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One wonders if ther's a consultant quaking in their boots at this news, or whether this blunder was squarely the councils.
The incompetence of it all is simply breathtaking.As for the not giving refunds, the council are simply stealing money.
The council are not stealing money! Those fines were issued because cars were parked illegaly and so had every right to be given a ticket. The fact that there was an error relating to a technicality does not suddenly make their parking legal. People should be annoyed at those who choose to be inconsiderate and dangerous when parking rather than the council making a mistake.
I remember this story when it as first news. And the council back then said they had no worries as everything was legal and they were right mmm..... dont think so, pri~ks!!!!!!
The cooncil will just think up more ways the thieve money of the good folk of edinburgh now.
a test case for a refund would open the floodgates. If anyone has been affected they should put a claim in the the Sheriff Court for a refund. Sure, the cost of bringing it would be higher than the refund (for a single ticket) but just think of the immense satisfaction that your action would bring you, as you watch the put upon citizens of Edinburgh give this (outgoing) shower of morons a financial kicking.
This is typical of this country. The law abiding citizen that holds their hands up and pays there parking tickets remains out of pocket. The criminal fraternity that refuse to pay are now off the hook. Typical Labour Party
#6 - it will be the Council tax payers who pay out - talk about biting your nose to spite your face !! And it is only a loophole - no doubt found by some weasle lawyer
Maybe our outgoing councillors will hand back their £20,000 golden handshakes to cover part of the loss? After all, it happened on their watch, and if they have any integrity and value public services they won't profit from errors that happened when they were in charge.
Nah, thought not.
Ahhh dont worry, poll tax increase will cover it next year, problem solved
A Labour Department of Transport and a Labour Council have together managed to lose us 6.5 million Poungds. This is on top of the Congestion referendum and other financial fiascos. Is there any *single* project which Labour are capable of running properly?
Basically scofflaws are going to go scot free when we know they deserve to have their cars cubed. Meanwhile Labour refuse to recompense the ordinary citizens of Edinburgh who did have the honesty to pay their fines. What sort of message does that send out to children?
Quite simply this Labour Council have now announced to all and sundry that under Labour, crime does pay, and pays rather well. I suppose that after the Ecclestone "donation", the selling of Honours, and the protection of British companies and Saudi royals from bribery investigations, there's little more we could have expected.
Luckily we do have one recourse:
Make *Them* Pay in May!
#7
Its the criminal council not giving out refunds as well, in any other situation, refunds would be paid.About time everone who had a ticket got together and gathered names them go to court as one group.
#2 Thats all they ever do, Steak our money.
Any one who wants to be a councillor should automatically be banned from being one
#7 - if they were lawabiding citizens, remind us why they ended up with a parking ticket?
#6 - good idea to give "this (outgoing) shower of morons a financial kicking." ... How would the incoming shower of morons deal with the finacial headache?
#13 Purest Mince, so they are!
Anyone with a even a mere modicum of common sense would tell you that you cannot issue a ticket without displaying the date and time.This strikes of gross incompetance and surely a sacking offence.
#15 - Parking contraventions are not a crime, nor are those who receive parking tickets criminals. I understand that in 1991 a new act was passed allowing councils to decriminalise parking offences.
I received three parking tickets and my car was towed a week ago, after I mistakenly parked my car on the wrong side of a wheelie bin. As I now know it sits in between a permit holders area and a Pay and Display area. Whilst I begrudge wasting money on the £200 I had to shell out two things were clear:- I don't consider myself a criminal for parking incorrectly, nor am I considered one in the eyes of the law. - The car was not causing obstruction or impeding the flow of traffic (other than taking up a space in an always half-empty parking bay in a street that is currently closed off due to extensive roadworks)
Let's turn the tables on this one - I'm sure there would be a chorus of support if through a technicality, drivers who had - say - bought a Pay and Display ticket but had failed to stick it to their window were given parking tickets because they were supposed to stick it on.
The law exists for everyone and applies to everyone as it is the only way to achieve a fair and democratic society. if the council have failed to meet their legal obligations then they have only themselves to blame - I fully support those who have successfully challenged their 'penalty charge notices' and won.
Number 15, to answer your question directly, this happens when the council massively oversells permits and having paid for one a law abiding resident finds there are no residents spaces available anywhere in the zone. This happens daily. In any other sector this would be called fraud and the coucil would be sued for fraud. But because they make the laws they think they are allowed to sell permits for 2 times the number of available spaces, knowingly. Does that answer your question ?
Donald Anderson is conspicuous by his absence from this thread.
Surely he's got a quote to offer on this one - just another one of the catalogue of successes we should be grateful to the Labour administration for bringing us.
Presumably those who paid their parking tickets did so because they were caught fair and square, otherwise they could (and should) have gone through the appeal mechanism available to them. If they paid attention to the rules and regulations and parked their cars considerately they wouldn't have been ticketed in the first place. I can't see any reason at all why the Council should now spend Council taxpayers' money on refunding fines which were paid.
If a rapist or murderer gets off on a technicality even though they are guilty of the offence, would you all be so supportive and urge him to claim compensation and loss of earnings. If people park illegally they deserve to be fined, simple as that.
It's only £6.5m. I'm going to increase the parking tariffs to make up the shortfall. I can do that you know.
Ticket gaffe costs city £6.5m
The headline is bemusing me. The £6.5m is generated on fines, the fines are paid by the car owner, the car owner probably resides in Edinburgh and if not, the majority are either residents or live near by to Edinburgh and alo pay council tax.
Therefore, shouldn't the heading read "Ticket gaffe SAVES city residents £6.5m"?
I think that it is a joke that people are getting away with this in the first place. The error is not in the fact that they were parked (where it is clearly stated) a no parking zone. And for those who dont get back to their cars in time that just stupid and you deserve everything you get.
I cant beleive people feel robbed by this #21 good point agree 100%
#19. Nothing to say about £6.5m lost under his leadership but he does have something to say about 20 quid kilts.
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=241142007
#7 is right ,#15 #18 they may not be "Criminals" but they are the part of the scum that is dragging down society.
These habitual non-payers have no regard for their fellow citizens and blindly carry on their daily lives ripping off the city and businesses. They are probably the same scum who don't give a second throught to benefit fraud, tax evasion and all sorts of other "dodgy" dealings.
Anyone can receive the odd ticket, and some might even be under dispute - fine, these are normal people and should have the right to challenge a ticket, and benefit from getting off on a technicality.
But the £6.5million being written off is owed mostly by a small number of people who park illegally on a daily basis and have never paid their fines. Despite my thoughts on how bad Edinburgh Council are, these scum should not get away with this "criminal" activity.
Dave from Barra. If you pay attention you'll see that I in no way compare the offences of rape or murder to parking offences. I'm merely highlighting the argument of legal technicalities. There's no need to get aggressive about it. If you need things explained, just ask!!
Usual poor quality Evening News headline. Indeed, as the tickets were revoked, it did not cost they city money, as they are no worse-off.
How do you know I was being aggressive?
You made a comparison Macskive, plain and simple. Perhaps a little attention paying yourself would clarify your own warblings.
"If a rapist or murderer gets off on a technicality even though they are guilty of the offence, would you all be so supportive and urge him to claim compensation and loss of earnings" - macskive, a comparison between evil murdering rapists and car owners.
You told me to Fek off, aggressive I'd suggest. I'm comparing the legal technicalities, not the offences. Ssssh!!!
Dave # 33, I've got my doubts as to whether "fek off" can ever be delivered in a disarming and polite fashion.
Does anyone agree that hostility towards parking fines is mainly due to the 6 minutes over £60 fine mentality of wardens? Wasn't the old system split into tiers whereby you were fined according to how much you went over the time? Remember the machines with "excess charge" and "penalty"? Surely a system much less likely to get people's backs up.
i,m surprised so many are on here who seem to think so badly of people who have parked for too long in one place. Please realise that the vast majority of these fines will have been handed out in the central George street and surrounding areas at meters where parking attendants hover round waiting to the second to give you a ticket, forget this 6 minutes grace because until very recently it never happened.So what your really penalising people for is being a few minutes late or parking in the wrong bay (a technicality itslef perhaps?) not the people who cause problems by poor or dangerous parking. If this was a private company who had made this mistake you'd all be screaming for a refund so why should the council get away with it
We work hard to lose your moneySo hard to lose your moneyWe work hard to lose your moneySo you better give us more .....We work hard to lose your moneySo hard to lose your moneyWe work hard to lose your moneySo you better give us more .....
It's all gone down the plugholeCos we made a huge mistakeOh yeah it's a wonderHow we even spotted our blunderBut you're not all off the hookSome are still on our booksAnd we don't want to hear a soundCos there'll be no refund ..... at all
Oh over the yearsWe have seen drivers' tearsCos we give out parking finesTo the ones on yellow linesAnd then send them all to courtIts a sacrifice working day to dayFor little money, yeah it's just small payBut its worth it allJust to see them start to quiver and cry
We know we've made mistakesFor which we'll pay in MaySome will pay and other's don'tCos we work hard ....
*Adapted from "She Works Hard For The Money" with apologies to Donna Summer
Re 37 Scaramouche. Did you get clearance from Donna Summer to use that song. I work next to her agent so you can expect to hear from her lawyers shortly.
Of course it can Julian!
"Fek off" he whispered in her perfectly formed ear. On hearing the words, her clothes peeled off her clammy body and she fell onto the bed, disarmed and dishevelled.
See? Told you!
not the only bllunder/mal practice carried out by edinburgh council that needs looked at. the behavoir of the environmental wardens needs looked at such as issuing fines to parents of children under 16 who havent cleaned up after there dogs (its the person in charge of the dog at the time that is responsible regardless of age)
Why would anyone think this is the council's fault.Surely it's the subcontractor to blame if the tickets don't meet the regulations.
I have lived in edinburgh all my life and have never yet got a parking ticket, so those who moan about getting one should really read the highway code bit about parking, yellow lines etc, its not exactly rocket science. In my view if you can't carry out as simple a task as paying for a ticket, you should not be driving a car in the first place as you are plainly stupid
#38. She's my 3rd cousin twice removed's husband's cousin's wife .... so she was happy to help.
Notice the bit about it "...making a big hole in their finances...". So parking tickets are not supposed to be about making money then? Someone's let the cat out of the bag there!
Notwithstanding that, I sincerely hope that someone who has payed their ticket fights it through the courts. As they say, a ruling will mean that they HAVE to refund the whole lot.
Alternatively, if you paid your ticket and don't fancy the hassle of court, try it on anyway.
Another option is to deduct it from your council tax payments. Now it has been revealed that money from fines goes into exactly the same pot as everything else, the sums will at least add up.
As far as I can see, parking tickets are against basic constitutional principles which state that only a court can impose a financial (or otherwise) penalty. When they were REALLY used for keeping the streets clear then one could overlook it but now they are being used as a (very lucrative) source of additional revenue the time has come to fight back.
With the DVLA & VRN surely all car owners with dates & location can be fined, pressure on withdrawl of driving licence etc etc.
Trouble is a crap syatem & even worse staff dealing with it all on flexy time at taxpayers expense.
Don't even get me on council tax dodgers, how can non payers get a vote, get credit & there's plenty in that situation.
All going to pear.
#41 how can the subcontractor be to blame if it is the council who decides what go,s on the tickets
and as for this Barry Segal to whom i give my thanks for causing a severe increse in council tax ,incresed parking fines and impound fees if this money is all paid back
"Welcome to Edinburgh" - just don't arrive by car!!
THIS IS GREAT THE HONEST FOLK GET THE SHAFT AND THE CHEATS WIN EVERYTIME MAYBE WE SHOULD DO AWAY WITH LAWS AND BYLAWS THE DON'T WORK ANYWAY
Yet another cock up by this council that we will need to pay for.What will they do? Shrug their shoulders, perhaps say sorry and march on to their next mistake.Don't expect anyone to take the blame for this.The only thing that is constant about this council is their incompetence.
#49, yes James and you are of course perfect and never in your life or job made a single mistake
About bloody time too. parking in edinburgh is a joke with ever decrecing bays and huge hikes in prices. I personaly have paid all my tickets (and there have been a few) but some lucky sods are getting a freeby. Well done to you. One over on the stupid council
Coucil insider, you cannot put up the price of the parking tickets you are a nobody.
Evening news,why are you publishing an old photograph of a CPS employee who left a wee while ago?And more to the point will you pay flash a royalty for its use?
#51 I think you will find that the number of parking bays and off street spaces has remained the same, and sorry but the Council is not as stupid as you say, this is an insult to those who work for it. Some people in this City are just born ignorant and don't have a clue how hard it is to run a city of nearly 1/2 million people, with 1/2million different opinions, but of course THEY think they can do so much better. Some of the people on here who love to dish out petty crititism maybe should run for election and see if they can do better, and see how they like the nasty, vindictive comments they get (and by the way I am not a Councillor).
whose at fault the computer the printer or the nuts running the city come election time send them there notice and make it legal
hey mr sensible,have a closer look that is not flash, a lack of beer gut is the main giveaway,also i think you will find that is a female in the pic!
#3 - #15 - #18, Parking is NOT a criminal offense, you cannot be taken to court for it (since it was decriminalised in 1991) consequently the council cannot enforce or levy a fine against you for parking in a designated area. They rake in Millions a year from soft suckers who pay the £30 without questioning it.Don't pay - they cannot "do" anything to you. They threaten, they increase the hine to £90 but at the end of the day they do not have the authority to 'fine' anyone, only a court can do that. They are just saying 'pay me 30 - 60 - £90' it is a civil matter between you and them. If they publish this 'fine' to a third party they are the ones committing a crime. No Baliff will ever come and demand goods or money from you as they cannot do so without a court order and the Council/Baliff/Sherif cannot get a court order for a non criminal offence. They can only get such an order if you fail to pay a fine levied by a court. This isn't a fine levied by a court it's just some sweaty council oik saying give me money.Just park - don't block the street, don't impede the traffic, avoid double yellow lines. Park. What will they do if 1/2 Million people say "stuff you" ?
#56 yes ! thats the attitude , 'just park' and stuff everyone else ! I don't care if my badly parked car causes accidents/congestion/problems for disabled/blind people, blocks driveways, pevents fire engines /ambulances moving, hold up buses etc, lets just park anywhere anytime. Well done that man/woman, good community spirit
I'll be writing to them to claim back my money they stole and everyone else should.
They are corrupt and should be behind bars.
#57 NO NO I didn't say park anywhere - I said "Just park - don't block the street, don't impede the traffic, avoid double yellow lines." - I didn't but perhaps should have added, "be considerate, be well mannered". I am NOT saying hog the space and ferk everyone else. I did not saying block pathways and drive ways, I said DON'T BLOCK - can't you read ???
The point is that the Council cannot "fine" you or enforce the payment of a fine. It is exactly the same as me saying that "i'm going to fine you £30 for not reading my post #57 properly".
So come on hand it over ... you'd give it to the council, why not me ?
Dave from Barra #39: I've looked and looked but I can't find an item of clothing called a "fek". I assume it's an item for the boudoir.
#59 exactly where do you 'park' that would not cause all these problems ? The roads (or highways as they should be called) are there for the passage of motor vehicles - not for dumping a 5 foot wide by 15 feet long piece of metal (aka a car).Come on - as a fellow biker you should know better ! £30 please !
#6 Encouraging people to take on a test case and give the Council a financial kicking is the height of stupidity - who provides the Council with their money?? - DOH!!
#61 - in parking spaces, in car parks, in places that do NOT cause any impediment or blockage to the flow of traffic or pedestrians or emergency vehicles. In places that are considerate to other road users. In the very same places you park your cars now.
I am not as anarchistic as you believe, all I am saying is that the council "cannot legally fine or enforce a fine" for "parking". That is what the article (above) is all about. It's not about parking in the middle of the street and creating havoc or blocking the flow of traffic, that is an offense which can be dealt with by the law. These "offenses" are dealt with in court and are NOT what the article is about. I am not saying lets start the Edinburgh Popular Peoples Front and bring down the fascist proletariat rulers .... even if that does sound like a good idea ;o)
Question 1Does anyone know the position in Glasgow?Question 2 How much wll be paid in Sheriff officers fees for abnortive work in not colllecting £6.5 million? I am sure these guys will want paid either wayQuestion 3 How many Cooncil lawyers will get their jotters for not checking the law properly?Roll on the test cases.
Quite frankly I admire anyone who doesn't pay a speeding fine or a parking ticket ... far from being the 'scum who bring society down' as one poster put it they are the hero's who do not bend to corrupt government policies designed to do nothing more than take more money from your pocket for made up 'crimes'.
By the time we've finished with these thick red pancake tossers in May I hope they go and live in north korea where they may feel more at home.
Council insider ... very clever.
Dame Edna: Well said and mostly correct. All the council can do is to invoke civil recovery methods in the same way that any other civil body might do. In the case of the council, they go direct to Sheriff Officers (how they pay for that I don't know---it would cost a fortune) and they can threaten you with poinding, warrant sales etc, but for a 30 quid ticket, are they really going to do anything? I doubt it. In order to actually do anything they threaten, you correctly say that they would need a court order. A "summary warrant" is not enough. They would need to get you to court first.
I can see your point about sensible parking. It is over 6 years since I got a ticket that was actually enforcable. I ALWAYS dispute it and if you do that, you will usually win.
Road Raga has been disagreeing with you but I think that in this case he/she is either trying to play Devil's Advocate or simply doesn't understand. either way, its not worth further debate.
Oh - and one more thing , now i'm started.... In the article it states that "Independent Scottish parking adjudicators then wrote to councils across Scotland to warn that all parking appeals would be successful if two dates are not on the penalty notice."
Independent ?
Sounds a bit like 'here, keep the fines coming in because we need the funding you give us' - so they have independently caused the public to have no chance of appeal then ??
every fine since 1991.oops now that is a biggy, and if the high court judge has set a precedent, that it no argument,maybe all the retirng councillors willl have to hand back the golden handshake and some of the council cars will be repossesed eh, Oh I wait with baited breath for this one to play out. more clowns that a three ring circus.
Please keep this one on the front page
Vengence is mine oops just had a thought if tickets were illegal, does that mean the council can be chraged with demanding an illegal payment with threats and harrassment. ...
yes yes yes lcok them all up....MMmmm
The mind boggles...
Voldemort # 66, what exactly is the difference between a "made-up crime" and a non made-up crime???
Oh, and by the way, I think you'll find that parking on a yellow line is not a crime.
Julian #70, that seems to be correct - "when a vehicle is, for example, parked on a yellow line during controlled hours, it is said to be parked ‘in contravention of the regulations’. Thus there are no offences, merely contraventions." - taken from the Governments UK Parking Regulations website '<http://tinyurl.com/2pjky5>;.
It looks as if the Coouncil are in a spot of bother if they are relying on the profit from their little scam !!
Dame Edna # 71, thanks for the confirmation on that. Maybe Voldemort # 66 could give us some clarification. Are these "made up contraventions" and, if so, what's a non made up contravention;)
Sorry to pick you up Dame, but the council do not make a profit. They make a surplus, and in the case of revenue from parking tickets, the surplus goes towards the transport budget.
The way some people go on about council scams, rip-offs and money spinners you would think it was Arthur Dailey running it, personally pocketing all this money.
