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Monday, 2nd November 2009 Change Date Latest Issue

Salmond launches independence plan

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Published Date:
14 August 2007
FIRST Minister Alex Salmond today promised "a new chapter in Scottish politics" as he set out the SNP's plans for a referendum on independence. He formally launched draft legislation which, if passed, would be likely to lead to a vote in 2010 on breaking away from the UK.
The SNP leader claimed it was the "settled will" of the Scottish people for the Holyrood parliament to have more powers and said "no change was no longer an option".

Mr Salmond launched a "national conversation" on Scotland's future at Napier

University's Craiglockhart campus. In a White Paper he set out what the SNP sees as the three "realistic" choices for the country:

• Retaining the present devolved set-up.

• Redesigning devolution by extending the powers of the Scottish Parliament in specific areas.

• Full independence.

The White Paper also includes the draft wording of the ballot paper for a referendum.

This asks voters whether they agree or disagree "that the Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of a United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".

Mr Salmond said: "As a sovereign people, the people of Scotland have the right to decide how we are governed.

"In [the May] election, the people voted clearly for further development of the way we govern ourselves in Scotland. We in the government believe that independence would be the best for our country."

But Mr Salmond said the "national conversation" could result in other options being put on the ballot paper as well.

Saying he was "relaxed" about that possibility, he went on: "A multi-option referendum requires the alternatives to be as clear as independence or the no-change options already are.

"The opportunity now presents itself for those who want another option in a referendum to define that option and present the case for inclusion on the ballot paper".

The White Paper explains that the 1603 Union of the Crowns would remain intact, with the Queen as Head of State. Scotland would become a full member of the European Union, the United Nations and other international bodies.

It says Scotland could decide to continue with membership of international defence alliances, principally Nato, or could opt for a defence posture outside a nuclear-armed alliance, similar to Ireland and Sweden.

An independent Scotland would have to consider the role and scale of its armed forces, and might choose to emphasise international peacekeeping and disaster relief missions, the document says.

The nuclear-armed submarines of the Royal Navy would have to be removed from Scotland, and based elsewhere.

The White Paper states that a re-design of the devolution settlement could involve "fiscal autonomy", with control over the overall level of taxation, rather than just the existing limited tax-varying powers.

Other responsibilities that could be transferred from Westminster to Holyrood include anti-terrorism legislation, minimum wage levels, the retirement age, the postal service, and broadcasting. Such a move would also be likely to require a referendum.

He said: "Whatever the differences between the political parties, the message of the election was obvious - the constitutional position of Scotland must move forward.

"I therefore propose that we have a national conversation on our future to allow the people of Scotland to debate, reflect and then decide on the type of government which best equips us for the future.

"This paper is intended as the starting point and inspiration for that conversation."

Members of the public have been invited to join the "national conversation" by logging onto a dedicated website at www.anationalconversation.com, where comments can be added to a new online blog.

There are to be a series of public events seeking active engagement with voters, involving the First Minister, civic and business leaders and academics. The Executive will also carry out opinion surveys and focus groups.

But despite today's high-profile launch, the SNP's minority administration faces an uphill struggle to pass the referendum Bill. Mike Pringle, Edinburgh South Lib Dem MSP, said: "You can have all the fanfare you like, there is simply no chance of this referendum happening what-soever.

"The three main opposition parties have said that they are against it and will vote it out of parliament so I don't know why the SNP are wasting money pursuing this.

"Alex Salmond would be better off concentrating his efforts in improving Scotland instead of pursuing something that's not going to happen.

"They want this conversation to last for the next three years but the SNP would be better off concentrating on the real issues affecting Scotland such as what are we going to do about the council tax."

Scottish Tory leader Annabel Goldie said: "Don't be fooled, this White Paper is about independence no matter how it is dressed up with bells, whistles and frills.

"At its very core is the SNP's nationalist separatist agenda."

Labour, the Tories and the Lib Dems issued an unprecedented joint statement ahead of today's publication, accusing the SNP of wasting taxpayers' money on a "narrow and failed agenda".

"We will listen - but we fear this will be less of a conversation than a one-way megaphone," said the party leaders.

Responding to today's announcement, Scottish Secretary Des Browne said independence did not have the support of the Scottish people Mr Browne said: "Two thirds of Scottish voters voted for parties that support the Union in the Scottish Parliament elections.

"We created a Scottish Parliament - with powerful primary legislative powers on devolved matters - because we wanted to give the Scottish people greater democratic accountability in these areas.

"But the Government also believes that certain decisions are sensibly taken for the UK as a whole.

"The Union provides us with a strong voice in the world - for Scotland as well as the other countries making up the UK."

Page 1 of 1

 
1

eric,

Lothian 14/08/2007 11:58:42

Good luck

2

Megan H,

14/08/2007 12:14:03

Joe, You are so negative maybe you should get the next train out. I doubt if you will be missed.

3

Meles Tejon,

The bath 14/08/2007 12:28:46

I thought that the majority didn't vote SNP...

4

Bzzzz1314,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 12:49:54

It is time Scotland had her own voice,
100% in favour.

Strange that the unionists believe so heavily that it would be a bad thing but are against giving the people the right to vote against it.

is ridiculous all the dismay about the nationalists being nationalistic... funny that..

5

DavidPerth,

Perth 14/08/2007 13:30:21

Joe, can I take your bags to the airport for you? Mind and send us all a postcard from where every you're going.

6

DavidPerth,

Perth 14/08/2007 13:32:31

All the rhetoric from the opposition parties is fear pure and simple. I think that Labour, Lib-Dems and the Conservatives are terrified of having a debate and sensible discussion. My god, could you imagine if we came out the other end and most people thought it was a good idea?

I've said it before on this forum, but I'll say it again. I'll accept a wide range of options from Scottish independence through to a truly federal UK. I don't really mind as long as I'm asked for my opinion and Scotland governs herself well.

7

Boy Wonder,

14/08/2007 13:32:33

Democracy is supposed to guarantee us the freedom to choose, to make our own future ... but the Unionists want to deny us that choice.

8

EF1903,

14/08/2007 13:38:35

Another 'wee eck' ego trip. Minority government run by egomaniac. Don't know about how anyone else feels I think 'wee eck' is like a rash, seems everywhere you go he is there getting his pic taken with that smug face of his.

9

Beergut,

Embra 14/08/2007 13:41:44

Scotland has had to kow-tow to what London decides is important for far too long. The whole idea of devolution was to give us a voice and Salmond & Co. have certainly succeeded in doing that in a few months in a way the Labour & Lib Dems never managed in 10 years! Too afraid of upsetting their London chums they were but at least the Wee Joke will get his peerage out of it. What did we get? Rid of him at last thank goodness but precious little else.

10

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 13:43:38

A labour tory allience, ha. Just watch the labour party workers jump ship over that one

11

Name,

14/08/2007 13:44:26

This is democracy. The majority of the electorate voted against nat rat partys.

Mr Man Boobs will still try no doubt though. Good luck to him :-)

12

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 13:48:33

ef1903, from your post,
(alex salmond is)
everywhere you go he is there getting his pic taken with that smug face of his.

Well at least that proves he's not two faced like the labour tory numpties

13

The Judge,

Outside Looking In 14/08/2007 13:50:45

Zero chance of independence in my or anybody else's lifetime. The "establishment" won't allow it. Scotland is far too valuable to South East of Englandshire.

14

Gordon S.,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 13:51:33

"Responding to today's announcement, Scottish Secretary Des Browne said independence did not have the support of the Scottish people Mr Browne said: "Two thirds of Scottish voters voted for parties that support the Union in the Scottish Parliament elections"

Yeah, ofcourse they did?? Thats why there were 150,000 spoilt ballot papers. I'd love to have seen the true result had they not been spoilt.

15

JG,

Fife 14/08/2007 13:53:04

I object to this smug, self-obsessed man wasting my money like this.

16

cheuchtar,

14/08/2007 13:53:39

I voted "yes" on the referendum poll and the vote did not increase. I voted "no|" and it moved up by one inmmediately!Maybe a glitch, I would like someone else to try.

17

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 13:54:05

I can imadgine walking into the Dundee labour club, and seeing a banner saying we support the tories

18

Beergut,

Embra 14/08/2007 13:54:59

#12 No the majority voted FOR the other parties. Pity so many thickos would vote for my old welly boot if it was on a labour ticket and the rest would be voting Tory instead of Lib Dem if it hadn't been for Maggie screwing Scotland every chance she got.

19

Tru Scot,

Over Here 14/08/2007 13:56:34

This Alex Salmond is a man of his word, now there is a new concept in politics, to have someone stand up for what they believe in and act on it. Just think what could happen if the whole government was like this. Oh hold on it is, I tend to like this new idea of Scots governing Scots in Scotland, excellent idea whoever thought this one up
Good luck Alex you are a scholar and a gentleman.
I for one salute you

20

Gordon S.,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 13:57:56

#20

Well said.

21

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 13:58:49

16 JG, yeah Des Broone does seem a bit that way

22

EF1903,

14/08/2007 14:01:39

* 13

Obviously living in sussex you are not bombarded with 'egoeck' I'm even getting my bathroom checked in case he gets in there too. The only uglier egomaniac was Thatcher

23

JG,

Fife 14/08/2007 14:03:21

#22 pehman
Your comment would be sensible if the headline read "Des Broone launches independence plan".

24

Xena - Warrior Princess,

14/08/2007 14:06:23

I want a referendum to put this issue away for and for all. It ain't gonna happen!! The more you read the posts on this issue the more you get put right off the SNP and their supporters.

25

Talorthane,

14/08/2007 14:07:30

#23 EF1903

That is clearly only a matter of taste rather than fact.

26

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 14:07:58

The amount of coverage of Scottish politics on national TV has increased on a daily basis since the SNP took over, believe me thats no bad thing

27

Thank god I'm an atheist,

heaven 14/08/2007 14:08:57

Nationalism a good thing? Tell that to the Balkans.

28

Talorthane,

14/08/2007 14:09:39

#24 Dr Who

In Summary:

Scottish National Party 48%

Lib Lab Con 48%

The SNP have clearly become a match for the combined opposition.

I can't wait to see the next poll when we will see the effects of the public's opinion of the unionist alliance.

29

Talorthane,

14/08/2007 14:11:27

#29 TGIAA

You should go and do some reading to discover how diametrically opposed different types of nationalism can be.

To compare the SNP with what has happened in the Balkans is just sheer ignorance.

30

Hello,

UK 14/08/2007 14:13:19

Why not make the referendum question a four option one?
Do you want to?
1. Scrap Devolution and go back to the way it was pre 1999 and let the Scottish Office run everything.
2. Keep devolution as it is.
3. Give the Scottish Parliament more powers short of Independence.
4. Give Scotland full independence from England.

Alex Salmond says he wants to have a genuine debate about Scotland's future. There's your answer.

31

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 14:13:28

26 Xena,
not much of the warrior about you is there

32

JG,

Fife 14/08/2007 14:16:45

#31 Dr Who
Do not make assumptions on my behalf. I am quite capable of making up my own mind - I don't need Alex Salmond to tell me what I should be thinking. I don't have "red tinted sunglasses" and I don't have to apologise to anybody. The last time I looked this was a free country, and I am as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. Salmond may have quite a few relevant things to say (I was quite impressed by how quickly he responded to the plight of his constituents following the recent mud slide, for example) but I can't get past how smug and self-obsessed he undoubtedly is.

33

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 14:16:47

33 Hello,
agreed, now get the unionist to agree

34

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 14:18:47

Jg 35,
for smug read self assured and confident

35

pehman,

sussex 14/08/2007 14:25:52

14 Judge, your post;-

Zero chance of independence in my or anybody else's lifetime. The "establishment" won't allow it. Scotland is far too valuable to South East of Englandshire.

Your missing the point, The SNP are the establishment now

36

Thank god I'm an atheist,

heaven 14/08/2007 14:26:12

32
Been there, seen it and read about it.

37

JG,

Fife 14/08/2007 14:27:36

#37 pehman
Not in my view - I don't think someone who laughs at someone else's opinion most of the time is "self assured and confident", rather a bit of an @***.

38

EF1903,

14/08/2007 14:32:57

# 38 SNP the establishment oh my god. If they are the answer the question must be skewed.

39

puskas,

East Kilbride 14/08/2007 14:34:25

No17... Same happened to myself.....

40

christine B,

Melbourne 14/08/2007 14:44:12

This is an ideal opportunity to ensure that all of the political , economic and social implications of a fully independent Scotland are fully publically examined. This, after all is the key policy of the SNP and the basis of their popularity.This option may not be as unpopular south of the border as you may think, as it will not only result in Scots managing Scots, but also Scots no longer managing England and extending its culture and social economic influence disproportionately beyond its own borders. Scotland for the Scots I say!

41

The Fly Fifer,

fife 14/08/2007 14:48:20

what do you think will be the % required for independence?

51% of those who vote?

should it not be a compulsory vote?

42

puskas,

East Kilbride 14/08/2007 14:51:26

Well after watching Scotlands Parliement this afternoon our First Minister Mr Alex Salmond has them all on toast..

Wee Joke, anyone notice him and his backbenches.
Treatment for depression is on the way for everyone of them.
The Tories and the LibDems trod very carefully. A wee bit scared of Mr Salmond I thought.

Mr Salmond proved just how good a politician he is. Speaking from the heart and for the people of our land.

The predicament each unionist party have is each have different policies.
The SNP know that with each of them they can carry most through with a parliementary majority.

Alex's speach today put the onus on the other parties to abide by their election promises. In doing so the SNP will carry the majority on each occasion.

A win, win situation... Soon be time Scotland's people.

43

Miss H,

14/08/2007 14:56:56

One thing is for sure - the negative comments here are all coming from people who have not read the document.

It is a win win situation. Whatever the outcome the Scottish Parliament will take on more powers and Scots will take on more responsibility for governing themselves.

So it's a great day.

And yes Pehman we are the establishment now - I still haven't quite got used to that!!!

44

swbf,

Hamburg 14/08/2007 14:57:38

Hi guys,
Just visited several other posts BBC, Herald, Mail, Telegraph, Scottish parliament etc. Its amazing, only one third of scots want a referendum my bahooky! Id say its about 90 percent on all the blogs whether your for Independance or not the people want their say on this issue.

But will we get it?

45

Talorthane,

14/08/2007 14:57:43

#45 The Fife Flyer

It will be exactly the same as every other democratic poll, a simple majority.

Those who do not vote, are not counted.

It would be completely unfair and unjust to suddenly change the rules of democracy just to suit the interests of one side of the argument.

46

conanthelibrarian,

14/08/2007 14:58:01

Have the referendum ASAP. The result will be one that will support the Union. His royal smugness will then resign leaving Scotland to debate rationally about what extra powers are needed under a fully devolved Scots government within the Union.

47

The Second Coming,

Glasgow 14/08/2007 14:58:59

Whats the point of a national conversation if not 2 get the people of Scotland to rise! People of Scotland, listen to what our leader’s have 2 say then rise and make it happen! If the turncoats in the scottish parliament are against us, then lets show them that were going to make independence happen no matter what they say! Its time! Rise and be a nation again! Make a list of all traitors and post their pictures on the new scottish news! Its time!

48

Swede16,

14/08/2007 15:09:21

#51

"what extra powers are needed under a fully devolved Scots government"

isn't fully devolved the same thing as independent?

49

artemisclyde,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 15:10:53

Of course the Rt Hon. Mr Salmond should have published this paper.

It is what I voted for.

I am sure that if he hadn't, he'd be accused of "u-turn", "broken promises" and everything else.

It seems that this "two thirds" of the country who voted for a Unionist party are quite happy to be fooled by a party which does not do what it says it will do.

More fool them.

Right on, Right Hon Mr Salmond!

50

JG,

Fife 14/08/2007 15:10:58

#52 The Second Coming
And then what? Go and drag them from their houses and have them stoned to death in the public square? It's one way to ensure a majority, I suppose!

51

Saoghal Beag,

14/08/2007 15:13:03

#47 Yorkie, mostly talking sense but like many English you are under the delusion that westminster is an english parliment. As it stands it is a british parliment and until alternatives solutions are made then you will get scottish mps backing their english colleagues.

either you english create your own parliment or we scots leave you to it, or maybe both but somtheing has to give.

52

Saoghal Beag,

14/08/2007 15:15:20

#2 Joe, they ain't wrecking the country, we have labour doing that for years. they are putting the country back together and flushing out some of your labour cronnie parasites that have milked the system for what it is worth to themselves (east lothian for starters)

53

caithness boy,

wick 14/08/2007 15:20:20

I think mr salmond has hit the nail on the head FREEDOM

54

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 15:21:46

5. Bzzzz1314:

100% in favour.

---pitty Scotland's not 100% in favor. Indeed only a minority is, and onl one party which has formed a minority goverment.

55

puskas,

East Kilbride 14/08/2007 15:22:24

Des Browne MP Westminister

Nice of him?.

We created a Scottish Parliament - with powerful primary legislative powers on devolved matters "because we wanted to give the Scottish people greater democratic powers and accountability".
------------------------------------------------------

Thanks but no thanks. Its not enough and Scottish Independance is on its road.. So will you Des.

The political careers of the Scottish MP's down in London will be over, yes and they will be remembered by their constituants as quislings for a long, long time thereafter.

56

Yeti,

14/08/2007 15:31:01

Is there a copy of the white paper available online?

57

Mark1,

14/08/2007 15:31:23

Why are the Unionists so afraid of a wee discussion?

Even a wee referendum? If Scotland is so opposed to Independence then whats to be scared of?

........

oh, its going to cost to much is it?

........

It would be worth every penny and more.

And although it may be wrong, I can't get the image of the unionists on these boards as wee Orange order types with bowler hats and season ticket at Ibrox, how else could they have such distain for the country of Scotland?

58

elizabeth veldon,

angrytown 14/08/2007 15:31:39

I just love the way that 'unionists' are acused of every evil under the sun but it's the suporters of independence that are agressive and bullying on this page?

59

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 15:31:40

#60. How do you know Elizabeth? Perhaps we should have a referendum to find out exactly what level of support there is for independence.

60

Mark1,

14/08/2007 15:33:52

#63

forgot to add,

the unionists I imagione all tend to be frothing at the mouth and have squinty eyes.

61

elizabeth veldon,

having a pint at the Agnostic Hall 14/08/2007 15:34:05

63. Mark1:

so we're Orange Order obsesives (after all I'm taged, regardless of what i say, as a Unionist)?

Do you understand the word 'offensive?'

62

Senga Jean,

Scotland 14/08/2007 15:35:11

Alex Salmond is a wonderful politician and is all for Scotland being a better place. The personally insulting remarks like smug and man boobs are so indicative of people who are raging at the loss of their power base.The unionists I read here would rather see Scotland in poverty rather than their twisted unionism be defeated. What is wrong with them.? INDEPENDENCE PLEASE AND SOON

63

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 15:35:49

65. Merouane:

and we could have one to see how people feal about the flower pots outside the Kelvingrove Museum but it would still be a waste of money.

64

Mark1,

14/08/2007 15:36:19

it's what I imagine, I didn't suggest it was true.

You can see the point though can't you?

Scotland is hardly reknowned for its policy on Bigotry!

65

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 15:41:06

#69. You think asking the electorate to decide on out constitutional future is a waste of money!? This is one of the biggest questions in Scottish politics at the moment and disrupts all levels of governance. We have a party in government that is focussed on independence and those in opposition who are obsessed with the Union. This needs to be resolved one way or the other.

You and most of your fellow Unionists are trying to bury and misrepresent the debate in order to save the Union.

66

elizabeth veldon,

getting in another pint at the Agnostic Hall 14/08/2007 15:41:30

70. Mark1:


Yea but you're the one that evoced religious intolerance not me.

Why did you select the image of Orange Men in their Boller hats unless to tar Unionism with the brush of intolerence? Are you yourself intolerent of Prodistents?

67

The Second Coming,

glasgow 14/08/2007 15:43:01

#55 JG: I am a man of peace – I just want 2 ensure that the SNP get their message across when they have the natioinal conversation – I dont want 2 hear that people couldnt care less and that they dont know what the national conversation is. This issue is so important 4 scotland that I just want people 2 pay atention and 2 think about scotlands future. Once they do, I know that they will decide that its time! U just dont understand how important this is 2 me and how much it annoys me when I meet people that couldnt care less whether scotland is independant or not! I just feel that if people dont want 2 listen then they should be made 2 listen! Kindly show Alex and Nicola some respect and listen 2 the important things they have 2 tell u! Its time!

68

argonaut,

musselburgh 14/08/2007 15:47:27

that hing oot cathy jamieson just bin on tv giving it the same old rant, 2/3 of scots did not vote for snp....well 2/3 sure as hell did not vote for the labour wasters....mere minions of blair / brown.
Does any one truly believe that devolution was the end of it??? devolution simply opened the door slightly , alex and his cohorts now have to crack on and sell a possible future to us scots..a future without London a future without illegal wars and for the first time terrorist attacks on scottish soil, a future where scotland stands on its own 2 feet.
It can be done...in my opinion it will happen and should happen........
Independence for Scotland & England

69

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 15:47:49

71. Merouane:

and i think the flower pots outside the Kelvingrove are importent.

You want to spend our money on a referendum when Scots are droping in the streets from various diseeses? When Glasgow's the most violenbt place inthe UK and the second most violent in Europe? When Sink Estates in Glasgow and Edinburgh sink into a pit of poverty and disadvantage? Good to see you've got your priorities right...

70

elizabeth veldon,

tied to a post on George Square. 14/08/2007 15:50:14

52. The Second Coming:

yea lets have a tartan revolution!

(weither the people want it or not.)

71

Mark1,

14/08/2007 15:50:51

#72

Now now,

I am giving my own opinion. Unionism has a stigma in Scotland, rightly or wrongly.

As the poster above says, stick a Labour sticker on a shoe box in the west of Scotland and the hoardes will vote for it.

As yourself, why is this?

72

Florida Bob,

On the Beach 14/08/2007 15:55:08

OK - suppose we do get an independant Scotland, what positions will the Lab/Tory and Lib Dems take then? Try to force a return to the union or will they see for themselves how refreshing it would be to have the freedom to act in Scotland's interests

73

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 15:55:49

#75. You may well care about the flower pots outside the Kelvingrove. Have you tried writing to the Museum or your local councilor? I fail to see why you are obsessed with a referendum on this issue - their doesn't seem to be much in the way of conflict.

Wonderful argument for how Scotland has prospered within the Union in recent times.

As for your 'priorities'. Yes of course they are and should be top of the list. They have been top of the list for years, yet the problems haven't gone away. We perform worse than our comparative European neighbours in most of these areas. Why? It's not through lack of willing. We need to look at the very structure of how our government works. Independence is the first step in that.

74

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 15:57:34

77. Mark1:

for no other reason, I'd argue, than that Labor is the Traditional First Party in Scotland.

People actualy think it suports the workers!

Idiots!

75

Ham Shank,

edinburgh 14/08/2007 15:57:55

VOTE TORY!!

76

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 15:59:09

#76. You say "weither the people want it or not".

You are clearly trying to imply that the SNP wish to force independence on people. The are asking for a referendum! The means you and all the rest of us on the electoral register will be allowed to express our opinion. Only if there is a majority in favour will we see negotiations on independence begin.

As I said earlier, you and many Unionist are trying to either bury the debate, or to misrepresent it.

You do your cause no favours at all.

77

Senga Jean,

Scotland 14/08/2007 16:00:03

#80 but you are Not ignoring it?????!!!!!

78

elizabeth veldon,

looking at the flowers 14/08/2007 16:01:27

79. Merouane:

my proposed reforendum was ment to be ironic. I.e. I think that a referendum on Independence is as pointless as a reforendum on the Flower Pots outside the Kelvingrove.

Now as to your point that all Scotlasnd's ills are due to the Union: how does this differ from the Goverment of today blaiming the last goverment for all that's wrong in the world? Our health problems are tied up in our love of bevvie and unless we acept responsibility for our own actions as a country we will never be fit to run our own affairs.

79

elizabeth veldon,

looking at the flowers 14/08/2007 16:03:29

83. Merouane:

talking of misrepresenting...

I assume that when you quote my 'weither they want it or not' you refer to my responce the 'the second coming?' It should be plain to anyone who reads this that i was refering to their inflamatory retoric.

80

The Second Coming,

glasgow 14/08/2007 16:05:54

#76 elizabeth veldon: I just want 2 make sure that people know all about the case for independance and that they think about it carefuly. This is far 2 important an issue 2 be taken lightly – its so important that I even think that it should be taught in school’s and that they should replace eastenders with a programme all about the national conversation! If u want it to be time then youve got 2 make sure that people understand what this is all about – no-one is being forced – I just want 2 make sure that we dont lose our big chance 2 make it time because people dont understand how important all this is!

#80 the Antifascist: words just fail me 4 as usual when I read your shite! Its time!

81

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 16:06:06

#85. Yes, I realised that. I was trying to highlight the fact that flower pots at the Kelvingrove is a non-issue. Independence is not.

I didn't say that - please don't put words in my mouth. I said that we have not managed to solve these problems under the present system of government - whether it is Labour or the Tories in power in Westminster. Perhaps it's time to look at the alternatives. An independent government is one of those and it is worth debating the issue.

You say you want us to accept responsibility for our actions as a county. Well perhaps having an independent government that doesn't depend on grants from the 'mother parliament' is part of that.

82

Burns,

14/08/2007 16:06:50

#80 The Antifascist
Of course this national conversation should be treated with contempt. I mean why discuss Scotland's future, I mean its not that important is it. Why bother with democracy, we survived with Labour for 50 odd years. Choice its so over-rated, much better to live in a dictatorship isn't it????

83

Mark1,

14/08/2007 16:12:00

Do you think this will get a mention on the 6 o'clock news tonight?

I doubt it.

But the unionists like it that way, that way they think it is being brushed under the carpet.

84

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 16:12:23

#86. Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you were referring to the very idea of the SNP encouraging debate on the issue.

The Second Coming seems to be a we bit excitable, but asking people to take an interest in the debate is hardly inflammatory is it? Before the last election, all the parties got together and say that even if you don't vote for their party, you should get involved, read the literature and make sure you vote. Was that inflammatory?

85

jamurai,

14/08/2007 16:14:25

its going to cost too much its going to cost too much iits going to cost too much its going to cost too much its going to cost too much its going to cost to much .......................this is a JOKE. In Scottish politics this is THEE issue and it needs to be resolved. TIME is money. How much time and effort is going to be wasted debating this issue if we continue to put off a referendum and settle the matter? And how can we effectively and efficiently run our country until we reach a consensus on a constitutional model to go with? There WILL NEVER be a consensus and so a referendum is the only solution. The cost of NOT doing this is what we should be afraid of.
The cost will be too high. A ridiculous argument. Made by people whilst shaking the fear out of their wellies.

86

elizabeth veldon,

at the re-education camp 14/08/2007 16:16:24

87. The Second Coming:

what you want is re-education - forcing people into a position on Independence weither they care or not. Perhaps, just perhaps, they don't care? You can't make them you know.

88. Merouane:

No I was trying to make the point that Flower Pots outside the Kelvingrove is a non-issue but that there is no diffrence between forcing the issue with an expensive referendum on this and doing the same over Independence.

As regards to being Grown-Ups and facing our own falts: you say we'd do so in an Independent Scotland? Well you seem incapable of it now, putting off the nastly self examination, the long dark high tea of the soul, untill some distent point, to the inoruration of a Eutopian future. Sorry but we need to adress these issues before we can move forward.

87

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 16:18:46

92. jamurai:

no the issue is THE issue if you're an Indi. What do the opinion polls say on this?

The Tartan Zombies acuse everyone else of disregarding democrisy but waht to use the democratic process to push thir own agenda regardless of the wish of the people.

88

Burns,

14/08/2007 16:22:10

#92

Here Here!!

I am still amazed that the unionist parties keep trying to bury this. I guess they don't realise that a massive amount of people in this country want change, and the issue won't go away even if they throw their toys out the pram and say they won't join in the debate.

I can guess that the feeling of oppression is only going to get worse if Labour appoint Wendy Alexander as their new leader. As a complete Brownite she is never going to disagree with anything Brown says whether its for the good of the Scottish people or not!

89

Burns,

14/08/2007 16:23:13

#95 a referendum can only push an agenda as far as the people allow it. What are you so scared of??

90

Dr Malcolm H Sutcliffe PhD Physics,

14/08/2007 16:23:35

They key issue is what kind of independent Scotland will emerge? Will it be a positive development for the people of Scotland? Life isn't just about becoming richer or more prosperous it is also about moral advance. When and if Scotland becomes independent, forces the removal of so called wmd ie trident from Scottish waters, that would be a huge moral advance,which could have a knock on effect all around the world,but also would clearly benefit the people of Scotland because for a start, you would be able to swim safely in Gare Loch. I was up there some years ago and I noticed a genetically deformed crab walking along the beach near Hellensburgh. Some of the marine life seemed odd, but what was also odd was that in the middle of summer few were on the beach and nobody was swimming. It was a hot day!. I visit Blackpool quite often, yes the water quality is poor and the joke is going for a swim on Blackpool beach is getting your own back,but people will swim in that water. I would guess that if nothing radioactive is dumped in Gare Loch before the tridents leave to return to Barrow,for dismantling, that Scots will be able to take a swim in Scottish waters (safely). Good Luck to the SNP. With a bit of luck Alex Salmond may prove to be the most successful Scotsman in his chosen field since James C Maxwell invented electromagnetic field theory.And yes ,we know Sean Connery has been successful as an actor but James C Maxwell advanced physics a slightly different thing!. I would also repeat the question others have posed,if the anti-independence forces are so democratic (as they tell the Iraqis amongst others) why are they frightened of a vote?
Stay on top,you are winning!

91

elizabeth veldon,

at the table in a cafe offering cake 14/08/2007 16:23:39

91. Merouane:

We can all get a bit her up at times :)

It was his rather violent language i objected to.

92

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 16:25:04

#93. There is a difference. One is a very contentious issue that dominates the political landscape, the other is not.

No, it is _after_ the nasty self-examination we realise that the present situation is not conducive to solving these problems. We need the structure in place to do that. Of course independence won't solve much in itself, but it could give us the impetus and organisation at the top level of government to do so.

93

Alan999,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 16:25:26

Mr Salmond wants "all Scots" to come together to debate this proposal.

I'm not a Scot but live & work in Edinburgh. So does that mean I won't have any say in the process as I'm not a "Scot".

By "all Scots" does he mean Scots born like Tony Blair who hides his Scottish heritage or Sean Connery, a Scot who loves Scotland so much that he can't bear to live in it?

Perhaps we should have a further option on the ballot - the abolition of the "Scots" Government

94

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 16:27:38

97. Burns:

I'm not afraid, are you?

95

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 14/08/2007 16:28:07

"Scottish Secretary Des Browne said independence did not have the support of the Scottish people"

If Des Browne actually believes this, then he ought to welcome a referendum in order to shut the SNP up.

The fact that he and others oppose a referendum demonstrates that in actual fact he fears that the majority of people feel otherwise. In which case Labour and others are guilty of deliberately stifling democracy.

Indeed the whole anti referendum position, particularly from the Lib Dems (not particularly liberal or democratic) and Labour, is deliberately treating people of all points of view (unionist and nationalist and any other flavour) in Scotland with utter contempt.

In denying a referendum they are affirming that they consider the Scottish people to be too stupid to understand and make their own decisions.

Perhaps Des Browne needs to be asked again and again why he considers people in Scotland to be too stupid to make any adult reasoned decision.

The point above has nothing to do with Nationalist vs Unionist. It has to do whether we believe in democracy, and whether we tolerate arrogant politicians who consider the electorate too stupid to be handed any responsibility for making their own decisions.

96

Scotsman in Dublin,

14/08/2007 16:29:02

#101, Alan999 yes you will have a say, because you are a resident of the country - Unfortunately even bitter people like yourself get a vote.

97

Scotsman in Dublin,

14/08/2007 16:31:53

#103 Cauchy, a good point well made.

98

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 16:33:23

100. Merouane:

as I said to another poster - it's a fundamental issue if you're a Indi. If you'r not you're worried about your local comunity centre, the local school...

Mete-politics (nationalism v. Unionism for instance) mean nothing to people on the streets in comparison to the stuff that directly effects them but as you and other Indi's and Unionists have locked yourself in constitutional debate you've lost sight of this.

As Neicher (sp!) said 'real philosiphy happens on the street.'

99

Scotsman in Dublin,

14/08/2007 16:35:32

106, elizabeth, if Nationalism doesnt matter to people on the streets how on earth did they manage to win the election.

100

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 16:35:35

104. Scotsman in Dublin:

'unfortunatly'?

you REALY care for Democrisy don't you?

101

Ken S.,

England 14/08/2007 16:35:54

#62. Yeti / 4:31pm 14 Aug 2007
"Is there a copy of the white paper available online?"

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/08/13103747/0

102

jamurai,

14/08/2007 16:38:56

no95. I'm afraid I find your response rather shocking. Let us not forget that the only party which supports independence is the INCUMBENT GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND!!!!!Who gained power largely on this single issue. (So what if they form a minority government, the point is they certainly have earned THE DEMOCRATIC RIGHT TO BRING THIS DEBATE ON). THerefore if you choose to claim that it is only THEE issue for "indi's" you are, I' am afraid quite out of the loop! I am surprised you can type with your head so firmly in the sand. If a referendum is not up there at the top for you "uni's" what is? Jjust the prospect of this referendum has provoked a whirlwind of negative fearty rhetoric from the "uni's". And don't dare question the demoratic credentials of the "Tartan zombies" who at least are encouraging a national debate on the options. If you don't like this kind of democracy, get out quick. Perhaps back to England where your heart lies.....

103

elizabeth veldon,

on the streets 14/08/2007 16:39:20

107. Scotsman in Dublin:

because of a protest vote perhaps?

In our present system, do not forget, the didn't actualy win as, under PR you can't 'win' you can only be the largest party.

Now when you are the largest party you enter into a colition and, as part of that colition, negotiate terms. Now, as far as i know, the terms the SNP accepted included not bringing up this issue therefore they've broken the colition and therefore show a shocking disregard for Democrisy and the political precess - they are, in shore, bullies.

104

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 14/08/2007 16:41:37

Elizabeth Veldon - one problem with your analysis in #106 above is that you seem to forget (or ignore?) that constitutional debate can lead to constitutional change and from there to policy differences to better reflect the needs of different bits of the UK, as with free personal care, an end to student fees etc. Constitutional debate is not therefore an irrelevance and I suspect, to use your slightly patronizing phrase, most "people on the street" realize that.

105

Merouane,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 16:43:17

#106. I think you do most in the pro-independence camp a disservice here. Just because someone is interested in independence does not mean that they are not worries about their local community centre etc. Most independence activists that I know are very active in local/community politics as well.

Most people are not interested in national politics across the board. They should be. Just as they should be interested in the independence debate. It affects us all, even down to the local community centre.

The vast majority of pro-independence people are in favour of independence because they genuinely belive that it will make a positive difference. Now, you might say the same about Unionists, and you might be right. That just makes the debate more worthwhile. There is nothing to be scared of.

Anyway, thanks for the chat, I'm away home now though...

106

jamurai,

14/08/2007 16:44:18

PS If the local community centre etc... is really the main issue to the typical man on the street, why is the SLCCP (Scottish Local Community Centres Party) not in power in Holyrood issuing their own white paper on some "relevant" issue?

107

elizabeth veldon,

on the streets 14/08/2007 16:44:18

110. jamurai:

my point, which you choose to ignore, is that the Indies are pusing the issue rather than discusing Scotland's health, wealth and well being. Ofcorse if everyone's so malnorished and/ or p*ssed that they cant' concintrate on the debate all the better for the sort of neo-fashist hate mongerors who seem to populate these boards - get the hungry and desperate populis stirred up and watch them riot...

BTW: I was born and breed in Lanarkshire. I love Scotland and Scotish culture but I see it going to the dogs.

108

jamurai,

14/08/2007 16:46:15

PPS Democrisy??? Are you serious???

109

The Second Coming,

glasgow 14/08/2007 16:46:39

#93 elizabeth veldon: how is it re-education 2 enable people to make a choice for scotland that could affect the future of millions? I just want 2 ensure that people understand the issues. Of course, I like many others know in my heart that once they understand the issues then they will want independance. Its just that I dont want 2 find out years after a referendum that people regret not voting 4 it because they did not understand at the time and they wish they had had more education about the issues, like me! If people arent interested in the question of independance then Im sorry but they should be made 2 be interested – its that important and its 4 their own good and we all know that they will come to thank us 4 making them interested once they see how good independence is, even if they have 2 be forced to be interested at the time! Its time!

110

elizabeth veldon,

doing volentry work 14/08/2007 16:50:18

113. Mike Partick and 114. Merouane:

no my use of 'the streets' is a reference to Grass Roots politics not the meta-politics the independence/ nationalism debate engages in.

If you view this as the Dominant Discorse then anything you do for your local comunuty is to push your position weither pro or anti or, to put it another way, the relief of poverty is a tool for meta-politics rather than an end in and of itself.

'Most people are not interested in national politics across the board. They should be.'

---so we should be forced to engage in your meta-politics weither we want to or not? You and your lot going to herd us into camps to do just this?

111

Harryc,

14/08/2007 16:51:22

Mark1, you are an ignorant pig who sums up everything wrong with Scotland. I and many other unionists are not season ticket holders at Ibrox, nor do we support Rangers, I personally never have under any circumstance and never ever will, I hate the club with a passion. I am a Hibernian supporter through thick and thin, and I support the Union through thick and thin. Please do not tell me that a condition of my support of Hibernian FC is to be an aggressive, arrogant, bullying, racist McGlashan like you and everyone else on Scotsman.com, face the facts, independence will NOT happen this term, or in the near future.

112

elizabeth veldon,

doing volentry work 14/08/2007 16:52:51

118. The Second Coming:

you can not 'make' people interested in the nationalist/ unionism 'debate!'

You, and the other on this page that insist that this is more importent than grass roots issues and people should abandon thses in the intrests of The State come across as Fashists.

113

elizabeth veldon,

on the terices with a pie 14/08/2007 16:54:05

120. Harryc:

a Hibs suporter? You might not be a bigot but you ARE an idiot :D

114

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 14/08/2007 16:57:18

Elizabeth - well I suppose we could put you in a camp if you really want to go. I don't actually think it is an either/or situation on matters like this. I think we are all capable of thinking an discussing more than one thing in a day.

115

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 16:59:06

123. Mike Partick:

you say it's not 'either' or' and i agree but do you see much discussion of the Grey Arias here?

116

Suck-McCrunchie,

Doomster Hill 14/08/2007 17:00:03

The only problem I could see with an independent Scotland would be Salmond's shower unchecked at the helm. There is something quite fishy in even the names of Salmond and Sturgeon!

Fair enough, they are leading our over priced and under powered toy parliament after the previous incompetent incumbents messed up the format of the election papers so much, a large percentage managed to become disenfranchised in the polling booth. Or (like me), you are still awaiting your postal voting paper.

But then you think of the other options. The party that brought us the poll tax and the other party famous for, well... What are the Liberals famous for, excluding producing a good turnout in protest mid term?

So what does that leave?

Sheridan is no longer even in that expensive big building in Edinburgh (or any other big house he resided in there), although he is one of the few politicians who won a court case showing he never did in a hotel room what most other politicians seem to do to us constantly. Whilst still in Edinburgh, he is currently now only appearing in panto or something?!?! So nothing much changed there.

While a party offering a solution now seems entirely elusive, the only solution seems to be 'Political Asylum'.

But with the prohibitive cost of the original building, I hate to think the expense involved to put that new sign up!

117

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 14/08/2007 17:02:11

Elizabeth #124 - do you not think that that is maybe because these comments all relate to an article on the release of the white paper?

118

Scotsman in Dublin,

14/08/2007 17:02:55

#112, Elizabeth, you are clearly an idiot and I am not sure why I am bothering but I can see you sitting there in middle England years after independence still claiming a protest voter.
#108, I do care for democracy which is why i think even numptys like you and Alan999 should get a vote.

119

elizabeth veldon,

14/08/2007 17:04:58

126. Mike Partick:

or because we're dealing with a Dominant Discorse, a dialectic?

Remember always that when you see a dialectic opposition what you infact see is a 'technology of power' - a way of exorsising power over others.

120

elizabeth veldon,

in scotland not middle england 14/08/2007 17:08:58

127. Scotsman in Dublin:

how you dispise people not living in Scotland and munching Tartan if your puting your tag as 'in Dublin!'

How you dispise the English!

how i fear for a country full of idiots like you.

Let me explain:

Under PR no one party gets to push it's own personal agenda. that is the form that a goverment elected under PR but the SNP has disregarded this and has therefore disregarded 'the will of the people' (as we like to call it with toungues forml yin cheeks.)

121

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 14/08/2007 17:10:14

Elizabeth - if you have a look at the rest of the Scotsman's articles you'll find a plenty of comments that have nothing to do with independence and plenty to do with other issues of the day. This particular comments line that we're both posting on at the moment is inevitably going to boil down to a "for or against" debate between unionists and independents.

122

Mikey,

14/08/2007 17:12:41

I'm still amazed why people who obviously hate Scotland and her people, still desire to live here!

123

elizabeth veldon,

in scotland not middle england 14/08/2007 17:13:20

130. Mike Partick:

only because this issue has become a Discorse - we can debate othe roptions but we don't.

124

elizabeth veldon,

in scotland not middle england 14/08/2007 17:15:04

131. Mikey:

and I'm amazed that people who so hate the Scotish People can claim to love Scotland.

Perhaps it would be a scotland clensed of people or, a tthe least, disenters.

125

Mike Partick,

Glasgow 14/08/2007 17:18:33

Elizabeth - I'm not quite sure what your point is - how do you think the discussion should be going?

126

elizabeth veldon,

in scotland not middle england 14/08/2007 17:20:17

134. Mike Partick:

perhaps I'll discuss it tomorow as i've got to go now...

127

heidbanger,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 17:21:27

I quite understand why the three "established" political parties oppose the SNP's proposals on two fronts.
1)Alex Salmond stated if he was elected he would bring in these propsals within 100 days, which is what he has done.

The established parties have to riicule the idea of keeping election promises before the electorate come to expect that of them.

2)The propsal to give the people of Scotland the chance to voice an oponion on a single subject goes completely against the established political practices where the electorate are ignored for long periods of time. This very action totally undermines the role of a politician so must be resisted.

Love him or louath him, agree with him or not, but I commend his style of democracy

128

Hugo, Ayrshire,

14/08/2007 17:32:10

#7
"I've said it before on this forum, but I'll say it again. I'll accept a wide range of options from Scottish independence through to a truly federal UK. I don't really mind as long as I'm asked for my opinion and Scotland governs herself well."

This is a bit of unexpected commonsense. I sometimes think too many posters are more concerned with being vindictive and vituperative than they are with what is trying to be achieved.

129

Scotsman in Dublin,

14/08/2007 17:42:22

129. elizabeth, "munching Tartan" what are you talking about? You are typical of many of the morons who post on here, because I dont agree with you I all of a sudden "despise the English" - you couldnt be further from the truth. My reasons for being in Dublin are nothing to do with you but I wouldnt be involved in this discussion if I wasnt committed to Scotland and planning to come back.

130

argonaut,

musselburgh 14/08/2007 17:47:17

yeh your right 101 that does not include you.....go back to sleep

131

Silence of the Yamz,

14/08/2007 17:59:42

Good on Salmond! The Irish republic is the second richest country in Europe per capita, and that's without oil! Of course, it has no dosser weegies either so that balances out!

132

T. MacIntosh,

Toronto 14/08/2007 18:01:11

#2 take the next train out.Clearly an English whiner,same as some others here,but they got kicked in their arse as well.
The white paper is perfectly feasible and unless these opposition politicians want to become extinct next election they'll do the referendum when it's ready to be done.It happened here to a pile of tories early 1990's after a few citizens got mad at them;it seems they were mixed up in several criminal acts they use the cops to carry out.Then somebody called in the FBI and these crooked cops all got stomped:).That was 1996.It can really happen that entire political parties disappear at the will of the voters.

133

Craig Russell,

14/08/2007 18:02:24

I think most of the comments on this site come from paid party hacks, be they either labour of snp, none of them reflect the real concerns of ordinary working class Scots, i personally dont know anyone who even thinks twice about independence or not, its just not that important to them.
During the election voters were asked what issues concrned them most, independence came 16th. Many of the SNP commentators here seem to think that the whole country isseething with revolutionary zeal , my life wont change, we will still be paying taxes to fat lying politicians like Gordon or salmond

134

Miss Jean Brodie,

14/08/2007 18:04:17

Aaah . . . India and Pakistan enjoy 60 years of independence this year eh ? Oooooh, and amazingly many of them still have families in Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales - all of who can freely travel around - visit, each other and their old ‘Empire’ associates to boot ! The Indian and Pakistan economies’ even seem to still be there, and that’s without the Empire and London control . . . Amazin!

Now let’s see . . . aaah . . . there’s a problem - for some reason, London are not prepared to give Scotland the right to choose whether it wants independence . . .

Let’s celebrate India’s celebration on one hand and condem Scotlands right to choose on the other - obvious ehh?!

135

Craig Russell,

14/08/2007 18:06:59

144. I get the impression that you seem to think that the Scottish people are dying to have a referendum and if they dont get it, then they will wipe out the other political parties.You seem to forget that most people voted for unionist parties and most people want to remain part of the union, why would they all of a sudden become angry if they blocked a referendum vote, it people wanted a referendum they coukldd have voted for the SNP, who only got 3 out of ten votes and have a pathetic 1 seat more than labour, hardley the voice of the nation

136

Craig Russell,

14/08/2007 18:22:38

146. The right to choose was given at the election, if people really wanted a referedum so badly they would have returned an SNP government with an overall majority. People are not stupid, the majority of our countrymen and women voted against the SNP.
Why should the other parties help the SNP agenda, the are the opposition, its their position to oppose, they dont believe in full independence, they can and are frustrating the SNP at every turn.
The abolition of bridge tolls is about the only thing they have done, and this was to pander to motorists, which although popular, hardley helped the enviroment, i cant see the SNP getting an overall majority ever, they have only got to slip up once and thats it for them, look how Labour have bounced back, who would have thought a few months ago that they would ever win another election, now it seems they will will an extraa 100 seats.
Also regarding the tatest poll giving the SNP 48%, this is by Scottish opinion who gave the SNP a massive lead and predicted a massive green vote and the melting away of the libs and tories, they were so wrong, according to them, the tories have switched in droves to the snp, can anyone really believe this,they are the most ardent unionists

137

Miss Jean Brodie,

14/08/2007 18:40:37

#148 the majority of our countrymen and women voted against the SNP - ehh what country is that Craig ?

138

Craig Russell,

14/08/2007 18:47:52

148, Scotland, do you know were that is on the map.Are you trying to suggest that the majority of Scots voted SNP, forgive me if my calculations are wrong or if we count differently in Aberdeen, but didnt the snp get 3 out of ten votes, i think thats the minority if im not mistaken, if the snp had a majority of the votes salmond wouldnt be frantically trying to get a referendum, we would have had one already

139

shooter,

true scot 14/08/2007 18:56:20

Give Scotland full independence about time to

140

JG,

Fife 14/08/2007 19:02:27

#73 The Second Coming
I am under no obligation to "respect" Salmond or Sturgeon - he (like most politicians) is self-seeking and smug and she is a lawyer.

141

Miss Jean Brodie,

14/08/2007 19:02:53

#148 If only a small minority of a country that as the way our democracy works are actually the majority of seats in our parliament want to raise and put an issue to a vote - the vote should take place - your point regarding the opposition choosing ‘to oppose, they dont believe in full independence, they can and are frustrating the SNP at every turn’ smacks of doubt and a lack of confidence in their beliefs - if they are truely positive - a simple question to every born Scottish - man, woman and child - do you want independence will suffice.

For think of this - two adjoining homes on a street. One home has 24 people in it the other 2 - the home with 24 people decides to take use of the home with 2 and because they collectively have more bodies they have more wealth and move into the home without permission - after a long period of time and regular squables the home with 2 decides to make life easy and just try and get along for sake of the peace. They assist each other a little bit, but all the while the house of 2 wonders why it is paying it’s rent to allow the house of 24 to come and go as it pleases and make all the decisions - 1 of the 2 asks if they can decide whether they want their decisions made for them - representatives of the house of 24 say that would not be a good thing.

If you think that scenario is ok - where’s yer hoose I’ve a lot of friends to bring roond!

142

Craig Russell,

14/08/2007 19:04:21

What a lot of people seem to forget is that we have a PR parlaiment, not first past the post , like westminster, it is possible, like the snp to get one more seat the anyone else but they are representing a minority view, like i said the majority of Scots dont rate the issue of independence as that important, 16th in the league of issues in fact.
Party members , be they of any party, which the majority of the comments on this site come from, seem to think that the majority of the population reflect their concerns, the majority of Scots are turned off by politics of any persuasion, they distrust politicians, because many of the snp party members are frothing at the mouth about independence, it doesnt mean we all are

143

Miss Jean Brodie,

14/08/2007 19:13:43

Craig - so let everyone have a vote on it - no big deal then eh ?

144

Craig Russell,

14/08/2007 19:19:16

153, i can see your point your making, but you could say the same about different regions within scotland, why shouldnt we break up scotland into semi autonomous regions so that people in glasgow cant dictate to people in shetland, where do you stop, you could say the same about different regions in England, why should the rich southeast dominate Cornwall. The decisions that affect our lives are made in Brussels, Washington, big buisness and banking institutions, jobs are lost because in south east asia, they pay workers £10 a day, how can we compete with that, we should be more worried about these bodies than about London, they have far more of an impact on our lives
By the way, i dont mind you coming around my house, just as long as you bring thre drinks

145

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 14/08/2007 19:20:03

I'm a believer in the Union, a firm believer that Scotland could also prosper outside it and also a democrat. I don't see what the pro-Union parties have to fear from having a referndum on the issue. I believe that the Nationalists would get bit of a shock. But how long would they shut the feck up about it? 5 years? 10? Could Mr. Salmond give us a promise on that and give us peace.

146

Craig Russell,

14/08/2007 19:27:28

Im not against a vote, there would be a no vote for independence anyway, we all know that, we should also have a referendum on leaving the EU, bringing back the death penalty, stopping immigration,geting out of Iraq, all of these issus are considered more important than independence by Scots, why doesnt Salmond push for referendums on these too, the fact is, they are a one issue party, without that they would cease to exist, it seems logical to me that the opposition should fustrate his plans in their own interests, by pushing for a referendum he is trying to keep his oarty alive and on a momentum, without that, they will grind to a halt

147

Miss Jean Brodie,

14/08/2007 19:27:56

#156 Craig - your point comes closer to my ideals than you could imagine - the removal of a state structure would indeed be the best solution - for I fear we need no regulating state - the very growth of the internet - the first truely global community - without a legislative heirarchy - proves that the political ‘state’ modes are truely not necissary and that soceity works better as anarchic individualism - but the right to a vote on Scotlands Independence would be a good start in a much longer journey !

148

Craig Russell,

14/08/2007 19:47:05

159, i agree with many of much of what you say but independence for scotland doesnt make any difference. In my opinion the snp are no different from the parties in westminster, they are all under the control of big buisness, banks etc, we no longer have any control over any aspects of our lives.
If anything the snp are even worse tha Labour, they recieve backing from rich individuals, financial institutions, they want to be part of european super state. All these bodies and institutions work against the very ideals you seem to hold, breaking a country up just helps them, look how the EU trys to break all its members down into regions, all its member states are drifting in this direction, these are bloated corrupt organisations, of which the snp is a willing partipant, i think independence just accelerates this process. Anyway, i think im blabbing now, it was good to read some ones views that are not those of rigid party members churning out the party line, bye

149

Scotsgait,

easily located in cyperspace 14/08/2007 20:13:58

Already, the cracks are appearing between the members of that happy band supporting the status quo ! Nicol Stephen has actually welcomed the white paper albeit with the qualifier that it is "the first sign that the Nationalists were prepared to settle for something other than taking Scotland out of the United Kingdom." He's wrong, of course - the Nats are not prepared to do that - but he will probably join in the conversation nevertheless.

The election of an SNP government suggests change is wanted; it might not be as big a change as independence but change is what the electorate has asked for. During the course of the conversation, and beyond, if necessary, the SNP can continue to campaign for independence just as others will campaign for the union. However, unlike Jack and Annabel, the nationalists ARE willing to compromise and listen to what the people want at this time.

That's democracy, something that the old time parties might want to think about.


______________
visit Scotsgait and join The Gaithering

150

Martin Gallagher,

South Queensferry 14/08/2007 20:25:56

The idea of independence is based on a romanticised view of Scottish history stemming from an anti-English sentiment relating to events which occurred over three hundred years ago: William Wallace, Robert the Bruce, the Battle of Bannockburn, the English invasions into the Kingdom of Scotland etc. It has no relevance in the 21st century. Ask anyone in favour of independence why they actually want it, and 99% of the time they don’t know! It’s just a load of patriotic nonsense. The Union makes us stronger!

151

Harryc,

14/08/2007 20:48:17

Exactly Martin, you hit the nail on the head. Another thing is, if the Union is really the dreadfully terrible awful thing that we get told by these numpties here, then surely our friends in Wales would be out voting for Plaid Cymru in their droves as well. As it is, Labour and the Welsh Nats have managed to get on with each other, whereas here you have these pathetic excuses for human beings basing their reasons for independence around some little Hollywood fairy story of passionate freedom fighting and war. Give them the chance these people would make us all wear Tammy Shanter hats and tartan kilts every day of the year.

152

reach4thelasers,

Ayrshire 14/08/2007 20:57:23

The term "Independent State" is a fictitious, meaningless entity that Alex Salmond has made up to make independence sound more appealing.

If Scotland became independent, it would be a "Republic". I for one would emigrate before I live in "The Republic of Scotland", Salmond can disguise it with his made-up terms, but that's ultimately what Scotland would become.

153

JG,

Fife 14/08/2007 20:57:35

#163 Harryc
You forgot about the whisky and shortbread while listening to bagpipes or Jimmy Shand records in the background!

154

Vastly Amused,

Land of the Free 14/08/2007 21:11:43

I'm tickled pink by the debate and only sorry that neither Wendy or Cathy, as heir apparent, has yet weighed in with their views on the White Paper. I think it'd be very, very, very, very, very interesting to hear from either. Indeed I think their sullen, disgruntled, inarticulate support need a little boost. It'd be very very very very thoughtful if either did so :-()

155

Keander,

14/08/2007 21:35:28

Can anyone else confirm I heard this as I was only half listening to the BBC

Apparently, according to the BBC 10 o'clock news, Scotland has a vote 10 years ago on full independence and chose to stay with the Union. Did I miss something, was I asleep, I can't remember that.

More power to the Scottish 6 and 10 for that matter.

156

Keander,

14/08/2007 21:39:36

to Number 162 Martin

Without William Wallace, Robert the Bruce, the Battle of Bannockburn, the English invasions into the Kingdom of Scotland etc. there would be no Great Britain, No United Kingdom, no Act of Union as Scotland would have been swallowed up by it's southern neighbour.

So can you tell me why it has no relevance in the 21st century? Without Scottish independence in the 14th century we would in all probability not be here talking about this.

157

PhredBear,

Linlithgow 14/08/2007 21:47:40

Oddly enough, there have been a couple of polls recently where there is a higher level of support for Scotish independance in England than there is in Scotland.

158

SunShine,

14/08/2007 21:48:59

The union makes us stronger.

159

D.L.Edgcumbe,

Toronto 14/08/2007 21:51:15

the question is biased as only the Scotsman is capable of , what makes you think that Scots wil nmot opt for total; independence?

160

rothay,

England 14/08/2007 22:00:47

174 Of course there is increasing support in England for an independent Scotland. We see this as the only way that England will be freed. At last there is a move amongst Conservatives to go for a Scottish independence referendum. There is no way that Gordon Brown will allow an English referendum on independence while he is in power. At the last election on votes cast England voted Conservative. Gordon Brown won't even address the West Lothian question until England forces him to.

161

Keander,

14/08/2007 22:00:53

no. 171 at Zoom

Thanks mate. So much for the superior London based news.

162

Robert E,

14/08/2007 22:22:34

#162 Martin Gallagher

"Ask anyone in favour of independence why they actually want it, and 99% of the time they don’t know! It’s just a load of patriotic nonsense."

When I read these postings I'm reminded that we all live in different time zones, for example AM2 is living in the 50s, The Antifascist in the early 70s. Unionists seem blissfully unaware of the resurgence of the Scottish spirit that's taken place in the last 35 years or so. Have they never heard one of Carver's Masses, or a Gaelic psalm? Probably not, they're too busy soaking up yet more of the the Anglo-American crassness that passes for culture. So there's a reason for wanting independence - I'd like to help create a country other than one whose highest ideal is to become a consumer.

163

IainGlasgow,

14/08/2007 22:35:27

#180

Most people I know who are in favour of union with England and Wales if asked why they would probably reply that Scotland isn't capable of running its own affairs or it would cost too much to set up. Either that or they're older people who have a nostalgia for the blitz years.

I even saw someone on the news today saying we'd be better off being part of England! And he was wearing a Scotland football top as well!

164

IainGlasgow,

14/08/2007 22:40:06

#167

It's taken a long awaited SNP government for me to realise the extent to which the media distort and b********* the truth. I'm now beginning to wonder about the integrity of virtually everything I read in the papers or hear on the news.

165

Senga Jean,

14/08/2007 22:54:46

#181 It was worse than that .The clown said we would be better staying as part of England. The Scottish Unionist education system has a lot to answer for. At assembly we used to have to sing about England's green and pleasant land. That was in Glasgow..A Senior Secondary!

166

John S,

14/08/2007 23:00:51

How can being part of the Union make Scotland stronger when on the world stage an independent Scotland would have :-

12-14 members of the European Parliament.
Member of the Council of the European Union.
Attend the European Council (referred to as a European Summit).
Member of the Council of Europe.
The President of the Council of the European Union on a rotating basis.
Member of the WTO.
Attend Commonwealth heads of State conference.
Member of the Olympic movement.
Member of FIFA with no threat of one fooball team representing the UK.
A seat at the UN. etc etc

167

Fat Freddys Cat,

14/08/2007 23:25:15

Here are the FACTS -
==============

1 - The unionists (particularly AM2) would have had us believe the world would end should the SNP win the May election.

2 - The unionists (particularly AM2) provided post after post of seemingly thoughtful and rational reasoning and statistics to support their view.

3 - The SNP won the election

4 - The world did not end and even this Labour rag acknowledges today what a great job the SNP have done in difficult circumstances

5 - Independence is now floated for discussion

6 - Goto point 1 for the same drivel, lies, obfuscation and dross by the same unionists but this time the hobby horse is independence rather than the election

=================================

168

langtonian,

scotus 15/08/2007 00:48:34

Referendum = the principle or practice of submitting a question directly to to the vote of the entire electorate.

Vote =an expression of a wish or opinion an authorized formal way; collective opinion,deciision by a majority;a group or votes or voters collectively;a voter;the right to vote;a means by which choice is expressed,such as a ballot;a ballot paper; the total number of votes cast;an earnest desire to express choice, especially at at an election.

Referendums are anachronism's, are rats in the pack,and breed in a similar fashion in that one referendum leads to two x2x2x2--------leading on to a Malthusian nightmare whereby they could eventually erode, indeed smother democracy,including diminishing an individual's right and properl representation in a parliamentary forum.


When there is a full blown election, one indicates by franchise/vote the manifesto of the party of choice,one can not cherry pick the most appealing parts from each and every manifesto, a hard choice has to be made.Once that deciision is declared, the majority view is sacrosanct,the elected party has then to make their stated manifesto come to fruition, failing to do so will result in defeat at subsequent elections.

169

High Flyer,

Glasgow 15/08/2007 01:29:06

To JG of Fife,
You state you don't need Alex Salmond to "think for you" and you accuse him of being "smug and self-obsessed".
As far as I read your posts, it seems you are as smug and self obsessed as to think that a professional politician leading a country of 5 million people actually has YOU and NO-ONE ELSE in mind whenever he speaks!

170

High Flyer,

Glasgow 15/08/2007 01:50:08

And to Alan999,
What a bitter, bitter Alan you are. Are you trying to tell us that Sean Connery should live in Scotland to have an opinion on Scotland? What kind of attitude is that? The guy can do and say what he likes. I'm sure YOU have opinions on every other country in the world...and to get to your point, when Alex Salmond says Scots, he is addressing all born in Scotland and all current inhabitants of Scotland, who may or may not regard themselves as Scottish. It seems you are feeling locked out. You seem to want to dress the nationalist movement in some kind of racist garb, and I for one will have none of it. What other countries would you criticise in the same way? When an American president addresses his 'Fellow Americans' he addresses everyone legally present in the country. What better phrase than 'Scots' would you use to address the inhabitants of the country?

171

High Flyer,

Glasgow 15/08/2007 02:04:34

..and Regarding the Fascinating Elizabeth Veldon...

I am interested in the Meta-Politics you are perhaps talking about but perhaps meta-talking about. Please can we arrange a meta-meeting to discuss these metas. So that other people have more room to talk sense.

172

Graeme Gibson,

Sydney Australia 15/08/2007 02:25:53

It could make Scotland a poorer country with an increase in social problems. It could mean that the financial/wealth system south of the border simply dumps Scotland leaving her to much poverty. Many in Australia want to break away from England and all she had meant to us and that would make us a poorer country spiritually and financially. Much thought and prayer really needs to go into this. Imagine a poverty stricken independant Scotland having to crawl to Europe for her daily bread because some foolish greedy men in Scotland, for the sake of their names, wanted a separation from what has worked fine for years and years and years.

173

Graeme Gibson,

Sydney Australia 15/08/2007 06:29:05

Would I be correct in saying that Scotland, apart from England, as an independant nation, would not be a really wealthy country. She's beautiful but would tourism alone feed her if she separated from England. There's no doubt that the move for change is not always of God or of wisdom but sometimes of dark powers in the spirit realm who want destruction at all costs. Think carefully Scotland. Not all men work God and not all men work for mankind...some work for the "other". Christians who know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour know this only too well.

174

Scudder,

Glasgow 15/08/2007 07:42:54

Go Alex ,,, Now is the time and now is the hour.
It's long past time to throw off the sickening, suffocating shackles of these english who think they are our overlords.
We will have our FREEDOM. And YOU are the man to deliver it. Keep up the good work.

175

Ken S.,

A corner of a foreign Union that's forever England 15/08/2007 08:27:39

#167. Keander
"..Apparently, according to the BBC 10 o'clock news, Scotland has a vote 10 years ago on full independence and chose to stay with the Union. Did I miss something, was I asleep, I can't remember that..."

Ah yes, I remember it well. There was a 98% turn-out by the electorate, with folk rising from their sickbeds to stagger along to the polling booths. The outcome was a resounding 110% vote in favour of remaining in full Union, under the loving care, protection and tutellage of us noble English.

176

Honest Jock,

Leith 15/08/2007 10:31:35

182

Oh I am way passed that stage I even question my alarm clock in the morning.

177

livilion,

livingston 15/08/2007 11:16:09

191. Graeme Gibson, Sydney Australia
Scotland's GDP would put it in the top 30 of the 196 UN economies in the world, no need to worry on the economic score.

As for the 'destruction at all costs' and working for the 'other'.

Edinburgh in particular has had a brisk trade in 'the other' for centuries but this has hardly impacted on the public consciousness or policy making of the government in any significant measure.

I have it on good authority from a source close to the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland and with intercession from St Andrew hmself that God smiles on the efforts of the Scots to improve the lot of their country and its people.

178

Taxi driver,

edinburgh 15/08/2007 11:52:12

Some of us didn't even vote for devolution and dont recognise the Scottish Parliament.

The damage this mad man Salmond is doing to Scotland is terrible. I wouldn't be surprised if our real leader (Gordon Brown) moved the submarines out of Scotland anyway and all the jobs that go with it.

Does anyone really think that Scotand would prospore on its own, when 20% of the male population in its largest city are unemployed.

179

elizabeth veldon,

bleeding without Wallis 15/08/2007 14:17:18

162. Martin Gallagher:

the whole dancing round the saltire and wraping ones self in tartan is sickening.

Scotish culture and history are facinating and complex but I find them more and more reduced to a fundamentalism that is more at home in the tartin and shortbread shops on the Royal Mile than in a modern nation

180

elizabeth veldon,

on a march 15/08/2007 14:19:42

168. Zoom:

I am indeed lovely and I am an Anti-Fashist but not THE antifachist.

There's only one of them.

181

elizabeth veldon,

in a (forward) time warp 15/08/2007 14:25:40

180. Robert E:

Unionists seem blissfully unaware of the resurgence of the Scottish spirit that's taken place in the last 35 years or so. Have they never heard one of Carver's Masses, or a Gaelic psalm? Probably not, they're too busy soaking up yet more of the the Anglo-American crassness that passes for culture.

---you are a fashist and I claim my £5!

I have CDs of medival Scotish Music as well as Engliash. I read early Scotish poets as well as Anglo 'crassness.'

Scotland has all the good stuff while Englind is degenerate.

As I said, you're a fashist.

182

elizabeth veldon,

in a (forward) time warp 15/08/2007 14:33:09

183. Senga Jean:

But Blake's Jerusalem is a fine, beautifull and complex work - possibly even a Socalist one!

A bit odd to sing it in Glasgow but it's still a fine poem.

183

elizabeth veldon,

head burried in theory 15/08/2007 14:43:46

189. High Flyer:

I, as what you and others see as an evil Unionist (thought I am not), am acused of being afraid (of what I'm not sure.)

I'd ask why you react so strongly against the idea of discusing this on the level of Theory? Are YOU afraid? Afraid that a bit of Political Theory, a bit of Philosiphy, and your 'Nationalism' is shown up as the Fashist nonsence it realy is?

184

livilion,

livingston 15/08/2007 17:35:46

197. Taxi driver, edinburgh
I'm surprived that as a cabbie you don't recognise the Scottish Parliament.
It's that big white building with the funny windows facing Dynamic Earth.
Honest, you can't miss it.

I'm also flabbergated to hear of a cabbie who isn't an expert on life, the universe and everything.
Every other cabbie in Britain knows that there is only one location in Britain that has sufficient deep water access in a defendable location with a second site far enough away to be out of the blast radius of a rocket fuel explosion in which nuclear warheads can be deposited for safe stage.

Close enough to a population centre for base service staff to reach but far enough away to avoid concerns from a local population(London) worried about being inside 'the bullseye' in any potential nuclear conflict.

Who could still imagine that Scotland could not prosper when just about every prosperous western democracy seems to have had major benefits from having Scots involved in their success.

Scotland it would appear is the only place on the planet where Scots should not prosper.

185

elizabeth veldon,

15/08/2007 17:44:46

203. livilion 'Scotland it would appear is the only place on the planet where Scots should not prosper.'

---damn right! They'll only buy Bag Pipes and Short Bread with all their spare cash!

186

livilion,

livingston 15/08/2007 17:49:23

197. Taxi driver, edinburgh

Here's a list of the 50 largest economies in the world.
It is a few years out of date but is sufficient to give Scotland's relative position in the world BEFORE independence.
1.United States 9602bn
2.Japan 4519bn
3.Germany 2064bn
4.United Kingdom 1460bn (-Scotland 110-124bn)
5.France 1438bn
6.Italy 1163bn
7.China 1063bn
8.Canada 650bn
9.Brazil 610bn
10.Spain 595bn
11.Mexico 497bn
12.India 455bn
13.South Korea 421bn
14.Netherlands 398bn
15.Australia 388bn
16.Taiwan 283bn
17.Argentina 276bn
18.Switzerland 274bn
19.Belgium 252bn
20.Russia 241bn
21.Sweden 241bn
22.Austria 205bn
23.Turkey 202bn
24.Denmark 172bn
25.Poland 162bn
26.Norway 155bn
27.Saudi Arabia 150bn
28.Finland 130bn
29.South Africa 129bn
30.Greece 126bn
31.Thailand 122bn
32.Indonesia 120bn

33.Scotland 117bn**

34.Portugal 111bn
35.Iran 107bn
36.Israel 104bn
37.Venezuela 104bn
38.Singapore 99.4
39.Egypt 95.4bn
40.Ireland 86bn
41.Colombia 85.3bn
42.Philippines 78.8bn
43.Malaysia 78.7bn
44.Burma (Myanmar) 73.9bn
45.Chile 69.9bn
46.Pakistan 61bn
47.Czech Republic 53.9bn
48.Peru 53.4bn
49.New Zealand 49.8bn
50.United Arab Emirates 48.7bn

http://www.corporations.org/system/top100.html

187

livilion,

livingston 15/08/2007 18:00:12

204. elizabeth veldon
Fair comment, I know I'm never away from the bagpipe shop, and I can't even play them.

New shoes? 'jings crivens, I'll just have to nip down and get a set of pipes to go with these'!
http://www.edinburghbagpipes.co.uk/index.php?main_page=pr...

188

livilion,

livingston 15/08/2007 18:16:41

202. elizabeth veldon, head burried in theory

Think you could do with sticking your head in a dictionary or thesaurus.

Fashist: person who follows a fashion or interest for a time with exaggerated zeal

Fascist: often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Which one did you mean?

189

Stephen Allinson,

London, England 16/08/2007 09:00:36

I'm all for Alex Salmond and Independence for Scotland - if only so we can claim England back from Scottish Labour. Cry freedom - Home Rule for England!


 

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