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Saturday, 5th December 2009 Change Date

Anger as pupils are taught in corridors at crowded primary

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Published Date: 02 October 2009
CHILDREN are being taught in corridors, eating lunch in classrooms and taking playtimes in "shifts" at an overcrowded primary which has seen an influx of new pupils this year.
A cloakroom has also had to be turned into another teaching area at Sciennes Primary to cope with the extra demand on space caused by the record number of primary-ones going into the school.

The conditions at the school were described as "unaccept
able" by one local MSP, while parents said they felt the problems could undermine their children's education.

One parent, whose child started P1 this term, said: "It's still a good school, but this flood of children into P1 is just beyond the pale. The staff are doing all they can, of course, but it is undermining a lot of their good work.

"One of the things that appealed about Sciennes in the first place is that it is obviously a very caring and supportive environment, but this situation is threatening to destroy that whole ethos."

Another parent, who volunteers at the school, said: "The P1 nativity will have to have parents hanging out of the window this year as there's so many of them."

The school – which is the biggest primary in Edinburgh, with 643 pupils – is struggling to cope with the aftermath of a ruling which saw parents win the right to send their children to the school – despite it being classed as full.

The ruling forced the city council to increase class sizes to 30, going against its policy – and national "guidance" – of capping all P1 classes at 25.

Ten sets of parents managed to get their out-of-catchment children into the school by taking their cases to an appeals committee, resulting in growing class sizes.

Parents say they originally expected an intake of 75 new children but had 111 when the new term started. One class has 40 children in the one room on a "team teaching" basis.

Norman Brown, chairman of the school's parent council, said: "We already had to run a shift system for playtime and lunchtime because there are more children than the playground and dining hall can cope with.

" Lots of parents have told me they are concerned about the impact this will have on their children.

"I can't see a short-term solution. This is going to be a school which operates at maximum capacity and there's a chance we will operate over capacity in the future."

Melanie Main, whose daughter is in P4, added: "It's completely out of control. It's not benefiting the rest of the school community that some parents have been able to force this situation."

Margo Macdonald, independent MSP for the Lothians, said: "This is not acceptable, but the council is very short of money. It's going to take time to build new schools, and there's not enough room in Sciennes for temporary classrooms.

"We need to improve communication between schools, the council and parents, so they are aware of this situation when they apply for a school place.

"

Earlier this year, the council urged the Scottish Government to introduce new legislation to make the maximum of 25 in P1 classes legally binding. The legislation will be brought in next year.

Councillor Marilyne MacLaren, the city's education leader, said: "Despite the increased numbers, the staff are ensuring that every pupil gets a fantastic education.

"Sciennes is equipped for large numbers but we must have some control to stop it bursting at the seems. That's why I called for the government to give us legal protection to limit P1 numbers which they now plan to do."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 October 2009 10:42 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh school closures
 
1

Cumberland Sausage,

02/10/2009 11:54:00
the standadrs of education is not what it was when i was at school they dont have a chance any more thesedays, god held the little blighters
2

alex patersons English teacher,

02/10/2009 11:58:35
1.
oh deer.
3

Big bob 79,

02/10/2009 12:02:13
The council needs to re address its priorites, I do not agree with the way they are spending my tax money and I will be voting accordingly. This is a shocking state of affairs
4

DAVID,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 12:04:50
Three thoughts:

1) More evidence to counter the myth that Scottish education is the best in the world. It's clearly not.

2) More evidence that lightweights like Marilyne McLaren and Jenny Dawe are unfit to govern the city.

3) Is it any wonder that those that can afford it choose to send their kids to private schools?
5

Jocknroll,

Dunfermline 02/10/2009 12:07:57
#1 #2

I'm so glad I didn't go to either of your schools. You can't spell or punctuate and you probably think grammar is your mother's mother.

While the situation at school is not ideal, kids are more resilient than you would imagine and probably won't be too affected by the problems. They'll adapt. It's probably more stressful for the staff.

I'd be interested to know why out-of-catchment children were allowed to attend Sciennes. Are there sound reasons for it or is it a status thing for some of the parents?
6

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

02/10/2009 12:08:41
"The P1 nativity will have to have parents hanging out of the window this year as there's so many of them."

The obvious solution is to have Nativity in shifts. Some at xmas and some a few weeks later.
7

alex patersons English teacher,

02/10/2009 12:13:06
5.
i went to grandma school, i learned to make chocolate nan bread.
8

Duncan in Edinburgh,

02/10/2009 12:13:44
#5 You're clearly not familiar with #2's work.
9

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 02/10/2009 12:14:12
This is going backwards instead of forwards,80 years ago it may have been acceptable,but not today.
10

PG,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 12:14:29
Not sure who I am most disgusted with. The incompetent council or the selfish, middle class wannabe parents who are hell bent on getting their kids into the latest "must have" school even if that means destroying the very thing they so covet. I bet none of them back out and opt to send their child somewhere less crowded, they'll just happily moan it's everyone elses fault that the standard of education in that school has gone down. Sad.
11

Foo,

02/10/2009 12:15:46
#5

Similarly, I'm glad I didn't go to your school. Were you not taught the meaning of irony? Please re-read #2.
12

The Lone Haranguer,

02/10/2009 12:16:50
Margo Macdonald, independent MSP for the Lothians, said: "This is not acceptable, but the council is very short of money."

No money for schools, but plenty for trams. Draw your own conclusions and vote accordingly. I will.
13

Confucius,

02/10/2009 12:21:26
Lone Haranguer, thank you for shamelessly bringing trams into the debate. For the first time in ages there's no tram story today - are you suffering withdrawal symptoms?
14

roadstohell,

02/10/2009 12:35:16
Is this flood of kiddies into the new P1 class unexpected ? Or is it because their Mummies & Daddies can't afford to send them Private, and now rush in droves to a "good " primary school, and now things are "just not good enough" ???? MMhhhh ?
15

Logie Almond,

02/10/2009 12:40:19
#12. It's nothing to do with money. It is the result of the court case referred to in the article which stopped the council restricting the intake. It is interesting that parents would rather send their children to a cramped Victorian building rather than a more modern school with smaller class sizes.
16

Foo,

02/10/2009 12:44:48
#14

State school education is a right that every child has, regardless of their parents bank balance.

I find it strange that you criticise private school parents with an argument that is based on the fact that were they not to take their children out of state schools, the system would collapse through sheer weight of numbers.

Or are you just jealous of people who have more money than you? (Bingo!)
17

roadstohell,

02/10/2009 12:49:10
It's not difficult to have more money than me, and I'm not the jealous type.

Ah people now shout about their rights regardless of their bank balance, mmmhh yes BUT they had/have the choices, now the shoe is on a different kettle of fish
18

tsongkhapa,

EDINBURGH 02/10/2009 12:49:11
Funny, my first child attended a school outside the catchment area and the second was refused, even after an appeal. On what grounds were the children from outside the catchment area allowed into the school?
19

digestive biscuits returns,

02/10/2009 12:49:43
They've got it easy kids nowadays.

When I was at school, there were 38 of us squeezed into one urinal, we had to share the same pencil and the teachers' chalk was made out of these white dogs' jobbies you used to get.
20

PandaFlesh,

02/10/2009 12:52:50
"CHILDREN are being taught in corridors" - man that's one way to enter the hall of fame!!!
21

Lil Miss,

02/10/2009 12:56:43
Children being taught in corridors.... That was one of the excuses to close down Westburn... bet they won't close Sciennes down.
22

FF,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 12:59:15
It has nothing to do with standards or funding. Quite simply, Sciennes is a victim of its own success.

It can either restrict intake to an a manageable, but arbitrary, number and reject a whole bunch of students just because they don't have the space. Or they can do what they are doing since the ruling, which is to restrict intake to an unmanageable, but still arbitrary, number and reject a slightly smaller number of students.
23

,

02/10/2009 13:07:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

SeanW,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 13:09:39
This is yet another example of Marilyne Maclaren's failure to manage the Education facilities in our city.

The proposed closure of 4 other schools will simply lead to this becoming the norm.

This council's attempts at filling all schools to capacity to the detriment of the children's education and the deterioration of standards across the school estate is political suicide for them.

Parents will very easily identify the lack of benefits in this action and the serious affects on the future of this city as a result of the SNP/Lib Dem Slash and Burn tactics.

Marilyne Maclaren and friends announced at a recent Consultation meeting that on top of the £14 million savings she has to make this year, there will be a further £14 million in cuts the year after that!!

None of your children are in a stable educational environment as long is the hatchet is at the head of this department!
25

rob hadnum,

02/10/2009 13:11:01
Kids in Africa would be delighted with what's on offer at Sciennes, so what's the problem? At my primary, we got taught in an annex for a year and it was really nice.

#5, ha ha soh bypass.
26

Cumberland Sausage,

02/10/2009 13:16:12
#5 Too easy! I'm sorry I lured you in. I clearly have nothing better to do on my lunch break. Were I still at school, my teacher would've given me 100 lines to do: "I must not be a saddo".
27

Mikey,

Carstairs Junction 02/10/2009 13:17:15
SeanW, you really don't have a clue, do you? The school is full because of some parents going to court to get their kids into a certain school while living outside the catchment area. The case was found in the parents favour and now the moronic parents will destroy what was originally a great school.

People will easily identify a lack of brains on your part or simple unionist lying. I'm not sure which so maybe you'll tell us? Are you stupid, a unionist or both?
28

Confucius,

02/10/2009 13:25:41
Why doesn't the school simply refuse to accept any more children once all the places are full? This works for cinemas, aeroplanes, etc. so what's the problem?

Does anyone really think it's a good idea to keep stuffing kids into a school like sardines? I'm not normally a champion of health and safety, but surely this comes into it too, in the case of a fire or other emergency.
29

SeanW,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 13:30:33
#27

I am fully aware of why the school is full.
If you read what I said you will see that I was pointing out that this would become the norm on the basis of the council's school closure plans.

I am sure most of the readers here are smart enough to understand this.

Not sure which part you suggest I am lying about. Maybe you can explain.
30

Tynietiger,

02/10/2009 13:52:43
Once the minimum class sizes of 25 becomes legally binding the problem should be resolved.

Confucius is not very wise if he doesn't realise that the problem is that parents outwith the catchment are have won a legal right to send their kids to any school they like and this has led to overcrowding and anarchy at the more popular schools.

Cant blame the parents for trying to get best for their kids but equally can't blame the council only the previous Scottish executive who didn't legislate properly for minimum class sizes.

Fortunately the SNP government is closing this loophole.

31

Telly,

02/10/2009 13:52:48
Why are we spending money on these stupid trams .... and closing schools to fund them?
32

12345,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 14:00:55
It is encouraging that Marilyne MacLaren welcomes the legal limiting of P1 class numbers at 25. This will surely mean that she will ensure this limit is adhered to, rather than exceeded by use of team teaching, and properly take this into account when considering her decision on the currently proposed closure of 4 schools. Specifically, if Drumbrae closes, Clermiston and East Craigs would not be able to meet these new class size limits.
33

Tynietiger,

02/10/2009 14:01:14
SeanW

Parents are often to blame for schools being closed.

Burdiehouse is likely to close as roll is falling year on year and main reason is parents in 500 houses in The Murrays will not send their kids to the nearest primary school and does not involve crossing a main road.
34

NorT,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 14:15:43
Any school should take pupils from its catchment area first and only after that if there are spaces should they be offered to outsiders. The law should be changed to this effect and there should be a legla limit on the number in a class and the number of classes.
35

Vandala,

02/10/2009 14:26:06
#31. Err...we're not.
36

keit011,

02/10/2009 14:27:31
the funding of trams royal security and Scottish msps cost us all.it always shows on schools and hospitals and council services i bet the councilors are okay when it comes to the things they claim for on the expenses.but i do think you should use the school closest your house how are the kids going to find local pals if the school is 6 or 7 miles away
37

Pantaloon,

02/10/2009 14:48:35
#30

Not really.

After LYING their way through the election campaign (class sixes of 18 anyone???), they have shown that they cannot be trusted on education issues. A class size of 25 is a cop out, all the Nats and Salmonds Angels that frequent this site, as well as Hapless Hyslop all know that.

And we all know it too!

38

Flash67,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 14:59:19
I still can't believe there is still the debate over which is the most important: class size or teacher quality. A glance at any one of the attainment charts for Edinburgh's (or anywhere else) schools shows that the biggest match is with parental background, as measured by school free meal entitlement. Sciennes -and private schools -have good results because of their average parents intelligence and resources not the teaching, which I'm sure is as good as most schools in Edinburgh.
As far as the parental choice vs class size debate goes - there is no point in having a policy with no legislation to back it up. The Scottish Government showed at best huge naivety at allowing this 'cart before the horse' scenario to happen.
Anyway, the whole thing is a moot point - with the current and forthcoming funding squeeze, the council's determination to squeeze as many pupils into as few schools with as few teachers as possible is a 'fait accompli'.
39

Peedie Paws,

02/10/2009 15:27:49
I hope to God there isn't a fire at the school. Imagine pupils and staff alike having to dodge round table and chairs in the corridor whilst trying to escape. This is not acceptable and is probably against health & safety regulations. Certainly, its the parents who went to court to get a ruling that their children could attend the school - they should be the ones to hang their heads in shame.
40

Flash67,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 15:35:46
39 - As far as I know there are no tables and chairs in the corridors and no classes being taught there either. This is a tale of journalistic / parental exaggeration.
41

babyboom 2004,

02/10/2009 16:10:40
It has to be pointed out that ALL schools in the area were grossly oversubscibed this year. Sciennes also had to carry the excess from James Gillespies up the road as they had 86 catchment children enrolling for 50 places.
The 10 children who got in on appeal also already had siblings at the school.
My children are now at seperate schools which is neither ideal for me getting them both there and back on time, nor for attending school events.
For those of you harping on about rich people not using private education because of the recession, take note that ALL the private schools were full and turning away P1 applicants this year.
This is an exceptionally large yeargroup that the council knew about and should have made provision for a long time ago instead of hoping the problem would go away!!
42

Cracker06,

Livingston 02/10/2009 16:13:54
#28 "Why doesn't the school simply refuse to accept any more children once all the places are full? This works for cinemas, aeroplanes, etc. so what's the problem?"

They did, and then the court overturned the decision which allowed parents from outside the school catchment area to send their kids there. Had the court used some common sense this problem wouldn't have occurred.
43

Brian M,

Edinburgh 02/10/2009 17:25:00
I think they should change the use of the trams from public transport to travelling schools/classrooms
44

Auld-Yin,

Musselburgh 02/10/2009 18:49:40
I went to Sciennes in the early 1960's and the class sizes were over 30 then. Never harmed my edumacashun.

While smaller class sizes are desirable the school should be given the help and support to ensure that the children there are not at a disadvantage over the size of their class. The major factor here will be the quality of the teachers - good teaching will give well educated pupils.

A-Y
45

Bachus,

02/10/2009 19:49:13
Thank you PG @#10.
Succinct and to the point.

Surely the solution is that the trams should be used as class rooms (off peak of course).

#41.Your argument involves more than a little straw clutching,sorry to hear that you could not buy your in to to the private sector.
46

saltiresfan,

02/10/2009 20:23:47
The point about lunch in the classrooms and taking breaks in shifts is slightly misleading. Sciennes have been doing that for several years now.
They're a big school and a popular school. Hardly their fault the tribunals keep finding for the parents and forcing them to take yet more children.
47

Garry RR,

02/10/2009 20:29:20
43 The kids involved will probably have left school before your travelling classrooms are up and running.
48

Bachus,

02/10/2009 20:31:07
..........................their fault that the tribunals.
49

Bachus,

02/10/2009 20:36:10
* Note the use of "that"

(used to indicate a person, thing, idea, state, event, time, remark, etc., as pointed out or present, mentioned before, supposed to be understood, or by way of emphasis)
50

Bachus,

02/10/2009 20:38:01
#47.
And only be qualified to drive them.
51

jock the kiwi,

02/10/2009 21:18:12
as a nation it is more important that we educate the mass flow of immigrants
who cares about the scottish children and there future

next time you vote you might want to think about it more carefully
52

graham finlayson,

edinburgh 02/10/2009 21:34:17
when they move the evening news to glasgow. we should boycott and never buy it again......
53

The new waspy,

02/10/2009 22:50:41
#23
When I was at school I used to get the bus with my dad and we got of at his work and I walked three miles to school. After school I walked three miles to meet him and waited till he finished then got the bus back home with him. I don't think he really loved me as we only lived 100 yards from my school.

SOB

 

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