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SNP told 'show us the money' as alternative to PFI launched

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Published Date: 20 May 2008
EDINBURGH'S education leader today called for urgent action to fund new city schools as the Scottish Government unveiled its long-awaited plans to replace private finance initiatives.
Councillor Marilyne MacLaren said she backed plans for an alternative funding mechanism as "better value to the public purse".

But she warned large sums of money were needed to ensure the Capital's new schools programme could go ahead.

The SNP
promised at last year's elections to replace PFI/PPP with a non-profit making Scottish Futures Trust, which would fund infrastructure investment in schools, hospitals and roads.

Today First Minister Alex Salmond and Finance Secretary John Swinney published the strategic business case for the SFT and announced the creation of a new public sector company to take the initiative forward.

They said up to £150m would be released each year for increased investment in infrastructure through greater partnership, improved preparation and handling of projects, and better value finance, including the non-profit distribution model.

The original idea behind the SFT was to raise money by issuing bonds. But the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities has argued the Scottish Government has no powers to issue bonds.

So it now plans to harness the existing bond-issuing power of local councils to enable a Scotland-wide municipal bond to fund infrastructure projects.

Speaking at the Infrastructure Investment in Scotland conference at Heriot-Watt University, Mr Salmond said:

"The development of the Scottish Futures Trust is the way forward, offering both better value finance and secure investment."

"By releasing up to £150 million each year for increased investment, we can ensure more resources for our public infrastructure compared to wasteful PFI."

Edinburgh has five schools waiting to be refurbished or replaced.

But Portobello, James Gillespie's and Boroughmuir high schools, along with St John's Primary and St Crispin's Special School, are all in limbo because the city council cannot afford the £165m needed to upgrade them.

Cllr MacLaren said more information was urgently needed on how local authorities can apply to the Scottish Futures Trust for money to fund projects and there was a lack of detail on how the new funding mechanism will work.

And she said the city council will only be able to afford to rebuild the "wave three" schools if the Scottish Government provides 80 per cent of the money, whether through the SFT or some other means.

"We are talking about costs of £165 million," she said. "By the time we actually start building, I would be extremely surprised if it's not going to be considerably more than that.

"Even with our contributions of 20 per cent, we are going to need an awful lot of money and we are just one local authority.

"Non-profit distribution does not mean that we don't need help from the Scottish Government."





The full article contains 478 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Vivas,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 10:12:21
She says that *where* exactly ?

Another classic misquote/misrepresentation from the EEN/Northbritishman. In so far as she says anything at all, it's:

...said she backed plans for an alternative funding mechanism as "better value to the public purse". (so she likes the idea)

..but she warned large sums of money were needed to ensure the Capital's new schools programme could go ahead. (no sh|t sherlock !)
2

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 10:33:29
Can I just ask why 20-30 years ago schools were looked after - none were rich but they were maintained in a general state of repair. Why there is no longer money for this?

I can answer; The Government at every level spends so much money now on Collection and Administration to create cushie jobs for unemployables that there is no money left for core services.

If you sacked 50% of the administration and got rid of their guilt edged pensions then we would have PLENTY of money for new schools etc.


I do not pay taxes to fund large bloated government. I, and I suspect I am not alone, am quite happy to pay taxes if they are collected, administered and distributed efficiently and actually go into Health, Education, and Defence (along with a few others too!).

Somebody really needs to grab the public sector by the spheres and get it totally under control in order to relieve the public of large government that is incapable of doing anything.
3

steveh3,

20/05/2008 11:38:47
Cllr MacLaren likes the idea, wants to know how to apply to get the cash, this is what she is quoted as saying, the headlines dont match the content.
Just report the news dont put in your bias or sex up the head lines.
4

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 20/05/2008 12:05:24
More pie in the sky. How are they going to generate the money? I hesitate to suggest a John Bull printing outfit.
5

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 12:17:26
5 Fakey Federalist really a unionist

All PFI projects are badly mismanaged from a tax payers point of view.
ALL without exception rips off the tax payer which when added together cost us billions.
PFI has absolutely no saving graces for the public
NONE AT ALL.
6

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 12:19:54
6

We pay more taxation than anybody anywhere in the world if we cant generate enough money now we never will. Its not the generation of the money thats the problem its the way the money that is generated is managed. Private companies dealing with public funding make up costs as they go along and the prats dealing with the funding dont question or argue about its not in their job description.
7

cosmo,

edinburgh 20/05/2008 12:23:29
For PFI to be a success risk must be placed on the private party. Currently they see plenty of reward should the venture be successful but face no loss if it fails. If the government wants to get some private sector efficiency into its project it needs a private sector risk system to encourage efficiency.
8

DAVID,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 12:26:18
Anyone seen the article in the most recent Private Eye that outlines how Mussolini used a PFI-type "buy now, pay later" scheme to hoodwink Italians in the 30s?

The general point is that PFI creates a huge "first call" on your budget for future years. This creates a massive fixed future liability that is very difficult to re-negotiate and gives no flexibility for future financial planning.
9

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 12:38:57
10

Known throughout the known world as a rip off.
10

gorgeousgorgieboy,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 12:41:10
Youre all wrong!

PFI works and is the best thing that has happened to infrastructuire in this country for decades.

Look at public funded project - Parliament, Trams Bridges.... Need I say more.
11

Listening,

20/05/2008 12:46:15
If it wasn't for PFI we wouldn't have the new schools and hospitals we have now.

It is a necessary evil that we cannot do without.

It would be interesting to see where the SNP will exactly get the money to replace this.

The public purse just does not have enough money to do everything, ultimately a lot will be done by PPP/PFI so make your choice, what will it be if not schools and hospitals?
12

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 20/05/2008 13:05:38
Well, there is a headline that completely misses the point.

This is worth reading - http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2278997.0.0.php
13

John PM,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 13:16:52
Labour should be utterly ashamed of their PFI schemes which bankrupt the public purse to pay the private sector enormous dividends. The SNP is trying to do something better, thankfully.
14

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 20/05/2008 13:20:51
8

Foulkes Off, nonsense.
15

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 20/05/2008 13:21:22
16

John PM, explain how please.
16

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 13:28:20
This article creates the impression that the Scottish Futures Trust (SFT) is just to be a kind of Scottish Treasury, issuing fixed interest bonds.

If that is so, it seems the arguments for an element of private sector incentives in public service delivery is being abandoned by Alex Salmond & Co.

The SFT was sold as eliminating profiteering by effective monopolies. The argument clearly needs to be developed to do justice both to the unfashionable municipal socialism ideals and the capacities of the private sector.

It does seem that the policy is still being developed on the hoof, possible because the Civil Service didn't think the SNP would win the election and so didn't look at their policies in any detail.
17

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 20/05/2008 13:31:58
There are three superb articles which took the front page of the Sunday Herald on the 18th.

This is the one - http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2278998.0.an_offbalance_sheet_scam_to_write_off.php
18

Epicuras,

20/05/2008 13:39:16
We don't actually need any new schools - check the demographics Marilyne; school rolls are collapsing in Edinburgh as families simply can't afford to live in the city. An ongoing rolling programme of refurbishment would sort out the schools we have at a fraction of the cost of new ones (and we'd still own them, instead of having to do it all again in 25/30 years) - the main priority seems to be how much can we get for the land now for and sod the long-term problems - we''ll be long gone in 30 years.
This is a national and local discrace; and I'm not just talking about Marilyne!
19

Edward,

20/05/2008 14:12:28
#18
Suggest you read the investigative article in the Sunday Herald which exposed the PFI swindle
Labour trully are scum!
20

HughB,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 14:22:27
Surely the Liberals know where the money has gone - into the bottomless pit called the Trams, which they, Labour and the Tories set up.

They could also find billions of Scotlands money going south to Westminster from Scottish oil.

Come on Scotsman, you know where the money is.
21

,

20/05/2008 14:29:09
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22

Epicuras,

20/05/2008 14:38:02
RE: #25, so the Royal Edinburgh Hospital obviously now has internet access for it's sectioned patients - interesting use of public money instead of spending it on buildings etc
23

,

20/05/2008 15:03:46
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24

Edward,

20/05/2008 15:03:56
#25 Vincent-W
Typical twist on reality
No one has anything against profit
Its the method of funding that we are against
PFI only is benificial to the private companies who are
participating in PFI projects. It is not beficial to the tax payer, which includes you!
Its all very well crowing on about how brilliant a school is thats built under PFI, whats not so brilliant is that the money that has to be paid isnt very clever.
An examplye being Hairmyres Hospital in East Kilbride, for Equity of just £100 invested will earn £89 million in dividends over 30 years, while half a million pounds of equity in the new Edinburgh Royal Infirmary is expected to win dividends of £168m!
Thr true cost of the actuall construction is a lot less than what we, thaxpayer is going to have to pay!
But what do you care, your part of the problem!
25

Miss H,

20/05/2008 15:04:49
2 They weren't. That's why so many of them were falling apart.
26

,

20/05/2008 15:05:48
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27

Edward,

20/05/2008 15:07:48
The truth about PFI and how Labour and the Libdems swindled billions from the Scottish taxpayer is
here : http://tinyurl.com/5qtbcl
Read and learn
28

Miss H,

20/05/2008 15:09:57
25 You're having a laugh aren't you?
29

Ugly George,

20/05/2008 15:10:47
The article talks about the creatiion of "a new public sector company"

Is this company going to carry out the construction of schools etc. or is it gong to contract construction companies to do so?
30

,

20/05/2008 15:28:01
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31

,

20/05/2008 15:29:43
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32

,

20/05/2008 15:36:36
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33

brownlie,

20/05/2008 16:20:44
36 Mirrorman

Elegant and eloquent contribution. I'm glad you've come along as I thought I was the only intelligent union poster on here today.
34

Edward,

20/05/2008 16:23:33
#36 Mirror Man
How amusing
You obviously disagree that Labour are just scum
You have no problem with Labour lining the pockets of their donors. You have no problem with Labour ensuring that the tax payer (thats you as well) pays through the nose for something that can be prvided at a lot les cost and are happy to ensure long lasting profits and inflated dividends to private industry. You obviously a labour supporter that no longer believes in socialism, if you did , you wouldnt be supporting New Labour
35

Edward,

20/05/2008 16:28:34
From the Sunday Herald :
the Cuthberts' calculations suggest the projects are very poor value for money. The Edinburgh Infirmary, Hairmyres and James Watt College could all have been built for half the cost if the money had been borrowed in the normal way from the government's national loan fund, they say, and huge savings could have also been made on the Highland schools, the Perth offices and the Hereford hospital.

"What this suggests about the costs of PFI is extremely worrying," said Jim Cuthbert. "No country, whether it be Scotland or the UK as a whole, could long support funding its major public infrastructure on a one-for-the-price-of-two' basis.

"There has clearly been a systemic failure in the existing mechanisms designed to secure value for money from PFI schemes"

36

,

20/05/2008 16:32:24
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37

,

20/05/2008 16:34:54
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38

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 20/05/2008 16:51:23
So, the Scottish Futures Trust would get private firms to carry-out contracts, without making a profit, but they would be offered cheap loans in order to see the work through.

Maybe I don't understand what is being proposed. But if I do, it is not going to work - what is the point? Who on earth is going to perform works, at cost?
39

,

20/05/2008 17:04:03
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40

Listening,

20/05/2008 17:04:40
This cannot work, or can it? We can only wait to see.

Meanwhile it seems that the vast majority here are so blinkered with political bias that they can't see what good has been done with PPP/PFI.

There is nothing to show that publicly funded projects would have been any different. Wages woould still need to be paid and materials purchased. Increasing market costs would still have escalated the costs. The only difference is the profit masde by the private companies. Of course they are legally commited to a repair and maintenance program that no council could match and even if they could it would come at an even higher cost.

Time to sit back, put political opinions aside and look at it impartially.

Unfortunatley there are many of you incapable of such a thing.
41

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 20/05/2008 17:20:29
#45 Listening

I wouldn't think it would make much diference how projects were funded, they would still be negociated, and over-seen by the same public servants who are demostrably capable of making tremendous muddles, and seem to be accountable to no-one. Probably because there masters haven't got a clue what they should be held accountable for.
42

Edward,

20/05/2008 17:23:18
#41 Vincent-W
Over the last 30 years or so it was down to Labour to provide good schooling, from the providing the buildings, through to providing the materials and the skills to teach
As you rightly point out the reality is different with aging schools.
The Tories come along and go for PFI/PPP, on paper its good, as we theoretically we have some else picking up the tab and paying for it all, even managing it after completion. So we end up with nice clean schools (or any other building). The reality is, there is no such thing as a free lunch! It has to be paid for. These companies just don’t do these PFI projects because of their support in the community, its all about the bottom line in what’s in it for them and their shareholders. Along came Labour, who, prior to the 1997 elections were very critical of PPP/PFI. But when they came to power thy found that this system of finance would be a cash cow for their backers and donors, so they went out of their way to promote and expand on it further.

You mentioned that you had a ‘fantastic new school’ on time and on budget
It would be interesting to see and hear your ideas about ‘on budget’ You see the thing about PFI/PPP is not about what is paid on completion, its about the long term contract, which is usually 30 years. Which is why buildings such as Schools and Hospitals built under PFI, the actual cost is not what the taxpayer pay’s. PFI is the project that you just keep paying for, for the length of the agreed contract, so cost of
Couple of hundred millions, turns into Billions and a tidy ongoing profit.

Im not against profit, in fact Im all for it, but in a commercial sense
The problem that we have in this country, thanks to the Tories and perpetuated by Labour is that everything and I mean everything is seen as a business, All be it a School, Hospital or your local post office. Labour threw out the idea of certain things being for the public service, there is no longer public service, its just a busine
43

Edward,

20/05/2008 17:25:57
The idea that the SNP Government have is very sound
It works well in Canada and in California, where projects such as Schools, Hospitals and Highways, being built by local authorities can apply for funding and ensuring that the equity remains within government hands. Any profit made (and yes they have profits) its rolled back into the fund
44

,

20/05/2008 18:14:47
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45

,

20/05/2008 18:17:12
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46

,

20/05/2008 18:22:44
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47

Brian M,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 18:28:49
She is "Edinburgh's Education leader".

Is she an expert in "education"?

She is no more than a bumped up local politician
48

WL,

livingston 20/05/2008 18:43:04
If Edinburgh needs more schools they should build them. They charge the people a council tax to do that - plus other things they would like to do.
49

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 20/05/2008 18:53:23
If you consider the Old Royal Infirmary in Lauriston Place in Edinburgh, we have lost our money three times due to private enterprise being allowed to profit enormously from public service property.

One. The sale of a public site and it being (horrendously) developed privately. Loss of development profit for public government and public use.

Two. The purchase of land with flood problems miles away from town the implementing of a sub standard build(which was double price and half the quality) , with a highly inneficient corridor layout, and cheap services suppling two beds instead of one.

Three. Having to pay back 17 times more than the original figures for acquisition and build cost over a thirty year period to "make it appear to be off the books".

This was a scam from the beginning and all that I had said years ago is now merely proving it to be the scam that it is.

SCAM


SCAM



SCAM

The scam will cost 4 Billion, every year.




SCAM

50

,

20/05/2008 19:09:10
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51

,

20/05/2008 19:18:24
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52

,

20/05/2008 20:34:09
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53

Nikostratos,

20/05/2008 20:42:06
#58 AM2

Thats more like it AM2 be a man get the Barsta#d' Take him out............Show these mad dogs they can't get away with it............

The Scotsman must have a privacy code which has been violated and they have a duty of care to ensure this isn't allowed to happen to Individuals private data.

AM2 nobody said standing up for the 'Union' was going to be easy. especially against sc#m such some of the madder Nationalists.

54

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 20:48:11
58

You sad sad sad little man.
A troll by any other name is still a troll.
55

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 20:50:07
59

You lie in front of yer kids? disgraceful.
56

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 20/05/2008 20:52:00
59

I have a serious problem with lying gits motivated by politics.
57

Nikostratos,

20/05/2008 21:05:55
AM2

the only other clue i can give is that

The candyman is obviously a fan of 1971 film W#lly Wonka & the Chocolate Factory.



Who can take a sunrise,
Sprinkle it with dew?
Cover it in chocolate and a miracle or two
The candyman, the candyman can,
The candyman can 'cause he mixes it with love
and makes the world taste good

Who can take a rainbow,
Wrap it in a sigh?
Soak it in the sun and make the stra'bry lemon pie
The candyman? The candyman can
The candyman can 'cause he mixes it with love
and makes the world taste good
58

Nikostratos,

20/05/2008 21:09:28
AM2

why don't you do what i do sometimes and use someone else wireless connection all you have to is find unencrypted one. and then the only isp address etc would be to another pc..........Easy peasy

Mind i also have access to many other pcs as well....
59

Listening,

20/05/2008 22:29:09
#49

Very colourful and you have just lost any credibility you think you might have had!!
60

,

21/05/2008 12:50:57
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61

Arrow,

edinburgh 21/05/2008 13:49:05
#15 hit the Herald web site and found it very interesting and revaling. probably none of the Hootsman readers have read it but herewith an extract:

"Equity of just £100 invested in rebuilding Hairmyres Hospital in East Kilbride is projected to earn £89 million in dividends over 30 years, while half a million pounds of equity in the new Edinburgh Royal Infirmary is expected to win dividends of £168m.

PFI was introduced under the Conservative prime minister, John Major, in 1992 and later pursued by Gordon Brown after he became chancellor in 1997. It was designed as a way of injecting private capital into public projects in an attempt to get debts off the Treasury's books.

The idea was that capital would be raised on the private market to fund developments that would then be built and run by private firms. Although the projects would cost public authorities little up-front, they would then have to pay for them in instalments over the next 25 or 30 years".

Buy now and pass the cost on to the weans. not very sustainable to use the current buzz word.

 

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