Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Friday, 16th May 2008 Change Date

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Edinburgh Evening News site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Trams chiefs anger traders after leaving meeting early



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 30 April 2008
FURIOUS Leith Walk traders came face to face with tram bosses in a heated public meeting last night.
Over 150 traders from The Walk down to Constitution Street confronted TIE chief executive Willie Gallagher with tales of losses of up to 90 per cent.

Mr Gallagher, 49, failed to assure troubled traders that they would be able to survive the works.

He said: "I'd love to say that it will be all right but I can't, and if I did I would be lying to you.

"I do understand the complaints but I know this is not enough.

"There's little more we can do because of the budget we have to work with but there may be ways to stretch the way it's used."

Mr Gallagher excused himself from the meeting after only 45 minutes to tend to his ill wife.

However, there was uproar when the only two other TIE representatives – construction director Graeme Barclay and HR and corporate affairs director Colin McLauchlan – followed.

Lothian MSP Shirley Anne Somerville said: "Are all their wives ill or did they just not wish to stay? It's clear that most of the people here have little faith in what they had to say."

TIE is currently offering businesses with a rateable value of under £28000 a 20 per cent rebate with a support package of up to £4000, which they have been able to extend to off-route side streets due to a lower than expected uptake.

However, many traders said this falls far short and suggested further measures such as a freeze in rates, or a low-interest loan to tide businesses over.

Federation of Small Businesses Edinburgh chair Graham Russell seemed to rule out the possibility of rate freeze.

He said: "By law, Lothian assessor John Fowler can only reduce rates if rents are decreased. In this matter his hands are tied."

However, Edinburgh North MSP Malcolm Chisolm weighed in to contradict this claim.

He said: "I had a conversation with Finance Secretary John Swinney regarding the rates issue and he said councils have the discretion to freeze rates in cases of extreme hardship.

"Seventy-five per cent of the cost will be bourne by the local authority, and 25 per cent by the Scottish Government. I suggest the council explores this option immediately."

Hi-Fi Corner's Colin Mackenzie accused TIE of "corporate vandalism" and suggested appointing an independent loss assessor to evaluate each business' losses.

TIE has frequently declined to comment on "unsubstantiated loss claims", and refuses to be drawn on the issue of compensation.

However, several traders arrived with books and till receipts to substantiate their claims.

Hadi Seleh, 50, owner of the Baguette Bar at 255 Leith Walk said: "I brought my receipts as proof. I've spent every last penny on this business but I don't think I'll last three weeks."

The meeting was arranged by the Edinburgh Federation of Small Businesses, with the aim of setting up a new Leith Walk and Constitution Street Traders Association.

At the end of the meeting traders were invited to join the new association, in the hope that some of the ill feeling aired last night could be turned into some thing positive.

In a statement released earlier Mr Gallagher said similar traders associations had led to positive relations, and that he was "looking forward to working with the newly formed group".


The full article contains 570 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Andrew Kent,

EDINBURGH 30/04/2008 11:48:52
Well at least we will have a nice new train set..... Who needs shops anyway?

Its a disgrace that this project is still being pushed through. I think they should use the rest of their remaining budget to put everything back how it was, oh and maybe the South Suburban as well.
2

JJH,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:15:08
Is there one person in Edinburgh who want's these trams?? Doesn't matter who you speak to - Joe Public or Business, nobody wants them. As per number #1 - STOP NOW - and put everything back to the way it was. THIS IS NOT PROGRESS.
3

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:16:38
#2 I want them
4

Bravetart,

30/04/2008 12:20:12
I guess this left the traders knowing exactly what TIE chiefs think of them.

I wonder how much they are making out of all this. Sensibility would mean the plan should be scrapped and the money put into the existing public transport structure.

And while we are putting the world to rights; tunnel not bridge...
5

hillrunner,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:22:40
#1 and 2 are right - Edinburgh has become a shambolic mess that no one can be proud of - stop the madness now and spend the money on making Edinburgh the city it once was - please don't rip the statues out of George Street - that would surely be a criminal act of vandalism. Has no one in authority got the balls to speak out and agree that the emperor has no clothes on...
6

Heretic_,

30/04/2008 12:24:11
All small businesses should be paid thousands of pounds immediately, by the taxpayer.

(No matter how cr@p their business was in the first place)
7

I love to eat Sellotape,

30/04/2008 12:28:14
Judging from the photo, Willie Gallagher's biggest problem appears to be that he has superglued his hands together.
8

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 30/04/2008 12:33:30
All those people who say the tram project should be stopped are kidding themselves.
There will be disruption, what else do you expect for such a major project ?
Traders are never happy, and look to blame someone else for any downturn in their business, that's a fect.
9

charliegreen,

edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:34:06
#2 I dont want them either, anybody else ?
10

The ghost of Harry Lauder,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:36:37
2 - I want them too
11

Foo,

ejinbara 30/04/2008 12:41:13
#1 & 2, I want them. I don't know anyone against them. All my colleagues are for them.

I understand your fear of change, but it must happen, cities all over the globe progress and as a result often dig up streets and traders just get on with it.

Personally I'm not shopping at any of these shops any more because they have made such a damn fuss over something that is going to be such an amazing benefit to them in the long run. But that's just Edinburgh, stacked to the rafters with moaning minnies!

On the one occasion I have stopped to get something I got parked right outside the shop I wanted, no probs. There's tons of spaces, even on a Saturday.

As for Hi-Fi corner, there's never been parking outside that place, what a joke he is. Half of these shops are closing because they suck.
12

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 30/04/2008 12:45:48
I want them , and more lines . Much of the mess in Edinburgh is due to the anti-car antics of Labour .
13

Hamish B,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:45:55
If they stopped hiring cowboy workers who take breaks every 5 minutes and don't work on weekends then that would be ghalf the battle. What we need is to hire foreign workers from Germany or anywhere else as long as they can get the work done efficiently and quickly. We are all sick of things taking so long to construct- if this trams project was in Hong Kong or Berlin, it would take less than half the time so why not get workers from abroad to do big projects like this. They will certainly not slack off as much and will get the job done properly. Just watch the workers on shandwick place, one guy will do one job very slow and there are 5 PAID OBSERVERS WHO ARE GETTING PAID TO DO SOD ALL EXCEPT TO WATCH!!ANYONE COULD DO THAT. This attitude needs to change!!!!.
14

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 30/04/2008 12:46:24
My thoughts exactly #12. I know loads of people who are supportive of the trams, these anti trammies don't get out much methinks
15

Coach,

Suburbs 30/04/2008 12:49:04
Businesses should have forseen the effects and be aware of the trams flying right past to the more up market shops and shopping centres. The midlothian shops have seen this for years with Straiton and Cameron Toll and now Kinnarid. Leith needs a lift and now when the local traders have gone the City of Edinburgh Council will step in and upgrade the area, more suitable to having a new tram pass by. Leith is a hole and needs regeneration, looks like it will be sooner than you think. Traders could all be tram drivers.
16

PaulB,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:57:51
I can't wait for the trams - everyone knew well in advance this would be a complicated project. It seems to be going pretty much to plan so far and to be well organised. As previous posters (?) have said, you cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. And many of the businesses now complaining never had parking spaces outside their doors - they always relied on passing trade. Trade which is still passing today.
17

Bob 2,

30/04/2008 12:58:00
"Trams chiefs anger traders after leaving meeting early"

a wee bit naughty of the EN to use this headlines, Mr Gallagher excused himself from the meeting after only 45 minutes to tend to his ill wife.

But the other 2 should be ashamed, quite happy to take the Posts and the salary.

"There's little more we can do because of the budget we have to work with but there may be ways to stretch the way it's used."....hold on they've got £500m to play with.
Will Mr Gallacher and Co be giving up there bonuses?
Think Not
18

Liz,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:59:56
#15
There seems to be a large discrepancy here, you say you know loads of people who are supporting this tram. I like many others have yet to meet anyone who supports this project - most sensible and educated people I know are able to weigh up the relative benefits and costs and realise that we have a huge (but new and shiny) white elephant.

This is nothing to do with being pro/anti public transport this is more to do with realising just how little we are getting for such large disruption.

This tram line is going to do little to solve the real problems with transport around Edinburgh. For a fraction of the cost we could have had the south-suburban route back which would have been a great idea and could have provided a real difference to people for minimal disruption and cost. Other things like more Continental style buses (those that do not arrive in queues as we would not queue up waiting for people to get on and off and file past the driver).

I went into town recently (on my bike as I was feeling healthy) and was stunned at the massive scale of the disruption the whole thing is a farce. And then the Council have the cheek to turn around to us and wonder why no one bothers with going to the City Centre any more.
19

Bob 2,

30/04/2008 13:06:07
17 PaulB,Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:57:51
I can't wait for the trams - everyone knew well in advance this would be a complicated project.

Please be corrected, Yes we all knew it would be a complicated project.

But if TIE had told the truth in the First place,
ie Complete Road Closures etc, do you remember the statement that said there would be only 7 Tramworks of no more than 200m in length, to keep traffic flowing.

Only for TIE after they started digging to say that they need to close COMPLETE streets off, some up to 1000m in length.

Talk about misleading the Public.

As previous posters (?) have said, you cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs....

17 PaulB...Great attitude towards the Shops that are laying off staff and some closing up.

Will some of these shops ever reopen.

Hopefully 17 PaulB you never get called into your bosses office to get the Chop.
These are real people employing and supporting families

Not someone palying with their Toy Train Set !!!
20

scotsol,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:09:44
If the Leith traders would only show the sort of energy and imagination in running their shops that they seem to be putting into their efforts to screw money out of the trams, Leith Walk would be the greatest shopping experience in the world.
21

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:12:18
Well we all know who is to blame for this mess - THE SNP. They are the ones who authorised this project - let's not forget it was part of their manifesto to scrap the tram project. So we all know where the blame lies. Any clown that voted for these idiots should hang their head in shame. I saw right through their manifesto lies and put my cross elsewhere on the ballot paper - anyone with any sense could see their manifesto was purely to pull in votes, and totally unworkable. The SNP should now resign for their failures and allow another party to take charge of Scotland before we end like another third world country.
22

Detector,

30/04/2008 13:13:44
It is interesting to note that not one person in favour of the trams has actually put forward an argument other than, "well, other cities in Europe have them. Look how advanced they are." That is not an argument, but an indication of your acceptance of any political argument. Have no doubt, the only reason for the trams in the first place was for certain individuals to have a legacy as a Councillor. Oh, and for the "well, we can carry more people on the trams than the bus" argument, please have a rethink in what you are actually saying and how you have come to say it. Remember the monorail episode in the Simpsons! Just because Shelbyville has them, isn't an argument for having a Tram. Also, just because a consultant said that more people would be carried on the tram fails to consider the remit of the consultant, and who paid them for their report. If a tram were to break down (only one route, remember) then what use would it be. Who will use them? What are the oportunity costs for keeping an annual budget for them - more school closures? Lastly, if you think your Council actually understands what it is they have done, remember not too far in the past a consultants report on tolls for Edinburgh stated that an inner circle and outer circle was not a workable option (they sent this report out to those who opposed it and said they were going ahead with it on the recommendation of that report), yet they went ahead an acted on it. They also (illegally) tried to hamper the vote by using your taxpayers money to put up YES ON TOLLS signs, or do you tram supporters really understand what it is you are actually in for!
Thank goodness I moved out of Edinburgh (the new Springfield!)
23

Bob 2,

30/04/2008 13:14:51
Gorgie Tony

wasn't this Project voted through by the other Political parties.....could be called Democracy..think we still live in one ....well so we think.
24

Detector,

30/04/2008 13:15:44
#22 - perfect example of "removing all doubt". Try looking back at the facts before you get it grossly wrong.
25

Gorgie_Tony,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:16:33
#24 - the SNP are in charge of the country and it was them that authorised this project - they are the ones to blame.
26

Jane Plane,

30/04/2008 13:17:26
No 19 & 22.

You're both right. Its one thing dealing with what people feel and want, but we need to stick to fact. Its not about wanting or not wanting trams as such, its the fact that we dont want trams at a stupid cost both in monetary terms and in disruption to business - and for what ? One line with 12 stops ? How will that help. I'd have to get a bus to get a tram !!

And for the SNP to (presumably) win votes on the basis of 'scrap the trams' is beyond belief. It must stick in the throat of every voter who gave them their vote believing that they would carry it out. And have they ever bothered to explain why they didnt? Or where the extra 1000 police are?
27

Foo,

ejinbara 30/04/2008 13:19:51
19 - Liz. Hello Liz, I'm Foo. I am a senior financial analyst and regularly travel the world. In my own modest opinion I am "sensible and educated".

I support the tram network.

Supporting the tram network doesn't come down to lacking sensible thought or education, which is what I think you are implying.

Perhaps we simply have more vision than people such as yourself?
28

Bob 2,

30/04/2008 13:20:30
think you'll find its the politicians (MSPs),

didn't they have a DEMOCRATIC vote were the majority of MSPs voted for this.

Democracy works in mysterious ways.

Personally I wont benefit from the TRAMs, if anything my buses will either be delayed by the trams or maybe even curtailed as they goto some of the Tram destinations.
29

Old Reekies Big Team,

30/04/2008 13:22:41
Bring in ROMANOV!!
30

Bob 2,

30/04/2008 13:24:40
no28

I am a senior financial analyst and regularly travel the world. In my own modest opinion I am "sensible and educated".

Must correct you, unless someone has already beaten me to it

Maybe you should read Information on the Trams.

Currently they are contructing a SINGLE TRAM LINE.

A network would cover the whole city, ie the Current Lothian Buses services.

Cross City Journies in many cases, unlike the Tram line, that will see passengers having to get on/off trams/buses to make what was once a single journey.!
31

leith trader,

Leith 30/04/2008 13:26:32
I was at the meeting. It was heartbreaking. These are not rich people, they are ordinary folk trying to make a living. It is clear the the people who voted for this had no idea of the disruption it would cost; they had no idea of the cost to the business. If you had been to the meeting, seen people close to tears as their livilihood has been destroyed by those representatives there to protect them; you could have nothing but sympathy.
32

Foo,

ejinbara 30/04/2008 13:26:50
#23 - Thanks for the laugh. You actually used an episode of the Simpsons to draw a conclusion on our network!? Very funny.

A tram can hold 200 people. A bus can hold 75 odd.

Trams do not spew out diesel/are better for the environment.

Trams have a dedicated line meaning the first steps in removing the farce that are the greenways can begin.

Every other city that had trams installed has reacted positively (according to actual studies, unlike your detailed analysis of the Simpsons). They also had the naysayers similar to you.

I've extensive expereince of busses and years of tram use in Europe and Australia. My opinion is that trams are better.

There's a few benefits to start with.
33

Hooly Chunk,

Constitution Street 30/04/2008 13:27:29
#12 From your sympathetic comments you clearly do not work for yourself and so do not have the day to day worries the businesses in Leith Walk and Constitution Street are being forced to deal with as a result of a badly managed, poorly communicated and generally unpopular project. I think you should reconsider making such sweeping statements and perhaps pop in to some of the businesses you so eloquently suggest "suck." There, I am sure, you will be shown the clear downturn in trading related to the ongoing mess outside their shops and businesses which severely restricts the available parking for deliveries and customers alike.

I own a business in Constitution Street and although the work outside has only recently commenced we are already affected by the mess from the works and the general inconvenience to the business. I attended the meeting last night and had you done the same you would have perhaps gleaned a small appreciation of how the tram works are causing all manner of upset to business owners.

It may well be the case that you only shop in the very centre of Edinburgh where the shopping options can be found in any number of cities across the UK. The businesses in Leith Walk and Constitution Street are under so much threat that you could be riding along in your lovely new tram in 2011/2012 sailing passed countless empty units with the corresponding loss of revenue from VAT,PAYE etc to the government and rendering a significant area of the city a business no go area.

Change is a very good thing but not when the changes are detrimental to so many.

34

Foo,

ejinbara 30/04/2008 13:28:38
#31 - Don't nitpick.
35

Foo,

ejinbara 30/04/2008 13:30:20
#34 - Sorry you're wrong. I am self employed. I just don't make a huge song and dance because there are roadworks outside my business.
36

PaulB,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:31:14
#20 I have lived near Leith walk for years, and there have always been lots of empty shops - only recenlty have enterprising Polish people come along and opened new bsuinesses. My point is that these businesses have always relied on passing trade, and that people are still passing by the shops, people who like me live on or close to the walk - whether they think there is anything worth buying there is another matter. The trams will make a huge improvfement and lead to new businesses opening to replace those who did not have the foresight to realise there would be some siruption during the construciton phase.I am smart and educated, and I want the trams as soon as possibe. Do traders anywhere in edinburgh who make large profits offer to give some of their excess funds to the coucil? No, did not think so.
37

The Judge,

30/04/2008 13:34:54
#28 could you tell me where this network is? I only see a single tramLINE not a network.

GorgieTony you know fine well it was New Labour and the rest of them that forced the tramLINE on Edinburgh, their only reason was to give the SNP a bloody nose on their first day at work, nothing more nothing less. Anyway shouldn't you be reporting the "feral youth" for dropping crisp packets in Dalry?

Willie Gallagher and TIE have told lies from the very start its a bit rich of him to promise not to tell any more.

#31 In many cases you already have to change buses to make a cross city journey, the tramLINE won't solve any problems it'll only contribute to more congestion.
38

Lionheart,

30/04/2008 13:41:08
To quote:

You can't make an omelette with breaking eggs!

Surely they knew it would cause major disruption when it was first discussed.
39

Hooly Chunk,

Constitution Street 30/04/2008 13:45:10
#36 Good for you being self-employed - which part of the tram works are you being affected by since you're not making a song and dance?

It might also be the case that you are not so significantly affected by the tram works when compared to say a coffee shop, pub or restaurant.

I have also experienced the trams in places like Melbourne, where the city was almost built to accomodate trams making them successful and popular but also cities like Manchester and Dublin where despite the spin suggesting they have been very popular that has not been the case.
40

Detector,

30/04/2008 13:46:11
#33 Foo - at least a better argued response than most.

a tram holds more than a bus, but there are more buses on the roads and more areas they will go to - they are not restricted to one line with minimal stops.

True, buses use diesel, but as trams use electricity, they are not environmentally free from polluting - it just removes the pollution from the tram network to another area. However, the money put into the tram could have been used (and I agree with you) to make the bus network (there is no tram network - they pulled out of that idea due to the rising costs) more environmental with use of newer technologies.

Because trams have a dedicated line, they cannot go outwith that line. They, in effect, present a worse solution that a greenway - you would find it difficult driving on a tramway, and you will find it takes up more space (they are not removing the buses, and I presume at least some greenways on tram routes will have to remain in any case. If so, where is the benefit? They are still working out how people are to dismount the tram in certain areas without the danger of being run over - money well spent.)

I agree - there are cities with trams for which it works well, but that is not an argument but an observation. Each city preents its unique facts and challenges. Edinburgh's problem is its use of space - there really is not much space to work with, and as a result, what little space is available currently is no longer available - the trams are packed in against the bus network and current car users (which I think will cause more delays than resolutions).

Can't argue with your experience. I only refer to the fact that each city presents a unique set of problems. That is the real point the Simpsons episode was trying to make. You may recall, it was a company promoting the trams (and actually convincing the Council it needed them to be a "city of the future") that made your argument about other cities having trams and how more adv
41

Dragonlord,

30/04/2008 13:48:05
26# How wrong can someone be? Yes the SNP were against the trams, BUT they did not get the majority needed to scrap them. The ones to blame are the Lib Dems and Labour. All those that voted for these parties are to blame!


Can some Pro tram expert tell me how one stop on Princess st makes travelling easier? How tram lines in the middle of the road, make it easier to board than a bus? How they will fill the tram outwith the rush hour?


Tie tells lies and we suffer for it, while they make money and laugh at us.
42

Made_In _Leith,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:50:39
#31 Foo (of something?)

These 12 environmentally friendly trams (wind/solar/wave powered?), carrying 2400 travellers at any given time will replace the No 22 LRT service which carries approximately 1200 at peak times. Looks like a waste of power to me.
43

Jane Plane,

30/04/2008 13:54:45
#43

It may be true that the SNP didn't get the majority they required, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they bluffed the public by claiming that if they were voted into power that they would scrap the trams.

If they knew at the time that they were not able to do this without the support of other parties, there should have been more clarity at that time as most people were led to believe that they had the ultimate say so if elected.

Thats the part that irks those who voted for them.
44

LUVMACITY,

EDINBURGH 30/04/2008 13:55:45
I WANT THEM TOO.
45

Optimus Prime,

Cybertron 30/04/2008 13:56:04
BUILD IT AND PEOPLE WILL COME............
46

Liz,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:56:20
#33
> A tram can hold 200 people. A bus can hold 75 odd.

True, and that is very nice, but if we were to get some modern buses in the City - maybe those nice bendy ones, capacity would be improved. I am also surprised by the lack of double deck buses in Europe - could it be they are inefficient (with regards the time taken to loading/unloading).

> Trams do not spew out diesel/are better for the environment.
Also true but no better than electric buses (see next point also)

> Trams have a dedicated line meaning the first steps in removing the farce that are the greenways can begin.

Electric buses can go wherever they were needed and would not be restricted to any particular fixed route - surely that would be an advantage?

> Every other city that had trams installed has reacted positively (according to actual studies, unlike your detailed analysis of the Simpsons). They also had the naysayers similar to you.

So we should get one just because other Cities have them? There are plenty of places that do not have them they do ok.

> I've extensive expereince of busses and years of tram use in Europe and Australia. My opinion is that trams are better.
I agree, fundamentally Trams are an excellent made of transport I was in Stuttgart a few years ago and found them excellent there for example. The problem is that is particular one is phenomenally expensive and personally I believe that the money could be far better spent in a way that would benefit the entire City rather than such a small proportion as this line is going to. Personally I think the decision to not open up the South Suburban route is a mistake as for a relatively small amount of money it could have made a big difference to travelling around the South of the City. This tram is effectivly replacing the most frequently served bus route in Edinburgh.
47

PaulB,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:57:23
The sooner the 22 bus is scrapped the better - there are far too many of them, but they are always packed - cannot believe how many there are on Princes Street at any one time. The trams will be a huge improvement. Princes Street could not physically take any more buses anyway.
48

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:01:25
PaulB(49) - I don't see anyone on here suggesting that Princes Street should physically take more buses but your argument that there is no more room for buses, yet you think there is room for two tramlines, is bizarre.
49

Liz,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:02:34
#49
We do not need more buses, we need better managed buses.
50

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:04:39
While I am sure there are faults at the cooncil tie, the consultants being used etc, the management of the project has been given a clean bill of health from Audity Scotland. I love it when tie are accused of being incompetent etc but a lot of the counter arguments relate to taking the word of a Baguette Shop owner and the writers of the Simpsons. On this basis should we not be investing in web slinging technology so we can swing to work a la spiderman.

The crux of the matter has always been do the benefits stack up against the high costs of providing transport infrastructure. The decision has been taken that it does. End of story. Only time will tell now.
51

THE BPRENTICE,

30/04/2008 14:06:49
As toothless as it is - at least the Edinburgh Federation of Small Businesses is trying.

Make no bones about it - the tram work is DEVASTATING!!

Most of the pubs down Leith Walk have not been able to pay their VAT returns - some haven't paid them for the last 3 or 4 quarters.

Pubs like Dizzies just off Leith Walk went under before the work started because the economy was already on the slow-down and their prices were possibly too cheap to be cost effective, with too many boozers in Edinburgh and crippling overheads.

Allegedly the Cabbage and Ribs went under after a vat inspection...it was the straw that broke the camel's back. The authorities don't seem to care - the council act like warlords and the hmrc railroad over small businesses that need help...not bullying.

Another thing is the fact that the buildings on Leith Walk were built on sand...yes, that's SAND!! There is not a decent foundation under the shops - so the trenches being made in the road has made significantly noticeable cracks on the frontage of shops - I know of hairdresser businesses that have spent good money on making their shop frontages looking nice....only for them now to be ruined.

And while I'm on my high horse - the council say that pubs are not retail businesses, so they are not due as much compensation as the actual retail buisnesses. WTF!!?? Just look up the Gin Act 1700's on wiki and you see the background to pubs being started - it specifically mentions them being retail businesses.

Hi-Fi Corner's Colin Mackenzie accusing TIE of "corporate vandalism" is spot on...but the govt. are the warlords sending the vandals out to play...where's the accountablility?

All the tram money should have been spent on improving the roads up north - improved infrastucture would help the scottish economy and minimise the number of deaths claimed on the likes of the A9.
52

Jane Plane,

30/04/2008 14:11:24
#52

I appreciate what you are saying but with examples such as the millenium dome, the scottish parliament itself and the 2012 Olympics looming, is it any wonder that we find ourselves sceptical about the whole sorry project?
53

PaulB,

edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:12:01
#50 Actually my argument was that once all the route 22 buses were removed, Princes Street would be that much quieter traffic wise - leaving room for trams!
54

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:12:04
43
Dragonlord.

When you go shopping by bus on Princes Street how many stops do you use.

Answer One coming in one coming out. That equals 2.

How many tram stops will there be on Princes Street. One east one west. That equals 2.

Then there will be those at Shandwick Place and St Andrew Square. Plenty for most people I'd say.


55

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:13:42
Scallywag (52) - I am sorry to correct you but the benefits have not been shown to stack up because the benefits are attributed in their entirety to journey time savings but there is still no traffic management scheme to demonstrate how those savings are to be achieved.

Many people have complained that the SNP did not scrap the scheme as it had promised. My complaint would be that at least the previous government said approval of the project would be subject to a "robust business case". Unfortunately, the SNP seemed to drop the word "robust" altogether and just settled for a business case!
56

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:16:16
PaulB (55) - I think you might just be disappointed in that the vast majority of buses are to remain on Princes Street. However, we shall have six lanes given over to traffic instead of four and narrower pavements to boot.
57

Optimus Prime,

Cybertron 30/04/2008 14:16:51
BUILD IT AND PEOPLE WILL COME......
58

TRAM MAN,

Tram Depot 30/04/2008 14:18:28
Need to crack a few eggs to make an Omelette folks.......
59

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:19:36
Tram Man (6) - quite correct but you normally have to pay for the eggs you break.
60

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:19:52
54
However the Welsh Pariament, the Millenium Stadium and Arsenal's new ground all went of without a hitch. Most large motorway contracts are issued these days as design and build contracts and generally come in on budget and on time. The problem with the projects you mention is that the politicians were/are highly involved. Whether they are any good or not, at least tie have been given permission to get on with it without too much political interference.
61

TRAM MAN,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:26:22
# 61

Not if you own the farm.....
62

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:26:49
Sarah B
Sorry to be pedantic but I said the decision has been taken that the benefits stack up - not that this is the right or the wrong decision or based on all possible evidence.
As I keep saying we are passed all that and I'm with you that lessons can be learned for next time. However remeber that too much analysis leads to paralysis and that is something Edinburgh and Scotland have suffered from for years.

63

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:30:54
Sarah B

Oh now you are confusing us all again. The vast majority of buses are to remain on Princes Street. So there is no devistation of the bus service as described by other posters, merely an integration of public transport services with an additional mode added to the existing and award winning bus service

This news will please Dragonlord as he can still use as many bus stops as he wants.
64

mystic,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:40:18
#22 Ha, what a t0sser! Got the facts all wrong.
65

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:40:37
Yep, and a good way to ensure that lessons are learned is to beat the politicians over the head about the tram project.

I vaguely remember Phil Wheeler making some comment a while ago along the lines of, "if we had known then what we know now, then certain things would have been different". I don't think he was suggesting that the tram scheme would not have received approval, but that the route might have been different and that, I think would have quelled some of the argument.

On the other hand, it is the tendency of politicians to jump too early with support for anything they think sounds "strategically advantageous/environmentally friendly", etc. Then, as the disadvantages emerge, they are generally unwilling to withdraw that support, for fear of being accused of doing a U-turn.

The lesson to politicians is know thoroughly what you are supporting in the first place because the electorate might come back and bite you sometime in the future if you don't.
66

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:42:56
Scallywag (65) - as I understand it, in the region of 80% of buses currently on Princes Street will be there post-tram commencement. As far as I am aware, what is to happen to bus services everywhere else in the city is not yet known.
67

The Mrs,

East Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:58:37
I wonder how much my council tax will go up in the next few years to pay for a tram service that will come nowhere near the East of Edinburgh?
68

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 15:24:20
69.

How much of my council tax is paying for services in East Edinburgh as I never use any council services there as I live in the west of the city. Of course to get into the city centre and connect to the trams you can always jump on the train at the two new railways stations at Brunstane an Newcriaghall use the park ride at the latter or catch the numerous No 26 buses that head your way, none of which are any benefit to me.
69

My opinions count for more than yours,

because I'm special 30/04/2008 15:30:24
I don't care about the trams.
70

SamSung,

here 30/04/2008 15:32:51
Hard to believe anyone actually wants the trams.
I have never heard anybody talking favourably about them.

Evening News should run a vote to find out,would be interesting to see the results.
71

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 15:35:51
Sarah B

We are agreed, if more people hounded their councillors then the more they might actually examine what is being put in front of them. However, do you have any idea the amount of stuf a councillor has to get through. I used to know a run of the mill jobbing councillor and almost daily, to their home address, they got a full bagful of paper letter, reports etc.
The reality is that why politicians may come up with the grand concepts they rely on others to do their research etc and then they regurgitate spout what they are being told. If the research doesn't meet with there overall concept then they either drop it or find something that justifies their position.

Thats the way power and policy works. Decisions small and large are not always made on purely objective grounds. As discussed earlier, if you analyse things hard enough we would never step foot across our front doors and probably wouldn't have a front door in the first place as the cost of a house is madeness!!
I'm guessing that there are very few forensic accountants seeking to take up the reigns of power at a local and national level.
72

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 15:37:35
72
I've never heard anyone speaking about someone called Sam Sung. I don't believe you exist. Maybe the EEN should run a pole to see if we can establish if you are real or not.
73

ACS,

St Andrews 30/04/2008 15:57:54
Substitute your residential street for Leith Walk. Now imagine that a length of your street is closed off for tram works and there's a gaping hole in front of your house. You are unable to access your property by car, so the school run gets a bit difficult. The binmen can't access your property so you have to cart your rubbish to a neighbouring street. No deliveries are possible and you have to collect your mail from the post office. Your friends and your children's friends don't come round anymore because its such a hassle and its a constant struggle to keep things clean and presentable. Now supposing this situation has existed since last August, how pi**ed off with the tram company, Council and politicians would you be by now? Although hypothetical, this scenario illustrates but a fraction of the problems faced by Leith Walk traders. Yes, some of the shops may "suck", but some of the traders are employing 100 or so staff each. So if businesses on Leith Walk and Constitution Street fail, the fallout won't just be confined to the business owners. It should be in the interests of all of us to support our independent traders through this difficult trading period.
74

Norma,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 16:08:21
Sorry I have not read all the previouse comments - time restraints! So if no one has already adressed the question I was wondering how if trams are so progressive, were they scrapped 50 years ago?
75

Foo,

ejinbara 30/04/2008 16:16:48
Why argue? They are happening, like it or not.

No one here can make the slightest bit of difference, so why don't you all go home and have a nice bit of cake instead?
76

SamSung,

30/04/2008 16:26:19
#74 do you mean Poll?
77

THE BPRENTICE,

30/04/2008 16:27:41
The tram system is great in Dublin but it was paid for with money from europe AND it hasn't been a panacea for Dublin's traffic problems.....it just looks smart.

This is an example of money being spent on trams to try and make Edinburgh 'world class'....shame on the politicians that have let this happen - the money could have been spent on a lot better projects within Scotland.
78

Dragonlord,

30/04/2008 16:35:58
70# In the future how much of my council tax will be used to keep this white elephant running? It's no use to me.
79

JML,

30/04/2008 16:54:27
Foo loves the sound of his own voice and will argue with everyone until they give up and agree with him.

No matter how well-travelled/cultured/yaddahyaddah you keep telling us you are people will disagree.

It's a simple fact that the Scottish Government agencies are not equipped to cope with disruption like this. Other countries might have better travel and organisation, but the disruption was managed better.
80

Foo,

ejinbara 30/04/2008 17:02:07
# 81 -Oh! That's cutting JML, bad hair day is it?

Whatever, you are wrong and anyway, there's nothing you can do to stop the trams.
81

JML,

30/04/2008 17:05:21
Your witticism is astounding.

I think you underestimate the Leith community and their tenacity.
82

SPG,

edinburgh 30/04/2008 17:07:43
The tram is being build and that is that. While the shoppies were told honestly they may not survive they should just remember its not just them having to put up with with a bit of inconvenience. Another 45 minutes wouldn't change that fact.
83

JML,

30/04/2008 17:15:37
SPG - I think losing your business and livelihood is a bit more than a bit of inconvenience, don't you??!!

They could have had the courtesy to stay and listen to the concerns of the people that are directly affected by this shambles.
84

BusOff,

West Linton 30/04/2008 17:20:34
'Is it Me, Is it Me'

Yippee 2 years time - Hundreds of Edinburgh Folk jostle at the tram stops to get onboard the super tram, all bound for the airport I guess - hang on though I am going to the Western General! Whoops
How do I get to the New Royal Infirmary! Whoops
Can anyone tell me how I get to the Sick Childrens Hospital!

TAKE THE BUS!!!!!!!
85

Graham P,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 17:29:03
What is Hadi Seleh bellyaching about? The Baguette Bar has only been open for a few weeks! If his takings are low, then that is because he chose to open a cafe two doors down from an established cafe and across the street from another established cafe. And if roadworks stop customers coming to his cafe (which I find highly unlikely, considering that customers will be coming on foot), then why did he choose to open on Leith Walk during a lengthy period of roadworks?
86

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 17:31:07
#1 - very well said.

I have been saying it for ages, but the time really has come to have this idiotic, money-burning, hair-brained project to be cancelled without further notice.

Willie Gallagher, all who work at TIE who support this project and all the ignoramuses who have allowed this shambolic project to be born in the first place should resign with immediate effect - you should all be thouroughly ashamed of yourselves.

After cancellation, any remaining funds should be used to put Edinburgh back to how it was and compensate IN FULL every business that has suffered due to this absurd 'vision' of a group of absolute imbeciles.

If this project is allowed to continue it will fast become our national disgrace.





87

Pilrig.,

Livingston 30/04/2008 17:38:10
14 - an amatuer time and motion man writes.
88

Pilrig.,

Livingston 30/04/2008 17:42:03
16 yes , wouldn't Leith be wonderful withoot all those horrible Leithers....