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Poll says support for Scots independence at all-time low

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Published Date: 30 April 2008
By IAN SWANSON
SUPPORT for an independent Scotland has fallen to an all-time low, a new opinion poll claimed today.
Just 19 per cent of people said they would vote for independence in a multi-option referendum on Scotland's future. Nearly three-quarters of those questioned backed keeping the Scottish Parliament as it is or increasing its powers.

But the YouGov
survey also found support for the SNP had increased since last year's Holyrood elections. And more than half said they approved of the Scottish Government's record over the past year. The findings on independence will be a blow to First Minister Alex Salmond, whose declared strategy is to govern well under devolution so people are persuaded to opt for independence.

The poll, for today's Daily Telegraph, found in a yes/no referendum, 59 per cent would be in favour of retaining the present parliament and 25 per cent would back "a completely separate state outside the UK".

But if the option of "greater powers" was added – as Mr Salmond has proposed – support for independence fell to 19 per cent, compared with 34 per cent supporting the parliament's existing powers and 38 per cent for more powers.

The previous lowest level of support for independence was 23 per cent in a survey by the Scottish Centre for Social Research last year. And the findings contrast with two recent polls which put support for independence at around 40 per cent.

However, asked on voting intentions in a Scottish Parliament election, 36 per cent said they would back the SNP in the constituency vote – up from 33 per cent in the elections last May. Labour was down one point to 31 per cent, the Liberal Democrats down one to 15 per cent and the Tories down four to 13 per cent.

In the regional or list vote, the SNP had 37 per cent support – up six points – while Labour was down one to 28 per cent, the Lib Dems up two to 13 per cent and the Tories down one to 13 per cent.

SNP deputy leader and Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon MSP said the growing SNP lead showed the party's honeymoon was continuing on the back of solid policy delivery.

And on independence, she said: "If you ask a straight question, unlike in this poll, then you will get a straight answer. The most recent poll to ask the question as it would be put in a referendum showed support for independence for Scotland moving ahead of the status quo – advancing by 16 points since last summer."

In the YouGov poll, fifty-two per cent of people said they approved of the Scottish Government's record while 27 per cent disapproved. And 53 per cent said they were satisfied with Mr Salmond and 33 per cent dissatisfied.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 April 2008 4:00 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 11:28:04
We like bits of this poll. Clearly the bit on independence is accurate, but the bit about approval of the SNP government and SNP support is inaccurate.

While we Unionists totally rejected the 2 polls in April showing support for independence at 40% as those polls were flawed, this poll we accept (in part) as it is not flawed.
2

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 11:32:58
Quick Wendy force a vote of no confidence in the Government and force an election before the pollsters change their minds again.
3

Alan B,

30/04/2008 11:38:32
Why does the article not print the questions asked?

"If you ask a straight question, unlike in this poll, then you will get a straight answer."

That seems to suggest that a question was asked to get the answer wanted.
4

Alan B,

30/04/2008 11:43:01
While i support independence, there seems to be a big majority that would support more powers for the sp. By adding together those than want independence and those that want much more powers for the sp.

It would make sense then for the sp to be granted significantly more powers as a first step. The most important of those being fiscal autonomy. It would mean a proper discussion can be conducted over independence and what it really means rather than mudding the waters with the promise of more powers.

Also with fiscal autonomy and some of the other obvious powers then the scottish parliament can start making a real difference, starting with our economy.


5

oder,

Scotland 30/04/2008 11:47:55
No problem! general election scupper the nats now?
dont hold your breath! not likey to happen! labour wouldn`t want an such unfair advantage, great sporting types that Labour are!
6

brownlie,

30/04/2008 11:49:31
1 Union is blessed

Good morning - what a fine day to be a unionist.

Great news for us!! A massive 27% disapproved of the SNP Government and an even more massive 33% are dissatisfied with Alex Salmond. After lessons from HM, shortly to be released, I'm beginning to like these polls.

7

Alan B,

30/04/2008 12:00:12
#5 MyNameIsEarl

Would u trust the telegraph?

It just seems to go so much against the other recent polls.

One thing i have noticed with uk polls not regarding scotland. Is if u look at polls commissioned by the telegraph and the guardian, on similar topics, they alway have results confirming their own editorial view.
8

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 12:00:56
This is just too much fun.

You nat-wits must be sitting at your machines raging. Having spent weeks complaining that "unionists" reject polls, totally drooling over one isolated and solitary poll, you now are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing.

Haha, the truth hurts eh? Between 1/5 to 1/4 want Scotland to be independent.

Don't you Nats just hate democracy? You all must be fuming.
9

Brian M,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:11:21
A very skewed interpretation of a skewed question
10

Sedov,

Scotland 30/04/2008 12:11:52
The vast majority of Scottish people understand that independence within the global economy is a romantic myth peddled by highly paid politicians who cannot see beyond their noses and who have taken advantage of a certain section of the Scottish population whose main motive for nationalism is that for some reason or other they hate the English. We have a devolved parliament and we need to give it more fiscal powers and which can act on behalf of all the Scottish people and help combat the rotten system of markets and capital which is failing the majority, not only within Scotland but throughout the world. Its only by uniting all working people can this be acheived and not by erecting barriers and borders. Internationalism, not nationalism!
11

BIG EYE,

Paisley 30/04/2008 12:12:04
anyone want to bet that this nonsense poll will get great coverage in the unionist press?

Anyway if it keeps Unionists thinking they are winning when they are in fact getting an absolute hammering on virtually every issue then it can only make the day after the next election all the more fun.

Surprised the poll didn't announce large gains to be made by Labour in England and Wales tomorrow but perhaps it will appear in tomorrow's paper.

The debate has moved on in Scotland all that remains to be determined is how long we give the English to strip our resources before independence happens.

Normally i would be worried about this but Unionist posters on this site are so pathetic it seems to me that they have given up the ghosts already.

Roll on elections in Scotland and those prone to Unionist bias be worried, very worried about being exposed as such when the results come rolling in.

Keep up the good work SNP
12

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 12:12:19
9. Well said! The Nats insistence on a referendum opposed by us Unionists shows how much they hat democracy!
13

AJ Fife,

30/04/2008 12:12:23
Was this another poll carried out in the Scotsman offices?
14

me150,

30/04/2008 12:13:15
Funny that, none of the usual SNP posters here today so far.

I wonder why?????

Can't handle to true position of their party?
15

brownlie,

30/04/2008 12:18:14
9 Alfred E.

Great stuff - nearly as great as your escape. I hope that this is not a ploy by the nasty nats to lull us into a false sense of security so that we just carry on being negative and plundering the poor. and enriching the rich.
16

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 30/04/2008 12:22:07
I predict more polls showing support for independence at over 40% and more suggesting it's around 20%. The answer you get clearly depends upon the question that you ask. I support the gradualist route. I don't think unionists should be crowing so soon; after all, you still have to agree what you collectively mean by 'more powers'. If Brown loses the next Westminster election - as looks increasingly likely - Wendy's commission may become Anabelle's commission. What then? What is clear from this poll is that support for the SNP is still high, whereas support for Labour has stalled, and support for the Tories in Scotland is going down. It seems the unionists posting here are all happy with that.
17

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 12:22:09
13 Union is best

You are democracy hating Nationalist. The majority of people do not want independence or a referendum.

What give a minorty pressure group the right to waste a countries time on referendums?

If 20% of Scots want to see donkey sancturies refurbished, but the government has other priorities with the cash. Would you support the Donkey question going to the polls?

Can all you Nats tell us why this poll is "skewed" and why it is "nonsense"? On what basis do you assert this frippery?
18

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 12:25:43
16 Brownlie

That would be the Labour party doing that, not the Union. I dislike Labour as much as you do, and more than I dislike the SNP.

But what do you think of the poll? Does it cause you pain to know you are in a minority? Do you hate democracy?
19

Queen D,

Glasgow 30/04/2008 12:30:43
Delighted to hear that the poll results are so low!
Lets have the real poll now!
Give us a referendum now!
Never having been polled in my life , except of course by this newspaper which refused to publish its results or the so called e-mail, I regard polls as a wasteful activity sponsored by self interested spin doctors.
Skewing results by the wording of questions has ever been the method of getting what you want!
NEVER believe a poll by the Telegraph!Or for that matter any newspaper with a not so hidden agenda.
20

Steve,

30/04/2008 12:31:34
So lets get this straight, after 2 or 3 polls showing support for indepepndence to be at an all time high....


along comes another showing it to be at an all time low!

Priceless.
21

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 12:31:44
15. Bit of an own goal there, as the poll seems to put the SNP ahead still, but I think I understood what you were trying to say!
22

unbiased,

In Scotland 30/04/2008 12:31:57
Where did they do this poll? North Lanarkshire - methinks. They certainly didn't ask me or anyone else I know!
23

Aesop,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:32:42
Maybe the next time the Daily Torygraph commissons an opinion poll on independence they should interview more people than those they spot hanging outside the pubs in Larkhall and Govan in shell suits.
24

unbiased,

Nairn 30/04/2008 12:34:46
Aesop - a telephatic moment there!
25

unbiased,

Nairn 30/04/2008 12:35:04
oops - telepathic!
26

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 30/04/2008 12:37:11
The Telegraph describe this poll as "the most in-depth analysis yet of attitudes to constitutional change" but I cannot see what the sample group was. How many people were asked? Can anyone enlighten me?
27

Andrew Murphy,

EDINBURGH 30/04/2008 12:37:59
So what? The poll states one thing but the voters will do something else.

Put it too the vote and let the electorate dicide this issue once and for all.

That after all is true democracy.

My vote is already decided for when it comes.

And it will come eventually.
28

Jimmy the Pie,

30/04/2008 12:39:48
What about the result of the poll carried out about a month ago by the Hootsmoan on Sunday?? I must have missed the result in the excitement of the English local elections. Can anyone help???
I also missed seeing Red Wendy's e-mails.
I really am slipping!!
29

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/04/2008 12:45:34
29
You're not slipping, that particular poll was abandoned because SNP HQ were caught red-handed trying to doctor the results. Looks like they couldn't use their malign influence with The Tortygraph though, eh?
30

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 12:48:07
29 Jimmy the Pie

Okay, thanks for that rant, but...

What do you think of this poll? Do you accept the results?
31

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 30/04/2008 12:48:30
Sedov* Even Marx said that before you can be come an internationalist you must first become a nationalist.

And I do mean karl not Groucho!

Anyway, I missed this poll, how many people were asked?
32

unbiased,

Nairn 30/04/2008 12:48:50
*Please enter your comment*
33

Jimmy the Pie,

30/04/2008 12:52:00
#30

That's it! You've convinced me that I have been misguided for the last 40 years. I will no longer follow the SNP line and after severely beating myself aboot the heid, I will call myself a Unionist.
My next problem is which of the glorious unionist parties should I support??

I will also never mention again the posting below.



British Pride,
11/04/2008 18:16:47
553. Whoa! Great! Such typical SNP incite. Fantastic! I only post as Highland Mighty, can you say the same you cyber-nay???
34

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/04/2008 12:52:42
32
Marx supported nationalism? A spectacularly inaccurate interpretation of socialism. A common failing among nationalists throughout history, unfortunately.
35

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 30/04/2008 12:54:32
Re a referendum: There wont be one from Holyrood because the umionist parties don't want it, they could vote one through if they wished, but won't.

Westminster has the power to hold one,but the unionist partyies there won't do it either, all this begs the question, why not?

There is only one obvious answer, they are scared.
36

Blarney,

Cambusbarron 30/04/2008 12:55:29
Great news!!
Totally accept this result. All the other recent polls have been wrong.
Infact let's not even mention them anymore, they were obviously a silly blip.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
Come on Wendy call a referendum now, come on, you are on to a definate winner.
Trust the poll Wendy, it's not fake, it's real, yeah like, really real not makey up real like the others recently that we will never mention again, never.
yours sincerely
A devout and unblinkered Unionist.
37

Blarney,

Arbroath 30/04/2008 13:01:41
Come on Jackie, your not honestly saying that these figures have been manipulated by a trustworthy and reliable source like the Telegraph are you?
Jesus H, some people just can't stand being shown to be in the minority.
Obviously support for Independence is merely at about 33% and all the rest, wether they have an opinion or not are absolutely against Independence. So there you have it, long live the beautifull Union with our equal partner.
38

Jimmy the Pie,

30/04/2008 13:03:13
Jackie Priest

Jackie, I've seen the light and the error of my ways. Join me as a born again Unionist. The unerring logical arguments put forward by AM2 and his friends have overwhelemed me with their passion, logic and commonsense.

Join me, you know it makes sense!!
39

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 13:05:18
32 Ochone

Ochone presents an interesting example of the uncoordinated logic of the SNP voter's mind.

"Even Marx said that before you can be come an internationalist you must first become a nationalist."

So if you are an internationalist you have progressed and if you are an internationalist in 2008 why go backwards?

I mean, do you not see how daft you are arguing that an internationalist country must become a nationalist otherwise it will never become an internationalist, and internationalism is the goal which we are aspiring too.
40

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 13:08:20
39 Jackie Priest

"Personally, I'd put..."

Another fascinating insight into the mind of an SNP voter. Receive a fact that the majority of Scots are happy being part of the UK, denial denial denial!, dive! dive! dive! um, let's used some fantasy I just made up, yes, I will believe in my fantasy, it is safe inside la-la land.

You do not offer any reasons in support of your argument the Telegraph cannot be trusted, and you didn't tell us on what basis your punt at the "truth" was made - did you ask a mate?
41

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 13:09:23
35. We in New Labour are more Marks and Spencerist than Marxist, but we feel he would have supported doubling the tax on the lowest paid, cutting inheritance tax for millionnaires and prioritising spending on nuclear WMD and wars, over services for those in need of them.
42

Blarney,

Stornoway 30/04/2008 13:09:27
Count me in, I've had enough of these SNP clowns.
Union good........Independence bad..........Union good...........Independence bad.............Union good........Independence bad..........Union good...........Independence bad.
Ahhh life is so much easier with your head up your backside.
43

Vivas,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:10:31
Doh ! Wendys already getting her moneys worth from this member of the "ahem" constitutional commission.

And as this comic has already reported (verbatim quote):

MURDOCH MACLENNAN
Is the chief executive of the Telegraph Media Group. The flagship paper in his organisation has recently launched a campaign to promote Britishness.
44

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 13:10:33
44. Good post. I hope no one looks up your posts on the poll the other week that showed independence ahead!

We Unionists believe polls are better than a referendum, when we like the poll results!
45

Geoff,

sa 30/04/2008 13:15:51
9 Alfred E Neuman :)

If this poll is to be believed this is good news! But I temper my joy-what about the poll the other day that claimed 41% in favour of independence? Maybe as I postulated-the polls are simply not reliable? Also one consistent fact emerges-Alex Salmond and the SNP seem popular as the Scottish Government and appear to be doing a good job, but this popularity is not incompatible with the rejection of their basic policy on independence. In other words they are a great Scottish government but we want to remain in the Union
46

Blarney,

Inverbottom 30/04/2008 13:16:57
Alf E Neuman for first minister, he really speaks such good sense.
What a relief that someone of his calibre is prepared to sit on here all day defending the wonderfull Union.
God bless you Alf...............sorry....I'm filling up!
47

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 13:26:55
49 Geoff

Individual polls such as the solitary one showing 41% are indeed unreliable.

But when you take an average of many they tend to be a bit useful. Such as the multiple polls spanning many years showing support for independence at between 1/5 to 1/4.

You have to remember with polls as well. "Will you be voting conservative?" "No." *Goes into booth votes conservative*

Independence questions are much the same. There is often a difference between what people really think and what they are prepared to admit to others.

Sometimes I just tell SNP voters in the pub that I support independence to placate them. They are often drunk and abusive, ranting and raving and sometimes threatening Englishmen with physical violence.
48

Vivas,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:27:56
I treat all polls that show upsurges/downsurges for independence with pretty much the same degree of healthy scepticism.

It's all about timing, and the political and economic landscape in this country in a couple of years will be vastly different. Broon and UK-labour dead in the water. A possible UK-conservative majority looming for the next 5-10 years after that.

If the SNP keep the heid, then when *the real poll* comes, it'll be all hands to the pumps to get the desired result. Thats when the SNP - and those of us who favour independence - can hammer home the argument. But I won't be losing a nights sleep about what any poll says today or tomorrow !

49

Calum10,

30/04/2008 13:34:27
What this poll shows that the status quo is unacceptable to a majority of Scots, that only confirms other multi-option polling over the past few years.

Also this poll highlights that the SNP's honeymoon is over, in fact that period has been over for months. What this poll shows is the growing recognition by Scots that this SNP government is highly competent.
50

,

30/04/2008 13:35:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 13:37:00
53 Scottish and proud

Support wasn't at 40% last week.

It was 20-25% for years then 40% once then 20-25% again. So the trend is obvious.

The approval rating is because anyone is better than Labour. The SNP is swimming in a sea of crap.
52

DaveK,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:40:50
I haven't seen polls this heaily abused or misrepresented since World War Two.
53

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:42:01
The Scottish cringe is live and well !
54

John PM,

edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:43:08
The poll asks whether people support "a completely separate state outside the UK" this raises the idea that the Queen will not be head off state after independence. Also we will still be in the EU so we won't really be cut off from other countries.

In actual fact the United Kingdom (or Kingdoms) would remain, it would be the British state that would be broken up with independent parliaments for Scotland and England (and Wales no doubt shortly after).

I am a republican but it is a fact that when republicanism or the EU is suggested the poll figures are adjusted downwards for independence, because these issues divide the electorate.

As 'more powers' are not defined people may well be envisaging a parliament with power over defence and foreign affairs which can only happen with independence.

I believe that YouGov's methedology is flawed because it relies on people who sign up as being interested in filling in opinion polls. Such people are not representative of the public at large and YouGov's figures are often wildly inaccurate.

At the current time they are proposing a double figures poll lead for Boris Johnson in the Mayoral poll in London. What's the betting that this proves to be nonsense?

Nonethless I'm sure our unionist friends will shout about this dubious figure and (as they did recently with another rogue low poll) use it to justify ignoring everyone who wants self determination for Scotland.
55

Grahamski,

30/04/2008 13:45:41
53
Surely the only poll that counts is an election rather than a referendum. A referendum, incidentally, which the majority of our elected MSPs do not support. Why should a minority be allowed to dictate to the majority over referenda?
Let's have a referendum when the majority vote for MSPs who advocate one.
56

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:46:09
What would be the point of independence? What would change? Nothing.

We'd likely as not still be saddled with rediculously high fuel prices, the nanny state and the nazi state. As far as I am concerned, no-one stands out in Holyrood as having the bottle to stick their neck out and change anything like that.

Should Scotland get independence, life for the average man in the street would not change. We'd just carry on down the same old boring, wasteful and oppressive route that we have been on since labour got to power in 1997.

Why bother? All it would do is cost us more money---which in turn would mean higher taxes.
57

Andrew D,

Brisbane 30/04/2008 13:48:20
The Scotsman needs to get consistent.

The poll showing support was high was ignored entirely. I think it got mentioned as a by the way in another story some days later.

This one showing it is low, gets the prime spot, first story on the page, and straight away.

But consistency or fairness is not really part of this paper's lexicon. Partisan hackery however is.
58

John S,

30/04/2008 13:48:49
#51 - You are correct when you said - individual polls such as the solitary one showing 41% are indeed unreliable. But when you take an average of many they tend to be a bit useful.
The question asked was the one the Scottish Government is proposing to put to the voters in referendum with the electorate having the choice of either I AGREE or I DO NOT AGREE the actual results are:-
TNS System Three March 2008
I agree: 41%
I do not agree: 40%
Don't know: 19%
Scottish Daily Express Jan 2008
I agree: 27%
I do not agree: 44%
Don't know: 11%
Would not vote 4%
TNS System Three Nov 2007
I agree 40%
I do not agree 44%
Don't know 16%
TNS System Three Aug 2007
I agree 35%
I do not agree 50%
Don't know 15%

The I agree average is 35.75%, remove the SDE result and the I agree average is 38.66%


59

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 30/04/2008 13:49:42
So what do you know - isn't this exactly what Nicol Stephen has been saying? Yes the truth sometimes hurt (the nationalists) but it shows once again the LibDems ARE more in tune with the majority opinion yet again they just need to find better ways of delivering their message to the masses, and this usually happens at election time so bring it on.
60

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:52:55
#63. Maybe it would change nothing. I think it could make it easier to change things though... easier than it will be within the UK anyway.

I don't see how it would cost us more money though. Surely by removing the duplication of paying our share of Westminster Parliament, our share of £20bn and more next generation Trident, British military conquests around the world, establish an oil fund a la Norway to invest in the future, reduce corporation tax to improve economic growth etc etc, we could be better off as a country.
61

Alan B,

30/04/2008 13:54:02
#56 Alfred E. Neuman

"It was 20-25% for years then 40% once then 20-25% again. So the trend is obvious."

That is rubbish. As the guy Curtis (Strathclyde uni election expert) said on tv the other night there have been a broadly even split between those wanting independence and those not wanting independence for the last 9yrs based on opinion polls.

If u cast ur mind back to the months before last yrs election the polls consistently showed more people wanting independence.

I remember scotsman headlines saying "support for independence drops" but when u read the article it showed that there was still more wanting independence it was just a percentage point or 2 less than the one a few months before.
62

lilywhite,

borders 30/04/2008 13:55:31
One would assume that Wendy Nicol and Annabelle will be screaming from the rooftops for a referendum asap.
Bring it on
63

Alan B,

30/04/2008 13:57:57
#Jimmy the Pie

"What about the result of the poll carried out about a month ago by the Hootsmoan on Sunday?? I must have missed the result in the excitement of the English local elections. Can anyone help???"

Apparently the scotsman did not like the result so the decided not to publish them. No real surprise.

64

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:00:07
#64. Ian Swanson did write a piece about the last poll (showing a majority for independence) and in it he pretty much made the exact opposite conclusions he makes here. I usually like Ian's pieces, but it seems like he is just making this up as he goes along.

#66. I agree that the Lib Dem's policy is the most popular. However, the Lib Dems could have been in coalition with the SNP if they wanted. We could have had a referendum on their preferred option AND independence. It appears to me that they area more concerned about projecting the Union than progressing their own policies on improving the way we are governed. If the Lib Dems want any credibility, they need to look capable of implementing their policy on devolution max/federalism, and the Unionist Commission will definitely not do that.
65

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:05:59
#66 Liberal for life

The biggest problem with ur party is Nicol Stephens the guy is dreadful as a leader. (if u are being kind he is to leadership what john major was to the tories or swinney was to the snp).

U say that an election would explain the lib dem message. What happened last time? (only last yr).

I cannot understand people in denial.

The lib dems have been lead up the garden path with this commission. Brown has limited its scope and it will not delivery what the lib dems want. Why did they back down so much and have such a watered down parliament in the first place.

The lib dems are so wishy washy. If they really believed in more powers for the sp they should have been making that central to their last yrs election campaign making it clear they would not go into coalition with labour without more powers.

Lets here them actually put forward something concrete like fiscal autonomy rather than something vague.
66

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:06:43
It's quite quiet today?

I would have thought this piece would have been of real interest to some of the regular posters?

The truth of the matter is that the UK is succesful and the British identity strong. There is a lot of educated and decent people in Scotland who have grand-parents that fought in the war and children who are well-educated and work down south on high salaries.

Unfortunately there are also uneducated poor people whose criminal tendency and drug-dependency has resulted in them becoming clients of the state on brew money, they have never left the estate. Their grand-parents were draft-dodgers and their children illeterate. They hate/blame the English and vote SNP, but really they just havethemselves to blame.
67

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:09:34
#73 Merouane

The lib dems did not even have accept a referendum on independence (although it would have been the democratic thing to do). They should have atleast gone into talks with the snp about a way forward.

There uk leader Campbell made a deal with his buddy brown to stop any lib dem, snp discussions. And Nicol Stephens like the poodle he is followed his master.

It would be very easy for the 2 parties to put off a discussion on an independence referendum till after they achieve fiscal autonomy. That would have most likely suited both sides.
68

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:12:50
#Alfred E. Neuman

"The truth of the matter is that the UK is succesful"

If you think scotland has been successful within the uk, u have very low ambitions for ur country and its people.
69

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:15:47
#63 "What would be the point of independence? What would change? Nothing."

So it is crap now, but we should not try to do anything about it. Nothing like being ambitous.

Why do u think other small countries can do so much better than us? Do u think we are uniquely incapable.
70

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:16:22
77 Alan B

Why?

What can I achieve within an independent Scotland that I cannot as part of the UK?

You can assume for these purposes I excel at advanced maths, physics and engineering?

Build a channel tunnel? No

Build a Sky-scraper? No

Get involved in advanced research? Less likely

Oxfords motor sport industry? Less likely

The list is endless.

If you are a parochial failure who needs the oil for a boost to the old brew money? Yes! But do we class that as ambition?
71

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:18:31
#75. My grandparents fought in the war. I am well educated and previously lived "down south" (although the salary wasn't particularly large). What's your point?

#76. Yes, spot on. And that little episode sums up why even Lib Dem style federalism won't be enough (although it will be a good next step). Even within the Lib Dem party structure, we have a Scottish leader who can be dictated to and manipulated to preserve the interests of the UK party.
72

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:22:48
Grahamski "Let's have a referendum when the majority vote for MSPs who advocate one."

u do not really believe in democracy do u? u must support labour.

The whole idea of a referendum is to let people decide an issue. It is used generally round consitutional issues rather than following the party line.

The problem with referendum in this country is the labour party who have used them for party polical purposes. Blair would use it for the eu constitution as he might lose an election. Not for the improving democracy. Then they decide not to have a referendum on substantially the same treaty because they have realy won the election.

Referendum should not be used by governments to implement their own policies but to give the people a real choice over issues particularly constitutional ones.

Personally i like the way the us does it where, the people can call for a referendum that by passes the politicians. Direct democracy is a far better way to decide issues that dumb politicians looking out for themselves.
73

John S,

30/04/2008 14:24:00
#75 - The truth of the matter is that the UK is succesful, I agree with you.
The Adam Smith Institute - April 27, 2007
The paper, “Independent Scotland: The Road to Riches,” It examines the comparative performance of Scotland and England, finding that from 1992-2004, Scotland’s gross value added grew at 4.7 percent, compared with a UK average of 5.4 percent, giving Scotland only 87 percent of the UK’s growth.


74

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:26:53
#77. An independent Scotland can take action based on the wishes of the people of Scotland. That's something that a UK government will not do.

The Parliament of an independent Scotland will more accurately reflect the votes cast. The UK is unlikely to change its system where the party with 35% of the vote has complete authority.

As for the other stuff you mention, in theory, everything we could do in an independent Scotland, you are right, we could do within the Union. But so many of these things are not happening. Because the money is not there and because the political will is not there at the highest level of government.

That is what needs to change.
75

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:31:15
#79 Alfred E. Neuman

I know u try to do the wind up thing. But try no to play dumb.

"Why?"

Scotland has had low economic growth of less that 2% (avg) over the last 10, 20 and 30yrs. (The uk as a whole has done much better.)

Teh countries specified beloow all done better gdp ppp that the uk. And scotland has grown less than the uk.

Luxembourg, Norway, Cyprus, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita (imf)







76

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:31:25
82 John S

You sound angry and your point is stupid. Two facets that are often seen in the same person.

I said the UK is successful and tried to prove it wasn't by comparing to countries of the UK with each other? I mean where to begin?

Firstly, if you want to prove the UK is not a success compare it with more than one other country not in the UK. Heavens above man, you have been indoctrinated by the cult of Salmond. Just shouting random and irrelevent things because it supports your believe you have been robbed.

Secondly, you must demonstrate that the 0.7 difference is down to the UK is you want to be taken seriously. I submit the difference is down to Labour-led Glasgow, England isn't as bogged down as Scotland with Birmingham/Liverpool.

So long as we have our largest city dominating Europe in gang-warfare, murder, drugs and brew money we will always be shackled.
77

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:33:16
#Alfred E. Neuman

"What can I achieve within an independent Scotland that I cannot as part of the UK?"

For u personally, hopefully better community care.
78

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:36:53
87 Alan B

Thanks for that, but can you answer the question? I submit you cannot. I submit you are brainwashed, your arguments are froth, accusations glib.

Please tell me what people can do in an independent Scotland that they cannot do as part of the UK?

You just hate the English becaue daddy blamed them for his circumstances?
79

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:37:12
#86 Alfred E. Neuman

So ur contention is scotland is doing crap but it is inevitable because of glasgow. At we least u have admitted scotland has been doing crap economically.

The only difference i can see between us on this issue is i think we can do something about it u have given up.
80

John S,

30/04/2008 14:38:41
#86 - I was supporting you when you said "the UK is successful" and showed some figures to help you prove your point.
81

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:41:49
#88 Alfred E. Neuman

if u had read the thread i had made a serious reply to u in #85.

Also indpendence has nothing to do with hating england. That is just the dumb labour defence of the union as they, like urself cannot actually come up with any tangible argument.

I lived in england for about 9yrs over 2 different periods. So u really are clueless. Independence is about whether scotland can do better. Can be run better.
82

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 14:42:27
Logically, support for independence correlates pretty well with support for the SNP. This poll indicated 36-37% and the next most recent poll said 41%.
83

brownlie,

30/04/2008 14:43:22
Alfred E.

Alfie, your medication is wearing off - seek help immediately.
84

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 14:44:28
#18 Alf

How do you know what the majority of the people want?
85

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 14:44:52
No great surprise. We Scots know on which side our bread is buttered.
86

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:45:07
Alfred

Can u actually try to put ur serious hat on and give put forward an economic argument for the union based on the fact we have done so crap within it over the last lot of decades.

I notice the typical unionist side step is to say the uk is doing well as a whole. Neat polical trick but does expose the limitations or ur own beliefs about the success of the union.
87

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:45:45
Alan B (Famous Rik Mayal political character?)
Jackie Priest

You cannot answer the question, you cannot give an example of one thing that I can do in an independent Scotland that I connot do withint the UK.

Can you name one thing, just one? I sumbit you cannot and have been brainwashed.
88

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 30/04/2008 14:47:13
I just held a poll outside labour headquarters and the result was 100% against Scottish Independance. I held the same poll outside the SNP headquarters and not surprisingly they voted 100% for Scottish Independance.
89

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:47:25
95 Conboy

Every election in Scotland has never returned enough SNP ministers to pursue the independence aim. Alex Salmond acknowledged that in 1998. Ten years on and you're still not up to date.

What do you hate more democracy or the English?
90

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:48:52
99 Banana Heid

Your imaginary poll had these results.

Labour HQ For 10% Against 90%

SNP HQ For 70% Against 30%


A lot of main party voters want independence, likewise a lot of SNP voters don't want independence.
91

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:51:13
Alfred

It is u who is not answering questions and side stepping issues with dumb questions. No-one is saying using ur example that independence is about building tunnels.

Economically it is about whether we can create better living standards for scotland. More and better jobs. Be a richer society etc.

I understand ur question. And it translates into ur are doing quite well for urself so it does not matter if others aren't. Or alternatively u just have few ambitions.
92

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 14:51:47
When it comes to the crunch, the Scots (as always) will vote according to the money they have in their pocket now, and the money they think they will have in the future. And the result will be "no" to independence.
93

brownlie,

30/04/2008 14:53:52
98 Alfred

The nats could probably say that in an independent Scotland they would not waste money and lives in an illegal war on a country that presented no threat to Scotland. They could also point out the money wasted on nuclear weapons that can never be used.
94

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:54:52
102 Alan B

Do you know how to create more and better jobs? Can you demonstrate what impact independence would have on that?

Better living standards? Same thing?

Richer society? We can vary tax by 3p in the pound, we could do that already!
95

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 14:55:08
104

brownlie, a question: did you support the Falklands war?
96

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:55:27
#103 W U Merchant

To an extent i agree with u. I think many have been brainwashed into believe we would be poorer as an independent country.

Take the labour policy at the time of the Mcrone report. They ran elections telling people it would be an econcomic disaster to go independence while there own government economic report said we would be one of the richest countries in the world (and england would struggle).

97

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:55:52
Alan B

The upshot is you don't know what you are on about. You heard this glib rhetoric and it fed your hatred of English, a hatred caused by a very real hatred of yourself and your own circumstances.
98

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:56:49
#103. I think you're partly right. And I think this is one of the reasons why we will be independent soon enough. Because people are arating to wake up to the fact that we can be a more prosperous country should we become independent of the UK.
99

Elvis G,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:56:49
The "40%" last week was in a poll reported in the Sunday Herald that only asked status quo vs Independence without including devolution plus as an option. Anything in the Sunday Herald-which is tantamount to a nationalist student rag-should be discounted. Their agenda appears to be driven by journalists-and this applies to others in the media as well-who want to be bigger fish in a smaller pool-i.e an independent Scotland, without thinking of the consequences for those not lucky enough to work in the media!

Lord Sutherland's Report on Personal Care this week highlighted the reason why Scots will not vote for independence at least in the short term.

He rightly noted that the number of over 65's is projected to rise from 837k in 2006 to 1.36m by 2031-a 62% increase. At the same time the number of people of working age will drop during the same period so that there will be a lower tax base to support a rapidly increasing elderly population.

He said that the government needs to establish a "long term vision" to deal with the challenge of an ageing population but of course the SNP will not deal with the issue explicitly as it would raise fundemental questions as how Scotland on its own could address the demographic timebomb!

On top of this a futher poll this week said that the top concern of 80% of the population was how they would be looked after in old age. A double hammer blow for the Nats but don't expect the Scottish media to major on the issue!
100

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:57:44
104 Brownlie

Did you support the Nazi invasion of Poland? That posed no risk to the UK at the time.

That is the point you make. You will bury your selfish head in the sand and hope the wolves never appear at your door.

Shameful. But typical of the SNP. Less international policing means more brew money for you.
101

John S,

30/04/2008 14:58:26
The Adam Smith Institute - April 27, 2007
If an independent Scotland chose to follow the Republic of Ireland’s low-tax route, as SNP leader Alex Salmond has indicated it would, Scotland’s growth rate might be expected, over a five-year period, to move closer to Ireland’s trend growth rate of 7 percent. Given a further five years of Scottish growth at that trend level, and before diminishing returns set in, Scotland’s growth over the ten-year period would put its index 71.5 higher, more than a two-thirds increase in GDP.
By contrast,the rest of the UK would be expected to have grown rather less, by just over a quarter. The result would be dramatic for Scotland. Measured in household income per head, Scotland, which started £1,700 behind the rest of the UK, could be expected to be £6,000 ahead of it at the end of that period.
102

Miss H,

30/04/2008 14:58:56
105 Nobody can demomstrate the future so that is a bit of a daft point.

What is demonstrably the case is that other small countries in North West Europe have been more successful than Scotland.

We in the SNP think that is because they have the decision making powers that Scotland lacks.

You presumably think it is for another reason though unionists never really explain what they believe is the cause.
103

Miss H,

30/04/2008 14:59:57
111 Oh dear when you start to defend the invasion of Iraq you have really lost it.
104

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:59:58
#110. On the contrary. All the more reason for us to sort out our economy to deal with this demographic 'timebomb'. The longer we stay in the Union, the more dependent we become.
105

MoClana,

30/04/2008 15:00:10
Alfred Nueman wrote:
You are democracy hating Nationalist. The majority of people do not want independence or a referendum.

Says who?....you!, all polls show the referendum question at 80% +. Are you really that ignorant of the truth? Your whole sentence is a complete contradiction !

Whether the poll says 24% or 43% there is only one way of settling it....afraid of the outcome?, is your wee Union Jack going to have to remove the saltire, oh no what will you do then, well there always an Orange lodge you could join, they like wave the Union jack, spew haterd and play the flute , so you could learn an instrument too... its a win win situation for you.

You could learn to play god save your Queen...5th verse ,all together now... ' with glorious rush rebillious Scots to crush'

Then you could catch up on Mr Devolution and then learn the tune to 'sic a parcel o rougues in a nation' do you know that one?

Thank god your a lone voice or we would all be litle subjects like you

You silly wee subject !

106

Alan B,

30/04/2008 15:00:39
#105 Alfred

Do u ever answer a question?

My answer about better living standards and being a richer society was posted above.

To repeat:
Luxembourg, Norway, Cyprus, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium

have all got higher gdp ppp than the uk (and scotland has not done well). incase u do not understand gdp ppp is the gdp per person and is the measure of wealth in a country.

Scotland has grown at a pathetic level of less that 2% per yr over the last 30yrs (avg). If we had grown 3% we would be significantly richer. If we had grown like the other small countries i think that was avg 4% we be richer again.

The fact is this shows that the current situation has not worked. Has any unionist party said in the last 30yrs that they could turn this around and put up policies that could do so. NO.
107

Sanny,

30/04/2008 15:02:44
There are only two polls that matter. One is a Referendum with a simple YES/NO Answer and the other is an Election. All other polls are, at best, indicators on that particular day and are very dependant on: - Who asks the question: How the question is framed: To whom the question is asked: The general location of the poll. One has also to remember that the answers given are ‘off the top of the head’. There has been no discussion, debate or considered thought on the matter. Elections and Referenda are a different matter!

Had a Referendum been held BEFORE the last Holyrood Election then ‘fear of the unknown’ would probably have biased the result towards the NO answer. In a similar way, had Brown held a General Election Immediately he became leader of Labour He would probably have won – perhaps with a slightly reduced majority.

If a referendum were held now, on the simple question of Independence or Union, the result would probably be in favour of Independence. Because having demonstrated their fitness to govern in the interest of Scotland, the SNP have allayed the fear of the unknown. Salmond has always, rightly, maintained that that the SNP would need to serve a full term in government to demonstrate their ability before putting the question to the people.

The reverse is true of Brown and his government. Whilst Brown was held in high regard (mistakenly so IMHO) as the Chancellor and was considered to be more to the left than Blair. His actual performance in office has been, at best, dismal and the Electorate want rid of him. It is unlikely he will lead his party into the next election. It is not that Cameron will win the election but that Brown will lose.

Had the SNP failed at the Holyrood Election then the subject of referenda would not even be in discussion today, now it is in daily discussion and even Unionist Parties with their “Commission” are preparing their defences. As the past policies of Brown drive us deep into recession and Scotland’s Weal
108

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 15:04:35
#45 Union is Best

Marx would also have heartily approved of the Brown double-whammy for the less-well-off in our society. The doubling of the 10% income tax rate (costing £232 per year), coupled with a nice new tax to make sure that people who can only afford to drive old cars will now pay £400 in Vehicle Excise Duty. This shouldn't be so hard to pay as it only amounts to an increase of about £300 per year thus being a bigger hit to their pockets than the increase in income tax. What's the big deal, it's only a total of £532 per year. Of course, these poorer folks could always take Alister Darling's advice and avoid VED increases by buying a new car!!
109

Celtic Lion,

30/04/2008 15:05:11
Alfred E. Neuman

As a Scotsman from a mainly English family I must disagree with your repeated insistence that those who vote SNP hate the English. I have no doubt that my English brother who also votes SNP would agree with me.

Incidentally, you will find that anger crosses a broad spectrum of people. Rather it is having a mind to insult others at every opportunity that is a trait often found with stupidity.
110

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 15:05:58
When the referendum date is announced, we Scots will be bombarded with propaganda (from both sides) on a scale never witnessed before - and it will sicken the vast majority of us.
111

Alan B,

30/04/2008 15:06:12
#Alfred

"Did you support the Nazi invasion of Poland? That posed no risk to the UK at the time."

u do not really have much of a grasp of history do u? Britain feared that german domination of europe would treaten the uk and its empire.
112

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 15:08:48
#51 alf

You forgot to do your research. There were 2 polls showing support for independence at about 40-41%.
113

Edward,

30/04/2008 15:09:59
The full article (which is stomache churning I have to say) is in todays Telegraph, to say that the writer is pro unioist would b an understatment.
Anyway reaing some of the question they did appear to be slightly slanted as regards indpendence.
What is surorising is how skewed the poll is. For example it states that there is a clear and increasing support for the SNP, as well as an increase in the support fro Alex Salmond. But the poll also states that support for independence is going down. Now correct me if Im wrong, but if support for independence is going down, then surely support for the SNP would follow likewise, after all they are the party for independence!. Also the nauseating piece in the Telegraph goes out of its way to blame Alex Salmond for continually picking fights with Westminster, ever since the SNP came to power in May of last year! again stating that this is shown in the poll. But again the support for the SNP increases!
Now I would realistically expect that if people do not support the snp and do not support alex salmond and do not support independence, and that everyone feels that the snp pick fights with westminster, then support for the snp would be going down and Labour support would be going through the roof!
An interting observation from the Telegraph piec is that it doesnt quote a sample number, so dont know how many were polled, not is there a link to show the actuall figures and sampling, curious that
114

cataibh,

Bo'ness 30/04/2008 15:10:16
30# You are talking rubbish how could the SNP HQ 'doctor' the results of the a poll run by a unionist newspaper.
115

brownlie,

30/04/2008 15:10:54
111 Alfred

No I was not around at the time.

However, I was around when the Labour leader told the country lies regarding WMDs and an imminent 45 minute threat. I was in London when, in order to frighten the public, he put tanks and soldiers on the streets of London. I was one of the marchers in London against the war. I was one of the over-whelming members of the public opposed to the war - despite that we attacked Iraq and Tony Blair is doing quite well out of human misery - in our name.

I also visited Iraq and saw the devastation and human suffering the war caused to that poor country and it's inhabitants so please do not even attempt to lecture me about wars.

In an independent country where politicians are more accountable and approachable this would not have happened.

An claim that the Uk is democratic is absolute nonsense.
116

pehman,

sussex 30/04/2008 15:11:35
Wasn't there some big wig from the telegraph named in yesterdays wendy review.comm
117

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 15:13:12
#62 Grahamski

Yes, let's just ignore the fact that over 80% of the electorate say they want a referendum.
118

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 15:15:27
125

Edward, it doesn't necessarily follow. My take on it is that many people are delighted with the SNP's performance on the basis that they are standing up for the country's best interests. Scotland's relative position in the union has improved so the majority of Scots are happy with this. But vote for independence? A step too far for the majority, I suspect.
119

Alan B,

30/04/2008 15:15:29
#129 Are labour the "red tories" then.
120

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 15:17:02
129

Yes GBscot, I agree with you. Their right wing sentiments have been expressed with venom at the Grangemouth workers.
121

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 15:18:59
132

AlanB, probably but I thought that you were discussing the SNP and its right wing supporters?
122

Alan B,

30/04/2008 15:19:19
#W U Merchant "A step too far for the majority, I suspect"

I maybe we do not know. But there does seem a hugh majority in favour of significantly more powers.

It is unlikely the commission will propose any like dev max given browns intervension.

Scotland wants to take step towards independence, but may not want to go all the way. the more powers to the scottish parliament the less reasons for independence, and the less reason for not going independent.
123

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 15:21:30
Miss H

You really are an idiot of the highest order.

"You cannot demonstrate the future."

Tomorrow gravity will be equally to 9.81 ms2

We know what time the sun will set tomorrow night, we know what high tide will be next week to the minute.

If you know how the world works you can predict entirely accurately what will (or might) happen.

The bottom line is the SNP do not have a clue.

Alan B I await your answer? Can you tell me one instance, just one instance, of doing something we can't do as part of the UK?

Here is an example for your information, now can you do one you glib wee flying parcel.

An independent Scotland could surrender its independence and form a Union with neghbouring countries in Europe. (SNP policy on "independence")
124

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 15:21:41
#88 Alf

Well, for starters we could represent ourselves in EU Fishery negotiations.

Alf, you are a prize ass!
125

Alan B,

30/04/2008 15:23:24
W U Merchant

Do u not just think this tartan tory insult or red tory thing is just so immature. It just tries to distract from actually discussing the merits of different policies.

Do not think the snp are particularly right wing? What is right wing? I think they are a broad church and they need to be to try to get all of those that support indepdence voting for them. They have social democratic policies like abolishing prescription charges and more right wing lower corportation tax aspirations.

Much like most of the parties.
126

Jimmy the Pie,

30/04/2008 15:25:21
#129 GB Scot

Yes your bang on. Where would you ever get 'socialists' cutting prescription charges, looking after the elderly and the young.

You are an imbecile
127

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 15:26:55
#100 Alf

Can you clarify your post. I don't understand your reference to "...enough SNP ministers...".

On your other point, what makes you think that I hate the English? I hate Gordon Brown far more than any English person.
128

Gtj,

Dundee 30/04/2008 15:29:07
"Poll says support for Scots independence at all-time low".

I thought April Fools Day was the first day of the month.
129

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 15:33:49
139 Jackie Priest

I would call you are an idiot of the highest order but I perhaps gave that accolade away to Miss H to soon.

What makes you think the Union led to that boy drinking alcohol? More likely his parents.

What do you think of the poll result? Do you accept them.

Can you demonstrate that children wouldn't abuse alcohol in Glasgow in an independent Scotland?
130

Tynietiger,

30/04/2008 15:34:25
Story heading could have been Wendy support at all time low.

Alex Salmond’s approval ratings as First Minister were twice the proportion of Gordon Brown’s as Prime Minister - 53% to 26% - compared to negative ratings of a third to two thirds (63%) respectively.

Only 21% thought Wendy Alexander is doing a good job, compared to a massive 60% who do not.
131

Alan B,

30/04/2008 15:34:32
#136 Alfred "Can you tell me one instance, just one instance, of doing something we can't do as part of the UK?"

See u have changed ur question. Before it was what could u not do. (and gave building tunnels as an example)

It is such a daft question, as that is not the reason for indepdendence. (i also see u have been unable to answer any of the questions i posed).

The scottish parliament cannot currently do alot. it cannot structure rail and control track. They cannot control drug policy, ban firearms, control the number of days detention, id cards. Basically we do as the what the whole of the uk does. And when the tories get in at the next election we do what they want despite them have virtually not representation here. We cannot control tax and try to boost the economy.

Of course much of this could be devolved and the sp could do these things within the union.

A uk where we had a small central parliametn governing defence and foriegn policy, currency and eu membership would be a big advance. But lets not hold ur breath.

On personal levels people could live longer. die younger than most nations due to being badly run at westminster. we could avoid much of the poverty if we ran ourselves better.

if ur question is just what can u do differently like go to work and do ur hobbies then there is little if any difference. Off course a richer economy means better jobs etc. or having a job which was a struggle for many during thatcher.

but it really is a daft question as it is not the reason for independence.



132

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 15:36:57
further to #137

We could have an increased number of Scottish MEPs....
133

Alan B,

30/04/2008 15:40:54

#147 Jackie Priest

His idea of not being able to do things are posted in #79.

"Build a channel tunnel? No

Build a Sky-scraper? No

Get involved in advanced research? Less likely

Oxfords motor sport industry? Less likely"

It has nothing to do with the reason for independence but just talking rubbish as he cannot find any coherent reason for the union.
134

Alan B,

30/04/2008 15:43:14
Can any unionist agree that Alfred reasons for the union as posted in #79 about being able "Build a Sky-scraper" are actually sane.
135

FrancesP,

30/04/2008 16:03:24
"Support for independence at all-time low"

Call me cynical, but is this another example of a hysterical headline-writer who didn't want to be held back by pesky facts? I must admit I don't have the figures to hand, but I've often heard it said that at the SNP's previous peak in October 1974, support for the party was running at double the figure of support for indepedence. That would suggest support for independence must have been lower than this so-called all-time low of 19%.

And when Highland Mighty inevitably comes on later to try to somehow spin this poll as bad for the SNP, could somebody point out to him that the SNP's lead over Labour on the all-important list vote has tripled since the last YouGov poll earlier in the month - from 3% to 9%.
136

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 16:04:35
#151 alan

Having studies his post thoroughly, I can report that there is no clear evidence of sanity therein.
137

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 16:04:45
studied
138

Celtic Lion,

30/04/2008 16:06:53
Jackie Priest

"He is a unionist through and through and quite typical of that mindset."

I would disagree with that statement as the unionists I know are perfectly reasonable people, but happen to believe too much of what Labour tell them, take no interest in politics and want the status quo (so long as they don't need to know anything about it), or are simply traditional voters (many of whom don't even like the party they still choose to vote for).

However he is typical of the unionist mindset which tend to post here and at the Herald, which is a great shame.

Good post at #152 though. The human side is often ignored (or even ridiculed) in debates about the pros and cons of the union.
139

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 16:07:52
138

Alan B, at no time have I used the "Tartan Tories" description. However, I was genuinely shocked by the anti trade union and anti working class venom expressed in posts by nationalists about the Grangemouth dispute.
140

,

30/04/2008 16:08:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
141

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:10:18
159 Celtic Lion

You can take pride in being Scottish as part of the UK you know?

Or do you just not get the same fuzzy wuzzies in your tummy without a special passport.
142

unbiased,

30/04/2008 16:14:24
#161 Alfred - you have been posting on this site for the last 4 and a quarter hours - take it you don't have a job either!
143

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:16:06
164 unbiased

You are a nosey parker, student if you must know.
144

unbiased,

30/04/2008 16:17:27
Shouldn't you be doing some studying then?
145

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:17:59
163 The spook

Why does being part of the UK create unemployment?

What jobs would be created by independence?

You are another one that just talks crap.
146

Green eyed monster,

30/04/2008 16:18:15
If support for 'independence' is this low when Salmond's approval rating is so high, what will be the consequence for the seperatist movement when Salmond quits - again - and replaced by someone less politically able?
147

Celtic Lion,

30/04/2008 16:18:40
162 Alfred E. Neuman

I'm aware of that, but we could be here all day listing what we could and could not be. One doesn't even have to consider one's self as Scottish to live in Scotland and vote to leave the UK. I was defending those unionists who were attributed with the same characteristics as people such as yourself by demonstration of my own experiences, which you would have realised if you weren't so keen to try and cause offence.
148

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:20:16
166 unbiased

I am sat at a desk studying most days if you must know. Human concentration span is around 40-50 mins.

I may do a few questions and then take a break to reset that period, that means shooting the crap with a cuppa before doing a few more.

Nosey parker.
149

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:25:33
171 Spook

You talk a lot of crap. What part of being a student prevents me posting here?
150

Sanny,

30/04/2008 16:26:23
I have just read the ACTUAL results of the YOUGOV poll and I conclude that this is a disgraceful piece of manipulated news!! They have forgotten to report the bits that don’t conform to their propaganda.

Nunbers are %
Regional Voting Intention
[Scottish National Party 37
Labour 28
Liberal Democrat 13
Conservative 13
Other 9

Taking everything into account do you approve or disapprove of the Scottish
Executive’s record to date?
Approve 52
Disapprove 27
Don’t know 21

Which of the following do you think would make the best Scottish First Minister?
Alex Salmond 43
Wendy Alexander 11
Annabel Goldie 9
Nicol Stephen 5
Don’t know 31

The experience so far suggests that Scotland's Executive has been able to operate
effectively with the powers it has: it can have the best of both worlds by remaining part
of the UK 58

The experience so far suggests that Scotland is perfectly capable of governing itself and
no longer needs to remain part of the UK: it ought in due course to become formally
independent 29

Not sure 14

There is no straight forward of how Scots might vote in an Independence Referendum!
151

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:27:16
173 Methalions

I understand that is correct you idiot.

But as the nats on here never actually spot any information and instead just post glib idiot crap, I am just acknowledging that.

"Scotland would be better after independence." I mean that is meaningless p*sh.
152

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 16:28:29
174. Our apologies to all and sundry. We left Alfred unsupervised this afternoon, and after suckling on Jackie Baillie for too long a feed, he seems to have got over excited, bordering on the incoherent.

When he has been burped and calms down we will let him loose on the keyboard once more - please indulge our little prodigy!
153

brownlie,

30/04/2008 16:30:53
174 Aarf

I presume you must be a very mature student as most modern day students will not remember the magazine from which you took your name.

First class honours in tripe would probably not be out of the question, I suppose?
154

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:34:21
179 Spook

Happy Birthday (belated), you idiot.
155

MoClana,

30/04/2008 16:37:55
Nueman - you sound like Harry Enfields character 'tory boy'.
156

unbiased,

30/04/2008 16:38:23
Quote "Alfred E. Neuman. He's the freaky little kid that has appeared on almost every MAD cover..."
157

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 16:40:26
182. A hoos poos and very berero birthday hail hailing to the Spook.
158

brownlie,

30/04/2008 16:42:48
182 The Spook

Happy birth, spook, jackie sends her love!!
She's got a big crush on you!!
159

MoClana,

30/04/2008 16:43:13
Jackie Priest - did it ever corss your mind that your replying to a spotty faced 18 year old brought up in a home with pictures of Charles and Diana on the wall?

He really isnt worth it.

160

brownlie,

30/04/2008 16:43:56
182 Spook

Hasty correction - that should read Happy Birthday. Little Alf has fuddled my brain.
161

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 30/04/2008 16:47:43
#186

My we are upset today aren't we. Face facts as much as you spout off about how unionists are all idiots for not agreeing with your seperatist agenda, you are a noisy minority. I would love to see the question used by the telegraph as well as I think it is as biased in one direction as the SNPs proposed question is in the other.
162

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 16:50:37
194. I await a Unionist like Alfred explaining why Scotlands 30 year GDP growth rate is a quarter of Ireland's, half of the rate of comparable small European countries, and well behind the UKs. Must be the Union dividend.
163

MoClana,

30/04/2008 16:51:18
# 196 - 'seperist agenda ' ...its called independence, and the agenda is democracy.

You must be another one of these apparent 'nuetrals'.

Give us a break.
164

gus1940,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 16:52:15
What does anybody expdect from a poll commissioned by a Barclay Brothers' rag?
165

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 16:52:55
196. The question used by the Telegraph is in the article - and contains a strange tautology "a completely separate state outside the UK" - why the "completely" - why not just ask "should Scotland be independent"? Strange also that that question comes after the rather leading question "The experience so far suggests that Scotland's Executive has been able to operate
effectively with the powers it has: it can have the best of both worlds by remaining part
of the UK "
166

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:54:21
186 Jackie Priest

Thanks for taking some time out to talk more crap.

5 paragraphs and no less than 319 words on the importance of action above words. And without even listing one single action that is required to improve Scotland. What a feat of stupidity that post was, I applaud you for you deliberate idiocy!

Jackie, please stop talking crap and tell me one thing that the UK government does to create poverty specific to Scotland?

Then, perhaps as a second sentence in the same paragrap tell me in your opinion what action is required to solve this.

Then, perhaps as a new paragraph you could briefly say why this action cannot be taken as part of the UK.

Then perhaps as a second sentence of a second paragraph explain to us why independence would not create similair problems in other areas to the problem you want to solve.

ie Unemployment: Independence Would create more ambassoder/diplomacy jobs but lose some scientific research jobs through no UK research council funding, diplomats are more important than physicists/engineers because I get the fuzzie wuzzies from being able to visit a Scottish Embassy when in France.
167

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 16:55:01
203

Woah, Shinkronishe poeshts mish money penny.
168

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 30/04/2008 16:55:09
If there were a referendum on whether to retain the present Scottish Parliament
and Executive in more or less their present form or to establish Scotland as a
completely separate state outside the United Kingdom but inside the European
Union, how would you vote?
In favour of retaining the present Scottish Parliament 59
In favour of a completely separate state outside the UK 25
Would not vote 6
Don’t know 10
If there were a referendum and the following were the options how would you
vote?
In favour of retaining the Scottish Parliament with its existing powers 34
In favour of retaining the Scottish Parliament but giving it greater powers 38
In favour of a completely separate state outside the UK 19
Would not vote 9
169

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 30/04/2008 16:57:28
#176

How about my last post straight from the yougov website.
170

The Master,

30/04/2008 16:59:07
If I were some day to be lobotomised and become a Nat, what would concern me about this is that the SNP seems to be making progress at the expense of the Tories rather than Labour. This will bolster their vote in their Tartan Tory heartlands, such as Perth, but will make very little difference in the central belt, where the party really needs to be taking votes from Labour if it is to mount a credible challenge. Another thing that would concern me is the blindingly obvious: SNP support seems to be based on the party’s operating within the devolution settlement and has no relation to support for independence as a concept. If Scotland really were on an irreversible road to separation then there would be no dubiety about it from the opinion polls and it would make no difference whether the poll asked as straight question or offered the greater powers option. Eat your heart out, Nicola!
171

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 17:00:26
209. You could not be lobotomised, Master, as reversal of your first two lobotomies is not possible.
172

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 30/04/2008 17:01:39
#199

Yes democracy, you do not have enough votes to force a referendum and the polls do not show the overwhelming public support that may force a party to break ranks and support a referendum bill. So at the moment we have democracy in action.
173

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 17:03:36
202. ALfred

macro-economic policy of the UK frequently disadvantages Scotland. During the 90s the UK adopted a policy of high interest rates to address an inflationary credit boom. As Scotland never had an inflationary credit boom, this damaged Scottish industry and the Scottish economy. The solution is to have Scottish economic policy (monetary and fiscal) controlled in Scotland.
174

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 17:04:21
211. Polls show 65% to 80% support for a referendum.
175

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 17:12:29
216. And the SNP also won Dundee East, Dundee West, Edinburgh East etc , and are the only party with constituency representation in every Scottish city, and the largest party of Scottish local government..... The SNP represents all of Scotland and has constituency, regional and local government support which reflects that
176

,

30/04/2008 17:17:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
177

Nikostratos,

30/04/2008 17:21:01
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/scotland/1912478/Support-for-Scottish-independence-slumps.html

Asked who is to blame, 38 per cent said it was Mr Salmond's fault and agreed that he is out to cause trouble so he can persuade voters Scotland should be independent. Slightly fewer, 35 per cent, blamed London, agreeing that Labour does not care about Scotland or give the Executive enough money.

The same proportion agreed with the First Minister's claim that the Government is "bullying" Scotland, while 38 per cent opposed that statement. However, the results of both questions were skewed towards Mr Salmond by the overwhelming proportion of SNP supporters who blamed the Government.


Its the loony snp Drones mucking it up again face it droney drones your tactic of half a dozen of you spending 24/7 blogging for the snp is just..........loosing all credibility for the snp mad claims of overwhelming support.........stop trying to interfere and let the normal people have a say......


#217

don't be silly the snp represent the all snp mad supporters as do the Tories and lib Dem etc represent theirs....in fact the snp hate Scottish unionists guts so certainly they would not support them eh.......

178

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 17:21:26
218. Kimba, people do not vote on single issues in a general election - which is why a referendum is the best way to choose our constitutional future. What are Unionsts afraid of? Why do Unionists not trust the Scottish people to vote on and choose their own future?

The UK Labour and Tory and Lib Dem Parties all support referendums for some issues, recognising that a general election cannot test the voters will on all issues..... But it seems their support for referenda stops short at Scotland....
179

brownlie,

30/04/2008 17:22:33
202 Alfred.

Congrats on evading the white coats. Us unionists - to be fair to all concerned -generate poverty uk wide so as not to stir up another fight with the nats. The nats cannot claim that we have created an unfair society.
180

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 17:22:50
220. "in fact the snp hate Scottish unionists guts so certainly they would not support them eh......"

Niko, nonsense, addled and almost senile as you are, i for one am quite fond of you. I am just puzzled as why you don't trust the Scottish people to choose their own future.
181

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 30/04/2008 17:25:16
If you dig deeper into the poll (It's on the YouGov website) - do have a look at how it is weighted (link at the top of the first pdf takes you to the second pdf with this information)

or have this handy link:

http://tiny.cc/eWyKD

Now I am not saying anything...
182

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 17:26:07
220. Niko, 204 AM2

can I ask what you thought of the view of the designer of the personal care policy in Scotland saying the other day that the UK government was wrong to withdraw attendance allowance money from Scotland following the implementation of the free personal care policy? Is the SNp picking fights in asking for this money?
183

Alan B,

30/04/2008 17:26:56
#kimba

With pr u are never going to get one party getting a majority.

An interesting thing is

- if the tories stood for no sp
- labour for the status quo
- lib dems for more power
- snp for independence

if the lib dems option is the most popular then why are they not the most popular party.

The answer is many people do not vote in elections on constitutional matters as there number 1 priority. That does not mean they do not have an opinion on how we should be governed.

Also many people just vote for parties for a number of reasons. In scotland labour would win no matter what policies.

The scottish parliament is changing the face of scottish politics as it finds a separate voice from uk politics.
184

Celtic Lion,

30/04/2008 17:39:45
Good news for Wendy at last! More people are dissatisfied with Brown as prime minister (63%) than the number of people who think Wendy's doing a bad job as Scottish Labour leader (60%). That'll give her a little skip in her step for a day or so, she must be delighted! (If you turn it around it's not so good, but I think she's an optimist.)
185

brownlie,

30/04/2008 17:41:19
220 Nikos

Great post! A master-class in confused reasoning which will have the nats scratching their heads. I felt it was a mistake to mention drones as some-one might mention "If the cap fits etc etc". Either that or Highland will get the bag-pipes out.
186

,

30/04/2008 17:44:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
187

chicmac,

Angus 30/04/2008 17:52:32
The "Independence within Europe" type questions have ALWAYS been 25%-30%.

Questions asking about "Independence outside Europe" score even lower.

However "Independence Yes or No" has averaged a win for the Yes vote.

In fact the average predicted Yes vote in a referendum when a simple honest question is asked, is 54%.

There have even been polls(for the Scotsman) where the SAME respondants have been asked both types of question the 'Independence in Europe' one AND the plain 'Independence' one, and in those cases support for independence in Europe has been <30% and independence plain and simple >50%

This is basic stats.

If Europe enjoyed 50% support spread randomly across the electorate and independence enjoyed 50% support as well, then the percentage supporting BOTH would only be 25%.

Even if there were 70% support for independence and 70% support for Europe (unlikely levels for either I think you will agree) then there would only be 49% support for BOTH. (provided the supports were truly randomly spread). i.e. it would STILL fail.

Including Europe (negatively or positively) will be guaranteed to bring about a result like this and for that reason no Electoral Commission worthy of the name would ratify such a ridiculous type of question.
188

,

30/04/2008 18:01:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
189

BIG EYE,

Paisley 30/04/2008 18:05:23
Hold on,I'm getting worried, the way Unionists like AM2 are reducing the figures in support for independence it can only be a matter of days before I no longer exist in a statistical sense!

Fortunately I can get up from my computer, go outside and meet lots of people who share my support for independence. When was the last time AM2 met anyone with a pulse who supported the union?
190

Talorthane,

30/04/2008 18:06:57
Here's the report.

http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/results%2008%2004%2028%20scotland.pdf

I think the very last piece of the report tells you everything you need to know about it.

Political Party Identification

Lab 475
Con 159
Lib Dem 71
Other 206
None 240
Don't know 24



191

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 18:15:58
235. Do tell, AM2, what the sample size of 18-24 year olds was, and why you think that a statistically sound sample to draw your conclusion about that groups' voting intentions?
192

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 18:19:24
239. AM2. Dear, dear - what a fundamentalist you are.

so when the independent arhcitect of the free personal care for the elderly policy and Henry McCleish say Westminster was wrong to remove attendance allowance from Scotland, the SNP are picking fights for asking for that money back?
193

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 18:20:30
235. Is it wise, AM2, to conclude from a sample of <200 what this group thinks?
194

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 18:29:26
256. AM2, so you agree that your posts above which pontificate on the voting and political thinking of 18-24 years olds are mince. Good.

195

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 18:34:37
257 Jackie Priest

Thanks for taking some time to talk more crap.

Your problem relates to labour, not to the union. Labour politicians can get elected in an independent Scotland too.

You are an idiot.
196

Publius,

London 30/04/2008 18:42:20

#260 Yougov (run by Peter Kellner) is a topnotch political polling organisation. You may not like its findings. They may even be wrong, but there is no way in which they would deliberately deliver farcical results to the Telegraph or anyone else. If you want to look at the results in detail, here is the address:

http://www.yougov.com/extranets/ygarchives/content/pdf/08%2004%2028%20scotland%20topline.pdf

P.S. Emu belonged to Rod Hull (not Hudd) who fell off his roof fixing the TV aerial. Looking at some of your posts I wonder if you've fallen off your trolley.
197

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 18:42:21
261. Alfred

many thanks for your thoughts on why Scotland's GDP growth over the last 30 years is half that of other small European countries, a quarter of Ireland's and well behind the UK.

198

Andrew Allan,

30/04/2008 18:42:46
Fear 101, make people pee in their pants and there will be a level of draw back. I would say just watch this space, between one month or one year from now and the number of people supporting independence will be 52% plus.
199

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 18:47:52
263. AM2

I must be mistaken then. I am sure I saw your posts above drawing conclusions on the current voting and political thinking of 18-24 year olds based on this poll? Was it a someone faking you? I ask because you have often, repeatedly and with zeal derided people for drawing conclusions from polls with small sample sizes, and given the sample size for the 18-24 year old group in this poll is tiny, you wouldn't suddenly reverse your advice and be seen above drawing conclusions, would you?

Odd too that the poll is weighted toward Labour favourable and Express/ Mail readers outwith their prevalence in Scotland is it not?
200

Queen D,

Glasgow 30/04/2008 18:49:39
Having read the Torygraph article by Simon Heffer, savaging Boris the day before the mayoral election, I would trust the newspapers unbiased view almost as much as the Scotsmans.
Add to that the delightful Allan Cochrane and his boss who is sitting in on the little confabulation behind closed doors discussing Scotlands future,whats not to trust Eh?
If anybody cuts and pastes another bloody poll I may be forced to attack!
Some pillock said that the Scotsman did not print the only poll I have ever taken part in because it had been drenched in SNP support drummed up by activists.
Noone has ever printed the so called proof of this , so what the pillock said is only conjecture on his part.
Unless of course he is a Scotsman plant!
So Scotsman , the e-mail if you please or the poll results!
201

chicmac,

Greenock 30/04/2008 18:50:27
#237 AM" said
"Nonsense. An ICM/Scotsman poll in late 2006 indicated 52% support for independence. It was a freak result. Look at the list of more recent single-option polls in #204."

OK I looked at #204 and you counted today's poll, with its ridiculous 'Independence in Europe' option on your 'single option' list. :)

For those who are interested, check the 20 or so polls on the single issue of independence since the advent of devolution on the site below which shows an average predicted Yes vote in a referendum of 54%.

http://www.independence1st.com/content/polls.shtml

There have been a half dozen or so since then as well with similar results.

Don't fall for the multi-option, multi-issue nonsense

202

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 18:55:11
The above poll was taken from two selections, as following,

THE YOUNG CONSERVATIVES JEDBURGH BRANCH

and

THE TEA ROOM OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS

In the conducting of this poll great care was taken to ensure the sun was shining.
203

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 18:57:44
277. AM2. Are you saying that the period August 2007 to April 2008 establishes "Long established trends"?

Odd.

204

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 18:58:33
AM2 Sir,
Your tenacity with figures is above and beyond the call,I really think you should phone Darling he could use your magic with statistics
205

,

30/04/2008 19:01:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
206

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 19:02:59
Ayrshire Scot

You're full of crap so I just ignored you.

Only an idiot like you would say all small things are the same. It's such a stupid proposition.

Full of it!
207

A Voice From Scotland,

30/04/2008 19:04:00

ONE I MADE EARLIER LOL. FACT....


50
A Voice From Scotland,
30/04/2008 16:13:05
What has happened to Highland Nighty and her shadow AM2/ British Pride/ English Voice/ etc.etc.etc. and the unionist platoon. Normally they would be all over a grubby wee article like this like a pox rash, gloating and sneering and spinning away.

Can it be that they have been so humiliated by there blundering and fumbling, that they dare not show there face?

Has The North Britisher finally bitten the bullet of plummeting monthly sales and binned there seeded troll agitators.?

Has unionism finally accepted they are not the mainstream and they need to change to have a chance in the future?

Do they now accept that despite all there propaganda, all their 24/7 manic posting and lying, that it has all been for nothing, and that on this anniversary week of the greatest event in Scottish politics for 300 years, we have finally emerged from a long dark tunnel into the bright shining light of freedom for our nation?

Will those who promised to leave please do so?

Will those who promised to extract their own nails please do so and post it on You Tube.

God bless the SNP.
208

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:04:58
I wonder what the figures will bring at the next election for the Labour Party within their heartlands, I for one cannot wait.
It will surely be political obliteration, with maybe even the 'Newsreader' loosing his deposit
209

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 19:05:29
Birds have two legs and Scotsmen have two legs, we don't have beaks in the union do we.

INDEPENDENCE NOW FROM THE BEAK THIEVES!

A BEAK FOR EVERY MAN WOMAN AND CHILD IN A FREE SCOTLAND
210

Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 19:08:56
251
Meths
George Foulkes knows.Something to do with a fountaining youth.Something like that anyway.
211

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:09:41
Surely the end of the New Labour experiment,
you get away with hoodwinking the electorate for only a while then -Bang- and bye George it's a coming!
212

brownlie,

30/04/2008 19:10:44
288 Alfred E.

Reading this compelling, coherent and comprehensive posting I just wonder why not more people fall for our unionist views.

Take a lesson from Highland and concentrate on the polls.
213

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 19:11:32
285. Alfred - should I interpret your post 285 as part of your "just ignoring me"?

214

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:13:35
289 Conan,

Yup sirree, Georges' secret that little blue labeled bottle at the end of the Lords' bar shelf entitled--

'Bruichladdich 30'
215

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 19:14:50
291 Brownlie

It'll be hard for you to perform analogy as your level of intelect is short of an apes.

Ayrshire Scot was spouting some crap about all small things are naturally the same and any difference can be explained by not being independent.

So I posted about how everything with two legs is naturally the same and any difference is down to not being independent.

I'm glad you found it stupid, that is the point. By substituting words and concepts you can understand (international politics/economics are too hard for stupid SNP voters) such as bird, beak and man, it should be possible to give you ate least a glimpse into your demented minds.
216

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:15:10
Methinks he better stock up at home, for the political wilderness!
217

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 19:15:44
292 Ayrshire

No, sorry, I wasn't clear at all. I am ignoring all that crap about every small things being the same.

Not ignoring you personally.
218

,

30/04/2008 19:17:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
219

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:17:45
Will the 'Newsreader' write any more books on the history of Socialism when he leaves No.10, and indeed he might even include himself?????
220

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 19:19:48
296. Imagine my excitement.

Any thoughts on why Scotland's GDP lags behind other countrie's?

Any thoughts on UK macro-economic policy damaging Scotland?

Any thoughts?

221

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:19:55
I cannot remember such excitement since 1707!!!!
222

Linda,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 19:19:55
How about this bit of the poll

Who would make the best Scottish First Minister?



Alex Salmond
43%

Wendy Alexander
11%

Annabel Goldie
9%

Nicol Stephen
5%

223

 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 19:20:34
.
224

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 30/04/2008 19:20:37
"By substituting words and concepts you can understand (international politics/economics are too hard for stupid SNP voters) such as bird, beak and man"

Alfred, stick to telling us as it is - we'll understand. Bullsh1t baffles brains you know.
225

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:20:52
1606 is neither here nor there!
226

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:22:29
Linda,


Thats pretty unfair of you, you know, Nicol was stuck upon the BYPASS at the time.
227

glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:23:33
POOR WEE NICOL!!
228

subrosa,

30/04/2008 19:23:34
Happy Birthday Spook. What made me think you were a senior citizen... I don't remember :)

It's the form of the question that shapes the answer. Just like this poll. 'Best of both worlds' indeed! Which two worlds are they - England and London?
229

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 19:24:04
Ayrseshire Scot

Glasgow

It doesn't

Occasionally
230

Linda,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 19:24:19
As said before the political affiliations of the YouGov responants makes interesting reading..
http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/results%2008%2004%2028%20scotland.pdf

I think the very last piece of the report tells you everything you need to know about it.

Political Party Identification

Lab 475
Con 159
Lib Dem 71
Other 206
None 240
Don't know 24
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:25:53
Nicol says,

RETURN TO YOUR CONSTITUENCIES AND PREPARE FOR BYPASS'S
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30/04/2008 19:26:03
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 Ayrshire Scot™,

30/04/2008 19:28:39
308/ Aflred

during the 1990s the UK had a high interest rate policy to address and inflationary boom. Scotland had no such problem. This was damaging to the Scottish economy.

Rather than say "it doesn't" would you care to address real points?

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SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 30/04/2008 19:29:04
309 Exactly. Weighting can be used to get any result you desire. Going by those figures, it's clear what the desire was.

YouGov? An opt in poll where all you need is an email address... now where have I heard that before????
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:29:38
Wee David is really worried for wee Nicol,and Nicol is worried for both of them.

The life of the Liberal Party in 'Wee' land.
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:32:57
Is it not incredible that the Party that fought so hard for so long upon proportional representation and inclusive governance, now we have arrived, can do nothing but tack its faded colours to the depraved institution of Nu/Labour, incredible
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:34:58
Liberal life in modern Scotland

One brain cell between 10,000.
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:36:17
Mind you Loyd George and Blair I think might have had similar qualities
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:38:59
Where have all the gentlemen gone in politics, you know the likes of Jeremy Thorpe and such????
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30/04/2008 19:40:17
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:41:07
Say what you like about dear old Jeremy Thorpe, but at least he had the decency when intoxicated not to beat up old women and attack Police Officers in the course of their duty.
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:43:08
And I don't think Jeremy even aspired to the rank of Peer, then again they were probably not for sale in those days
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30/04/2008 19:44:13
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Nikostratos,

30/04/2008 19:45:16
Well I'll say this to the snp drones....... yougov have made certain predictions on the result of the boris and ken show in the London mayoral election............so for once we will not have wait long to see how accurate their polling is and if they are reliable.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/polls

its in the guardian probably a bit to upmarket for you lot

#302

Not like you ayrshire to have nothing to say

#301

still hasn't reached the same approval rating as Donald Dewar has he ?
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:45:19
Yes its the sunset of NU/Socialim,
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Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 19:45:33
319 Janis

You won the bet! 20p or a lettuce leaf was it?

Your obvious getting very angry if your resorting to this.

Please don't write to me again.
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30/04/2008 19:49:16
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glassbenmhor,

30/04/2008 19:49:37
323 Nikostratusphere,

are you referring to the 'Green Man' at the end of Buchanan Street?

I remember his expression on his face after the devolution result----total shock-----that the people wanted Tax raising powers as well, quite the shocker for Donald Boy
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30/04/2008 19:53:29
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Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 19:54:25
326 Janis

What part of please don't write to me again don't you understand?

I only acknowledged your pathetic attempt at humour/bullying because my girlfriend was sat in my lap and she bet me 50p you weren't so pathetic as to try a second time.

Well, I won 50p! Hurrah.

I actually think your tired and aging repertoire is getting dull and tired. Your grasp of logic non-wexistent and your posts have to rank as the most ill-informed collective of glib rubbish I have ever read.
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30/04/2008 19:56:59
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chicmac,

Angus 30/04/2008 20:18:56

#272 AM2 said

"Why are you according credence to Independence 1st's attempt to assign some of the "don't knows" and/or "would not votes" to supporting independence?"

The polls in question are at:-

http://www.independence1st.com/content/polls.shtml

Please note AM2 is objecting to the fact that not all Dont Knows are being counted as No votes.

Hardly surprising given the lack of balance in his other posts.

Any rational psephologist, in the lack of other information, will assume that the DKs will split along similar lines to those who have indicated a preference.

In practice, the percentage of non-respondants is always lower in a poll than the percentage who do not vote. we can safely assume that not only will nearly all the DKs not bother but probably another 25% or so will not vote either.

So the real thing to try to guess, is how that extra electorate loss, the difference between DKs and non voters, will split.

However, again, given a lack of further information, the only rational approach is to assume it will split similarly to the poll respondants.

AM2 said:
"Why do you think that their[IF's] selection of polls dating as far back as 1998 is more indicative than my exhaustive list of the two main types of polls over the past twelve months?

Your 'exhaustive list' contains 'independence in Europe' and other invalid types of referendum questions.
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someone with a brain,

30/04/2008 20:22:46
This is a poor poll, its findings contradict themselves by showing such overwhelming support for the SNP yet lower support for independence, it is also dramatically out of line with all other recent polls. It was commissioned by a london based tory newspaper and in the telegraphs article it makes no mention of the surveyed population group. It could have been 45 people in Lincon for all it tells us. A worthless poll and a poor piece of jounralism.
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30/04/2008 20:34:33
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Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 20:39:49
333 Ayrshire Scot

Oh dear, back to faking people because your silly little bullying tactics failed.

Another promising thread killed off because of the sheer boredom you create.
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30/04/2008 20:42:17
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30/04/2008 20:44:12
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30/04/2008 20:45:10
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brownlie,

30/04/2008 20:47:44
294 Alfred

Are you sure you are a student? I take it you are not up on linguistics. You can draw an analogy - you cannot perform an analogy.

Perhaps to avoid confusion you should point out that you are trying to be funny because your rant on that occasion made just as much sense as all your other tedious contributions and insults.
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30/04/2008 20:48:50
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30/04/2008 21:02:04
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30/04/2008 21:08:04
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someone with a brain,

30/04/2008 21:09:14
Stop this stupid bickering and use this forum for imformed civilized debate
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Nikostratos,

30/04/2008 21:11:13
#341

I've got one ha ah ah....well me wife has.........
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30/04/2008 21:14:40
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Brian M,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 21:15:31
and England and Wales should be independent as well.

Norn Ireland should also become part of the greater country that would be Ireland.
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30/04/2008 21:19:08
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30/04/2008 21:21:35
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30/04/2008 21:35:47
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30/04/2008 21:41:24
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30/04/2008 21:43:06
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 21:45:54
You're studying the "Justice Society of America"?

Along with MAD, that's a lot of comics.
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30/04/2008 21:47:41
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Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 30/04/2008 21:52:02
Alfie, when do you study given you are on the Scotsman night and day?

At least you are here when the polls are favourable or not.

I see our friend Grahamski popped up on this thread. He wasn't around when the 41% poll was announced last month. Just a fair-weather unionist. Oh, silly me though, I don't believe the Johnston press ran an article on that poll. Why would I be thinking they did?
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30/04/2008 21:53:12
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 21:53:17
358
Ah. I miss his reasoned debate, and charming wit.
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30/04/2008 21:56:19
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 21:58:04
359
Andrew
Fair weather unionism? That would be too organised for an Anarcho-syndicalist.
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 21:59:48
362
You called me an idiot twice in two posts!You ARE Highland Mighty!
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30/04/2008 22:06:05
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30/04/2008 22:08:01
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 22:09:48
366
Evening Meths not too cheap a plonk I hope.

I've got some rather good Polish beer I received as a gift:-)
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 22:10:30
368
The bar?
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30/04/2008 22:12:33
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30/04/2008 22:17:11
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indune1,

Canada 30/04/2008 22:18:10


The Blues are in.

370 - I think your main concern should be that you are not being faked at and banned from the bar.

Ninny? I'd ban you for using such a term.

Evening Conan and Meths!
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30/04/2008 22:18:31
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indune1,

30/04/2008 22:19:11
374 meant for 372.
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 22:24:54
Evening Dunnie.
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indune1,

Canada 30/04/2008 22:27:39
Polish beer? What name/label?
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 22:32:27
378
Tyskie 5.6% vol.
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indune1,

Canada 30/04/2008 22:34:57


Hmm. 5.6%, Could prove to be memorable.
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indune1,

Canada 30/04/2008 22:35:58

Meths - At least you cannot accuse me of coitus interruptus!!
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 22:39:04
382
And me working the morn too;-)

Supper now, be back in a bit.
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Rod,

Kirkliston - European Village Jewel 30/04/2008 22:51:42
My my, a lot of debate over a poll.
I would imagine that all right thinking people would do as I do when being polled and tell the most outrageous whoppers. It's the right thing to do!
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 23:01:19
385
Good Evening Rod.Still driving for that aristo in EH1?
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Rod,

Kirkliston - European Village Jewel 30/04/2008 23:14:40
386 Still driving for that aristo in EH1?

Indeed yes although I am more a PA than driver. His wife recently purchased a Hummer. It so enraged the eco warriors that he has been negotiating a trade-in on the BMW 4x4 with a view to his own Hummer in order to annoy them further. His wife says the Hummer will be ideally suited for the annual beagling bash on Stinky Sievewright's estate in Sutherland.
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Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

30/04/2008 23:32:39
Looks like independence is as far away as ever.

Superb
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 23:36:11
388
Rhodophthalmokytodermogammarus cinnamomeus to you.

Excellent
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Conan the Librarian™,

30/04/2008 23:54:12
387
Sorry Rod, was distracted by 388.
Yes a Hummer is ideal for hunting.It is sturdy enough to mount a .50 caliber, or even a Mk 19 grenade launcher.
301

indune1,

Canada 01/05/2008 00:08:43

Come now Conan, surely twin 20mm Oerlikons?
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Conan the Librarian™,

01/05/2008 00:13:49
391
They are not after grouse Dunnie.
303

indune1,

01/05/2008 00:49:13
What in Scotland could not be brought down by 20mm Oerlikons? Bendy Wendy? Gordon Broon?
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Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 01/05/2008 00:57:35
Do we seriously think that the Scottish public can be so shallow as to change their minds en masse and drop from 40/41% to 19% in one week?

Wishful thinking by the Unionists. Disinformation is a major weapon in any war. The 21st century war of Independence is no different.



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Conan the Librarian™,

01/05/2008 00:59:45
393
George Foulkes.You will need a guided little old lady.
306

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01/05/2008 01:13:33
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indune1,

01/05/2008 01:42:10
395 - Conan - As opposed to a misguided big one.
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A Reasonable Voice,

01/05/2008 02:32:21
One poll says support for Scottish independence is less than 20% and another says it's more than 40%. What this really means is that support for Scottish independence is somewhere at about 1/3 of the population.

Increased support for the SNP does not necessarily equate for increased support for independence. What it means is that the SNP has an agenda for the Scottish Parliament that the people think will benefit them the most. The voters can still vote Unionist at the national election, but vote SNP for the Scottish Parliament to make sure that Scotland gets the best deal.

Having lived in America for a long time, I see this happen between state elections and national elections. People will vote for one party in state government, but another for national government. The same can certainly happen in the devolved administrations in the UK--and hopefully in an English parliament.

The UK needs to federalise its political structure, and we need to see more proportional representation. If Labour and Tories were forced to join coalitions in Westminster, we might not see those outside of London (England included!) get the shaft.
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Yankee girl,

USA 01/05/2008 04:32:40
397 - Och, is it you, Dunnie lad?
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scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Tram City 01/05/2008 07:33:52
we're doomed i tel you.Alex is making Scotland a better place to live in,and he is doing it deliberatly.Ask Lord hic Foulkes
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Truely English,

01/05/2008 08:46:23
How can opinion polls be taken seriosly when they are so wildly different. For a peiod their I thought the Scots had really let the Union down but it is now clear that our shared English language, culture and values really win out.
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Highland Mighty,

01/05/2008 09:37:29
Oh dear! So the 41% TNS poll yet again stands alone compared to all the other polls.

What a surprise.

I'll just add it to the list...remove the clearly duff polls that are not corroborated anywhere else....

TWO-option polls (Independence - for or against):
YouGov Apr 08…For: 25% - Against: 59%
YouGov Jan 08…For: 27% - Against: 57%
YouGov Apr 07…For: 25% - Against: 53%
YouGov Mar 07..For: 28% - Against: 51%
YouGov Nov 06..For: 31% - Against: 50%
ICM Oct 06..For: 39% - Against: 51%
YouGov Sep 06..For: 44% - Against: 42%
So support for independence has fallen from 44% to 25% in the last two years!
And support for staying in the UK has risen from 42% to 59% in the same period!

MULTI-option polls (Independence - More Devolution - Status Quo - Scrap Devolution):
YouGov Apr 08…Ind: 19% - More Dev: 38% - Status Quo: 34% - Scrap Dev: ??
MRUK Mar 08.....Ind: 23% - More Dev: 45% - Status Quo: 22% - Scrap Dev: 6%
YouGov Aug 07...Ind: 23% - More Dev: 39% - Status Quo: 20% - Scrap Dev: 9%
YouGov Apr 07…Ind: 26% - More Dev: 37% - Status Quo: 17% - Scrap Dev: 12%
SSAS 2007……..Ind: 23% - More Dev: 55% - Status Quo: 8% - Scrap Dev: 10%
SSAS 2006……..Ind: 30% - More Dev: n/a - Status Quo: n/a - Scrap Dev: n/a
SSAS 2005……..Ind: 34% - More Dev: 37% - Status Quo: 7% - Scrap Dev: 14%
19% = the lowest yet! Agent Salmond is indeed earning his OBE.

And the SNP's lead is also continuing to plummet!
Nov 07 - 11% ahead of Labour
Jan 08 - 9% ahead
Mar 08 - 7% ahead
Apr 08 - just 5% ahead now!

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!
313

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 01/05/2008 09:40:27
#398 Your averaging of the twp polls is flawed because the Telegraph/Yougov poll is flawed.

It beats me why an organisation as respected as Yougov would produce such loaded questions. I wonder if they actually had them written for them and they simply did the field work.
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donald,

glasgow 01/05/2008 10:23:49
Telegraph Poll
315

indune1,

01/05/2008 21:31:04

399 - Yankee Girl! Aye, it was me.
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Yankee girl,

USA 01/05/2008 21:58:38
407 - Hey, Dunnie. How ya been?
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indune1,

01/05/2008 22:42:41
Well, well, what a pleasant surprise!

Have been really busy lately.

For some still unknown reason my old moniker was banned. Can't think of why since I've been a good boy and haven't done anything naughty.

How are you?
318

Yankee girl,

USA 01/05/2008 23:16:22
Been really busy myself. Haven't visited the threads much lately. Had one encounter with a "non-friend" recenntly that made me feel unwelcome, but I still enjoy the old crowd in here.

Conan hinted that you had changed your moniker to an anagram, so I've been on the lookout. My decoder ring didn't help much, though! ;)
319

indune1,

01/05/2008 23:50:41
So missed Yankee Girl - Stick with the old crowd: they are tried, tested and true.

Don't be put off by the eejits that abound on the threads.

Yes, had to change my moniker. It was really weird. Couldn't post for two weeks. Rather embarassing after my assertion that I never posted under another moniker.

Sorry about that. It's true, regardless how it may appear. Just hope you believe that.

Have missed your reasoned commentary and objective viewpoints.

Just hope the Chardonnay hasn't gobe flat and the black lace turned to flannel.

Wramest wishes, Dunnie.

320

indune1,

01/05/2008 23:51:55
Gobe flat? Wramest wishes? Chri*st on a bike, I'm tired.
321

Yankee girl,

USA 02/05/2008 00:47:01
LOL!! At least you spelled black lace and flannel right, although the mental picture is a little disturbing!

I felt oddly bereft when I came on the thread and knew you weren't here! So glad you're still around, regardless of your new secret identity. As for the eejits, well, they seem to be growing in number, which is too bad. The Scots on here are usually so respectful and witty that when I encounter the opposite I'm at a loss.

Anyway, I'm off to find some Chardonnay - hasn't gone flat yet!
322

indune1,

02/05/2008 00:56:25

Yankee lass - good to hear. Test drive the Chardonnay.

Hope the black lace is still under wraps!!!

Hugs and kisses, Dunnie.
323

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 14/05/2008 14:34:24
#312 Ayrshire Scot

Oh no! Not intrest-rates last century, again! Are you attempting to advance your agenda by making your opponents loose the will to live?

 

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