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Monday, 2nd November 2009 Change Date Latest Issue

City builders hit a brick wall as crunch bites

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Published Date: 18 August 2008
THE building of thousands of new homes in the Capital is in doubt as the credit crunch brings the city's construction industry to a virtual standstill.
Major developments are being mothballed across the city, with a string of building sites lying empty along the Waterfront and the city centre in particular.

An investigation by the Evening News has found that work has started on only six of the 29 major developments in Edinburgh with detailed planning permission outstanding in September last year.

Several developers admit their plans have been put on ice as a direct result of the state of the economy.

That means thousands of homes, including huge numbers of one and two-bedroom flats, will not be built in the foreseeable future.

The credit crunch has hit builders with a "double whammy" as banks are now reluctant to give them the loans they need and buyers are struggling to secure mortgages.

Some in the industry are pinning their hopes on an upturn in the market within the coming year, but with uncertainty ruling the day few are willing or able to press ahead just now.

Among the major projects to have been stalled by the credit crunch are:

• The third-biggest housing project to so far have been given the go-ahead on the Granton Waterfront – a 224-home development by Taylor Wimpey

• A 100-home development at Leith's Albert Dock planned by Cala

• A 73-home development at Granton Park Avenue, on the former Madelvic car factory

The future of a 75-home development by Telereal Services at the former Woodcroft Telephone Exchange on Pitsligo Road, Morningside, is also understood to be under consideration.

The mothballing of these schemes comes after plans to build 171 homes on one of the highest-profile sites in the city – the former Tartan Club at the Fountain Brewery – were halted as developers wait for the market to improve.

The difficult economic climate is believed to have been a major influence on the slow progress of many of the other developments, although some have pointed to other factors, such as infrastructure issues.

Michael Halliday, associate director of planning and development at property firm CB Richard Ellis in Edinburgh, said: "A year ago, it would have been a big surprise that so many developments hadn't started a year or more after consent was achieved. But now even those with planning consent are finding it difficult to get finance for these flat or house developments.

"The main conditions for starting building are can they sell the product and will it sell for too little to make a profit? If too many are choosing not to build, it has a knock-on effect on so many other areas, such as affordable housing, which the city needs."

Many speculators will have bought sites, got plans drawn up and achieved planning consent during the property boom, with a view to selling the site on to a developer for a handsome profit, added Mr Halliday.

But now many of these types of firms are being left with empty land for which they can't find a buyer.

Cala Homes said its plans to build 100 home at Ocean Drive in Leith's Albert Dock were on hold, despite securing planning permission last year, as it waited for the situation to improve.

"In common with other housebuilders, Cala is taking a prudent approach to new site starts," said a company spokesman.

"Faced with challenging market conditions, a lack of mortgage liquidity, continued uncertainty, and the well-documented over-supply of apartments at Edinburgh's waterfront, we have delayed the commencement of construction on the Ocean Drive development until the market improves."

Buredi – a consortium of The Burrell Company and council development firm EDI – has now put its Granton site and Fountain Brewery development on hold.

A company spokeswoman said: "In the light of current market conditions, Buredi is considering a range of options for this site, together with other sites in its portfolio."

One of the few schemes going ahead is Westpoint Homes' development at Newhaven Road, which will see 24 Hillcrest Housing Association affordable homes built by January 2009, followed by 79 private flats two months later.

The company said it was only able to push ahead with the development because it had existing lending in place through the Royal Bank of Scotland with terms agreed some time before the credit crunch.

Graham McNeill, development director at Westpoint Homes, admitted that a different approach had to be taken in the current climate.

During the property boom, all homes on new-build sites used to be snapped up well before sites were completed, meaning builders rarely had any cashflow problems. But with the current slowdown, developers are aware that this is no longer happening.

"A lot of people are very nervous – developers and first-time buyers," said Mr McNeill. "But we'll let others become stressed about having a stock of properties that they can't sell, and we'll let others mothball sites.

"In the past, developers certainly enjoyed more off-plan sales. You would want all sold off-plan as off-plan makes money at the other end. We now have to factor in the lag between completing and selling properties. Clearly that creates a cashflow issue and it is up to the developer to factor that in."

Councillor Paul Edie, the city's housing leader said the credit crunch is exacerbating an "acute" shortage of affordable housing in the city. He estimates 12,000 new affordable homes are needed in the next decade, despite developers talking of an "over-supply" of flats on the open market. The problem lies with so many buyers now being unable to afford the kind of prices which have become established in the Capital.

"The current 'credit crunch' has deepened Edinburgh's housing crisis," he said.

"We recently announced plans to build the first council homes for a generation, but other avenues will also have to be explored with the Government, registered social landlords and private developers to help combat this problem."

Craig Wallace, an associate director of planning and development at Jones Lang LaSalle in Edinburgh, said the number of developers stalling on projects with planning permission showed the depth of the industry's economic woes.

"If they go back to planning they will be faced with a whole lot of new legislation," he said.

"Planning is timely and costly and involves a lot of money being spent on design and public consultation, so it is no easy decision to ignore a consent."




Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 August 2008 1:47 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

allknowing,

18/08/2008 12:08:17
Where are all the people who were on here praying fall house prices to crash, in order for them to afford a new place.

As they are finding out, it will be much harder now to buy a place to call your own if you dont have cash!
2

alex paterson,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 12:12:12
The property boom was the good old sixties,if only it could return.
3

The Honest Lad,

Musselburgh 18/08/2008 12:19:14
No new housing shall mean prices shouldnt drop too much as there shall still be demand
4

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 12:36:19
#1: Exactly so. Cash will be the key to securing a bargain when this bottoms out. If they think the mortgage markets are starved for cash now, they're going to be shocked by what's coming.

#3: If there's no way to borrow money and someone doesn't have cash, then them wanting a house isn't "demand", it's just wishful thinking.
5

alex patersons English teacher,

18/08/2008 12:39:55
1
is a fall house price something you win at bingo or an autumn thing.

reed the article, it all stems from that.
6

ccc,

18/08/2008 12:42:55
I love the desperate comments above. So now people have accepted that housing costs too much they are clinging to the hope that a lack of new homes will simply keep prices artificaly high...

That's great logic. House prices are too high. So lets not build anymore so they reamain too high and we don't get the housing we need in this city..

And why ? Simply so people can sit and tell their friends how much their hosue is worth.

Sad, sad state of affairs. This is a credit bubble bursting. It is the supply and demand for credit that matters. Demand and supply of houses is only one small part of the equation. People can't afford a one bed flat in Gorgie for 130k anymore. Whether 200 new flats are built in Leith or not has little impact on the situation.

House prices are coming down. Face facts people. It is a good thing for most.
7

Logie Almond,

18/08/2008 12:49:53
We can but hope that this will kill the "Caltongate" development.
8

FC Barcelona,

18/08/2008 12:50:21
#6 'rolls eyes' were you not slapped down by several readers last week when it was announced prices in edinburgh, aberdeen and glasgow were still rising? why do you jump for jolly at the prospect of house price falls ? have you been a bitter renter or jealous cooncil tenant for too long?

House prices in the 3 largest cities in scotland are still rising and you are having a hard time accepting this fact.
9

calum,

18/08/2008 13:08:40
And as SarahB has been saying for months, the case for the TramLINE is based on full development at Granton and the Waterfront. Now we have a 1/4 built wasteland with even the half-Council owned company Buredi having doubts about Granton. Says it all, really.
Some analysts are predicting that this slump could take 10 years to recover. So what are the Councillors saying now?
10

alex patersons English teacher,

18/08/2008 13:14:03
6 reamain high,

I thinks thats a paper thin arguement.
11

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 13:35:30
10

Listen to ccc on this one, apparently he has been reading into this subject for ages and is a world authority on it
12

Andrew Kent,

EDINBURGH 18/08/2008 13:39:47
Yeah thats the case for the tram well and truly finished in my opinion. I knew it would only be a matter of time until it would become clear that there will not be a new "city the size of Dundee" built down at Granton.
13

alex patersons English teacher,

18/08/2008 13:42:07
11
copy copy that, lets do him the curtsey of that at least.
14

TonyBLiar,

at a bus stop 18/08/2008 13:44:35
OH NO this will mean the developers wont be able to pay a lot of cash to the trams project

hope the City can bale it out once more
15

tomias,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 13:48:28
Buy a rug and go begging on the streets; I survived much more than this- I am comfortable; so? Jack- am OK !
16

Liz,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 13:57:18
#8
"House prices in the 3 largest cities in scotland are still rising and you are having a hard time accepting this fact."

Urrm, actually you are incorrect, even the BBC are admitting it now....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/regions/html/region12.stm
Glasgow, Aberdeen and Edinburgh all showed prices dropping in the last quarter. If this trend continues into the next quarter we will start seeing year on year negatives in both Edinburgh and Glasgow with Aberdeen not far away from it.

The money simply is no longer there to be borrowed at such high levels for house purchases. People may want to buy homes but so long as the computer continues to say "No", prices will continue to fall.
17

,

18/08/2008 14:13:44
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18

,

18/08/2008 14:28:07
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19

Statsman,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 14:29:34
The tram to nowhere.
20

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 14:48:00
#18 says: "article on todays bbc website shows that London prices have dropped by 5% in the last quarter"

If that's the Rightmove numbers you're referring to, that was a 5.3% drop in the last *month*
21

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 14:51:35
#14 Scallywag:

"Developers are normally given 5 years to get started after planning permission has been granted. While they may sit tight just now, they will have to get sarted or rework the plans at some point. If some go bust in the meantime from sitting on land they can't afford to develop then some big vulture with cash will be waiting in the wings ready to buy cheap and then develop the site. That ladies and gentlemen is the way the free market and capitalism works."

I'm a big fan of free-market capitalism. However land for domestic housing has no fallen in value by 20% from peak and still no sign of buying by vulture funds.

The sad fact of the matter is that after a quarter-century credit bubble, there's going to be scant credit available during the debt-deflation that will follw it. That's likely to pertain for at least a few years and potentially a couple of decades, as in Japan.

Yes, there will be a recovery, but for some of us, it's going to be after we retire.
22

,

18/08/2008 14:55:01
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23

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 15:06:27
#23: Yes, highly likely. The key clue at the end of a credit bubble is the "Divergence" where volume numbers fall even as prices continue up. This divergence marks the top of the market and the size of the fall in volume numbers gives an indication of the size of the coming fall in prices.
24

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 15:10:47
I am a solicitor within one of the largest property firms in Edinburgh and I would note the following:

1. no 6 you come accross really badly and seem to relish in the fact that other people are worried about this which makes you a bit or a idiot;
2. there is no confidence crisis in the housing market whereby this is all down to funding issues;
3. the problem stems from the fact that without funding at the bottom end of the market the peopple selling the flat in Gorgie cannot buy a terraced hgouse in Cortorphine and the person selling in Corstorphine cannot move to Trinity etc etc - so only when funding at the bottom end of the market become more available the wheels will start moving again;
4. I hate to agree with no 6 but prices are coming down and people are taking longer to sell which is really annoying but it will come back when the banks become more comfortable and start lending again;
5. it may take 2 to 5 years for the banks to get back to normal which is really annoying but it will happen;
6. for the people who have to sell now do not be too annoyed by the fact you seem to be selling for less whereby I can assure you everything has gone down so you will be able to buy for less also;
7. the biggest problem is for people who purchased their first house at the beginning of the year with a 100% mortgage as there is a chance the property will have decreased in value - for all those in such a position just sit tight and ride it out whereby take the time to get your property looking good;
8. take a look at the new-builds on Bonnyhaugh Lane (they are just along from the Westpoint development discuss in the article) in which my mate bought a flat - out of the 8 flats 6 sold in two weeks whereby the price for new builds seems reasonable again.

Cheers

L
25

,

18/08/2008 15:29:26
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26

ccc,

18/08/2008 15:44:36
#25&26.

Good to hear some honesty for a change. Very refreshing. I have been pushing this paper to publish realistic stories of what is happening for almost a year now - because that is when this all really kicked off.

I am just the messenger. Please don't shoot me. :)

"you come accross really badly and seem to relish in the fact that other people are worried about this which makes you a bit or a idiot"

I think you will find that I, amongst others, have been telling people for almost a year that this was coming. We have been ridiculed, laughed at and abused over and over again by people simply desperate to see house prices to remain high. The simple fact is very few people benefit from high house prices. Many 'think' they benefit but do not really.

Yes I do relish what is happening right now. House prices will get back to normal salary multiples, as they always do. That is 3-4 times the average wage. When that is the case I will buy myself a place to live in as a HOME, and be glad that I had the intelligence to see this all coming and ignore the desperate please from all and sundry telling me to 'get on the ladder at all costs' because 'house prices always go up'.

You are right about the upwards effect on this though. The housing market is a pyramid system - when the bottom falls out the rest follows.

lso I don't think you understand about the lenders. What they are getting back to just now IS NORMAL. The last 5 years when people got huge mortgages, 125% loans, self certification etc.. is ABNORMAL.

Interest rates have averaged about 7-8% over the last 30 years in the UK. I don't think people understand what this period of 'historically low interest rates' means. They are USUALLY higher !!

It will be a long long time before banks start giving people 125% mortgages again. During that time prices will come down to reasonable levels again. That is good for those wanting to buy their first place (If they have patience) and good for those wa
27

ccc,

18/08/2008 15:45:33
nting to move to a larger home. Yes some people will lose out. Such is life. Us first time buyers are slowly becoming the winners in all this. About time too. :)
28

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 15:55:04
28

How exactly are you a winner? Do you really think many people are going to drop there prices. Prices have been hyped up for ages and now people expect these prices for there property. I am currently trying to sell my house and we are now faced with letting the property as we are no way prepared to drop by 10-20% for some spotty geek like you.

P.S. Good luck getting a mortgage
29

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 16:13:53
The Landlord opines:

"no 6 you come accross really badly and seem to relish in the fact that other people are worried about this which makes you a bit or a idiot"

You must be new around here, Schadenfreude is not only acceptable, but encouraged.
30

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 16:18:34
The Landlord again: "it may take 2 to 5 years for the banks to get back to normal which is really annoying but it will happen"

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this *is* normal. It was the 25 years of the credit bubble which made an abnormal amount of credit available.

If anyone imagines we're going back to that this side of 2070, I have a very expensive tulip bulb to sell them.
31

Spotty Geek,

Wauchope Street 18/08/2008 16:21:10
29#

Are you referring to me?
32

GR,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:23:10
Lets not resort to personal insults 29. CCC makes some valid points although perhaps could have phrased some of them more considerately.
There will be blood on the floor for homeowners falling into negative equity, and I truly feel for them.
Not everyone will be able to let their property and wait indefinately for a sale - but it is a reasonable short to medium term solution.
Property prices, like share prices a few years ago, have been and remain to "hot" and there has to be some re-adjustment to price expectations.
I have owned property in Edinburgh since the mid 70's, and know fullwell that the present asking prices are rediculous - asking prices will fall if you are serious about selling.

33

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:27:07
Bottoms Up - we too have been suffering over the past two months having said that our figures seemed to improve over the last two weeks which is nice! I hear you about the new builds at the Waterfront - there are simply to many off them in an area that only appeals to a small percentage of the population; having said that many of the flats at the Shore are really nice and I can see the appeal - although for £250K I would still prefer a two bedroom dive in Bruntsfield/Tollcross (but that is just me and as I can see the appeal of a nice new place)! Good luck with your sales and hopefully they will get better soon!

CCC - I did not realise people had been giving you stick about the prices, however, you should be slightly more tactful when you discuss things like money as there are people out there who are really suffering! No I understand the banking crisis just fine and I agree that whilst 125% is way too much and Northern Rock were foolish in specialising in high risk the banks need to release more products for first time buyers - and believe me they will as they make good money from them. Another issue is that prices have been too high for too long now and as someone has mentioned above the majority of people will simple just not sell thus reducing the price lowering effect! I predict that prices will go down by 15% and then level off!

Cheers

L
34

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 16:27:51
No, your sister ccc
35

Spotty Geek,

Wauchope Street 18/08/2008 16:30:18
Maybe we'll get back to the times when you can swap your old Mondeo for a house in Niddrie.
36

ccc,

18/08/2008 16:31:10
#29.

"I am currently trying to sell my house and we are now faced with letting the property as we are no way prepared to drop by 10-20% for some spotty geek like you.

P.S. Good luck getting a mortgage"


As I have said numerous times I am simply the messenger. I don't think you quite understand how htis works. If no-one is willing to pay you what you want - your property is no longer worth that amount.

Serious bit of advice though. I know so many people being todl the same thing 'Just rent it out instead'. I take it your EA told you rental prices are going to go up soon ? I am afraid that with as many people doing exactly as you are the chance is slim.

If I was you, and I know it is easy for me to say, I would cut the price and get out with marginally less than you expected. That would be a win situation.

Serious advice. Now you could trust the advcie I am giving you, or trust the advice of the EA. However ask yourself who seems to know more about this situation.
37

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 16:31:10
33

GR, you obviously don't read the daily drivele from CCC. Reducing to insults is about all he understands.
38

Liz,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:37:33
#29
But there will come a point where some people will start to have to reduce their prices (unemployment, looming reposession, the fact they can no longer afford the mortgage for example) and if they do you will also have to if you really do want to sell.

Good luck with the letting if that is your final decision, I hope you can afford to take on two mortgages (assuming you are buying elsewhere) in a time of relativly static wages and increasing interest rates. I have been recently been reading cases of people who have become landlords almost by accident (as you appear to be heading) who are struggling with voids on their property and the rent not covering the mortgage - but dont let that worry you as after all Edinburgh is special. Besides, good luck with converting the mortgage on your property to a BTL one - you may find the banks less than helpful.
39

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:38:15
No 30 - unfortunately you are wrong! My cousin is a director at RBS and already they are gearing themselves up to release new products which were temporarilly pulled - trust me the others will follow as they make good money from these products! It is a fact that as the population grows and more people get divorced the demand for housing increases - as you come accross as a smart a@~ I am certain you understand the rule about supply and demand! Time will tell so we could debate this matter at length without the assistance of a crystal ball but in the end I am certain it will come back way sooner than 2070 - get the bulb ready for sale!

L
40

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:42:37
Liz - I just secured a buy-to-let mortgage for a flat last week and the product changed twice in my favour over the last month - it was simple and approved with a standard deposit! What is even better is the fact that I advertised it through my friends letting agency and out off the 3 people who viewed the flat that evening every single one of them wanted it whereby they were struggling to find somewhere decent! Try to be less smug it is a really unattractive feature in a woman!
41

,

18/08/2008 16:43:15
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42

Liz,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:43:37
#40
"as the population grows and more people get divorced"

So that is more and more single income households? A single person can afford far less than a couple so whilst demand may increase the ability to pay silly prices will have decreased.
43

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 16:44:06
37 & 39

Guys, thanks for your concern. However, I have about 20% left to pay on my current house and will be quids in on a let. And yes, I have managed to get a buy-to-let mortgage. I didn't go round chapping on banks doors, if you go to independent financial advisor they can search the market for you and get a far better deal. The market will be back in 5 years and then I will flog my house, by that time some poor student will have paid the rest of the mortgage for me. Win win!
44

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 16:46:01
CCC:

"Serious bit of advice though. I know so many people being todl the same thing 'Just rent it out instead'. I take it your EA told you rental prices are going to go up soon ? I am afraid that with as many people doing exactly as you are the chance is slim"

Indeed. As in every debt-deflation before this one, rents are headed down. It has already started:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/aug/15/renting.property

45

Liz,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:48:02
#41
And the fact I am a woman is relevant because?!
46

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:48:13
Frank - I like your style! It seems that Liz has a wee bee in her bonnet!

Liz - you are right they cannot afford to buy and they rent thus keeping the buy-to-let market strong! Sad but true!
47

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 16:49:28
40 & 41

Thank god, someone talking some sense.

When I got my buy-to-let there were thousands to pick from.

There are 2 many people reading the papers and not getting off the @r5es to find out for themselves what the market is doing.
48

Sarcasm,

18/08/2008 16:49:33
25, 34, 40, 41

If you're a solicitor then AP's english teacher is genuine as well.

He/she would be here all day with that set.

Have a word with your secretary.
That will be £50.
49

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:52:44
Sorry 45 you are wrong - I just got £575 for a one bedroom flat and the other people who viewed were gutted when I told them I was going to rent it to somebody else! Perhaps rent will go down in the future but given the situation now whereby first time buyers cannot get a mortgage I think they will stany high as everyone needs to live somewhere!
50

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 16:55:26
Ha ha 49 that is a good one - unlike the civil servants I have to reply quickly and don't check the typing I can assure you my letters are fine though! Thanks for your concern though!
51

,

18/08/2008 16:55:28
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52

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 16:57:00
#40: If you understand the banking situation then you know that there's scant chance that they can securitise new mortgages. I know of only one bank that got away a significant securitisation in the whole of 2008. That market is more than 99% dead and likely to stay that way for at least the length of the debt-deflation we're entering.

One could argue that the banks will hold them on their own books, but their books are already so wrecked by the collapse in the value of CDOs and mortgage-backs that they need the taxpayer to bail them out hand over fist.

The Building Societies are the other option, but they're now redeeming mortgages at a faster rate than they're making them. They look odds on to have a net flow out of housing loans in 2008.

The hedge funds meanwhile are deleveraging, so there's unlikely to be money coming in from that source for a while.

Yes, there'll be divorces and so on, but if they can't get loans for a house, they won't increase housing demand. meanwhile, when the recession arrives, immigrants will be moving out of the UK to somewhere they can still earn money. They're going to leave empty flats as they depart for richer climes.

If I were going to listen to anyone connected to the RBS, it'd be Satajit Das. He's had this one pegged for years.
53

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 16:58:10
50

Buy-to- let mortgage = £500 per month

Rent = £950 per month

Silly me CCC & Liz are right, perhaps I should reconsider!!
54

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 17:01:40
Bottoms Up - I think we are all in agreement house prices have fallen; however people do not agree on the amount of the drop and the potential time frame for the credit crunch!

I get copied-in to our sales figures which include a note on prices so I can see it first hand.
55

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 17:09:29
53 - indeed you are correct; RBS have known about this for a long time in fact the particular gentleman I know told me about all this a year ago and I remember thinking he must be wrong! What you have failed to consider however is the profits made by the banks so far and your comments regarding the securitisation market are not completely true - although I do believe that whoever came up with the idea should be shot!

I would place a large bet with anyone now that we will see RBS posting a substantial profit for the last 6 months of next year.
56

ccc,

18/08/2008 17:13:46
Cheers for the updates Landlord. Good to hear some honset opinion from inside 'the business' for a change !!

As I see it EA's and solicitors need prices to go down. Sure you prefer if they are higher as commision is higher, however any commision is better than none - right ?

I think the stand off is well and truly in swing in Edinburgh, how long it goes on for is another matter.

As for renting I keep a track on prices and amounts across Edinburgh. No sign of any large increase in rents, and supply is not falling either. With many big builders looking to become landlords as their properties will not sell I cant see rents going up by any huge amount.
57

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 17:13:53
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are headed for new record lows today. A federal bailout is looking more and more certain. That will ring in stage two of the credit crisis and make the current dearth of mortgage credit look like a veritable flood.

The Fat Lady is in good voice today it seems...
58

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 17:15:26
It seems the conversation has died - I suppose it is after 5pm so all the civil servants will have left for the evening!

Nice chatting to you all today and it is good to see that Edinburgh still has a healthy class division which comes accross in peoples views! I am from a working class background so no comments please - or perhaps you already knew that due to my poor English - ha ha ha ha you are so funny!

Cheers

The Landlord
59

ccc,

18/08/2008 17:17:21
Frank:

"Buy-to- let mortgage = £500 per month

Rent = £950 per month"

Right so you have rented your place out and you are gaining 450 gross on it per month.

How about you also tell us how much you have paid into this property over the past who knows 30 years + interest. Also let us know where you are living at present. If that isn't free then your situation is clearly not as great as you think.

This great idea that property somehow gives you money for nothing is insane. It may do at exactly the right time in exactly the right place - however generally I doubt it is the greatest investment in the World.

A house should be a home. If that was how people thought we would not be in this mess just now.
60

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 17:19:39
Poo - there is no doubt this will cause a knock-on effect in the UK but as you may already know it feels as if the US economy has struck bottom and is starting to recover a bit! Only time will tell Poo unless you have that crystal ball!
61

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 17:20:25
#56: what do you reckon is untrue about what I've said?

As for the banks making a profit: first they have to have cash to put at risk to do so. There are hard regulatory limits on capital ratios, and so they must recapitalise in order to be able to bring substantial funds to the mortgage markets.

As house prices fall worldwide, their mortgage-backs and so on will be worth less and less. The Bank of England will soon have to make liquidity calls on them against falling values of the mortgage-backs they've lodged there for taxpayer loans. The long and the short of it is that the banks will be merely cherry-picking in the mortgage markets for years.

Mises had this pegged when he said "There is no mathematical solution to debt". We've had the credit bubble and now we have to pay for it with a debt-deflation. That's going to make credit extremely scarce by the end of it, and drive prices down hugely as the assets trade more and more for cash. It happens after every large bubble and we'll just have to live with it until it's over.
62

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 17:25:53
#61: US exports are improving because of the prior fall in the Dollar. I don't see much else improving there. The predictions that one in ten mortgage-holders there will be foreclosed before this is finished are starting to look ominously correct, if not conservative. Meanwhile house prices in California are now almost 30% down year-on-year.

From where I'm sitting, the US and the UK look like they're going the same way Japan did in 1989 and Japanese property prices have been falling pretty much since.
63

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 17:27:49
Poo - it is good to see you were paying attention in economics but what you have stated above is frankly nonsense! I agree with your analysis of the cycle and we have seen this before, however, what you have set out above is a fire sale which will not happen.

RBS as we speak is recapitalising by off-loading various assets and to keep the books in order; and RBS is not the only bank. As you should know the banks do not just have assets which revolve around property!
64

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 17:29:41
60

I have lived in the house for 2 years, and have worked extremely hard (self employed may I add) to pay of chuncks of my mortgage. If more people got of the bums and tried working hard instead of whinging about what they don't have, the world would be a better place.

Truth is, I will make £450 profit a month on the property. That must be hard to swallow for you.
65

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 17:41:15
60

Following on, I have bought a 5 bedroomed house in Blackhall. And yes it would of been great to get the equtity out of my current house, but truth is thats not going to happen and I accept that. Buy-to-let is the second option, but I would rather take the monthly profit from rent than sell my house for some below average price.
66

ccc,

18/08/2008 17:44:39
Nothing wrong with you working very hard. So do I. Where exactly do you come up with the idea that I don't work hard ? I am also self employed. Just like yourself. The only difference between us two is I am waiting until prices become reasonable to purchase a house. You did not. Fine - that is your choice - but if you timed it wrong don't whinge about it. :)

I plan to pay zero interst on the home I eventually buy. Wouldn't you agree that's a pretty smart plan ?

So please explain how you are making £450 profit on this property. Again how much have you paid into it so far and how much is is costing you per month for your current living expenses. I am pretty certain it is more than the £450 'profit' you are apparently making.

As I have said. This idea that property makes you "money for nothing" is insane. It is the rot fo all therse problems. It will be destroyed over the next few years. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. The sooner people wake up to this the better. Then we can start spending our cash on things far more interesting and fun than getting a simple roof over our heads.
67

FrankGallagher,

18/08/2008 17:47:51
67

Like I'm going to tell you on EN forum.

If you don't want to believe it then I can assure you that I won't lose any sleep over it.

Seems like you are doing exactly what i'm talking about, paying off someones mortgage, while you don't have a pot to p155 in.
68

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 17:55:20
#64: I only did a Higher in economics, but I do think the situation in the CDO markets is headed towards a fire sale. It will get even worse if this hits the CDS markets.

As for the other assets of banks. US Alt-A mortgages just hit a default rate of around 11% while prime mortgages hit 2.44% and rising. The crisis isn't confined to subprime any longer and of course there are many more mortgage-backs and CDOs built on prime mortgages than on subprime, so this will hit the banks harder.

Meanwhile, the CDOs built on credit card and car loans are also becoming more impaired. Commercial property is starting to look like a bigger disaster zone than domestic. So far commercial bonds are holding up, but even there the cracks can be found.

In the US, we're going to see hundreds of banks going down, and certainly more federally organised bailouts. It's hard to guage yet how bad it will get here because we seem to be 18 months or so behind the US in the cycle, but I don't see anything to justify optimism.
69

Sarcasm,

18/08/2008 18:06:45
59
Thanks for that, for a minute I was beginning to doubt myself.

I suppose you'll be getting ready to out for more soliciting.

You really must try harder.
This initial consultation was free.
70

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

18/08/2008 18:22:34
lets all hope this crunch doesn't affect the trams
71

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 18:41:36
Mario (73) - I doubt it will affect the trams but it may very well affect the buses.
72

calum,

18/08/2008 19:07:34
Ah, Mario's back. Brought back Sellotape with you? Or have you got a new alter ego?
73

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

18/08/2008 19:15:24
Looks like you landlords will soon be able to pick up bargains for your portfolio:

http://www.independent.co.uk/money/mortgages/buytolet-landlords-in-mortgage-arrears-899527.html
74

calum,

18/08/2008 19:16:12
.....and Jenny MacArthur's back on another thread! Must have all been on the same flight. No, can't be, Jenny is against all forms of pollution, eh Mario?
75

Statsman,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 19:38:23
74 Sarah B

Actually does affect the trams. There will be less money from planning gain for line 1b so it much less likely to be built.
76

Lord_S,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 20:10:07
It's pretty scary when someone who confuses "have" with "of" ("And yes it would of been great")can somehow scrape together enough money to buy a detached house in blackhall. If someone so retarded can do that then we all can. Hoorah! Surely we just need to "work harder"! Unless he gets help from "the cooncil"?

Oh, and easy_money what drugs are you taking to make Edinburgh seem so wonderful? Stop taking them and you'll see a depressing city with low wages unable to sustain ridiculous house prices or rents.
77

ccc,

18/08/2008 20:17:35
Easy money..........

You are a broken record. You have still to explain how a flat that costs 200k is a good investment if you get £800 a month rent. Still waiting....

Unless you have anything intelligent to say you would be better wasting your time on something else.

In case you haven't noticed we have 2 people in this story who really know what the score is. They are both telling you tat the Edinburgh market is a mess. If you are not going to listen to me you can at least listen to them.

Frank Gallagher.

No need to be so sharp. :)

I am simply giving you free advice that could save you a fortune in the long run. You currently own two assets that are depreciating - at a lightning speed. You are kidding yourself if you think you are making a 'profit' in any way.

So your making a 'profit' of 450 per month ? That is forgetting the fortune the second property will be costing you.So what if your first property loses 10k value in the next year - which is pretty much guranteed - at least.

Your 450 per month 'profit' disappears. Of course if your property drops 20k in the next year then you have lost a serious amount of money.

Your choice of course. However I feel you have been lured by this 'You can't go wrong with property' nonsense.

How about you tell that to those living in San Diego, Florida and the south of Spain right now. Places that are quite amazing to live in - yet are seeing the value of property plummet. Do the simple sums. Property at he moment is an investment for losers. Pure and simple.

I am seriously giving you free advice to help you. Not sure why I should but I feel it is the right thing to do. If you stick to your current plan you could end up bankrupting yourself.
78

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 23:29:29
Statsman (78) - yes, of course, you are quite right. I was thinking more from an operational perspective.

It will be interesting to see what the developers have to say about their contributions to the tram, given recent changes in economic circumstances. I know that the Council, back in December, were looking to borrow £12.9m of its agreed £45m against future developer contributions, although I am not sure if that was given the go-ahead. It may be that more borrowing will now be required.
79

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 23:31:20
Sorry, Statsman, I should have added "... that more borrowing will now be required just to complete Phase 1A".
80

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

19/08/2008 00:04:36
#75 - Sellotape had an unnatural, unhealthy & obsessive homosexually orientated interest in me
81

techpunk,

19/08/2008 00:59:37
ccc

every time i read your posts, i cringe.

really.

twit.

82

techpunk,

19/08/2008 01:08:10
tactless, gormless and stupid.
83

bumpkin,

19/08/2008 09:25:05
this whole fiasco reminds me of the story of the emperors new clothes.
The only one with any sense was the wee boy.
Time for a survey of edin property t see how many houses are empty, and if we actually need any more.
To all you property speculators, welcome to the real world, and remember, investments can go down as well as up.
Oh and just bin those trams.
84

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 19/08/2008 09:38:37
Poo - if I had your attitude to life there would be no point in getting out of bed, fortunately I do not!

Sarcasm - unlike you I do not need to try hard but thanks anyway!

Cheers

L
85

Spotty Geek,

Wauchope Street 19/08/2008 10:09:32
Good to see you are back Mario - have you been on holiday?
86

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

19/08/2008 11:24:56
87 Landlord reckons: "Poo, if I had your attitude to life there would be no point in getting out of bed"

I do have a little trouble with that some mornings, but that's been the case since I was a teenager. I have great faith in freemarket capitalism and see the debt-deflation as just something we'll have to get through.

Meanwhile, by understanding the structure of the credit cycle and how the end of bubbles has played out in the past, I will make money from it. When things bottom out, I'll buy a house for very much less than I'd pay at the moment and no doubt live happily ever after.

Anyway, because I'm fascinated by financial manias and bubbles, I'm really quite honoured to have the opportunity to have a front row seat as the largest cradit bubble in history bursts. I think it's fascinating.
87

Jaimeson,

Scotland 19/08/2008 11:30:33
All of you.
The housing market is a classical market in economic terms, known as a ‘cobweb model’. You will find it described very clearly on Wikipaedia. It is a supply and demand cyclical market and occurs because of production lags in the supply of a commodity (houses). When prices rise supply is increased; sellers of existing houses enter the market and builders build more new houses. But the effect of this increased supply on the market is delayed due to having to find a buyer, building time, planning delays, et al. Thus for a time demand exceeds supply and prices rapidly increase. Alas, eventually prices peak (people think houses are poor value for money or they can’t afford them), supply catches up with and surpasses demand and the market becomes saturated (like now). Prices then decline very quickly as houses are sold cheaply by builders, and re-possessors, until soon we are back at the beginning of a new cycle where supply and demand are in equilibrium.
The credit crunch is not the root cause of the the current fall in house prices although it has hastened its beginning and will affect the length of it and the ultimate fall in prices. The cycle would have come to an end of its own accord at sometime for the reasons above.
There have been four of these cycles including the current one since the 1970s
88

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 19/08/2008 11:47:53
I'm really quite honoured to have the opportunity to have a front row seat as the largest cradit bubble in history bursts. I think it's fascinating - Poo what an incredibly naive comment and another poor attempt to convince me you are an intellectual! You find other peoples misery fascinating - oh dear! Ha ha - I knew you were in the not bought my first house camp! So predictable it hurts! I am certain you will be able to spend the next 30 minutes browsing the web to copy the thought of others which may show your arguement is correct but as I mentioned before only time will tell!
89

The Landlord,

Edinburgh 19/08/2008 11:53:59
Come on Poo - you can do it; you can answer in the next 5 minutes before the page changes with the new news - come on!
90

HughB,

Edinburgh 19/08/2008 12:07:02
Great.

Edinburgh is no longer growing, so we don't need the trams.

The council doesn't have to knock down Meadowbank stadium to build more houses, because they won't be needed.

Edinburgh Zoo won't have to sell off land so that houses can be built there.

Various hotel projects will probably be shelved.

Caltongate is no longer required.

I'm sure there are many more examples of things that will no longer be needed, because Edinburgh is no longer growing - contributions please.

Every cloud has a silver lining.
91

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

19/08/2008 12:21:12
90 Jamieson: I agree with you about the UK's 198-year housing cycles. However I think this time it overlays the end of the long 3-generational credit cycle (this is the fourth since the South Seas Bubble burst in 1720). Thus it is a lack of credit which is driving things and will continue to do so.

That said, it could be bad news this hit just at the end of a housing cycle and the compounded effect may be worse than it would otherwise have been.
92

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

19/08/2008 12:23:07
Damn - "18-year" that should have been of course.
93

Buttress,

19/08/2008 13:14:13
What about Mountgrange's Caltongate? Let's hope that is shelved too, before the UNESCO visit?

www.eh8.org.uk


I note that the Chamber of Commerce (which supported the Caltongate plans so vociferously (in the press, at the planning meeting, by giving Chande of Mountgrange its Property Portfolio to manage...) has gone very quiet about the credit crunch and the downturn in building work.

 

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