"working long hours for low pay to the detriment of their studies"

I think you'll find drinking for long hours cause most of the detriment to studies.

Well done again SNP! I'm glad you're getting rid of this stupid tax. I've always seen it as an "Honesty Tax". i.e. the people who pay it are the honest working folk in regular jobs who declare their proper income. It then gets paid back out to others whose parents are "self employed" and declare ridiculously false incomes to get subsidies! Yes there are a lot of honest, justifyable claims, and quite rightly so - but hopefully this might get rid of some of the "dodgy" ones? Lets make sure that only those that really need it, get it!

AM2 - it's not the SNP policy to pay off the cumulative student debt in one go, as I suspect you know perfectly well. All the £2bn plus figures we hear about this are calculated on the assumption that the debt will be cleared in one go. I can understand why the Labouir party might want us to believe that - I'm less clear why you would want to perpetuate this fiction.

All today's announcement does is scrap the 'endowment', or back end tuition fees, meeting the cost instead out of general government expenditure. The cost, as the article says, is £20m per year.

It can hardly be socialistic if it also results in every student getting p***** in Ibiza and tooling round in Minis. But then again, perhaps your student experience was less than typical, or never happened at all and is simply being lifted straight from the pages of the Viz?

Especially for you AM2 - suitably updated -

SNP performance to date -
-------------------------

Ordering a financial review of a tram scheme no-one wants that even in consultation phase has cost £100m

Removing tolls from the Forth and Tay bridges (passed by vote May 2007)

Releasing suppressed Labour executive reports that identify a potential of £1bn savings

Proposing freezing council tax payments for 2 years

Carrying out an investigation into why a proposed clean power plant scheme creating 1000 jobs was stalled by Labour

Proposing upgrading the A9 to dual carriageway along its length

Discussing the possibility of reviving Scottish deep coal mining

Refusing permission for new nuclear power stations to be built in Scotland

Opposing the introduction of blanket stop and question powers for the police in Scotland

Requesting Scotland represent its own (and the UK's as a whole) fishing interests in Europe

Plans to nationalise Scotland's only private jail

Putting forward plans to Prevent ship-to-ship transfers in the Forth estuary

Engaging positively with the Royal family

Highlighting the Blair administration's contempt for the scottish judicial system and devolved government

Scrapping the £2,000 graduate tax (succesful 13th June 2007)

Saving accident and emergency care based on patient need.

Labour performance to date -
----------------------------

Agreeing with SNP policy

Infighting

Name Calling

Tony, Gordy and Joke Macdonald all going in the huff with the new First Minister

Riding roughshod over the scottish judicial system and devolved government by making more 'oil deals' overseas.

Golden girl Kirsty "where's ma holiday Jack"? Wark throwing a hissy-fit on newsnight

New report (FSB) shows that Scotland is the worst performing small country in western europe - it lies 10th in the table of 10 s

#7 GM this is depressing the dreaded GM list, not included your toast for breakfast which I am sure SNP provided for free.

#7 nice list, can you put costs in each item as well ?

hey, #8

at least I keep updating it unlike AM2 who copied and pasted the same dross pre-election time after time. I've even taken on board some of his own suggestions in my list - how fair is that!

If the sorry excuse for a labour government hadn't decided that EVERYONE should have the chance to go to university, rather than just the select few, the system wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

We should go back to the way things were in the 1970s. Re-open the technical colleges, encourage apprenticeships and get people to learn a trade.

Leave the universities for those top 1% who will actually benefit from them---then bring back grants and allow signing on during recess.

I am sick fed up with this SNP administration, they keep doing what people want, they stick to their manifesto, they fiercely stand up for Scotland and at last Scots appear to be beginning to believe in themselves and their country. Please oh please, when can we have a return to Labour denigrating Scotland, not consulting people, doing London’s bidding and making us all feel wretched!

#12 I agree, the SNP are a nightmare. Why should we be happy? They've done nothing but good things but only those that voted for them are allowed to be happy. Can we not just get back to the doom and gloom forecasting? I don't like this new Scotland. If we don't return to labour, the oil will run out.

#1. AM2: You ovbousely don't have a Student loan.

You seem to have a similar opinion to Hue Henery (WHO!!! Some Labour MSP I gess) has just been on the radio. Talking about wealthy student. I wasn't aware there was many Scottish Students who had money. He said the endownment was created to help Fund the poorer students. What a JOKE, the real poor don't go or don't complet their courses or take out loads of creadit cards and Loans and then they get graduate tax as well.

Me, for the past 4 years I have lived on about £4,000 a year (Student Loan & Parent contrabution). One of the year's my parents struggled to support me. Acourding to Mr Alexander it should be uped to £7,000, sounds good and helpfull, had a nightmare find flat at an afordable price and would have been good to have been able to affored going out once in while.

I've got one, Mines it's well over £12,000 now (It goes up every month by about £100 in intersted) & the highist paying job, I can get with my Degree is to do the PGDE and become a teacher at High School (great another year of scrimping and scraping & uping my loan). I gess I have my student Loan for life!

#12 &#13:

Yes! Let's return to labour! Let's have a lot more of the stupid, knee-jerk decisions. Lets put an ex-farmer in charge of education and an ex-schoolteacher in charge of farming! Lets get them to make even more restrictive rules based upon things they made up that will erode our freedom!

Let's get them to tell more lies to us! I know we all love it! In the same way that we are just dying to be told how to behave in the privacy of our own homes.

Really and honestly. The only way out of this mess will be with the tories.

#15. petrol head: How are the Toris going to do that, the only one thats actaly likeable is Annibell Golidie, the others come agross as confused.

And Most Scots don't trust the Tories.

#15 WHat mess?

the students may be better off but the taxpayers arent ! This money has to come from somewhere, a fact the socialists in the SNP and elsewhere seem to forget as they are handing out their populist goodies.

#7 GM. Yes, handing out other people's money is easy isnt it ? Paying for it is another matter, but we'll worry about that later, right ?

@20

what about edinburgh residents?

post the details of the investigation where your 75% figure comes from. you wouldn't allow anyone else to simly post a %, so post the source data and I can analyse it myself.

I suspect its the usual statistical claptrap. After all, you can rely on stats to support any argument.

#7 You forgot to mention Salmond's pathetic political posturing over a Libyan prisoner being transferred out the country when he knew well fine that he wasnt being moved in the first case.

Lets not let the facts get in the way of a good emergency statement. The man is a prize clown.

AM2 get a life will ya!

Well done the SNP.

NEWSFLASH FOR GORGIE_TONY #4 - the SNP are running a minority government in a parliament that doesn't have the full control of our own politics.
We couldn't really be much further away from a dictatorship.
Westminster on the other hand where there are 2 parties that are extraordinarily similar and push things through without any moral conscience, you might have a case there...

The president of the National Union of Students in Scotland, James Alexander, has said: "It's a significant first step from the SNP in reducing graduate debt, however more has got to be done to acknowledge that students do live in absolute hardship. That has to be taken into consideration with further policies."

This is the same National Union of Students in Scotland that refused, as a matter of policy, not to engage in pre-election discussions with the SNP in case it upset the Labour party.

cmon Calum20 @#26

at least they clearly have now recognised that the lights didn't go off after the SNP victory and that the party can deliver the best for Scotland...

unlike a few contrbutors here lol!

#21 AM2 - paying it off in installments doesn't reduce the overall cost, but there's a helluva difference for government cashflow between £2bn payable upfront, as Labour argue the policy would mean, and £2bn payable over a number of years.

I'm sure you'll agree that's an important distinction, and one which deserves to be made in the interests of clarity. £2bn paid up front - other services suffer. £2bn paid over say 10 years - no big deal.

I'm sorry but, as I said the other day on a similar theme, graduates have the potential to earn £100, 000s of pounds extra in their working lives due to having a degree. They also get special rates for student loans. I don't see the problem with having to pay a few thousands of pounds for the future benefits. Unless they're non-existent as you're doing a wee pretend course like media studies.

Actually,I don't agree with AM2 on this one.In Finland education is free for all students,including foreign students.Nobody in Finland views this as being particularly socialist.They take the view that a succesful and prosperous nation spends it money on what is most beneficial for society.Two big priorities are:

Health
Education

There are people of all shades of the political spectrum in Finland,as there are in Scotland.The difference is that everyone believes that free education and access to a high standard of health care for all has benefits for the entire nation.

I belive that for Scotland too,free education and acess to high quality health care for all will lead to a more succesful nation and better quality of life.Nothing is really free but the philosophy should be to spend money on what people want most,and what results in a healthier and better educated/Skilled poulation.

I congratulate the SNP on the removal of student debt.It is a step in the right direction.As the NUS and others have pointed out there is still much to do,but well done Fiona Hyslop.
Dr Bill Reynolds

Student debt is an intolerable burden and needs to be addressed. Gone are the days when a university degree was a guaranteed passport to a large salary.

Once a modest income £15,000 is reached it begins to be payable back like income tax, which those on an identical wage do not have to pay.

The burden of student debt, coupled with perhaps personal loans, credit card debt (merely to live on) - then they are expected to get a mortgage (on a virtually unaffordable property), contribute towards their personal pensions (because there are no works pensions now - unless they are in the public sector) and finally we expect them to produce the next generation of (hopefully bright children)
- or are we expecting to get these from single teenage mother's on social security or will we import the young of Poland and Romania to be our doctors, dentists, teachers, economists, accountants, lawyers, etc...

Our own debt burdened graduates, could avoid repaying their student loans - they could go abroad.

Perhaps we do need to reduce the numbers going to university and have more vocational training, but the debt burden of graduates could well create a demographic disaster for this country in a generation's time. Then where will we be with only foreign teachers, doctors and other professionals. The end of the endowment scheme is the first step in avoiding the potential future disaster which could befall our society.

#1 AM2 - Another ill-informed, poorly thought out comment - but then I don't blame you. You are clearly unable to think for your self and just regurgitate either what-ever Blair says, or whatever Jack McConnell says. Have you ever had a creative, positive or original thought?

I, for one, am proud that we will have an education system that does not descriminate against people, except on the basis of ability and potential.

I expect this will be deleted as soon as the gimp-master trolls through this forum, for the 800th time today. How very dull.

#32. This policy of student funding was right for the 1950s or 1960s when access to credit was much less. In 2007, it is simply a burden on Scotland which brings very little benefit to Scotland. It would have been better to spend the money on health or more police. Most good graduates will leave Scotland anyway and they are good they will be able to repay any debts they incur.

Sounds like #1&2 could have benefited from a university education.

The SNP have not honoured their manifesto commitment, their manifesto says the will “replace the discredited student loans system with means tested student grants”. Nothing on this was mentioned today, people voted for the SNP on this basis, when are the SNP going to honour their commitment to their voters and put their proposals before parliament.

How about getting rid of some of the POINTLESS degree courses. I know someone who was a 'student' for all of 14 years, doing several pointless degrees like History. I think he just liked the student lifestyle, paid for of course by the taxpayer.
We need more technical courses, I'm with #11 on this one, most sensible posting from petrol head I have seen.
You have got to ask yourself, why, with so many people in further education, is there still a skills shortage, especially in engineering ?
PS There are 100,000 students in Edinburgh, that is 1/5 of the population.

#33 ineffably stupid, even by your standards.

That might yet come, Darryl, but it needs the support of other parties to happen.

Is your urge for the SNP to put this policy before parliament because you think Labour are about to reverse their opposition to the policy and it might get through? Or is it because Labour and their cheerleaders still can't get thir heads round the fact that minority government is not the same thing as a demolition derby of unreformed manifesto pledges?

#35 Darryl, the SNP have honoured their manifesto commitment relating to student finance, which includes:-

• Abolition of the Graduate Endowment tuition fee

• Replacing the expensive and discredited Student Loans system

• Removing the burden of the debt repayments owed to the Student

One out of three delivered. What more do you want? Surely you aren't askign for everything they promised for the their four year term delivered inside a month? They're good but I think they'd struggle with those demands.

32. Polmonto. I agree that ability and potential counbt for a lot and so does determination.

As a former student who had a smallish Loan at the end I still remarked on a few things:

The people who stay on longest and graduate are often th most dedicated and of course the most likely to have the high loans.

The students who were the least dedicated tended to crash out after the first year (though some of course just did a bad choice and came back to do really well in other subjects).

Thirdly it wasnt always the poorest who managed to get the bursaries - good accountants seemed to be a key factor ;)

Lastly of course, it is human nature to abuse the system and some people will rack up much higher expenses than others in the same circumstances.

I would therefore abandon graduation fees as the SNP have done.
Increase the grants but put penalties for those that drop out for whatever reason, the highest penalties for those that drop out after the first year. (since they have essentially taken up a place that some other student could have benefited from).

#38

My urge is that the SNP honour their commitment to their voters and at least put their policy forward for scrutiny by parliament. Other parties notably the Lib-Dems will back the proposal but only if the government make it clear exactly where the money is coming from.

Jock - just a wild guess - you're not a graduate are you?

Point about graduates is that they get higher paying jobs - and pay more tax.

That's how it works with socialism..........

35 this is the way it works - they are currently working with the budget inherited from the previous Executive. They will only be able to put forward new spending plans in the autumn. They have said that the other higher education proposals will be part of that in the autumn.

Don't immediately leap to the worst conclusions - this is the SNP not Labour.

#29. Bert: To make that amount of money in Scotland you'd have to have either a great business head or have pHD in something. Under graduates degree programme which are currently (though not for much longer, fingers crossed)subject to the Graduation fee, are not qualified too get jobs which make that kind off money they need something else and that might just be for some people to remove student debt. So they can get a loan to start up a business which will create jobs and benefit the community.

Others have degrees that are useful for community work. Do you really think that a graduate working within the community would seriously make that kind of money. I think NOT, BUT there work will benefit the community.

Oh and another thing #29. Bert: "They also get special rates for student loans" Aye right, please explain how my student loan appears to have interested of about £100 on it month that's Ruthy £1,200 a year in interested.

I can only hope that one day the loan will be cancelled cause if it aint I'm gonnae have it for life. Massive loan and scrimped & scraped those 4 years.

#33. Royster: 3 things

1) What about those who choice to work in the community. They'll never be able to pay it off completely.

Or are you suggesting that there no good!!!!!

2) Scotland is in need of having more job opportunities, for Graduates and everyone else. If people are encouraged to stay at set up businesses, this will create more Job.

3)How can something be excitable in the 1950s or 1960s BUT, NOT now these are the words of someone who went to uni or college in the 1950's & 1960's appreatated the free education BUT doesn't what the bright people of today to experience the same thing. Hippocrate!!!!

There is no problem at all paying for students to gain worthwhile degrees - we all need doctors, teachers and the like - but I heartily objcet to the notion of paying for all of the crappy stuff people go to Uni to study. This is all because the government set the % of people they wanted to see in Uni and not investing in quality.

Darryl Matheson is a diehard Labour supporter. Why he is demanding urgent implementation of SNP policies goes against everything he holds dear.

#43

I am not expecting the government to implement everything in their manifesto within weeks of coming to power, but if they are going to raise the issue of student debt surely it is better to deal with all the issues surrounding student debt rather than picking bits out of their manifesto that they know they can get through parliament. The argument that we have to wait for a spending review to find out the other parts of the policy is ridicules because of course they have announced this today without saying where the extra money is coming from to fund grants which the endowment payed for.

#48

I am not demanding the implementation of these policies, I am demanding that they bring forward their proposals before parliament to allow scrutiny by the other parties.

The days when graduates could command a premium for their degree are well gone. Firstly, where virtually everyone coming onto the market place has a degree, there will be no real financial advantage in having one. The law of supply and demand comes into operation.

In jobs where degrees do secure substantial salaries, the graduate employee will be paying more income tax and national insurance than the average worker, but they will not be paying more tax than someone else on the same salary just because that other person has not a degree or has come from abroad, or graduated before the present system came in.

It was the case in the past that students only got a grant and tuition fees paid for their first degree. The perpetual student had to pay their own way with 2nd and subsequent courses.

Over time what is learned in a University degree course will eventually become out of date, just as many subjects will be regarded as not of much practical value in the workplace, but that overlooks the true merit of a university degree in that it shows a prospective employer that the holder has the ability to study, to learn new things, to apply logic and memory to situations, and these are attributes which will last a lifetime.

A lot of final year students require working extra hours to save up for their endowment. The latest news would bring some relief to us but more needs to be done to address the financial hardship faced by students.

#47 JG

JG, I agree we need doctors and teachers but at certain time period we can only train certain number of doctors and teachers due to limited capacity available. Plus, a part from doctors and teachers we also need other skills important and relevant in our society.

I don’t understand what you mean by ‘crappy stuff’ or subjects you are pointing at. But, don’t just judge a qualification with its title; consider other advantages of gaining a degree as well. It helps to boost individual’s self confidence, enhances social skills and demonstrates individual’s potential of being able to achieving something.

Huntly Loon #48

Huntly, DARRYL MATHESON is keen for the SNP to bring these proposals before the Scottish Parliament to facilitate Labours planned ambush (spotted a mile off by the SNP and any intereted observer) which would see Labour and the Conservatives uniting to inflict the SNPs first parliamentary defeat.

The above scenario has been discussed and agreed, as Darryl will be well aware, by Conservative and Labour MSPs.

The assumption that the LibDems will, to a man, support the SNP would be a dangerous one indeed.

The LibDems have more than demonstrated their extreme dislike of the SNP and anyone observing the recent antics of the hierarchy of the Scottish LibDems would realise that the SNP is not going to trust them, not for one minute, on such an important and etremly close vote in the Parliament.

Darryl, like the pro-union parties in the Scottish Parliament are champing at the bit and simply can't wait to inflict a defeat of the SNP in Parliament.

That is what it is ALL about for them. Political pointscoring.

Nothing whatsoever to do with concern for the welfare of Scottish students or the long term benifit to Scotland and her people of universal free education for all.

.. it will all end in tears ...

15 interesting facts about Premier Salmon ...

To all those who have stated that a degree gets you a higher paid job - not necessarily. I have worked with and know plenty of people who get a degree and end up earning the same as we non-degree folk. It depends on what you are studying I suppose.

I think degrees in subjects important to careers and the economy should be free, doctors etc. But I would suggest a fee for those daft subjects I keep hearing about (was there not a degree in Neighbours at one point!) and lawyers should pay because they are all money vampires anyway!

#56. Paula: Whats a daft subject!

Do you fit in to the category that says that people who study some sort of sports degree, with out thinking that these people are highly probable to become either P.E teachers or coaches, encouraging people to participate in physical activity to improve their health status and may be even train young Scots to participate and do well in the Olympics or Common Wealth Games.

eh, graduates is taxpayers, an generally no lower rate taxpayers, eydir.

Student loans is been forcing folk ta choose whit wan o der bairns gengs ta Uni. Very egalitarian. THANKS NEW LABOUR. NOT!

How pathetic wis Hugh Henry da day. boak boak.

Wait - whit am I saying? quite clearly, this evil SNP policy will cause plagues of locusts and frogs to descend on Scotland. Actually, whaur IS da locusts. An the lights is still on!! My heivens!

mair progress in 4 weeks as ida previous 8 year. Good stuff.

#58. Derick fae Yell: Aye Good stuff. (Lang may it continue)

It was very wet yesterday BUT there was no sines of frogs or locusts in this city!! (any way)

Who is Hugh Henry?
I said in comment #14 that Hue Henery was talking rubbish, on the radio BUT I spelt his name wrong, So thank for giving me an insight to how it's spelt (No dought I'll forget it)

Well Done The Snp

Ditto

#1 AM2

"And what for? To encourage binge boozing with impunity, Ibiza trips and brand new Mini Coopers on hire-purchase?! "

Whether or not that was meant in jest that statement has made me livid. How about the fact that it helps recent graduates to at least attempt to get on the housing ladder? It lessens the burden of perhaps decades of debt?

Sadly, I graduated last year, so I won't benefit. I'm still saddled with £17,000 plus of student debt in the form of loans and the graduate endowment, and believe me, if I had that £2000 available to me I would most certainly not waste it on 'binge boozing'. Life is expensive enough for my generation. I dread to think what sort of pension awaits when the time comes; not to mention how long it'll be before I can even *think* about applying for a mortgage.

No 14/16 - with that standard of spelling, grammar and punctuation you're lucky to find a teacher training college that will have you. I hope it's not English you're planning to teach.

#52. In the 1950s and 60s we had many clever people in vocational jobs who may have been able to obtain good degrees but couldn't go to university because of they couldn't afford it. Now we have a situation where many people, who are better suited to vocational work, are wasting their time at university at the taxpayers' expense.

Hugh Henry?

Because it opens up the market to everyone. Socialism does tend to restrict the development of market. Well done SNP for making tertiary education a meritocracy. Lets hope the admissions policies follow suit.

#53 Asif
Perhaps the places are limited for those important professions to accommodate the "crappy" stuff I mentioned. As I've said on previous comments boards, there is absolutely nothing wrong in someone being a joiner, plumber etc. - I'd rather any sone of mine chose a trade like those than waste taxpayers money on what are actually rubbish degrees. If you're unsure of the kind of things I mean, have a look on the (quality) University sites - they don't even accept some of the highers people turn up with as being worth the paper they're written on!

#4 Gorgie, said:

"This SNP government have not once asked the public what they want - instead they force policies on us......"

So, remind me when the last Executive "asked the public what they want"?

A&E department closures anyone????

#63. florence f: As #64. famous 15 has informed you, I'm indeed Dyslexic, BUT:
Isn't technology a wonderful thing! I can talk to my computer and it works pretty well, don't you think? It's no perfect but it helps.

I never said it was going to do my teaching qualification, all I said is that I could do teaching as a career. Yes, My under graduate degree is not in English but had another core subject.

Great work SNP!

14,Eve. How can I say this without you taking it the wrong way, oh well here goes; I thought my spelling was bad,but yours is truely awful,you would'nt get into an Infant school in england let alone a High school,sorry eve,I know you are trying,maybe you need one 2 one help!

#74. maxi: I don't want to go to a infant school or high school in England. I think I have potential to be good at teaching in my particular subject. Incidentally the subject my degree is in, is also the subject I got my worst standard grade results in. I'm some one who developed effective coping techniques for that subject and would be a huge asset, to pupils who struggle with my subject area.

Speech recognition software is my help for the future.
Technology is truly a wonderful thing, Don't you think?

Eve, Indeed I do, I wish you well, maybe one day we can meet up and compare notes!