping, trying to fold a buggy/pram and at the same time hold their baby.

'Onceuponatime' we had what we called,..'Gentlemen' that would only be all too eager to help a mother get on the Bus.

But alas it appears these days have passed us, the selfish only exist.
86

Considerate mother,

04/08/2008 23:07:45
#84 I'd love to know which ones? My daughter wasn't anywhere big enough at 35 weeks to go in a buggy at all - the straps wouldn't hold her in as she was tiny for a long time and a lot of the fold down ones don't lay flat which you have to do with young babies as they can't sit up.

Its all very well and good saying that mothers should get fold down pushchairs but that's not always possible

#82 instead of bitching that he had to stand up to allow a pram there why didn't any of the other able bodied people on the bus stand up and offer their seat - a pram needs the space the same as an old person does and a young person could have offered their seat.
87

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 23:16:31

Considerate mother ~87,

(You reminded me with your last remark!)

It is a VERY SAD DAY INDEED, when one witnesses a heavily Pregnant Woman, having to stand in the Bus, when busy, because not one soul will give up their seat for her, twice I have had to walk down the bus to offer my seat in this situation.

88

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 23:28:32
#87,

There are prams available for babies younger than 35 weeks. They're a car seat/pram combo. Pram Centre in Corstorphine I think.

Charles,

Buss is very well thanks.

Surely the situation can be resolved by placing baby on a seat for 15 seconds while you fold down the pram/buggy. If there's no seats then you'd probably have to rely on the kindness of others I suppose. As a last resort, surely the driver would be obliged to help.
89

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/08/2008 23:29:14
#87.

Sorry, should have said that those prams do fold down.
90

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/08/2008 23:41:09

Julian ~89,

Its the 'Pram Centre' in Corstorphine, a brilliant shop, that far surpasses the likes of mothercare and mamas&papas.

That's where we saw this 'brilliant twin buggy' imported from the states I think, the reason we went there was because we saw this woman in Tesco pushing one round the store with two fingers.

Well you all know me! I approached the Mother and asked her where she got the said,...'Twin Buggy', She even gave me a go of pushing it with her twins in it! :)
91

Julian.,

edinburgh 05/08/2008 00:49:46
Charles,

I think I already said that but thanks for repeating it.

I wasn't talking about a buggy that takes twins though. It's more like a fancy fold down buggy with a car seat which clamps onto the top to make it into a pram. Some of the whingers on this forum who claim to really need something like that should consider it.
92

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 01:31:56

Julian ~92,

We got that one, from the Pram Centre already in anticipation, although we don't have the base yet, (wheels)

I agree think its 'maxi-cosy' the travel system is brilliant,

Its in 'Pink' DYW recons if I fathered two girls before, the next two/three will be girls!

I'm doing a,..'runner', but it wont be in a 'Pram or Buggy'

:D
93

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 01:33:41

I might take the Bus! :D

What sevice goes, 'Real Fast'? :))
94

eveninglies,

05/08/2008 01:52:55

Lothian Buses clearly find prams a bit of a nuisance, people are slow to board and the prams are bulky.

They are simply using the disabilty laws as an excuse for their own rules.

"Blame the disabled not our company" is their attitude, and they are not the only company guilty of this type of thing.

This has nothing to do with aiding the disabled (The company probably never believed this) it is only about speeding up the boarding times.
95

eveninglies,

05/08/2008 01:53:14

Lothian Buses clearly find prams a bit of a nuisance, people are slow to board and the prams are bulky.

They are simply using the disabilty laws as an excuse for their own rules.

"Blame the disabled not our company" is their attitude, and they are not the only company guilty of this type of thing.

This has nothing to do with aiding the disabled (The company probably never believed this) it is only about speeding up the boarding times.
96

,

05/08/2008 02:12:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

Julian.,

edinburgh 05/08/2008 02:54:12
Charles,

If it's 3, doing a runner sounds like a very good plan. A ferrari would probably be the more appropriate vehicle.

But good luck anyway.
98

Paulie9,

Musselburgh 05/08/2008 05:20:00
Surely the aim should be to provide the opportunity for all people to get out and about?
Yes, the wheelchair space should be prioritised for wheelchairs. But if the space is available why exclude a group of people - mothers who are on lengthy maternity leave - many of whom will have no other transport, may be board rigid stuck in the same house day after day, and can only transport their very young child in a pram?
What is so difficult about having a policy whereby all baby carriages of whatever type are welcomed onto Lothian Buses. If a wheelchair then requires use of the bus the pram owner must either fold the device (where it can be folded) or, where it cannot be folded, get off the bus, wait for the next one or phone a taxi. Lothian Buses can then provide clear and unambiguous signs on your buses to explain the policy. This will ensure that even the most militant pram pusher is on shaky ground if they try to challenge the rule.
The current policy is now subject to almost daily ridicule in the News. It has bemused the government department responsible for the Disability Discrimination Act. And perhaps most telling - it is being ignored by those drivers who have an ounce of common sense. Most important, it seems to suggest that Lothian want to exclude one of our most important groups in the community from access to public transport. Come on Lothian, stand up for public transport, fulfil your public duty - CHANGE THIS NONSENSE POLICY!!!
99

Considerate mother,

05/08/2008 08:45:06
#89 But thats not suitable for a premature baby - the rules say that a premature baby should not be in a car seat for long because their lungs are small and underdeveloped and being at that angle squashes them further.

Besides that when my daughter was born at 35 weeks I had my 2 year old as well (as I mentioned he has lung disease) so I had to have a double.

Also you say about laying the baby on the seat while you fold down. In my experience of buses (admittedly this is when I used to live in London) is that the drivers will depart as soon as you are on - I have seen many people fall over like this and there is no way I would be laying my baby on the seat
100

Claudia Sniffer,

05/08/2008 08:51:35
I have been told on the bus driver gossip wagon that the reason behind this new enforcement is that a mother was not holding onto her pram when the bus had to brake quickly and the pram shot down the bus. Now she is suing the bus company and the driver is suspended!! I woudn't let them on either now if I was a driver.
101

Bertie The Bat,

05/08/2008 08:57:06
Let the train take the strain.
102

poorworkingclassfemale,

PRESTONPANS 05/08/2008 08:57:52
# considerate mother

You are the one who is doing all the bitching.

Would you give up your pramspace for a wheelchair? I think not
103

Cheese burger,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 09:04:49
I don't know what all the moaning is about. It's only been since these kneeling buses that you were allowed to have your pram UNFOLDED. When I had my kids, all the prams/buggies had to be folded up and (usually) hung up in the bus.
Stop complaining people. If it folds, fold it. Your baby might even appreciate being held!
104

Claudia Sniffer,

05/08/2008 09:07:58
Why do babies have to be laid flat? Are they laid flat in the womb now too? Is it against the law to carry them?
105

rs,

in ma house 05/08/2008 09:14:30
99 Paulie9, Musselburgh

and the next EN headline would read,

Mother of Six Thrown off Last Bus,

yip you can see the headline a parent gets thrown off the bus to let a wheelchair user on and gets left

yip roll on the 170 standing spaces on the tram network, as many buggies and prams as you can cram on
106

Cheese burger,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 09:17:17
Why not make bus seats fold down? Then there might be a little more space for everyone.
And as for re-usable tickets. We have them. They're called bus passes.
If a mum is using the bus with her buggy regularly, then surely that's the obvious answer.
Also, how about baby carriers if you've a premmie. These ones where you wrap the child around you are hugely successful and greatly comforting to said child.
There are all sorts of options here people, use them. A wheelchair user would love to be able to have options.
107

SILVANA,

glasgow 05/08/2008 10:18:24
When my children were small (2 in number) I used to take the bus but unlike Cheeseburger, I FOLDED my pram. Buggies are made to fold but these days the women just get on with the child in the buggy. Too much like hard work and no common sense. I admit that it is far easier to get on the bus complete with buggy in full sail but the consideration for disabled wheelchair users does not seem to come as easy.
Allow prams on buses by all means but have them folded.
108

Cheese burger,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 10:28:07
108
Read the post again. I had to fold my buggies too - you weren't allowed them on the bus unfolded.
109

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 05/08/2008 10:53:58
drivers point of view............ mother boards bus with child in arms ,hubbie with buggie full of shopping straight into space next stop another buggie first couple refuse to fold next buggie left at stop,our hands are tied we cant force them to fold ....so its back again to just plain ignorance....its not just wheelchair users that have the problem with buggies other buggie pushers do too....use the space correctly no problem
110

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 05/08/2008 10:55:04
thank god I on the 18 today old bus no buggies no hassle yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssss
111

Linmal,

Livingston 05/08/2008 12:14:56
You know what - the scene is an all too familiar one. Mother gets on bus with baby in buggy, doesn't look at baby but spends the whole journey either texting or talking on her mobile phone. Just think about it, she couldn't do that if the baby was on her knee! Just proves the point that people are selfish to the point of not even paying attention to their children.
112

Julian.,

edinburgh 05/08/2008 14:03:33
#100 Considerate mother,

Our baby, born several weeks more premature than yours, did fine in one of those pram/buggy/car seat combos. And it was recommended as suitable by the retailer.
113

Considerate mother,

05/08/2008 15:27:36
#113 well obviously your retailer knows more what is suitable than a paediatrician in special care who said premature babies shouldn't be in car seats if at all possible then?
114

MARCHER,

Edinburgh 05/08/2008 21:33:57
Now that you've ravelled on Considerate Mother, would you be considerate and answer the question at the end of Post 103?
115

Julian.,

edinburgh 05/08/2008 22:46:44
#114,

Well obviously your paediatrician knows better than the nurses and doctors at Simpsons maternity hospital who were quite happy to let a premature baby go home in a car seat.

As a matter of interest, how are premature babies supposed to travel in cars?
116

rs,

in ma house 06/08/2008 08:01:04
yawn
117

Considerate mother,

06/08/2008 09:10:16
#115 If I was able to get someone to hold the baby so I could fold it down then yes but as I said - my son has a disability anyway so surely he has an entitlement to a disabled space too?

#116 - Read my post - I said anymore than they have to. OBviously they have to go in the seat to go in a car but they should not be used on a travel system to push a premature baby around - they should be laid flat
118

Decent,

Edinburgh 06/08/2008 15:03:07
Since the people featured who started the whole debate are unemployed and haven't paid a penny in tax all their lives I really don't think they have a right to anything and I wouldn't let them on my bus either!
119

kats mum,

06/08/2008 15:19:10
As a disabled mum of one, soon to be two, I am furious about this!!! Although my buggy does fold, I am unable to do so without a lot of pain and difficulty, not to mention that I am not confident in holding my daughter whilst the bus is in motion. Why should it matter if I'm in a wheelchair? I'm still disabled. I was even asked by one driver what my disability was, my reply - none of your business!
Even still, I have got off the bus to allow wheelchair passengers to travel and it is a shame that more people dont, but when there are no wheelchair passengers on the bus, why shouldn't I be able to use the space.
With regrads to folding my buggy up, there used to be plenty of space to store it, now there's none! I live in Stirlingshire and we're allowed two prams on at the same time and there has never been an issue. I may pay more for bus fares but at least I dont run the risk of getting stranded with a child.
120

Hot Mama,

Corstorphine 14/08/2008 06:27:45
re: "decent" #119 - I happen to be one of the people in the facebook group and work 2 jobs, one of which is working with people with various disabilities. Not only have I never been unemployed, I have never claimed any kind of benefit and paid tax since I started working so where exactly do you get your ignorant and downright ridiculous ideas from? Quite frankly if you were driving a bus no parents would come near it as they would rather wait for another no matter how long that might take! Your screen name should be taken off you and allocated to someone who actually shows some decency if yore going to post such nasty and unfounded comments
121

Decent,

20/08/2008 12:56:02
Hot Mama - Please read comments and note words - featured - and - started whole debate. I did not mention you or facebook??? You can buy calm tablets from any chemist.
122

J4cko,

01/09/2008 18:12:09
122 posts on this story.

everyone get a life and move on.

there is bound to be more interesting things in the news and better things worth talking about.

mind you, going on some of the comments seen here, posting useless comments on this is probably the highlight of peoples sad life.

we are bored now, shut up and move on.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.