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SNP 'is open to idea' of state schools for Muslims

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Published Date: 11 July 2007
THE SNP government has signalled it is willing to consider having separate Muslim state schools in Scotland.
A spokesman for Education Secretary Fiona Hyslop said ministers were "open" to proposals about such a move.

But critics claimed it could be storing up problems for the future.

The latest development in the debate follows comments by SNP leade
r Alex Salmond during the Holyrood election campaign earlier this year, when he said it was important to listen to representations from the Muslim community and "make a full assessment of the demand for Muslim schools".

He continued: "I think we need honest criteria agreed and, if there is sustainable demand from within the community, move ahead with a pilot project."

In a weekend television debate, SNP Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said she was "not persuaded" of the case for Muslim schools but said a pilot study could be a way forward.

But now Ms Hyslop's spokesman appears to have indicated a more sympathetic stance.

Osama Saeed, a leading campaigner for Islamic schools in Scotland, said many Muslims wanted "some congruity between their home life and school life".

But he added: "These schools will follow the national curriculum. It won't be a case of pupils learning the Koran all day."

However, Charles Douglas, convener of the Humanist Society of Scotland, said the move could hinder the integration of Muslims.



Page 1 of 1

 
1

S Hamilton,

Embra 11/07/2007 11:23:03

Why are these gibbering idiots allowed out in public.

Back in the old days we could lock them up in asylums and throw fruit at them once a month.

Now we elect them to govern.

Why don't we just have special interest schools for every religion recognised under the census. Gits.

2

chico,

Edinburgh 11/07/2007 11:54:52

And this is how we integrate people into our society?
Schools should be for all religions. There should be no differences.
Perhaps if all children learned how to respect each other without all the religious nonsense the world would be a better place. Religion should be kept out of schools altogether.
This is the UK and if people want to live here then they obviously want to live our way or do they?
Perhaps some wish the UK was a muslim state and perhaps it should be made clear to them that it is not and never will be.

3

FedUpTaxPayer,

11/07/2007 11:55:18

with you #2

Separate schools just seem like a place to keep bigotry and discrimination alive and well, and have it indoctrinated from a young age. Exactly what we do not need. Let’s keep religious instruction(not education) out of schools.

4

Dibs,

11/07/2007 12:15:29

The SNP should be concentrating on giving every child in Scotland access to a decent education irrespective of their faith.

With everything we have heard over the last few years about integration into British society we now have a party that wants to divide education up to make sure that these children have no contact with other faiths.

Brilliant!

5

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 11/07/2007 12:29:54

The survival of Catholic schools owes a lot to the fact that despite being almost completely integrated within society Catholics still see themselves as being under some level of threat. The large amount of Orange lodges and Orange parades proves that this threat is not imaginary.

The Act of Settlement with its various bigoted clauses also gives the impression that discrimination against Catholicism is institutional and until this is removed or adjusted that is actually the case.

There are also other shady groups like the Masons who deliberately exclude Catholics from their membership and which have an insiduous influence within society.

The constant requests from the Orange lodges for Catholic schools to be closed actually guarantees their continued existence. They are also guaranteed under law because the Catholic church used to run their own schools themselves and their right to have seperate schooling is enshrined in the legislation which set up comprehensive education.

Catholic shools will continue until Catholics feel they are 100% integrated. This has almost happened but given the above factors has not actually quite completed as yet.

If Muslim schools are introduced it will be done for progressive positive reasons. However it might prove to be a backward step eventually that will cause even more problems because it will indicate that a further group feels under threat from the community at large, which is a great pity.

This would be unfortunate but cultural divisions between Muslims and 'Christians' (in fact most people are not genuinely interested in religion at all) are already exacerbated by a divisive foreign policy by the British Government and various attempts like citizens ceremonies to push a false British identity upon us all. We should be asking why Muslims feel the current system does not suit them.

In Scotland we seem to historically have had a mature approach which is based on respecting the r

6

Brian S,

LONDON 11/07/2007 12:31:57

Oh dear this is going to be the first SNP policy I will find fault with.

Integration is what we need, not the opposite.

7

Busymale,

11/07/2007 12:32:37

A breeding ground for the next bombers

8

Merouane,

Edinburgh 11/07/2007 12:49:04

Agree with most of the posts here, this will only serve to keep communities separate. Children should be educated together regardless of religion.

I do think there needs to be consistency though. You can't allow RC and Jewish schools and not allow Muslim schools. There is also a legitimate concern among non-protestant parents that some non-denominational schools are not as non-denominational as they should be.

9

Farky,

Edinburgh 11/07/2007 12:49:35

Not a policy I'd ever support. We are creating communites within communites!

10

The Man Who Knows,

Republic of Perth 11/07/2007 12:49:37

This would be a mistake.

11

oder,

Scotland 11/07/2007 12:59:17

yes we had back and white schools in South Africa
where not only colour, but eighteen different languages as well it was called "Aparthied"
and the world condemned it as wrong
but is it now OK because an ethnic minority what it ?
we should not pander to an ethnic minority over the majority, say no to Aparthied education.

12

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

Newington 11/07/2007 13:04:45

We should keep superstition out of the schools, and ideally out of the minds of children altogether.

13

James Moore,

11/07/2007 13:19:24

At long last the SNP mask is starting to slip!

Obviously wanting to turn Scotland into an Islamic State!

Wake up everyone!

14

SunShine,

11/07/2007 13:38:35

Its no surprise to me.

Since the attempted Glasgow bombings, Salmond and Macaskill seem to have spent there time visiting Mosques.

Maybe they should rename the party SMP?

15

,

11/07/2007 13:42:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 776889, Article id was mapped to record!
16

James Moore,

11/07/2007 13:46:34

In fact i'll say it now,

I have no time for muslims within the UK!

No matter what is given and provided for this section of the population, they are intent of giving back nothing in return!

They do integrate at all!

17

James Moore,

11/07/2007 13:47:46

They do not integrate at all!

18

Masque,

11/07/2007 14:00:29

No to Muslim schools, Catholic Schools, Protestant Schools, Jewish Schools, Hindu Schools, Rudolf Steiner Schools et al ....

Integration is the ONLY way forward.

Besides don't ALL kids get Sikh of school anyway??

19

James Moore,

11/07/2007 14:01:57

When all Scots finally wake up and stop the anti english ranting/abuse!

I would rather have an Englishman for a friend rather than a muslim!

20

Joseph Lyon,

Glasgow 11/07/2007 14:17:41

Personally i think people who are opposing state funded Muslim schools (with exception to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx i won't even bother addresing) aren't addressing the reality of our situation in Scotland.

As many have expressed on a principle of fairness, if there is a demand for it from parents, there must be state funded Muslim schools as there are Jewish, Catholic, Episcopalian schools among others.

The argument that faith school foster sectarianism amongst communnities is unproven and in my opinion a load of rubbish. Those going to a school with a religious ethos are more likely to be taught about values of tolerance (turning the other cheek) than those who do not. If you want to know where sectarianism is fostered go to Parkhead/Ibrox on a saturday afternoon or join an Orange parade.

By having a state funded school could give us the opportunity to take radicalisation away from extreme elements in the Muslim community. If the state control the message that goes out and it gves a moderate (correct) message of Ilslam this will help children from an early age to recognise the extremist crap straight away.

Lets face it politicians are never going to scrap all faith schools (and why should they when they constantly achieve higher than non denominational ones?) so it seems only fairness to allow a Muslim school IF there is demand for it.

However, saying all this i do think there should be a quote on all faith school that they must have a minimum % of either different or non-faith pupils at the school (admittedly prob difficult to implement)

21

,

11/07/2007 14:20:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 777035, Article id was mapped to record!
22

Talorthane,

11/07/2007 14:22:44

I think they might just be using this as a way to open up the debate.

If we have Catholic schools, would it not be unfair to deny other significant religious groups to have the same?

Of course this debate cannot fail to focus on why, in a secular society, we have Catholic only schools.

The only fair solutions would be to have each significant faith entitled to its own schools, or for all schools to be equal and non-denomenational.

23

James Moore,

11/07/2007 14:24:05

So much for free speech!

24

MS,

11/07/2007 14:55:15

Interesting. Just as I read this, I got an email from a friend in England. Is the backlash under way ?

Makes you wonder if Australia's got the right idea ?

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia : one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nati

25

Sedov,

Scotland 11/07/2007 14:55:55

No, no, no SNP - this is not the way to unite people. But then the SNP are natural seperatists.

26

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

Newington 11/07/2007 15:15:42

#26: Joseph Lyon argues that we should be fair to all religions. I ask whether he's ready to accept Wiccan schools? Moonies Schools? Satanist schools?

If we're to have real equality then fine, just so long as schools which encourage superstition are self-financing and don't receive a penny of taxpayers' money.

27

James Moore,

11/07/2007 15:30:21

Sorry everyone, but the UK is not an islamic state! Why should there be islamic schools provided for such a small section of the population!

What about so called community integration?

This problem/issue has been brewing for years and i believe it has now come to surface!

We have the follow the Australian lead and dictate to them rather than them dictating to us!

28

James Moore,

11/07/2007 15:56:29

#34

I wasn't happy when you called me a racist, which i am not! Calling someone a racist when that person simply questions an issue is used too much nowadays!

Yes i have been a bit strong with my language and views but i am not going to hide my views!

So i am not making apologies for what i have stated to date!

29

James Moore,

11/07/2007 16:00:52

My concern is that we have politicans in govt, be it in the UK govt and also the Scottish Executive appeasing the minorities!

All i have read to date, is visits and meeting being made by various MPs and MSPs visiting various muslim groups around the UK!

What about the rest of us? Do we exist?

Are the govts of the day being financed secretly by minority groups?

30

James Moore,

11/07/2007 16:02:32

#34

My apologies! I thought you were #26

31

Merouane,

Edinburgh 11/07/2007 16:10:04

#34. James, you said you'd rather be friends with an Englishman than a Muslim. Forgetting the point that you can be both English and Muslim, you are making assumptions about someone purely on the basis of their race and religion.

32

Dave B,

Edinburgh 11/07/2007 16:30:39

This is a ridiculous idea, and could be a major vote loser for the party, well outweighing the few extra muslim votes the party could gain.

I hope the SNP doesn't follow through to pander to a vocal minority.

Any modern country should be working towards getting rid of the anachronism of all religious schools.

33

James Moore,

11/07/2007 16:32:39

#40

You believe that there are English Muslims, Scottish Muslims and British Muslims!

Sorry i don't!

A muslim will always state their identity first as a muslim before stating nationality even if they do!

Which i doubt!

34

MS,

11/07/2007 16:44:06

"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

Sorry. I was in a hurry and didn't realise the email had been truncated when I posted it.

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society .. Learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,

'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

35

sapphire_1996,

sheffield 11/07/2007 16:53:24

The governments of Scotland, England and Wales should spend their money on supporting integration not isolation. if schools made Muslim students (or any other faith with particular needs) welcome and part of the fabric of the school then the parents would not need to put them in special schools. if the school is truly inclusive, everyone's needs will be met and everyone's education will improve as a result.

36

MacIan,

11/07/2007 17:08:53

Nationalist, SNP to the core. But don't agree with this idea. This is (going to be) a western secular democracy. Religion is personal and private, and should never hinder integration. If these people want an islamic way of life there are many options elsewhere.

No to religion in schools. If this idea were to fly why would I vote for independence for a country that is no longer my country? The choice, Mr. Salmond is the end of Scotland (unionism) or a renewal of Scotland ( freedom). No point if we are to give it away to yet another theocracy.

37

Sanny,

11/07/2007 17:29:22

There seems to be a large number of posters on here who feel as I do. The introduction of Islamic State Schools would be a huge mistake. I say this not because I am opposed per se to Islam, but because I strongly feel this will increase and worsen the divide between the Moslems and the rest of the comunity. The difference between the cultures is vast and people fear what they do not understand. We could in the future have a situation that will make the ‘Irish Troubles’ seem like a playground squabble.
In my opinion there should be no State or Private Faith Schools of any persuasion. Nor should religious philosophy be part of the school curriculum. Religion can be taught at home, church, chapel, synagogue, or mosque.

If you feel as I do, then I suggest you follow my example and write to the SNP at:
snp.hq@snp.org
And also write to your MP.

38

MacIan,

11/07/2007 17:48:02

It would be a good idea to teach religious history to all. But not indoctrination in our free thinking Scotland.

Better to teach Hitchens and Dawkins. Religion poisons everything.

39

frank mcbride,

lusitania 11/07/2007 17:51:23

Like most of the posters on this thread, I think that the SNP is wrong to move in this direction.

I believe we should move to a secular education system as, I believe, that this is what the vast majority of the people of Scotland wants.

40

Miss H,

11/07/2007 18:01:55

The SNP hasn’t said that it wants Muslim schools. It has said that it will listen to those who do.

What do you want them to do? Say no get lost we don’t want to listen to you?

Not really very democratic I would suggest!

I do not agree with denominational schools but at present we do have them. Not just Catholic schools but Episcopalian and Jewish as well.

I do not think it would be right to say to the Catholics, the Episcopalians and the Jews OK you can have schools but deny the same to Muslims. What would be the logic of that?

It may be that the majority of people want to move to a secular education system – as do I – but I would suggest that we have not yet had the debate that is necessary to move forwards in that direction.

Comments like ‘If these people want an Islamic way of life there are many options elsewhere’ do not help.

So do we say the same to Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Jews, Mormons, pagans, followers of Obi Wan Kinobe?

You know a lot of people have a belief in some kind of deity and it is important to them. I personally do not but if we are going to say to people if your deity is not the same as my deity then you can sod off we have not moved all that far from the Stone Age after all, have we?

41

GD,

Glasgow 11/07/2007 18:13:19

Divide and integrate? Sorry but who really believes that this works?
Only the misguided or those who secretly want division can promote this idea.
Part of my schooling took place abroad where there was no segregation in schools and most pupils (to my disbelief at the time) had no idea whether they were protestant, catholic, muslim or whatever.
And guess what... there were absolutely no problems and no divisions.

We should remove religion from the 'compulsory subject' list, stop brainwashing our infants with fairy tales that are contradicted by science later in life, and stop teaching them that they are different.
Who fancies campaigning for Atheist schools where religion is not part of the curriculum?

42

thatscottishwoman 2,

11/07/2007 19:27:00

"Who fancies campaigning for Atheist schools where religion is not part of the curriculum?"

Me.

43

Lady inwaiting,

11/07/2007 19:32:23

not allow school for muslin where are the school for british Deaf children!!!!!!!!

44

Caora Dubh,

Dhachaidh 11/07/2007 19:37:47

Anyone who permits the wonderful, open mind of a young child to be filled with sectarian trash deserves to be taken to court for child abuse. Separate education for different sects, so that they can all avoid learning about each other and become as narrow-minded, small-brained, and backward looking, as their archaean parents?! Separate schools for separate religions? Those architects of apartheid still alive would applaud!
All schools should be forced to teach all religious brainwashing mumbo-jumbos equally, or teach none at all. Humanism must be taught too, as an alternative. And if you teach Christianity, then so too must you teach Craveri and Cascioli: to do otherwise is intellectually dishonest: nothing less than vile propaganda.
Having read many books about different religions, both sectarian and comparative, I am convinced that all religions are erroneous and have on balance inflicted enormous damage on human society. Islam is just the same as all the others.
It's time for us to ditch the mind-numbing, brain paralysing neurotoxin called religion, and replace it with humanist philosophy. Why move towards apartheid in the 21st century? Hell no, no Hell!

45

Iftikhar,

Forest Gate London 11/07/2007 19:56:07

English Only Vs English Plus
There is an increase of those children in state schools who do not come from English speaking back ground. One in seven children at primary school in England and one in ten at secondary school speak a language other than English at home. A research team from Goldsmiths concludes that using two or more languages deepens an understanding of mathematical concepts and results in a better overall performance in school. Bilingual children are able to access key concepts through both languages, giving them an advantage over monolinguals. Children who speak at least two languages actually strengthen their identities as learners and boost their cognitive development. Researchers say this finding is of particular importance for second and third generation immigrant children. It is important to “embed” mother tongues into daily activities through games, songs and incidental use, such as answering the register and giving praise and simple instructions, familiar stories can be told or acted out in their languages.

In the 60s and 70s, the British education system has destroyed the home languages and the new research proved that the policy was wrong and the British education system is guilty of crime against humanity. It is very important that immigrant parents keep talking to their children in their home tongues as this will give children a valuable tool to access lessons, deepen understanding of key ideas, and enhance overall school performance. Children who led bilingual lives could access their lessons through both languages. The children in the project expressed a strong desire to use their community languages in school. Teachers were able to tap into their pupils’ full range of cultural knowledge.

Children who attended mother tongues classes did better in their National Curriculum tests. Research suggests that bilingual pupils do better than those with just one language. The researcher warns that many second and third generat

46

Sanny,

11/07/2007 20:13:20

The consensus is clearly – no to religion in Schools – no apartheid in Schools – no to secularism. As in my previous post, I urge all of you – write to the SNP – write to your MP – Tell them how you feel and what you want doing about it. The MP’s are there to represent you and the way you want your country run. You have a voice – exercise it.

47

Sanny,

11/07/2007 20:21:00

I tried to post this comment on this story but after only ten comments the article was closed for comment.
Censorship anyone?

Brown: Terrorists will never change way of life

1 & 2 Write to your MP and tell him or her that if they continue in this way then you will change their way of life by voting them out. The one thing an MP fears more than the party whip is the threat of losing their seat.

48

albanoch,

kyoto Japan 11/07/2007 22:41:11

Joe M Edinburgh #7 .You're talking about things you know nothing of and do not understand when you mention "shady groups" like the masons {everyone can have a go at the masonic order with impunity}who ban Catholics. Catholics ARE NOT BANNED..in fact it's open to ALL MEN who believe in a supreme being or God irresepective of religious beliefs and religion and politics are subjects which are not allowed to be discussed in any lodge.
In my Lodge we have Catholics, Shintoists, Protestants,Buddhists etc. nobody from Edinburgh though...hey Joe, you want to become a member?

49

Name,

11/07/2007 23:53:06

Scotlandstan or Pakistan?

50

Sanny,

12/07/2007 00:36:51

59. AM2, Glasgow
The description of this school is more like that of a girls prison. Those of us who have spent time in Islamic countries will recognise the general ethos of this school to be in the tradition of Islam’s abuse of females

51

unionist,

ab erdeen 12/07/2007 07:45:56

Salmond is so busy brown nosing the muslim asians that it beggers belief. Its a pity he doesnt welcome english people or chinese who have come to Scotland, but is busy making english and welsh students into foreigners and doing his damdest to pick a fight with Westminster(for Westminster read english) and marginalise english people who have made scotland their home.

52

Royster,

12/07/2007 13:14:26

Nothing breaks down racism like having a school friend who is from a different culture or religion. If some mad mullah gets my back up all I have to do is think about my old Bangladeshi school mate Gulam and any anger subsides. I'm not totally against separate schools but they should admit at least 25% of their intake from other religions or non-believers.

53

James Moore,

12/07/2007 14:01:19

#68

You say, "Bilingual Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models."

Why should a UK govt fund this for such a small minority?

If you want this option, then i'm afraid you will have to relocate to an Islamic country!

54

Mrs. Trellis,

Devon 12/07/2007 14:18:08

#2/3 Scottish and proud, Edinburgh

Too slow maybe but absolutely right...ALL these faith schools are a divisive blight on our system of education.

Mrs T

55

Allan(handofgod137),

12/07/2007 15:51:06

Time to get rid of all "faith" based teaching in schools, and concentrate on ensuring that everyone recieves an education rather than indoctrination in an outmoded system of superstritious beliefs. If the parents wish, they can carry on the brainwashing at home!

56

Sumas,

12/07/2007 23:32:17

68 – Iftikhar Ahmad

You have made one of the most reasoned postings in this debate. The research you cite from Goldsmiths is something we supporters of all Gaelic schools have known for years. The opportunity for children to become bilingual and to gain a greater sense of their own cultural awareness leads to better understanding. Where there is sufficient demand for a Muslim school I see no reason why it should not go ahead.

57

,

19/05/2008 17:27:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

,

19/05/2008 17:30:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

No_to_islam,

09/06/2009 23:48:52
@ #42 & #43

I definitely want to campaign for the removal of religious indoctrination in our schools. Are we going to get this thing off the ground or what?

 

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