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Tories want to make English jealous of Scots, says Straw

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Published Date:
14 July 2007
UK Justice Minister Jack Straw has accused Tory MPs of trying to make English voters jealous of Scotland.
He ridiculed their call for "English votes for English laws", warning it would mean the House of Commons Speaker having to rule line by line on Bills whether Scots MPs should be allowed to vote.

Mr Straw, who is also the UK minister responsible for constitutional affairs, was speaking in Edinburgh after meeting First Minister Alex Salmond and touring the Scottish Parliament.

The talks with Mr Salmond included the question of whether Tony Blair's deal with Libya could lead to the transfer of Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali al Megrahi, currently serving a life sentence in Scotland.

Mr Straw said any deal on such a transfer would have to involve the agreement of the Scottish Executive. He also stressed his desire for co-operation between Westminster and Holyrood.

He said: "We want a relationship that is constructive with the Scottish Executive, as we do with the other devolved administrations."

And Mr Straw turned his fire on Tory MPs for recent claims that Scotland was prospering at England's expense and their call for Scottish MPs to be banned from voting on English issues in the Commons.

He said: "Some rash members of the Conservative Party are trying to create anxiety among English voters that Scotland is somehow favoured and essentially create jealousy in England that Scotland does better and we should therefore exclude Scottish MPs from voting on so-called English matters. It is extraordinary that the Conservative Party, which used to be the one most wedded to the Union, should be doing this. The consequence of what some Conservatives are proposing is to break the Union."

He cited the experience of Irish home rule in 1893, when Irish MPs at Westminster were not allowed to vote on issues which were devolved to Ireland.

He said: "Two things happened. When they examined this in detail it fell apart in their hands, and secondly it gave the Irish the message - if they needed it - that they were to be treated as second-class citizens."

Mr Straw said that when the House of Commons was deciding on tuition fees for students in England and Wales in 2004, SNP leader Alex Salmond and Linlithgow Labour MP Tam Dalyell - both of whom regularly abstained on issues of purely English concern - had taken part in the vote for very good reasons.

"Although the Bill's territorial extent was England and Wales, its potential consequences also extended to Scotland," he said.

He ridiculed the suggestion the Commons should introduce a rule to stop Scottish MPs voting on legislation that did not affect their constituents directly.

He said: "If you had one of these rules, what would happen is as you were going through a Bill line by line the Speaker would be asked to certify this line or that amendment was one on which Scots members could vote.

"It is a piece of political bankruptcy by the Conservatives. And it is very irresponsible. They know it cannot work, it has not worked and it would not work."

He said the proposal represented a retreat by the Conservatives south of the Border.

Page 1 of 1

 
1

archie23,

14/07/2007 10:58:45

The English will always find some reason to be jealous of the Scots...and the Irish...and the French... etc

2

Agent 99,

14/07/2007 11:12:14

>>They know it cannot work, it has not worked and it would not work...

Could be equally applied to the union.

3

Callum,

Edinburgh 14/07/2007 11:27:29

I am !00% per cent that the Conservatives will win the next Election. Scotland should vote to end the union and have a real Government in Edinburgh.

Vote SNP

4

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 11:45:32

4. Callum, Edinburgh / 12:27pm 14 Jul 2007 "I am !00% per cent that the Conservatives will win the next Election. Scotland should vote to end the union and have a real Government in Edinburgh."

No chance of that happening outside of your imagination. Here's the reality of the situation 3/4 of Scots voters will oppose and reject the SNP yet again and when the SNP's fickle protest vote that came from the SSP dissipates and partly from anti-Blair sentiment (as it surely will) the SNP will next time drift into history.

5

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 11:53:20

Jack Straw did well to attack the Southern Tories on this act of divisive madness. If the Scots Tories followed this line it would be an act of political suicide.

We only have to listen to the likes of Boris Johnson and his misleading anti-Scottish statements to know what they are trying to do. It is disturbing that the Tory heirarchy tolerate that clown in their party, since he clearly does not reflect the party line on the Union.

Scots Tories have been surprisingly quiet on the same issue, where were their mouths when this was going on within their party? Johnson is out to destroy the Union and all semblance of Britishness. It is ironic that the little-Englander Conservatives in the South are suddenly the party of English Nationalism.

6

Eve,

Scotland 14/07/2007 12:01:41

#5. David Ex-Pat : If you've left and are not planning to come back, then your very selfish to have all us Scots staying in a union that's making us miserable.

I'm sorry, BUT the Union will end soon, it's not just SNP supporter that want Scottish Independence. I was read an interesting journal article which claimed that deep down inside most Scots want independence, it's just a question of making sure their ready to vote "YES".

I was too young to vote for devolution BUT it does a great job of showing us that we are just as capable of running thing than any other country.

P.S. Scot Nats have always existed you can't get rid of us, we'll existed even when the union ends (to make sure it stays in the past), under one mane or another.


P.S.P.S. I'm no member of any political party, Just a voter, who has seen some excellent progress in recent months.

7

Tally,

England 14/07/2007 12:05:27

Jack Straw is quite right, English votes on English laws is unworkable. The Conservatives have been asked repeatedly to explain how it will work but they refuse to talk about it. If they really do believe in EVOEM then they are stupid.
An English Parliament with the same powers as Scotland and hopefully the same for Northern Ireland and Wales would save the union for as long as people want it to survive. It seems to be unionists and especially New Labour that have brought the uk to breaking point.Time for them to do something democratic and ask the English what they want.

8

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 12:15:02

7. Eve, Scotland / 1:01pm 14 Jul 2007 #5. "David Ex-Pat : If you've left and are not planning to come back, then your very selfish to have all us Scots staying in a union that's making us miserable."

Considering that I am merely posted abroad on an assignment, own a flat in Edinburgh's Newington, remain a patriotic citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and hold citizenship of no other nation in the world. I have every right to vote and campaign against the SNP.

I think it is you that is being very selfish actually to ignore the wishes of the voting majority who reject the SNP at every single election (including the election 3 months ago) and next time will reject them outright as the anti-Blair and disillusioned SSP protest vote the SNP gained this time suddenly vanishes. It'll be a case of 'Goodbye the SNP you are the missing link'.

By the way you sound like a deluded American. I'd bet good money on that being the case actually.

9

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 12:24:10

8. Durham Lad, England / 1:05pm 14 Jul 2007 "Jack Straw is quite right, English votes on English laws is unworkable. The Conservatives have been asked repeatedly to explain how it will work but they refuse to talk about it"

Yes, and a good thing to hear an English Labour MP calling the Tory bluff on this one.

I personally think these divisions that have appeared within Tory ranks North and South will actually damage the Tory party, since there will is clearly no unity.

The problem with people like Johnson, is that he seems to focus exclusively on the south, how this affects Tory fortunes not only in Scotland but in the North of England would be enough to damage that party and make them unelectable.

10

,

14/07/2007 12:28:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
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11

Ian Campbell,

W Horsley 14/07/2007 12:40:08

Yes, the Conservatives' policy will not work but Jack then ignores the one policy that would work -that is, let the English have their own Parliament. Oh no, says Jack, they can't have that either. Opinion polls in England since last Autumn are running 60% plus in favour of an English Parliament. Our new PM says he will listen to the people. He also signed the Claim of Right for Scotland which recognised the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government that best suits their needs. So what about the English? Should they not be asked what they want? The English are not anti-Scottish but they are not in favour of allowing the Scots to have their cake and eat it, to make their own laws in Scotland and then vote on England's laws as well. The Labour Government's failure to answer the 'English Question' (they would prefer not even to ask it) is the real long-term threat to the Union. But then, if we are believe Mr Brown, any of the British nations has a perfect right to leave the Union if its people wish to do so. Why aren't we having a referendum on the Union?? You know the answer - because our politicians do not after all believe in the the sovereign right of the people.

12

Eve,

Scotland 14/07/2007 12:42:40

#11. David Ex-Pat: Please don't treat me like I'm stupid, I was merely stating that I would be able to vote in the next referendum and that I'm prod that my fellow Scots voted for it.

#9. David Ex-Pat: If you still live over hear WHY do you call yourself Ex-Pat?

I was assuming by your name that you had left and weren't in a hurry to come back.

Everyone who lives in Scotland has the right to vote in a referendum (I've got my finger crossed it's a "YES" result when it happen)

P.S. Please don't treat me like I'm stupid. You won't like it when I start to defend my self.

13

Tally,

England 14/07/2007 12:42:57

Dave Ex-Pat, I'm not hooraying Jack Straw or New Labour, they are a bunch of anti English ratbags as far as i'm concerned.
The push for an English Parliament is coming from the people not the tories. recent polls show 68% in favour of an English Parliament. The whole kit and caboodle at Westminster is addled when it comes to England.
They've tried to carve England in to euro regions (failed) unitary authorities(failed) next is city regions
(will fail) appointing regional ministers (laughable and will fail)anything but recognize England as a sovereign nation within the uk.
The English press is filling up with letters disputing New Labour's assymetric devolution.
New Labour has lost Scotland and Wales, they have lost hundreds of councils in England and they would have a very small majority without Scottish and Welsh MP's. This is the one and only reason they do not want an English Parliament.

14

Ken S.,

England 14/07/2007 13:01:15

Simple solution to West Lothian Question :
Referendum offering straight choice between resumed Union (i.e. no devolution) or independence.


#4. Callum
"I am 100% per cent that the Conservatives will win the next Election. "

There is a body of opinion that reckons a hung parliament is more likely at the next Westminster election.
Two of the factors:
Lab and Tory are competing on the supposed centre ground and it's rather unclear what distinguishes one from the other to attract floating voters;
Maybe fewer Labour MPs of Scottish constituencies.

Actually, if you all vote for SNP , then the West Lothian Question would be less stark, as SNP MPs are principled enough to abstain from voting on England-only matters.
... apart, that is, from any other reason you might have for voting SNP!


#6. David Ex-Pat
..."English Nationalism..."

None of the three main UK parties seems to want to tackle the WLQ. Boris (my MP!) is also a journalist and so launches out on his own little tirades and these cannot be attributed to the Tories as a whole. He may be a political loose cannon but it's great fun not having a grey Party apparatchik in our constituency.

I'm not sure that many of us are English Nationalists, in a way corresponding to Scottish Nationalists. In my case more a matter of having been a British national who was arbitrarily changed to an English national in 1997 and simply wants to regularize the situation.

More than happy to be redesignated as a British national again but that certainly isn't the case with devolution, hence my first point above about Union v Independence but no inbetweeny measures.

15

Erse,

Middle East 14/07/2007 13:33:54

#13 Eve,

He calls himself Ex-Pat because he has had a sex change. He used to be Patricia but now he is David!

16

Danielrober2,

Drifting through outer London 14/07/2007 13:39:03

If I was in the labour party i would be screaming for regional governments. It might not be great, but it will end some of the questioning of the UK, mainly by Northern English MP's (all parties).

Best do it now Labour or the Tories will do it when they win.

17

General-Blood,

I believe in union 14/07/2007 13:42:42

I think it is time that we scots ran the united kingdom. the english have had their chance and what have they dont buck balls it up.

everytime there is a war it is always scottish soldiers that are sent in first.

the english need us more than we need us, just exactly what have england done for us nothing.

18

HEN BROON 4,

ALBA GU BRATH. 14/07/2007 13:56:12

I'm with the General. Abolish Westminster and The House of Lords.
Move the UK parliament to Edinburgh, the rest of the UK would get such a boost from being governed by a statesman such as Alec Salmond.
Scots are natural leaders and would make a much better job of the UK.

19

livilion,

livingston 14/07/2007 14:02:12

16. Danielrober2
They tried it, after Scottish and Welsh devolution London got its assembly but the first Northern region comprehensively knocked back John Prescot's proposal in a referendum and the whole project was subsequently put in the bin.

20

godwinson,

Somerset 14/07/2007 14:05:42

That much loved SNP question "what is the Union dividend?" is something increasingly asked in England. We need our own parliament.

In a way I agree with you Hen Broon #18. Alec Salmond has as much right as Gordon to be English FM, in as he has no mandate south of the border.

The Union in its present form cannot/will not survive. The man of straw has his head in the sand like all Unionists.

21

Ken S.,

England 14/07/2007 14:07:35

#16. Danielrober2,
"... regional governments....end some of the questioning of the UK, mainly by Northern English MPs"

Don't think you'll find that a very popular idea. In particular it was the North-east that resoundingly rejected a proposal for such a thing.

#17. General-Blood
#18. HEN BROON

Oooooh, now you're being provocative!!!! ;-)

... but Alex Salmond for PM... mmmm.... now that would be something.

22

,

14/07/2007 14:14:01
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23

HEN BROON 4,

ALBA GU BRATH. 14/07/2007 14:17:19

KEN S.
Interesting stats on the elections at www.electionresources.org - the main one being that, surprisingly, the SNP actually had more of a mandate from the electorate than Labour did in the last elections - the overall votes for SNP (1.30m) were higher than Labour's were last time (1.22m). If Labour ruled for 4 years, with fewer votes, then AS has more of a right to rule now. In a minority government, the MSPs from the other parties should remember this when they are pressing the wee voting buttons....You are right Alec Salmond would be an excellent PM. No more coffins from foreign shores.

24

HEN BROON 4,

ALBA GU BRATH. 14/07/2007 14:24:07

Ehhh David Park #22. Buy a news paper, or watch News night, you will find we Scots have done something about it. Firstly dominating Westminster, and getting devolution, and secondly voting in a nationalist government, that will deliver independence, sooner rather than later.
No lectures please from English Nationalists on what to do, take your own advice, or shut the feck up.

25

livilion,

livingston 14/07/2007 14:24:47

18. HEN BROON 4

I reckon by this time that the English establishment ought really to be big enough, wealthy enough and smart enough surely, to be able to make a decent fist of running their own affairs without having to ask us to run their economy for them.

Mind you, that whole house of cards that is the City of London is well overdue for another financial meltdown.

Let Ale'x' Salmond get on with running Scotland and just concentrate on that.

I can't say that I'm in favour of running the UK just for the benefit of the central belt of Scotland at the expense of the southern counties of England.

We must've learned the lessons of where trying to run other folks' countries for them aye ends up.

Why don't we just settle for spending the revenue we generate in Scotland for the common good of the people who choose to live here and contribute to local communities in Scotland?

26

Sanny,

14/07/2007 14:30:57

9. David Ex-Pat:


I’m amazed that someone as stupid as you can be entrusted with an overseas posting! Or are you just trying to wind Eve up?

Before you make any more ill-considered remarks on the drive for independence, I suggest to you that you study Scottish politics over the last century. From your study you will find there has always been a demand for self government in Scotland. Indeed I believe the first demand was around 1709 –Yes, two years after the country was sold “by a parcel of rogues in a nation.”

A little further study will show that when Kier Hardy started the Socialist Party in Glasgow “Scottish Home Rule” was a major policy of the party in 1888. As the Party evolved to the current Labour Party it continued to have Home Rule as a policy until I think the late 50’s. I know that I voted Labour in 51 and 55 and this was because Home rule was on the Labour Party agenda.
Re-construct this URL and examine the Labour Party’s history on Home Rule.
atschool.
eduweb. co. uk/hamish/labbet.html

There are many people who do not support the SNP for a variety of reasons; who nonetheless would support a call for Independence. Obviously, given its history, there are many in the Labour Party. The same is true of the Lib Dems – their leadership is out of touch with the grassroots. Many LD’s want more powers to the Scottish parliament including full fiscal autonomy. A kind of; almost independence. That’s a bit like being slightly pregnant.

Don't be fooled by the Unionist propaganda that everyone who doesn't vote for the SNP is against independence, or for the Union.

Leave young Eve alone or you’ll have the wrath of this column to deal with. I can assure you she is a Scots Lass so your opinion of her being an American is about as idiotic as your views on independence.

13. Eve, Scotland
Just ignore this prat. It would seem he just opens his mouth and lets his belly rumble. Obviously totally unread on

27

HEN BROON 4,

ALBA GU BRATH. 14/07/2007 14:46:28

In a recent interview former foreign secretary Jack Straw made some revealing remarks about the British union. Straw is quoted on the BBC website as saying: "Historically, England called the shots to achieve a union because the union was seen as a way, among others things, of amplifying England's power worldwide. And the reverse would certainly be true. A broken-up United Kingdom would not be in the interests of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, but especially not England.

Our [England's] voting power in the European Union would diminish. We'd slip down in the world league GDP tables. Our case for staying in the G8 would diminish and there could easily be an assault on our permanent seat in the UN." [security council]

We should be grateful to Straw for his honesty. What he is effectively saying is that countries like Scotland and Wales and other potential independent states such as Cornwall or the Isle of Mann are expected to give up their unique voices in the international community so England can enjoy 'amplified' ie undeserved international status.
The case for union then is simple if, like Gordon Brown, you support England's interests over Scotland's then as Straw says there is an excellent case for retention of the union because it was designed to amplify England's voice and it still does today.
If however you support Scotland's right to have our unique voice heard then the only logical choice is independence.

If the 'cost' of that decision is the loss of Britain's (as Straw points out effectively England's anyway) seat in the UN security council, which the Blair government currently uses to back George Bush's lunatic foreign policy, then I'm sure that is a price well worth paying for any internationally minded Scot.

28

HEN BROON 4,

ALBA GU BRATH. 14/07/2007 14:48:55

#25. Livillion. Of course I agree, the post was a wind up, putting the jack boot on the other foot.

29

taxidriver,

in my taxi 14/07/2007 15:03:47

eve put the gin away and take the rose tinted glasses off.the snp got lucky this time.there will be no referendum and no independence not in our lifetime why? the old question if it aint broke dont fix it springs to mind.the union has worked for over 300 years and will probably work for another 300. my grandad stood shoulder to shoulder with englishmen ,welshmen and ulsterman during world war 2 to keep us free from dictatorship all fought under the union flag.with the global threat from terrorism we need to stand side by side again and defend our country that is great britian

30

Fat Freddys Cat,

14/07/2007 15:29:37

@29

and wha makes you think we cannot stand shouldeto shoulder with England, Wales and Ireland as an independant nation?

yours is just about te worst excuse Ive ever read for retention of the union.

As for 300 years - point me to all the successes that have benefited scotland?

31

I'm no really here,

14/07/2007 16:12:45

He said: "Two things happened. When they examined this in detail it fell apart in their hands, and secondly it gave the Irish the message - if they needed it - that they were to be treated as second-class citizens."

well we can't have Scotland thinking that are being treated as second-class citizens within the UK - oops! too late!

32

Sanny,

14/07/2007 16:13:15

29. taxidriver, in my taxi:

See my comments at 26 they would apply to you as much as Ex-Pat David. A little prayer for you “Dear God please help me keep my big mouth shut until I know what I’m talking about”. Read some history whilst waiting for a fare!.

27. HEN BROON 4

I seem to recall that if the union dissolves the number of Votes England would have in the EU would be 1 or 2 less than the UK has at present. Whereas Scotland’s vote would rise from zero to 7. I think a similar situation would pertain for NI and Wales. So the influence, in the EU, of these islands as a whole would almost double! What is England afraid of? We might choose not to support an action against our interests – like fishing grounds?

33

Ken S.,

England 14/07/2007 16:20:44

#33. Sanny
"...What is England afraid of?..."

England isn't afraid.
It's the UK politicians of the three main parties that are worried.

34

Iain's,

LONDON 14/07/2007 16:42:51

This is just the last straw!

Labour depends on Scottish cannon fodder to keep them in power.

For this reason, they have to give Scotland everything it wants.

Milk them dry while you can! They can afford it!

35

Suomi,

Salo Finland 14/07/2007 16:50:54

I would think that independence is certain, but not because the SNP are now in government.It is the natural state and as the modern Europe evolves then Scotland will be foreced to adjust.Tjhe United Kingdom (union of the crowns) will probably remain but the existing relationship with the other countries in the British Isles will change.Each generation wants different things and the only cetainty is change.We are seeing that as the regional parliments aspåire to greater powers and as many small independent nations prosper within the European Union.

I am very satisfied wityhe performance of the SNP government but independence is not dependent upon one party.Someone on this site pointed out that the unionist perties are out of step with their voters and grass root supporters on this onew.What I look forward to is when the leadership of those parties recognise this.That will happen,otherwise there will be more defections to the SNP.To stop that Labour,Liberals and Conservative leaders need to adapt to the changing world that we live in and stop looking backwards.
Dr Bill Reynolds

36

HEN BROON 4,

ALBA GU BRATH 14/07/2007 16:51:18

#29 taxi driver. Away and bile yer heid, you are living in your pink Empire world that has gone never to return.
The SNP are increasing their membership at the rate of 200 per week. Can the other parties say that?
The SNP have stretched there lead in the polls in front of Labour by another 7 clear points.
The electorate in Scotland have now realised that there is a better way to exist politically, rather than voting for a pig with a red rosette. Confidence is growing daily thanks to the statesmanship of Alec Salmond and his superb team.
74% of Scots now see them selves as Scottish first then British, the Union is a dead duck, get over it. Gordon Brown will never get re-elected as he is a sham and a liar.
By the way. Taxi drivers are the worst drivers on the road, selfish, ignorant and arrogant, it is a reflection of their personality.

37

HEN BROON 4,

ALBA GU BRATH 14/07/2007 16:53:50

#33. SANNY agreed.

38

GD,

Glasgow 14/07/2007 17:00:13

It's true the days of the union are numbered, and it won't wait for a referendum in Scotland either.
The sooner the better is all I can say.

39

Eve,

Scotland 14/07/2007 17:09:28

Pist, here a secret!!!!!! Ssshhhhshhshhh
David Ex-Pat is George Foulkes

40

Philip Watson,

here... 14/07/2007 18:27:08

You could be right Eve! You could indeed be right...

41

Keke,

Aberdeenshire 14/07/2007 18:27:38

The English are already jealous of Scotland .... have you seen the state of London?

42

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 14/07/2007 18:41:31

Union sure!!! Mair like the union pie company. There are four countries who supposedly make up the Union, Scotland-Wales-Ireland-England, the latter one having their fingers in every pie and who have the lions share of everything in the Union. Its time the gravy train for England was well and truly stopped, And PLUNDERED OIL REVENUES recovered with interest.-- Union Sure!!!!

43

Eve,

Scotland 14/07/2007 19:08:06

#43. t.c.e.k.: That's way too many pies!!!!!

Is there no chips with it?

Or deep fried Mars bar for latter.

It's an interesting thought BUT
Don't think they'll be in the mood for giving things back!!!!!

I think we should say that's our part of the Uk's debt paid and make goods of what we've got left.

P.S. Is there evidence of unionism dieing in South Lanarkshire or was it just a dream!!!

44

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 14/07/2007 19:46:00

#43
No there's no chips with it as, as I said England has the lions share.
I, others, and you, shouldn't care about England's moods, they are the ones who did the dirty on us.- and behind our backs too. As for Scots debt to the U.K. I think the reverse applies.
There are many in South Lanarkshire who will endorse my views

45

Eve,

Scotland 14/07/2007 20:39:54

#45. t.c.e.k.: Westminster is who has done the dirty on us, Don't lose sight of that. Westminster can't be trusted. Most English folk are fine some even understand the need for Scottish Independence.

Well there always going to be attached to our a~&* , Not unless you have some bright Idea on how break up land without making the folk in the Scottish boarder homeless.

Needless to say I do not wish for an newly independent Scotland to be at war with a neighbouring country. I'd rather the time was spent rebuilding our nation.

P.S. I worry you've been in that sad wee new town for far too long. I once felt aggressive towards those who believed in the union and when I freed my self from that sad wee new town and I became a much calmer person.

46

,

14/07/2007 21:46:42
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47

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 22:01:38

13. Eve, Scotland / 1:42pm 14 Jul 2007 "don't treat me like I'm stupid, I was merely stating that I would be able to vote in the next referendum and that I'm prod that my fellow Scots voted for it. P.S. Please don't treat me like I'm stupid. You won't like it when I start to defend my self."

Enough of your threats. You'd have to at least brush up on your general English before you could start to joust with me. Frankly I've tilted better.

By the way you sound considerably immature. Run along little Nat person and come back when you have grown into a responsible adult who understands politics and not merely emotive misguided patriotism.

48

nocolony,

falkirk 14/07/2007 22:03:42

All the english unionist mps and half- baked scots , do not want to give up the english colonial power, over there colonies ie n.ireland wales and there biggest one Scotland.

49

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 22:04:27

14. Durham Lad, England, the North where you appear to be from were offered a parliament under Labour, but you voted against it.

The North voted with the Tories on that one. Please explain how you were mistreated in the devolution process if you were offered something but voted against it? I agree a parliament for England - but it just shouldn't be Westminster Parliament!

50

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 22:16:42

15. Ken S., England #6. David Ex-Pat
..."English Nationalism..."

"None of the three main UK parties seems to want to tackle the WLQ. Boris (my MP!) is also a journalist and so launches out on his own little tirades and these cannot be attributed to the Tories as a whole. He may be a political loose cannon but it's great fun not having a grey Party apparatchik in our constituency."

As you state Johnson is a loose cannon but the plain fact is that the Tories have made no attempt to bring him into line and/or obey the party line. I should mention that my brother also lives in that constituency and considers Boris an educated imbecille.

He uses and manipulates statistics that are unproven to prove his point to provoke anger at the Scots. What Boris Johnson divisively vomits onto the page is akin to racism. He is no Unionist Tory, just a little Nationalist.

51

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 22:25:41

26. Sanny "A little further study will show that when Kier Hardy started the Socialist Party in Glasgow “Scottish Home Rule” was a major policy of the party in 1888."

Thanks, but I already know the history of the Labour Party, hardly surprising since one of my family was a leading Glasgow Radical in the 1820 insurrection, and believed the very same things as Andrew Keir Hardie's ill-fated ancestor. Hardie's belief was in having a Scottish Parliament - guess what we have one already, we got under the Scottish Labour Party. I guess you should try and read Labour's history without any slant to the SNP.

52

,

14/07/2007 22:29:45
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53

,

14/07/2007 22:36:45
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54

Fred Forsythe (not the),

Worcestershire 14/07/2007 22:54:54

Keep your English votes on English matters Jack. We want a totally independent Scotland, self-financing, Scottish jobs for the Scots, English jobs for the English and each country buy only it's own services and goods. We want and English parliament and very little interchange with Scotland.
We shall still say good morning and talk occasionally over the fence perhaps, but not go in each other’s houses for a cuppa.
Oh, and by the way Jack you can hop over the wall with your Scottish masters and close the door behind you.
It is getting very bitter I am afraid and although slow to anger we have very long memories. We shall not forget that we trusted those that we thought were friends but ended up being ruled by bitter enemies. The union lasted 300 years I hope that the disunion will last many times that.

55

A.Mackenzie.,

USA 14/07/2007 23:08:03

The Romans set the border by building the largest structure they ever built-- the Wall.So let's see if those in Durham, Cumberland, Northumberland and the town of Berwick want to be Scots or English.Even in Newcastle the accent is somewhat Scottish and their allegiance srtikes me as more directed to Edinburgh than to London

56

David Ex-Pat,

14/07/2007 23:14:35

57. A.Mackenzie., USA, have you ever been to Berwick? Things are not as messed up or divided as you seem to believe way over there in the USA. The people of Berwick have a message for us all, they get along with one another. They are British!

57

yoric,

England 14/07/2007 23:36:28

Jack Straw should be taken to the centre of England and hung for treason.
The real reason Labour is opposed to an English Parliament is because it would confine Labour to the political wilderness for ever.
Labour relies on Scottish/Welsh votes to form a government, and judging by the last Scottish/Welsh election results they seem to be failing there as well.

58

Alan B,

15/07/2007 00:11:28

#59 while i think the current arrangements are unteniable i do not think "The real reason Labour is opposed to an English Parliament is because it would confine Labour to the political wilderness for ever." is the reason. Labour have won the last 3 elections in england even though the last one due to the number of seat not popular vote.

The whole situation has come about as Blair inherited the sp proposals and could not back out of them even though he messed about with the constitutional conventions proposals and embarassed labours own constitutional convenor in scotland by not even consoluting him before annoucning his referencum proposals.

Blair has been particularly poor at reforming constitition, just look at the house of lords. Abolishing peers if fine but he had nothing to replace it with.

Labour had an idea towards regionalisation of england, but again blair did not push the idea and make it happen but was quite happy to let the buffoon prescott screw the project up.

As such it more that labour in england have had no thinkers that have actually come up with any workable proposals beyond the failed idea of regionalisation but have been lumbered by the sp because scotland got its act together after thatcher was seen to screw scotland.

The tories have added to the problem by denying
scotland it parliament and then having to have knew jerk reactions. ie they did not go forward with the sp and work with labour on decent proposals.

Other than independence the solution has to start with sorting out barnett. Fiscal independence for scotland would solve that. Then having an english parliament, using the same mps that represent england in westminster ie they wear to hats.

59

John Brower,

15/07/2007 00:21:49

Who could be jealous of the French ?

60

,

15/07/2007 00:40:34
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61

Doc,

Elgin 15/07/2007 08:22:12

As a Scot that has spent more time working in England than I care to remember. I find that the majority of English Think that we should have total independents.
Plus the majority of English think they should have total independents. The bickering that goes on and on is being instigated by the politicians that sit in Westminster. The problem as far as they are
concerned is, that if we all went independent the majority of them would loose their jobs.
The comments from Jack Straw regarding "The Tories wanting to make the English jealous" is absolute garbage. With comments like that it leaves his sanity a lot to be desired. That goes for the majority of the second rate pretend politicians that sit in Westminster. From both sides of the boarder.

62

eric,

Lothian 15/07/2007 08:36:10

We flatter ourselves too much,The English dont even know where Scotland is on the map.

63

livilion,

livingston 15/07/2007 08:57:17

64. eric, Lothian
How much do you know about what is happening in Wales?

Same idea.

64

livilion,

livingston 15/07/2007 09:12:24

63. snoddy, Elgin

Have you noticed, there's an odd cozying up been going on between the tories particularly in Scotland and the Scottish nationalists, witnessed on programs such as Newsnight Scotland, and even on the floor of the Holyrood debating chamber?

Bella Goldie and Alex Salmond seem to have a 'let's get it right round the Labour party' understanding.

Bella's unabashed flirting with the leader of the SNP,
who'd have thought it?

To the extent that Tavish Scott's party have been all but forgotten, or at any rate effectively disregarded.

Which is nice.

65

livilion,

livingston 15/07/2007 09:30:38

59. yoric, England
Alas poor yorik surely you jest?

What exactly would you use as your evidence for treason against the Lord High Chancellor of Great Britain
and Secretary of State for Justice?

That he was honest(?) about the reason for maintaining the UK being to amplify England's voice in the world, or that he contradicted Lord Foulkes and AM2 that Honest Tony was attempting to do a secret deal with the Libyans over repatriating the Lockerbie bomber in exchange for the medical staff being held in Tripoli.

Or that the logical conclusion of increasing the 80% of time spent on purely English matters at Westminster will inevitably result in three independent nation states on the mainland of Great Britain?

66

livilion,

livingston 15/07/2007 09:48:05

60. Alan B
So what you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, is:
Give England a parliament where MPs also fulfill the same role as MSPs?

I presume, in the interests of equality and fairness, you'd see no issue with Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland having the same?

Give the Scots fiscal autonomy, and again I suppose England, Wales and N.Ireland would expect the same deal?

Sounds to me like you're actually advocating independence?

67

livilion,

livingston 15/07/2007 09:59:24

56. Fred Forsythe (not the)
Sorry pal sounds like cloud cuckoo land moved to Worcester.

""..Hop over the border,... we trusted those that we thought were friends but ended up being ruled by bitter enemies...""

Either you have no understanding of the issues or your history, or you have no understanding of the issues, your history and you are a flaming troll.

68

eric,

lothian 15/07/2007 10:11:28

Wales was annexed into England ,Scotland wasnt.End

69

livilion,

livingston 15/07/2007 11:25:00

71. eric, lothian
Aye, we could debate the finer points of who did what, and tried to do the other, and when.

The point is that Welsh current affairs are of no interest or relevance to most Scots other than as a counterpoint to our own domestic affairs.

If the Welsh Assembly produced a policy outlining their desire to break away from.. Scotland, we'd be wondering what we've done to upset them.

So it is with the majority of folk living in England as regards Scotland.

They do not see Scottish sport on terrestrial tv, they do not receive Scottish news or current affairs and what information does percolate down south has gone through the establishment filters and tends to present Scots as ungrateful recipients of Westminster 'charity' at the expense of English taxpayers.

In this light it is hardly surprising that they are hurt and annoyed at moves towards more autonomy for Scotland and, for that, the other Celtic nations.

70

Eve,

Scotland 15/07/2007 14:40:07

#48. David Ex-Pat: I warned you, I'm not someone who lets folk treat me like I'm stupid.

My text process problem existed because I'm dyslexic. Hence the fact I put up with that far too much through my childhood, NOT putting up with it in my Adulthood. Nothing to do with my political opinion Just me having enough with folk who are cruel & try & belittle me.

Do you understand me George, Just because I'm no middle aged like you doesn't mean I'm immature.

I believe in Scottish independence nothing immature about wanting to be independent.

Your dependence in the union is more a sense of immaturity if you ask me. You appear to have lack of Trust in Scots to handle their own daily business.

Such Negativity you harbour.

Don't worry some of us are born with determination, & we're determined to succeed, so Scotland shall not be a failure outside the union.

71

Eve,

Scotland 15/07/2007 14:52:41

#55. David Ex-Pat : Hey Gerorge Stop treating me as if I'm stupid. I'm not someone who lets anyone get away with that tone.

Is your Eyesight bovering you or did you miss the fact that comment #46 was aimed at #45 ( t.c.e.k), someone who lives wear I grew up.

And "YES" I was a very Angry person there & I have calmed down & I see more positive thing in the future than Negative. Yes independence is definitely there.

Read commit #45 & 43 too see what I'm on about.

P.S. I wasn't fighting I was debating, may be you should go back to school to tell the difference.

Please Note: I apologize for the Spell check Not working

72

HEN BROON 4,

LOOKING FOR A UNIONIST 15/07/2007 15:41:07

#54. So AM2 care to justify why my reply to you on #62 was removed? What exactly was your problem with it? Would you care to tell me so that I can be guided in future when you ask questions and I reply to them? You see what it looks like to me is that you cannot take anyone giving you a robust reply to your lies and propaganda, I have the measure of you AM2 and you know it, so you have all my replies censored, so much for freedom of speech, you are a joke.
I am still waiting for your evidence that I have made racist comments regarding you, will you be good enough to post these comments, as your last offering was pathetic, just for the record here it is, if any one can see racist comments in here then they must be using the CRE distionary. This is not going away and neither am I. You will not get away with slander dear boy, not even on a public forum, where you can hide and feel smug.

272. AM2, Glasgow / 8:09pm 6 Jul 2007
#267 Hen Broon
“I am Scottish born and bred in the Scottish nation, not the British nation as no such nation has ever existed. Scots natives are a distinct ethnic race. That is internationaly recognised” – Hen Broon
“Britain is a fascist concept.” – Hen Broon
“the corrupt fascist British state” – Hen Broon
“…the settled will of a Nation, especially one so ethnically distinct as we Scots are.” – Hen Broon
“You are a guest in my nation, and as far as I am concerned an unwelcome one” – Hen Broon
“you arrive here from another country and start telling us what is in your opinion the rights and wrongs of our nation” – Hen Broon
“sod of back to Northern Ireland” – Hen Broon
... and a lot more besides.
You stated on another thread that I had made racist remarks about you. The comments you have pasted from your bulging database do not constitute racist remarks, much as you would like to spin them. Will you therefore put up or shut up AM2 and post the racist remarks I am supposed to have made

73

elizabeth veldon,

in the re education camp 15/07/2007 18:44:03

7. Eve: I was read an interesting journal article which claimed that deep down inside most Scots want independence, it's just a question of making sure their ready to vote "YES".

---and if you don't agree with that will you be re educated?

74

elizabeth veldon,

in disbelief 15/07/2007 18:51:10

so i'm away from the Scotsman Boards for a few weeks and everyone's fighting again.

It's comforting just how little change there is on these boards when the rest of the world's in constent flux.

but then it *is* Scotland i supose...

75

Miss Jean Brodie,

15/07/2007 19:18:00

Amazing eh ? Ye’d never see a Scot jealous of an Englishman tho - it’s just not in the psyche !

76

Miss Jean Brodie,

15/07/2007 19:19:35

#77 The world is in constant conflict ya ninnie - presently and throughout time - free your dreamy brain wumin

77

Eve,

Scotland 15/07/2007 19:30:00

#76. elizabeth veldon: Why pick on that wee tiny bit of my 1st comment and then add a sentence which appears to have large chunk of the sentence missing, randomly placed in a new paragraph.

I really don't understand you. Do you just want something to rant about?

Or may be it just annoys you that their documentation that confirms a fear of yours and your like minded people.

78

t.c.e.k.,

south lanarkshire 15/07/2007 21:36:03

# 46 sad ev
When Scottish workers lost their jobs to keep English workers in theirs, Ex. B.M.C Bathgate. Rootes Linwood, The steel industry in Scotland,just to name but a few. There is also the fact that the civil servants in London and the South East are at obscene levels, you name the Government department and there all there taking billions of pounds from the U.K.as a whole. I could expand very much on all this, My point is English workers and their upper crust never once in their lives gave one iota of a damn for us so vice versa should be applied to them- good night.

79

Dave near the borders,

16/07/2007 09:32:31

>>>The English will always find some reason to be jealous of the Scots...and the Irish...and the French... etc<<<

You misunderstand two concepts.

If we're jealous of the Irish and French it is because these countries have a better standard of living than both England and Scotland and are generally speaking better societies to be in (France certainly was whenever I have been there).

We are angry not jealous with the Scots for the fact that we are constitutionally disadvantaged, whilst Scottish People carry out cowardly attacks against English Families.

Nice that you Scots can't for one moment, please vote for independence it is a more constructive use of your time for a nationalist agenda, than beating up toddlers wearing England Shirts and pretending that it is brave of you to do so. The fact that the first comment here was dripping in Anglophobia says a lot about you people.

80

,

16/07/2007 09:54:59
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81

Eve,

Scotland 16/07/2007 10:04:34

#83. Dave near the borders: Things like that rarely happen!!!!

Few Scot Nats are anti-English (My guess it's less than 1%). Most of us just want our country to be home ruled. I don't get why anyone can be angry at some one who wants to make something of themselves on their own, so why be angry when a country wants to do that.

Your obviously someone who fails to realize that Scotland a country to us NOT a region.


Roll on Scottish Independence


 

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