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Wednesday, 4th November 2009 Change Date Latest Issue

Bus drivers to ask veiled women to show faces

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Published Date:
03 May 2007
BUS drivers have been ordered to ask women wearing veils in the Capital to show their faces in order to catch out fare cheats.
The women are being told they must lift their veils or produce their passports or driving licences if they want to use a bus pass.

The move has caused anger in the Muslim community, with at least one woman walking off a bus after being told of the new rules.

The rules have been introduced by Lothian Buses to stop passengers using other people's passes. The firm says the rules are in line with airport security regulations and follow "best practice" in the industry.

Security staff at UK airports have been authorised to ask female passengers to lift their veils to verify their identities.

Many drivers are uneasy with the change and fear passengers will think they are being racist.

One woman walked off a bus on Ferry Road after being challenged by the driver. One driver, who asked not to be named, said: "All the drivers are raging about this. It seems really unnecessary and puts the driver in an awkward and potentially dangerous position.

"We risk being branded racist or just unhelpful because we are refusing people on to our buses. We could end up being attacked by other passengers."

Another driver added: "All of this is to stop fraud, but you have to ask just how much fraud is really being carried out this way."

Lothian Buses changed its rules in February so that anyone buying a Ridacard had to remove a veil to obtain a pass photo. The orders to drivers have since been pinned up at the firm's Annandale Street depot. Veiled pass holders who fail to comply with a driver's request would have to pay for a full fare ticket.

Some city Muslims said the new rules were unfairly intrusive. Sohaib Saeed, events co-ordinator at the Edinburgh Central Mosque, said: "You can see in areas such as airport security where there needs to be a degree of flexibility because of security, but I don't see why it is such a big issue for buses."

Shabana Banheer, a member of Muslim Women's Association Edinburgh, said: "I don't cover my own face but I can understand that if someone does it could be very demeaning to be asked to take off a veil like that. It shows a lack of trust."

Ian Craig, managing director for Lothian Buses, said: "Following transport industry best practice and guidelines set down by the British Passport Office, the DVLA and Transport Scotland, we issued our own guidelines to Travelshop staff stating that veils must be removed for the issuing of Ridacard photo cards.

"Guidance notes have also been issued to our drivers on how to deal with passengers wearing veils who travel using a Ridacard.

"Our Ridacards are unique to the holder and are non-transferable. Drivers must check that any travel pass presented is not being used fraudulently."

Councillor Dougie Kerr, the city's equalities leader, said: "I would hope Lothian Buses would look very carefully at any policies they have on this.

"This [policy] will obviously cause offence to some people and I would hope that anything so culturally sensitive would be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. I am quite sure there are very few women who would wear a hijab just to avoid paying a bus fare.

"If you don't need to remove them in schools or such like, I don't see why you should have to do so on a bus."

Former foreign secretary Jack Straw caused controversy last October when he admitted he asks Muslim constituents to remove their veils when they visit him at surgeries.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 August 2007 12:40 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Muslim issues
 
1

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 03/05/2007 11:16:01

How many times does it have to be said, Muslim is NOT a different RACE, it's a RELIGION! I could become a Muslim if I wanted and I'm a peely wally Scotsman from Barra!

FFS!

2

Mani,

Off the buses 03/05/2007 11:16:49

The real fare cheats put their prices up 8.7%

3

Martin.,

03/05/2007 11:20:26

What on earth have airport security regulations got to do with boarding a Lothian Bus? You really couldn't make this sort of thing up!

4

cammie,

east lothian 03/05/2007 11:20:41

Correct decision. If you have to look at a photograph and verify it against the person standing in front of you I believe it should be done. If radical Muslims are against that then they will just have to take alternative tranbsport. Religion brings tough decisions, tough commitment and tough alternatives.

5

BOONCBAK,

EDINBURGH 03/05/2007 11:23:11

When people come from non-christian countries, they should not expext laws to be altered to suit them; or for security to be overlooked to try and please them. If I went to live in a non-christian country, I would certainly not expect preferential treatment. They have to get real, and stop complaining about every single thing that they don't agree with.

6

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 03/05/2007 11:23:46

Good business opportunity for a Muslim bus company to deepen the segregation further, eh?

Aparthied here we come.

7

,

03/05/2007 11:25:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 586303, Article id was mapped to record!
8

Moody,

03/05/2007 11:26:39

#5 perfectly said mate, and also if folks aint happy with the rules and laws of the land over here, then they can always go and live elsewhere

9

Shaun McDonald,

03/05/2007 11:29:58

Why not use finger print recognition instead?

10

K,

03/05/2007 11:30:09

This kind of thing REALLY hacks me off.

In some countries, women can be shot for showing their bare legs. Does this mean I can go there and parade around in my best hotpants?? Stamping my feet and taking the huff if I am given a warning to cover up? It would be totally unacceptable.

If you cant respect differing countries laws, abiding by them if choosing to live in them - THEN LEAVE!

11

cammie,

east lothian 03/05/2007 11:30:19

Whhhhoooooaaaaa! This isn't about folk from other countries! This is about an extreme part of a religion. Dave, you tell them!

12

SOLACE ONE,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 11:31:10

If I go to a Muslim country I have to respect and obey their laws no matter how different they are to ours.

Why is that respect NEVER Reciprocated..??

13

Frodo the Scot,

middle earth 03/05/2007 11:33:38

Oh my god they've found somebody with balls......... I can hear the"bleeding hearts" calling OUT rascism and setting up a petition to get this stopped. OOOOH OOOOH THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!

14

Simon_NZ,

03/05/2007 11:36:46

How many veiled Muslim women travel on LRT buses daily that they feel they need to check every single one in case of fraud? Surely the number is miniscule compared to the vast majority of peely wally Scots that travel each day on the bus - how much have they projected that rings of veiled Muslim women are going to defraud them off each year, sure it must run into the 10s of pounds if that.
Are they also going to make very sunglass wearing hoodies remove their glasses and pull their hood back to check their ids as well!
Inline with 'airline security procedures' haha, perish the thought that a female jihadist might want to blow herself into immortality as the No4 is passing through Bingham

15

Martin.,

03/05/2007 11:42:36

We all have the right to disagree with laws, regulations, viewpoints we do not agree with in this country. Equally we are free to express these views and influence or seek change to laws and regulations we feel unjust.

These are freedoms which many have fought hard to gain, but some contributors here would appear to not want to extend to some moslems.

16

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 03/05/2007 11:43:28

As usual, my dear friend - DAVE FROM BARRA - is absolutely correct.

We HAD the same problem here in Canada when Muslim women applied for driver's licenses and were insulted when asked to remove their veils for the legal photograph to identify them as the valid holder of the license.

It had to go so far as the provincial legislature to get this ridiculous stance by some of these women to NOT have to reveal their faces for an important legal document.

When will all this madness and stupidity end?

17

Marie1,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 11:43:36

What would we do if the oil rich Muslim, should in return stop selling the west oil?
Answer, maybe go to war.
Britain should lighten up.
It is not the politicians who get hurt it’s the wee man & woman, who have to put up with all the blunders our Mps make.

18

MoragtheToerag,

Leith 03/05/2007 11:43:50

'perish the thought that a female jihadist might want to blow herself into immortality as the No4 is passing through Bingham'

Oh, really? And why on Earth not? A fanatic is a fanatic, male or female. British born or not.

Obviously someone was fanatical enough to step on a crowded London bus and blow it up.

Think it can't happen here?

Aside from that, the card's a photo ID. If they don't like it, they can use alterante transport.

I don't like playing by rules any more than anyone else, shall I start using religion as an excuse to get out of it?

Don't like it, LEAVE.

19

Martin.,

03/05/2007 11:45:48

#11. I would hardly say observing a particular dress code as an observance of a religion could be considered 'extreme'.

20

Justy,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 11:47:58

No-one is forced to use public transport. Th choice to do so is made by individuals alone.

Justy.

21

K,

03/05/2007 11:48:58

17 - "What would we do if the oil rich Muslim, should in return stop selling the west oil?"

THEY WOULDN'T!

We are their best customers!

22

Steve98,

Count me in please 03/05/2007 11:49:08

Where can I buy a veil in edinburgh? Hope my hairy arms and eyebrows don't give me away.

I already have the rucksack.

23

Dave101,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 11:50:17

#14 - exactly - rights for EVERYONE to enjoy

#16 - since when was this a christian country - have you seen the church attendance figures recently

24

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 11:51:50

"The move has caused anger in the Muslim community, with at least one woman walking off a bus after being told of the new rules."

Absolutely fine, a good walk won't do her and any of the rest of them who feel likewise any harm.

If they live here, they have to obey our laws, they are quick enough to find fault with us and with anyone who transgresses while visiting Muslim countries.

25

Immutable Name,

of Toll-X 03/05/2007 11:53:32

Bus passes use facial recognition, as it is the easiest and cheepest means to implement. If you don't want to show your face for whatever reason, then you can use cash instead, show face under sch conditions or use some other form of transport.

That's not to say one can't campaign for a non-facial system to be implemented: fingerprints being the obvious one as the tech for that is fairly widespead. However, the number of false negatives is still way to high for practically (i.e. you get on, but for one reason or another, and there are a lot of such reasons, your finger doesn't pass the test today: off the bus you get).

26

Layabout MSP,

03/05/2007 11:53:36

eh? just thought I'd point out that we live in a secular society - we don't live in a christian one!

we don't live in the dark ages anymore... we'll most of us don't

27

Bruce Ma Goose,

03/05/2007 11:54:19

This isn't an existing rule, it's clearly a new rule. So the arguments about "when in Rome..." don't cut the mustard for people who have already paid for their bus passes and wear the veil. Also, this report makes no reference to any instances of a Muslim person objecting to lifting their veil. So until such time as that actually happens, people might be well advised to put a sock in it rather than start getting all hot and bothered about "non-Christians".

I have never had my photo ID verified on a bus in my puff and frequently see people place their card down with the photo facing away from the driver (and sometimes upside down!), making identification impossible. If we are going to be more vigilant in preventing fraud, perhaps actually looking at the images might be a good starting point rather than prioritising enforcement against a miniscule sub-section of bus travellers.

28

Immutable Name,

of Toll-X 03/05/2007 11:55:41

PS regarding today's poll: bad question text. I answered yes, but it has nothing to do with being a Christian society. It is simple practicality.

29

Nitten bull,

03/05/2007 11:56:35

#9 - Discrimanatory to thieving Saudis !

30

abracadabra,

03/05/2007 11:58:45

The wearing of veils and the covering of bodies by Muslim women is a sign of oppression and domination by extremist Muslim men. It is not religious but radical and not founded by the Koran.
The majority of young modernised Muslim women wear western clothes without veils until they are married and then dominated by males who force them to dress in that manner.
To support this medieval form of dress imposed on Muslim women is a form of slavery, removing their right to be individuals and dominating their lives.
If Islam is to be treated seriously in the western world then all radical idealism has to be abolished

31

,

03/05/2007 11:58:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
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32

BERTIE BASSETT,

03/05/2007 11:59:50

#3 its to protect the public and stop fraud remember 7/7.Whats to stop a guy wearing one to cause murder and mahem. One of the 7/7 bombers actually wore one to escape through airport security .This is OUR country they should obey OUR rules or ***

33

JT,

edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:01:09

if the muslim community wants us to understand and accept their beliefs they have to understand and accept ours. Discrimination goes both ways and its not personal. I got ticked off by the bus driver the other day for not puting my card the right way round, so he could see it was me in the photo. I was slightly embarassed as he said it abit too loud, but do I complain to the EEN, the council, the bus company nope. As many of the above have said dont like rules in this country, cant accept them dont live here!!!

34

petrol head,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:02:43

I believe that the purpose of the veil is because in many Islamic countries, the status of women demands that they do. In Britain, no such thing exists.

Whilst I repect their rights to wear what they want I have to ask myself if it is really necessary to make this such a big deal?

Would a bus driver be slated if he asked a teenager to lift a hat off their eyes so that he could see their face? I doubt it. What is the difference between this and veils?

35

PJ,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:03:08

The whole idea of a photographic card, is to cut down on fraudulent misuse. How is this supposed to be maintained, with someone wearing a veil. If someone walks into a bank with a motorcycle they are required to remove it, kids or teenagers who wear hoodies are often told they are not welcome in shops and no-one thinks anything of it.

I have been to Tunisia on holiday and my wife had to dress appropriately, as not to offend anyone. We were told that dress code is important, particularly for females. Whilst a lot of skin (even topless) is tolerated on beaches and within hotel complexes, a modest amount of exposed skin may be frowned upon outside these areas.

We never left the country or took offence at this, as it was their country and we were guests and we did not wish to offend.

36

cammie,

east lothian 03/05/2007 12:04:29

19 - So you don't believe that having to completely cover your face with only a wee slit for the eyes to peep out is extreme? The new religious sect of "black crash helmet with even blacker visors" wearing should suit you then. Sorry, sarcasm but of course its extreme in a country where it is not common or the norm.

37

Liam,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:05:56

I can't remember the last time a bus driver actually took three seconds to lug at the mug shot on my rida card. They're usually not in the least bit interested.

38

chico,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:07:22

And quite rightly so. The driver has a duty to check the photo. This is not about being racist it is about letting the driver do his job and ensuring that the correct person is using the bus pass.
If I go to a muslim country I have to cover my shoulders etc. " When in Rome"

39

True Jambo,

03/05/2007 12:10:11

Justice, c mon the bus drivers.

40

EnEm,

03/05/2007 12:11:01

If a Muslim woman has the right to hide her face denying drivers the opportunity to verify the pass belongs to her, what's to stop a ned claiming the same right?

Once they caught on they had "the right", I can just imagine them all trotting onto the bus with their jumpers pulled up over their heads waving stolen passes at the drivers.

41

Andy,

03/05/2007 12:14:00

I say naked buses for us all. Much more fun and fair

42

Sally Fairweather,

03/05/2007 12:14:40

More than one comment above refers to this being a 'christian country', which is an offensive and divisive attitude. It's also wrong, thank dog. I would hate to live in a country that officially persecuted gays, repressed women, and sanctioned the sexual abuse of small children as the Christian churches all do. Fortunately we live in a society where evil hatemongers masquerading as moralists do not control the levers of the state as they do in so many other countries.

43

spiggot,

03/05/2007 12:14:52

#12 "How many veiled Muslim women travel on LRT buses daily that they feel they need to check every single one in case of fraud?"

Quite right and what's changed now?

A few months ago Jack Straw who has undoubtedly dealt many times with women in veils in his constituency surgeries without complaining suddenly decides that veils are a problem and lo and behold Lothian Buses decide to follow suit....... what's changed?...... Governments under pressure always rack up the racism especially when they're losing a dirty Criminal War in Iraq and Muslim women are an easy target......

AND.... #26 "eh? just thought I'd point out that we live in a secular society - we don't live in a christian one!" - QUITE RIGHT........so remember when you talk about extremism in relation to the veil that there are parties like the Scottish Christians who want to introduce the Christian fundamentalist equivalent of Sharia Law to this country - beware!

44

Joseph Cotton,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:15:11

Its that poll that is racist.

I was born a Muslim and I agree that people should show their faces for identification but the voting question is : "Yes, we’re a Christian not a Muslim society. "Whether the society is Christian or Muslim (Jedi Knight for that matter) is irrelevant to the Bus company making sure people are not cheating with the bus passes.

Vote for the editor to be removed.

45

elayne,

fife(edinburgh born n bred),well leith actually!!! 03/05/2007 12:15:11

is it not ok for muslim ladies to wear hijab(headscarf)instead of the full facial veil without compromising thier religious beliefs?

46

thehitmaster,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:16:27

The whole point of a photo ID card as used on the bus season tickets is obviously for ID purposes so where is the problem? I also suspect that the bus drivers that many say don't pay any attention to the photo, probably are more aware of whats on the card than you think - with cash rewards for catching folk using them when they shouldn't, pretty damn sure I'd check every one of them.

47

Martin.,

03/05/2007 12:19:08

#32. What utter nonesense! Wearing a veil to conceal your identity from a bus driver is hardly a pre-requisite for a terrorist attack.

48

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:19:27

#41 Dragonhead - well said. Definitely NOT SHARIA.

#37 PJ "a modest amount of exposed skin may be frowned upon"

It strikes me that the people who originally founded this religion must have sufferred from some pretty extreme fetish or phobia (just like most religious founders).

49

ST170,

The Pans 03/05/2007 12:21:55

I got on my local LRT bus and was asked to 'wear' a veil by the bus driver in the interests of passenger safety!

50

,

03/05/2007 12:22:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
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51

TSG,

03/05/2007 12:22:54

Stirring as usual. This is no big deal and will be seen as no big deal by most Muslim Women in our country.

52

TSG,

03/05/2007 12:24:28

Joseph Cotton is spot on. This about bus passes and people not cheating with bus passes.

it will directly affect probably 75 people.

CALM DOON !!!

53

Mad Cherie,

London 03/05/2007 12:29:37

Wearing this garb is a choice. Full points to the bus company but really, lets be honest, citing fare evasion is the only way to get these rules in or else we are discriminating. Against what, I am not sure....but generally in the fuss I work out that as a Brit I am discriminating against, well, anyone foreign.

Britain is not and must never be allowed to become an Islamic state. Be on guard comrades.

54

Immutable Name,

of Toll-X 03/05/2007 12:30:11

I'd vote for Jason as editor.
Not that I can, but I would.
OK, might: I'm not a one-policy activist really. But on the "anyone but the current holder" voting path, he'd win by a mile.

55

Hmmmm,

Glasgow 03/05/2007 12:30:30

What's with all the comments about if Muslims don't like it they should go home etc? The majority of Muslims in this country are Scottish, they are home!

As for showing the bus pass. If people are using the veil to steal a free trip on the bus I doubt they can claim the moral high ground on other religious matters.

56

tomias,

southside 03/05/2007 12:43:50

brian souter to run our buses; then no veiled or unvelied persons; catholics and of course homosexuals;buy the way who writes the lrt rule book?

57

The Facts,

03/05/2007 12:47:19

If there are religious objections to displaying faces, why don't the objectors stop buying bus passes and pay cash when they use busses.

That way they won't have to display their faces and they can use busses.

Is this too simple a resolution to the problem?

58

az,

03/05/2007 12:48:20

What about eye scans as well as finger print recognition

59

Man in Black,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 12:52:05

Althouh i am totally in favour of the integration into our country of 'foreign' cultures (as we have done for thousands of years) the hiding of a face on buses, planes, trains, in banks, shops etc. is totally unaceptable as it creates a sense of unease and causes security issues. I couldnt for example enter a bank with a motorcycle helmet on. Integration is a two way street...

60

Fred,

03/05/2007 12:52:52

Errrr theres probably only about two wimmin in Edinburgh who wear a veil anyways. And another thing this country is not a feckin christian country so stop spoutin on about whos got the better god, numptys.

61

Bob 2,

03/05/2007 12:56:40

no 60 spot on.

it would be like a "Hoody" hiding his face trying to use a bus pass or someone wearing a helmet.

No 62 is correct, we could all join some religious group that exempts us from something

There is to much PCs in this country - human rights etc!!!! , have a bit of common sense!!

62

True Jambo,

03/05/2007 13:00:57

What about we thrash anyone who goes on a bus with a hard stick.

lol

63

Heimy,

on a computer. 03/05/2007 13:04:20

#47 - you cannot be born a Muslim. You are born as a blank canvas, if you will, and then you have all sorts of superstition presented to you in such a light that you decide to adhere to some religious teachings when you are able to.

64

EnEm,

03/05/2007 13:04:56

I object to all of the options on that poll question. It's a trick to get people to acknowledge as legitimate the fallacy of national affiliation to religion. This is a secular issue for a secular society and religion is (as ever) irrelevant.

#65 What if they get on a bus with a soft stick? Would you still think they should be thrashed?

65

Thomas the Tank,

Embra 03/05/2007 13:06:47

Went to Tunisia last year and several fully-veiled women were stopped going in through Immigration to check I/D against their passport photies. So if it's good enough for a Muslim country, it's good enough for an LRT bus. And well done to Dave from Barra for pointing out, once again, that 'Muslim' is a Religious, not Racial, designation. Not aware there's anything about bus travel in the Koran, anyway, so if they're that devout they should stay in the hoose.

66

petrol head,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 13:08:17

Why not just get in the car instead?

67

Jakey Rowling,

03/05/2007 13:18:49

The number 4 to Bingham is now ready for boarding.
Would passengers in the upper deck in seats 15 to 34 please make their way forward with their boarding passes at the ready.

EasyLRT regret the delay caused by the additional security measures.
We would like to remind you of the hand luggage restrictions and that no food may be taken on board.

EasyLRT thank you for your custom and wish you a pleasant journey.

68

Dougie - Edinburgh,

03/05/2007 13:21:29

14. Martin
Fought for freedom?? LOL - since when did the concept of freedom include using photo identification without showing your face?

69

Geomac,

Scotland 03/05/2007 13:21:47

Well done LRT bus driver. The picture is on the bus pass for a reason. If the purpose for which the picture is required is frustrated by a non mandatory (religion or otherwise) form of apparel, then the driver is totally entitled to request facial vision

70

One-man-bucket's older twin,

03/05/2007 13:29:08

Bus drivers may not be perfect, but surely they already have enough to worry about (other suicidal road-users, the safety of their passengers, attacks by yobbos) without being forced to do something guaranteed to get them accused of discrimination (rather than racism).

This country expends disproportionate resources on stopping people 'cheating' (which is impossible anyway). Why is it more important to stop cheating than it is to provide services to those who need them?

71

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 13:30:02

#69 Petrolhead.

They probably got the bus passes for free - hubby can use the car!!

72

,

03/05/2007 13:30:16
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73

suz,

03/05/2007 13:31:54

#56 Mad cherie.
Don't worry, Scotland will never become a Muslim country. Can you imagine Scottish men tolerating being asked on a daily basis by their veil wearing wife, 'does ma' heid look big in this?'

74

Dougie - Edinburgh,

03/05/2007 13:32:18

58. Hmmmm
Muslims in Scotland are as Scottish as the Black Watch in Basra were Iraqis.

75

Gloryhunter Leith,

03/05/2007 13:32:52

Never mind the veils issue - what about getting the drivers to do something about the junkies and neer-do-wells who sit upstairs at the back, smoking joints and drinking super lager? I've never seen any of them stir a finger against them. And while we're about it, which charm school do they all go to?

76

Alison1,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 13:33:26

Why is this headline news?? It should go without saying.

77

Mysteron,

03/05/2007 13:34:10

Errmm....how the hell did they get a bus pass in the first place? Wouldn't they have had to lift the veil for the photo?

78

,

03/05/2007 13:35:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
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79

Embra boy,

03/05/2007 13:36:22

81 comments!

Isn't it time we drew a veil over this issue?

(Oops!)

80

Bored,

03/05/2007 13:37:30

I might be missing something here. But could someone please clarify. If a muslim woman feels the need to wear the veil to protect her modesty, would she also carry identification with her face uncovered for all to see, upon request??? Or, would the photograh on the bus pass also show the womans face coverd with the veil???

81

TSG,

03/05/2007 13:40:36

What I hate most of all is the way the press gets people into worrying about this sort of crap.

Printing this sort of crap should be against the law.

But mysteron has a very good point. Maybe its okay to lift your veil in a photobooth , i guess its okay to take pictures of your bare bum in there too.

82

Embra boy,

03/05/2007 13:41:43

#83 Clearly yes, or perhaps no, and possibly.

83

Bored,

03/05/2007 13:42:22

If the bus driver was a woman, then there would be no problem, would there? More women bus drivers.

84

Martin.,

03/05/2007 13:44:28

#71. I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse as that’s not what said.

85

suz,

03/05/2007 13:49:20

Exactly #80. Like wearing a veil is a choice, so is getting a bus pass-if it is going against strong religious principles to show your face to strangers then she wouldn't have lifted the veil for the photo in the first place, she would have paid the price of her faith and accepted paying full fare. She chose to save money by getting a bus pass and sold out her principles in the LRT office. It was her decision and she has no reason to complain now.

86

Jon Flowers,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 13:55:52

The question in your on line poll is offensive.
We are NOT a christian society and do not want to be one. Out society should be tolerant and not based on any one faith.

87

christopher,

03/05/2007 13:58:44

this country (UK) is on the biggest guilt trip ever. we pander to every tom, dick and harry because at one time or another we were running about the place killing or enslaving their ancestors. this is why we find ourselves where we are. trying to hard to be liked. the reason for that is tony blair has made us unliked.

i recall a story a few years ago concerning a woman, this woman had collected ceramic pigs since she was a wee wee girl, which she displayed in her house and in her garden they had been there for years!!! a family of muslims MOVED next door to her, they must have saw the pigs before they moved in, they then complained to the police and this woman had each and every ceramic pig confiscated and was branded a racist. i ask you???

we do not ask anyone to come to this country, if they want to come they have to realise the culture, respect OUR beliefs and ways of doing and bloody well get on with it like the rest of us.

that message goes out to every single person who comes here from other countries.

as others have said no-one asked you to come, no-one is asking you to stay so if you don't like the way we do things go and find somewhere else to live. in fact go to the countries that uphold your beliefs and live there then there will be no hassle whatsoever. if our shores are so bad why do the come in their droves?

i know i am using the words 'their' and 'ours' but what else are you supposed to say? is these comments i have made racist? or can't i speak of MY beliefs in my country of birth where free speech is the fundamental? some people are getting to big for their boots i reckon and it is about time they were brought down a peg. anyone from another country who moans should be given a one way ticket back to the country they came from and then ask them how bad our country is.

88

Dougie - Edinburgh,

03/05/2007 14:03:04

87. Martin
That's exactly what you implied. Why mention freedom in the context of this article otherwise?

Apologists for Islam continually remind us of how the WWII generation fought to protect our freedom. If this generation had actually been told that they were fighting so that Muslim foreigners could settle en masse in their own homes, blow up their trains and buses and redefine national identity to include hostile foreigners just because they’re to get their hands on a passport, Hitler would have had nobody to oppose him.

89

TSG,

03/05/2007 14:04:59

THIS IS MEDIA CREATED BOLLOCKS AND I DONT CARE IF THIS COMMENT IS REMOVED.

There is no issue here - NONE AT ALL.

There is nothing worse than intellectualising about a subject that some HACK has cobbled together to fill a page !!

Nothing personal.

90

TSG,

03/05/2007 14:05:32

THE MUSLIMS DONT CARE !!!

91

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 14:12:05

#89 Jon Flowers

Strongly PC are we?

92

HaggisEater,

Scotland 03/05/2007 14:13:37

Thought about wearing a veil myself many times - when I was born, I was so ugly, the nurse slapped my Mother !

93

,

03/05/2007 14:22:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
94

Rainbow3507,

Glasgow 03/05/2007 14:22:14

All this hatred and bigotry makes me sad that I am Scottish. Why do we have to discriminate against people based on their faith/dress/sexuality/nationality/etc.

Lothian Buses are guilty of discrimination by introducing policies/practices that only affect one group (in this case Muslim women).

I hope that they rethink their stance on this one and focus on providing a reliable, safe bus service for ALL passengers.

95

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 14:29:06

#97 Rainbow3507.

So veil-wearing Muslim women are to be an exception to the regulations then?

That should really make them stand out in a crowd.

96

scunnin,

03/05/2007 14:35:55

#13 Jennifer - EXACTLY!!

97

Glorfindel,

Twinkletown 03/05/2007 14:35:57

I just want to add my tuppenceworth.

If we go to live in Islamic countries, we are expected to fall in with their customs and way of life.

Shouldn't they do the same here??

Mind you, there's a fair sprinkling of the men should be forced to wear the veil too! Uurrgghh!!! Not even on a good night, sweetie!!

Glorfindel
(hugs and kisses xxx)

98

Embra boy,

03/05/2007 14:39:42

If a tree falls over in the forest and there is nobody there - does it make a sound?

I think I've made my point.

99

Androsthenes,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 14:42:28

Since one of the London bombers disguised HIMSELF as one of these hijab covered women ,I think they should be banned altogether.

100

Embra boy,

03/05/2007 14:46:08

#105 How sexist! What's to stop a woman wearing a hijab from being a bomber?

101

PJ,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 14:51:41

#100 jennifer. Oh my that is very sharp of you, or I could say it was a veiled attempt at humour.

102

Dougie - Edinburgh,

03/05/2007 15:11:14

97. Rainbow3507
Instead of snivelling about how ashamed you are of your own race, why don't you do something about it by moving to a Muslim country? Expecting people to show their faces when using photo identification is not discrimination because everybody else has their faces visible. A visible face is a prerequisite for the system to work.

103

Moody,

03/05/2007 15:12:33

#90 another well put comment, well done !!

104

Thomas the Tank,

Embra 03/05/2007 15:13:41

Excellent point by Abra (if I can be so forward!) at #30 - the recent clampdown by the Iranian Religious Police on 'immodest dress' (like, showing a bit of bare arm, a sexy chin or a provocative lock of hair) was justified on the grounds it might provoke inordinate and lustful desires in devout islamic men, and might even put them off their wives at home. Seems it's the extremist islamic men who might have the problem, not the women.

105

TSG,

03/05/2007 15:14:59

Christopher , away with you and your story of confiscated wee ceramic pigs. Do you really believe that rubbish ?

106

Mick Maroon,

03/05/2007 15:15:07

Easy answer: scrap bus fares. No need for bus passes, nae problem.

#92 - spot on!

107

James (1),

03/05/2007 15:16:50

Simple solution. Make applications for new bus passes require that

a) a photograph of the applicant has to be provided before issue of and eligibility for a bus pass.

b) this photograph has to be a true likeness and if the driver believes this is not a true likeness the pass cannot be used and the fare must be paid.

If the woman then tried to use a bus pass while wearing a veil the driver can say "sorry that is not a good likeness you will have to pay the fare".

So if muslim women want to wear a veil they now know the cannot use a bus pass. It is a drawback of wearing a veil. Just as walking on stilts makes it hard getting on a bus. You either wear them and don't get on the bus or take them off and on you get. (That's my go at humour, sorry)

Now we come to the bleeding hearts. No doubt my suggestion will be too demeaning and will penalise free women who have the right to travel at reduce costs. I am no doubt forcing women not to wear a veil which is part of their religion.

108

Canadian in Edinburgh,

03/05/2007 15:18:17

If they don't like it....THEN LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND GO HOME! I'd get spat at if I showed some skin in their countries even if it was +30 C...if I tried to fight it and say it was a silly rule i'd be thrown out! So let's throw them out then!

109

Frank . G .,

Saltcoats 03/05/2007 15:24:15

" NO WORRIES PROBLEM SOLVED!"
*****************************

Why not just make it compulsory right now , that all women in Scotland wear veils , they will be soon enough ! ..........

Scotland may no longer be as Christian a country as it was in the past ... but nobody or nothing , can stop it from becoming a Muslim country of the future .

Unless , we get rid of these non-conformists right now !
Our descendants will most definitely be , warring sectarian clans of Macjihad's .

The quaint old Catholic/Protestant issues of yesteryear will be scoffed at in their places of worship , as the childish kindergarten games the extinct Christians used to play in this new Islamic Land.

"INSTALL 'FULL BODY X-RAY MACHINES' IN EVERY BUS IMMEDIATELY!"

"WHY WAIT UNTIL SOME HAIRY (ARST) SUICIDE BOMBER ,
BLOWS UP A BUS FULL OF INFIDEL SCOT"S !"
SHOUTING GOD IS GREAT!"

110

Mick Maroon,

03/05/2007 15:25:05

#117 Most of them are home. Are you?

111

John S,

03/05/2007 15:26:01

#32 your are correct.

Suspect in terror hunt used veil to evade arrest.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article666...

6ft 2in bomb accused 'fled in a burkha'
http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=275762007

This is copied from the Moslem Council of Britain website:-

There is no mention of the face-veil anywhere in The Qu'ran or from the tradition of the Prophet of Islam (pbuh)

http://www.mcb.org.uk/faq/answers.php?id=104

112

bobwmac,

Stirlingshire 03/05/2007 15:26:12

Of course they should be identified. A bus pass, passport or a driving licence is issued to an individual, not to an extended family. What would be the reaction if I wandered about wearing a ski mask and a goonie?

113

Martin.,

03/05/2007 15:29:09

#91. Once again, this time with some borderline islamophobia / xenophobia chucked in for good measure. It's not that you don't get the point, it's more that you don't want to get it.

114

Canadian in Edinburgh,

03/05/2007 15:31:50

#119 Most of them are home? You're having a laugh surely...
No i'm not at home, i've moved to Edinburgh permanently thank you, and before you even start prodding, i've done it all legally with my own money i've saved up in Canada and by working over here. I'm just making a point that muslims seem to think they can waltz into any country and make the gov't bow down to their rules and change for them...it happens in Canada as well (at least we are fighting back now tho and telling them straight out to go home...) It's completely unfair and if they don't like the rules here, it's simple...LEAVE...I may be from another country and may have some different beliefs but I do not expect the country to change just on my behalf

115

Truth Finder,

03/05/2007 15:33:20

These female Ninja's should be banned from all public places, i.e...airports, bus terminals, train stations, banks, post offices etc etc etc.

116

Tillybud,

03/05/2007 15:35:07

Well said #90 Christoper. I agree with all your comments.

#113 TSG I remember that story and it was true. Sounds unbelievable I know but it did happen. So don't rubbish it.

117

Mick Maroon,

03/05/2007 15:40:50

Most UK-resident Muslims were born here. This is their home. Fact. Check the census.

118

Gloryhunter Leith,

03/05/2007 15:45:12

Why is it always the usual wee racist, sectarian, myopic numpties who go on and on about "OUR country" as if it was something special? And, as usual, their comments are peppered with the worst spelling, grammar etc? Move on, you dinosaurs! Your time has passed. Globalisation and multiculturism are facts of life, so just get used to it. Come the revolution...first against the wall :)

119

suz,

03/05/2007 15:49:40

123 comments and only one 'comment removed.'
That's good going considering the subject matter, although I am waiting with bated breath over #118. 'Hairy arst' might be the straw that broke the camels back.
Have to remember that it is but a short 40 years ago in Scotland when women wouldn't be seen in the street without a headscarf and not that long before that, going to church without your head covered would have led so some very stern looks!

120

Mysteron,

03/05/2007 16:04:19

Does anyone have any idea what policy transport companies in other areas of the UK, with larger muslim populations follow? Surely this can't be the first time this 'problem' has arisen!

121

James (1),

03/05/2007 16:06:19

#104 "If a tree falls over in the forest and there is nobody there - does it make a sound?
I think I've made my point."

Yes it does, although really I should not be telling you this as it will upset some people.

I think therefore I am. I think I've made my point.

122

jayceebee,

03/05/2007 16:13:51

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Is that clear?

123

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 16:13:54

#128 Suz

It's a lot more than 40 years ago, most probably before World War II.

I certainly remember women wearing headscarfs (I am 64), but there was no insistance that they should do so be it in or out of church, or any where else for that matter and I am certainly not aware of stern looks or comments.

The reverse is the case (sadly) in some Muslim countries where women who don't wear the veil, etc can be beaten to a pulp by some religious maniac of a so-called 'Religious Policeman'. While I haven't visited or worked in any of these countries myself, for which I thank God (please PC folk don't complain because I might offend someone by using the 'G' word) I have a large nuimber of friends who have and who can testify to having winessed such horrifying events (Saudi Arabia is one such place).

Those who are protesting about our bus-pass system should either put-up or shut-up, or better still, just walk.

Imagine the situation of some traffic warden shouting at some Muslim woman: "Oi Mrs you can't park your camel on a double yellow line!".

124

Dougie - Edinburgh,

03/05/2007 16:19:14

127. Gloryhunter Leith

As a wee myopic numpty who presumably can't spell, I'd just like to know if we should welcome Scotland becoming more like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Somalia or Iraq?

The likes of Japan and South Korea don't think "multiculturism" is fact of life. They seem to be doing just fine on the basis of monocultural homogeneity although they perhaps miss the ethnic riots and Islamic terrorism that spice up life in Western countries.

If multiculturalism (ie. accepting dilution and displacement of our own culture in what used to be our country) is a fact of life that we should accept unquestioningly as beneficial, why is it leading to so much bloodshed across Asia and Africa? Why is there such “white flight” from Paris, London, Brussels and Amsterdam, why are there daily gang killings in once orderly cities like Manchester and London?

And most of all, how can a civilised Northern European such as you presumably are, possibly imagine that accommodating the cultural norms of a savage desert religion, hardly progressed from its premediaeval roots will somehow be of benefit to anybody, least of all its oppressed women adherents?

125

lucuma,

03/05/2007 16:22:12

I lived in Far East, HK & Malaysia where you have to abide by the laws of the country so why should Muslims be upset about following our rules. If they want to stay in this country then abide by our laws and stop complaining and saying we are being racist.

126

James (1),

03/05/2007 16:34:27

#133 Oh, you've done it now!

As we speak there are tree huggers all over the UK letting go of their trees to go to their computers to tell you how bad you are.

127

James (1),

03/05/2007 16:41:24

#133 I also meant to say that with regard to the part you said

"The likes of Japan and South Korea don't think "multiculturism" is fact of life. They seem to be doing just fine on the basis of monocultural homogeneity although they perhaps miss the ethnic riots and Islamic terrorism that spice up life in Western countries"

There are more of them than there are of us and as you know minorities are who now make the policy we have to live by.
So we are saying they are wrong. Welcome all and sundry. We all must accept change and if a minority can force the majority to change that must be a good thing regardless of how many people it upsets. That is what the minority will tell you. Just ask.

128

Ed_Izmir,

Turkey 03/05/2007 16:44:03

They don't need to remove their veil, the just need to pay cash on the bus.....simple really.

It's a matter of choice.

129

I'm no really here,

03/05/2007 16:44:04

If I am in a muslim country like Saudi, etc, I have to obey their RELIGIOUS laws. This is not a religious law but a security measure. If they don't want to show their face, then simple pay the full rate.

If I have a bus pass and then cover my face with a scarf, the bus driver will not let me on - so what is the difference

130

Wee Hibeeeee,

Linlithgow 03/05/2007 16:47:07

Would the women in question not have to remove their veils to allow the photo to be taken in the first place?
Does LRT employ males and females to take a photo so that no offense is caused?

131

I'm no really here,

03/05/2007 16:47:22

If they don't have to show their faces, and I do, then that is religious bigotry.

132

KTCB41,

03/05/2007 16:52:59

What's race got to do with it?

The company wants people who have a pass to prove that they are entitled to use it. To do that they compare the face on the pass to the person standing infront of the driver. Everyone is treated the same, there is no discrimination.

If you don't want to be covered by the rules of the bus pass scheme, because you want to weare a veil etc then you can choose not to be by putting in £1 and buying a ticket.

133

Truth Finder,

03/05/2007 17:02:01

#126. No way are the tens of thousands of Muslims currently in Edinburgh/Lothians 'mostly born here' or anything like it. And the Ninja variety are 100% imported, mostly under the guise of arranged marriage.

The fact these aliens are equal under the law and entitled to all the benefits going boils my blood .

134

Baldyeagle,

03/05/2007 17:04:48

if you want a bus pass to save the extra 10% then obey the rules.

"Shabana Banheer, a member of Muslim Women's Association Edinburgh, said: "I don't cover my own face but I can understand that if someone does it could be very demeaning to be asked to take off a veil like that. It shows a lack of trust.""

Anyone having to show their bus pass in the first place shows a lack of trust. it is a business, deal with it... I am about 6'4" and 19 stone with a broad scots accent. have the bus drivers got any more authority to ask me to remove my headscarf, if I decide to wear one, than some muslim women? This measure is not to degrade the muslim women but to make sure that non-muslim women or people impersonating them will not go unpunished...

135

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 03/05/2007 17:27:21

#133. Dougie - Edinburgh
Your response to #127. Gloryhunter Leith, is apt. It is "wee myopic numpties" like him who, whether they can spell or not, stir the pot for their own vicarious pleasure, usually in the guise of being seen to be "equal-opportunities", and "multicultural-minded" individuals. To come out all holier-than-thou against what is a perfectly reasonable and rational demand - the veil-and-bus-pass thing - is absurd. I don't need to go any further than that as others on this board have adequately made the point. To the blind, deaf and dumb defenders of Islamic stupidity, just ask your Muslim friends how liberal the Muslim male is underneath the surface.

Defenders of unpleasant alien customs in their own land are self-righteous and disingenuous. They forget so easily that a growing group of twisted minds is out there ready to bomb and gratuitously annihilate everybody and anything in their path. Defend that if you will, #127 and your "enlightened" ilk.

I don't want Scotland to go the way of England, France, Germany and the Netherlands, to name but four European countries whose indigenous culture is being eroded dangerously thanks to toadying cowards of politicians bending to outcries from those bloody "angry always
angry" Muslims. I know of no other group on Earth that has infiltrated countries alien to their chosen way of life and expected the host country to accommodate to their every whim.

As one who has lived and worked in several countries, my preference is to fit in. I do not expect a country whose modus operandi is different from my own home patch to bend the rules for me or mine. I expect to speak the language of my host country, even if less than perfectly, and I do not plot and scheme to undermine their way of life by wearing alien clothing; I have no desire to build "places of worship" (aka conspiracy parlours), nor do I wish to harm my host community

136

,

03/05/2007 17:37:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
137

Märio Antoinette,

03/05/2007 17:41:02

look how excited you all get about bus passes, look how ignorant you all are of the normal low abiding Muslim.

No wonder there are problems, learn something about Mussies.

138

Leila,

03/05/2007 17:43:25

Most people seem to be agreed that if you expect to use a bus pass with your photo on it, it makes sense that the bus driver needs to be able to see your face.
What I can't understand is why the EN thought it appropriate to word the questions on their poll as they have done - is it ignorance, is it lack of editorial control? Firstly, the issue is specifically about women wearing veils using photo bus passes, NOT about any woman getting on a bus wearing a veil. Secondly, whether or not there is any predominant religion in this country is irrelevant to the issue.

139

Bien E. Bien,

03/05/2007 17:55:02

I'm not sure that there is a need for muslims to be using the bus in the first place. They have a tonne of money from all the oil in the middle east, and are not supposed to be spending it all on fags or booze of other intoxicating substances.

Surely they can afford to take a taxi.

140

Andy Duncan.,

03/05/2007 18:28:10

I know this may sound ridiculous and out of keeping with the jingoistic sabre rattling, racial and religous sterotyping that characterises many of the contributions to this discussion but is a little tolerance too much to hope for... I guess so.

At least it clears up all those dumb myths about Scots hospitality and humanity.

141

jeanney,

broughton 03/05/2007 18:31:23

reality check people- its a photo bus pass- whats on the photo-wearing veil?-ok bus company fault if it was allowed and she shouldnt have to show face cos photie not showing face-not wearing the veil?, then she should have to show her face- its a personal pass for the purchaser and how else can the driver tell if she is the purchaser-she doesnt have to buy this type of pass there are other options available, its all a matter of personal choice- give these ladies some credit, if they dont wish to lift the veil they wont have done it for the photo

142

Finbarr Saunders,

03/05/2007 18:43:51

I thought all Muslim women travelled in Toyota Hiace vans!

143

Woody47,

03/05/2007 18:46:15

Can't see what all the fuss is about.If you are trying to use a pass with a photograph on it surely it stands to reason that you need to prove you are that person. If you do not, just pay the normal fare. Problem sorted. As a matter of interest, if I pulled a scarf over face and pulled my hoody over my head, would I be able to use a pass on the bus without showing my face - I think not!

144

James2122,

Freee Radical --- NOT Racist like some o yous 03/05/2007 19:09:08

Quite simple.
Its not necessary.
If there was a prob wi folks gettin on buses wi veils and gettin on cheaper then ok.... but NO this is not a big prob!!! Obviously!!
So theres another agenda/reason... obviously!!
This is not good.
i think its racism or perhaps theres another reason...
why should some peeps cover up?
Thats sureley not the way to behave!???
We are humans here in the uk and we respect each other.
Therefoe I don't want this SICK predujiced behaviour here.. thanks.

145

Sad n lonley,

Sat in my bus 03/05/2007 19:11:54

I think I have the answer

Dont get a bus pass pay as you ride

Problem solved.

146

Porry,

03/05/2007 19:16:23

Well, if some Muslim women want to wear a veil, they have every right to do so. If they don't want to lift it for the bus driver, fine! But then they can't use a Ridacard. It is as simple as that. We don't want to give this a racist touch and call it the usual semitic love for exaggeration. But at the same time we expect members of a religious or ethnic minority to abstain from playing the racist card in defence of their different (in Europe uncommon) customs.

147

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 19:25:46

#149 Citizen1

"I dare say if the people of this country were boarding public transport with balaclavas on and only had their eyes showing they would also be required to remove them."

Quite wrong Citizen 1, they would be immediately gunned-down by the Special Branch (and then of course asked to show their buspass).

148

James2122,

03/05/2007 19:29:10

Ye V funny but this is not good.
We are a good bunch a people here.
Lets stand up and say ---- YES
we do admire people frm diff circs that get o wi it!
C'mon we the scots are thje ones that made this world:
Alexzander Bell (oh telephone is usefuel) ,John L Baird (huh tv is not bad) and of course hey the ww (invented in edinburgh) . Never mind all the great meicinal stuff and the fact when we buy stuff from supermarkets its a lot helthier thanks to The great eED ... it goes ona nad on.. ... we're world leaders..

Just sometimes think we're not that bad us scots huh?

149

James2122,

03/05/2007 19:30:56

sorry for bad spelling in last but you get the idea

150

James (1),

03/05/2007 19:41:08

#89"The question in your on line poll is offensive.
We are NOT a christian society and do not want to be one. Out society should be tolerant and not based on any one faith."

WRONG. We are a christian majority, for the moment. I say for the moment because this is slowly being erroded by groups of people, such as you who want to undermine us and make us feel that we should support every other religion and ignore our own. Speak up for it and some wee Toad will find it offensive.
We play host to many immigrants and are happy to do so.
What I personally object to is the way that these immigrants set up their own community and once this is done then start demanding we change our views and way of life.
Please remember they were coming here because their way of life and standards were not acceptable to them and they saw the UK as the way ahead.
Now it would appear this way is not good enough for them as it is not like home. The home they left.
That annoys me to the max.
This bowing to every whim of minorities cannot go on.

151

Androsthenes,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 19:49:52

If they're veiled how does the driver know they're even women?

152

Lady inwaiting,

03/05/2007 19:59:20

women want the veil then they should go home their country and they can wear the veil.

153

ADD,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 20:05:53

People are saying these measures have been taken to prevent fraud. I have just came from the polling station where I was able to vote by only giving my name and the street I lived. I did not have my polling card and showed no form of ID. What kind of country is this comming to when there are stricter regulations for us to get on a bus that to vote. I also have in the past used my sisters bus-pass at we look similar. This is something I think more people do that disgusing themselves with a veil. Are measures being taken to provent this? And finally WE DO NOT LIVE IN A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY! It is non-secular and I'm shocked people do not realise this! Also it is slightly unfair to talk about extremest muslims as, although yes there were the 7/7 attacks, you are much more likely to be injured or killed in attacks, such as football hooliganism, involving catholics and prodestants.

154

Bien E. Bien,

03/05/2007 20:06:54

#161 - even unveiled you might ask the same question. Comes down to the weight of the beard line. :~)

155

Rami,

New Hampshire 03/05/2007 20:29:14

Years ago in the State of Illionois, City of Chicago,
the Chicago Transit Authority, (that is surface transit) what we call here in the States City Bus's.
The CTA is Union organized and their contract was
coming up; what with a high crime rate increase
it was suggested that the Tranit Buses opt for
"Exact Fair" only! Tokens would be excepted also
as proper fair. The second option presented was
that the Bus Operators would be licienced to carry a
concealed handgun. The Bus Operators title would
be changed from Surface Transit Operator to
"Special Police"; and they would have to continue
to carry cash and make change for the general
public up to a $20.00 bill U.S. Dollars. I guess that
is close to 10 lbs of your form of currency.
And guess what; yes they chose to be called
Special Police on Public Transit Operations with the
concealed carry permit. This was done over
three decades ago. Ahead of their time I guess!

156

Truth Finder,

03/05/2007 20:35:10

#156, au contraire! I'd give them all free Ridacard's ...back to their point of origin! Where they can ride away into the sunset on what passes for public transport in Lahore etc...

157

Ms Horrible Cankers,

The Cyber Shebeen 03/05/2007 21:04:45

161....I believe that is the very point of being swathed in yards of material.....this is ludicrous...their id cannot be checked when veiled..why put drivers in this position...no veil...not even with a pass with a veiled photo on it....thats a bloody joke....dont care if they are muslim...hindu...Michael Jackson....protestant or catholic... no one should be veiled on occasions when they need to be identified...where is the logic in that?

158

Alex.,

03/05/2007 21:06:10

When are we going to stop appeasing these minority groups? They have to learn to live with the rules that everyone else is expected to obey. How quickly would the police be called if I went into a corner shop with my face hidden with a balaclava. Was the woman who left the bus because she was asked to remove her veil a cheat who was caught?

159

LRT Bus Driver,

Edinburgh 03/05/2007 21:09:18

As an LRT bus driver, I feel I deserve my tuppence worth. Frankly I'm shocked to find the comments here, overflowing with xenophobia and bigotry. As for the issue, frankly its a non-starter. As according to the actual memo in the depots, as long as a veiled Muslim lady, if requested by the driver, can provide an additional form of photographic evidence, (and not neccesarily a passport or driving licence) she need not remove her veil, thats right, she need not remove her veil. So much ranting for so small an issue.

160

proudscot,

australia 03/05/2007 21:09:48

Religion is a lot of nonsense! Anybody who disagrees should read the book "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.
As for the people who claim Scotland is a christian country, I find that deeply offensive nonsense. If you must follow your religion that is a personal choice, but it does not allow you to call a whole country christian. Personally I am an atheist from Scotland and proud of it.

161

rock on jonny,

gillie 03/05/2007 21:42:22

your council owns lothian buses voting closed 20 mins ago.

162

rock on jonny,

gillie 03/05/2007 21:49:21

155 .you my son just solved the problem 11/10

163

Paula,

03/05/2007 21:55:36

Personally I feel the veil is oppressive however if they choose to wear it they choose to do so. As someone who is partially deaf in one ear, not being able to see a person speaks makes communication quite difficult and I do think the veil has been made a political tool rather than a statement of faith.

If the bus drivers need to see the full face then so be it. I dislike the route that the discussion is taking but at the same time this is a free country, remembering however that one of the recent terrorist suspects escaped by wearing his sisters veil.

164

John S,

03/05/2007 22:05:30

It is NOT part of a Moslem woman's religious duty to wear the face veil. End of story.

There is no mention of the face-veil anywhere in The Qu'ran or from the tradition of the Prophet of Islam (pbuh)
http://www.mcb.org.uk/faq/answers.php?id=104

165

,

03/05/2007 22:25:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
166

Mark j,

Leith 03/05/2007 22:54:42

Easy solution.
veiled woman doesn't want her face shown should by day rider pass -no photo needed.

167

DOONUNNER,

Perth, Oz. 03/05/2007 23:57:27

Remember one of the bombers recently in court was found by police hiding in a bathroom complete with veil over his head dressed up as a woman to try and get away.
The first people to shout about being the need for the veil are the first to abuse it as terrorists.

168

,

04/05/2007 01:46:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 589656, Article id was mapped to record!
169

shacks,

australia 04/05/2007 07:31:55

i agree with the bus company. my bank says i cannot wear a motorbike helmet. if i emember right didn't a terrorist escape the country dressed as a muslim woman

170

TSG,

04/05/2007 07:46:18

Theres so much Ignorance on here it is fightening -and so few Muslims in our country.

You don't know you are born.

171

SRW,

Edinburgh 04/05/2007 08:36:11

We are now having to bend over so far to appease religion its no wonder Scotland has no back bone left.

172

Andy man,

Niddrie 04/05/2007 09:14:49

WOW! This thread is such an insight into the mentality of the average Scot. It shows that we are an ignorant, racist, xenophobic, and intolerant society. The anger and venom in peoples words is frightening. Scottish people talk about this being a christian society, but when do they EVER go to church? If your lucky once a year at christmas. Your happy to celebrate Christmas by drink driving and exchanging gifts in the name of religion but when it comes to other peoples opinions or religious choices yer no better than Hitler. I am shocked at how many people are posting comments like 'leave this country if ye dinny like it!'. Shame on you! You are an absolute disgrace to the Scottish race. Historically Scotland has always been a shelter for people from all over the world and has a history of tolerance. If anybody looks into their own families geneaology they will soon realise that their own family is full of so-called foreigners! Read a book, talk to a muslim, stop believing all the media propaganda, talk to somebody who wont just agree with you because of their own ignorance and say 'aye, aye, yer right boabby' and put an end to this neanderthal mentality! Oh and if your going to post something you think is contribution to this country, learn how to spell.

173

WalkTheLine,

Edinburgh 04/05/2007 10:33:02

Ok... this thread is getting a bit long, however one idea hasn't be voiced yet. Why not start another religion... One that forbids paying Taxes and we have to have at least 50 days holiday a year. The best part of it, if anyone questions or tries to change our way of life, we'll get them in front of a judge for racism.

Seems crazy? Maybe the whole lot is!

174

K,

04/05/2007 10:48:51

#184 Andy man...

You are a typical example of the community who flash the "thats racist!" card at every opportunity...give it a rest, it is really boring.

The posts that have obviously offended you are NOT racist or ignorant but are views of the people of this Country who are sick to the back teeth of special treatment awarded to those who go against our laws. This stretches from ladies wearing a veil to neds getting away with murder because the law cant touch them and millions of other examples in between.

Driving at speeds of over 70mph will result in a penalty because you are putting lives at risk - Do you think people who originate from Countries with no speed limits would win an argument that "because this is the rule where I am from, I demand to be allowed the same allowance here" in our courts?? Would you argue that because this was the custom they are used to, that they should be granted the same privelidge here?? Didn't think so.

Go waffle your statement to those who lost their loved ones on the London Bus that was blown up...I dare you.

175

Just passing through,

04/05/2007 11:13:11

If she is paying cash, there is no issue.
If she is using a travel pass, obviously facial recognition is the means of proving ownership of the travel pass, and therefore purchase of the service. Refusal to show her face in that instance would mean she was denying herself the service. If the absurd situation was allowed that they would be allowed to have their pictures taken with the veils on and avail themselves of the service with veils on, whole families could be using the same travel pass! Any reasonable person, including I do not doubt muslims, would agree with me. Muslim women! Please write in and agree loudly!

176

Andy man,

Niddrie 04/05/2007 11:17:28

Mr K

First of all if you had read my post you should have realised that it is an observation of the mentality of the scottish people not a comment about the actual issue at hand, so your comments about the laws of this country are not applicable.

My view on the actual issue was not aired.

Secondly, what exactly is a 'race card'.

In my experience peely wally scots have hardly any experience of discrimination in life, but are super quick in claiming that people are pulling out the race card.

I'm sorry Mr K, your just who i'm talking about. Go back to yer cave.

177

K,

04/05/2007 11:37:14

Andy man...you have made my day :)

"In my experience peely wally scots have hardly any experience of discrimination in life, but are super quick in claiming that people are pulling out the race card" - this comment is the most racially discriminating thing I have read on this thread...and I was beginning to think you were one of the more intelligent ones..

Have a lovely weekend.

AND...it's Miss K to you.

178

Just passing through,

04/05/2007 11:59:13

If she is paying cash, there is no issue.
If she is using a travel pass, obviously facial recognition is the means of proving ownership of the travel pass, and therefore purchase of the service. Refusal to show her face in that instance would mean she was denying herself the service. If the absurd situation was allowed that they would be allowed to have their pictures taken with the veils on and avail themselves of the service with veils on, whole families could be using the same travel pass! Any reasonable person, including I do not doubt muslims, would agree with me. Muslim women! Please write in and agree loudly!

179

WalkTheLine,

Edinburgh 04/05/2007 12:00:48

Well said Miss K.

180

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 04/05/2007 13:12:38

#184 Andy man

"I am shocked at how many people are posting comments like 'leave this country if ye dinny like it!'. Shame on you! You are an absolute disgrace to the Scottish race."

Andy your are obviously self-righteous, self satisfied and very biased.

What a lot of rubbish, break any of our Islamic friend's 'laws' in their lands and at the very least your on the plane out before you can say "Allah".

I have many friends and neighbours who are Muslims, I like the people, but find their religion abhorant and hypocritical in the extreme and guess what? Many of them agree!

Yes, not just Scotland, but the whole of the UK welcomes sanctuary seekers and those seeking new homes, employment, etc. which is why we are now being overrun by immigrants from Eastern Europe, etc. and guess what, these folks are being housed and given benefits without having to wait the qualifying period our nationals have to wait.


May I suggest that you change your posting title from "Andy Man" to "Carpet Man", then you can lie down and let everyone walk over you!! By the way, for Mecca face East.

181

TimW1234,

0ttawa, Canada 04/05/2007 14:16:52

MISS K

Please do shut up and stop being such a boring women of no real opinion or relevance.

182

LRT DRIVER,

Edinburgh 04/05/2007 14:42:56

I'm a bus driver and #10 mentioned that there must be a miniscule number that travels on our buses. I had an estimate of around 15 today that had smart cards. And before anyone asks no I didn't ask to lift their veils. (Their passes had their faces covered with veils)

183

LRT DRIVER,

Edinburgh 04/05/2007 14:44:47

SORRY TYPE ERROR!! #12 POSTED OPPINION NOT #10

184

Dougie - Edinburgh,

04/05/2007 14:51:58

169. LRT Bus Driver
So what's to stop the woman concerned borrowing a friend's driver licence at the same time as the friend's bus pass?

185

LRT DRIVER,

Edinburgh 04/05/2007 14:52:51

Oh, and another thing. Look at the picture. Since when do we pick up passengers in the bus depot?

186

Just passing through,

04/05/2007 15:20:43

Would a muslim woman PLEASE POST A COMMENT? Or do you all read the Sun?

187

K,

04/05/2007 15:49:53

Timothy Charles Wingate...

"Please do shut up and stop being such a boring women of no real opinion or relevance" - much like your post illustrates?

Is that "women" (plural) or did you mean "woman"?

Like Andy Man says - learn some grammar and spelling before posting something worth reading ESPECIALLY if you are slating someone else's post...Eejit.

188

Andy man,

Niddrie 04/05/2007 18:26:16

Miss K I apologise for assuming you were a man, I would also like to thank you. Thank you for making me take a 2nd look at what i had written (looking for my racist statement). You renewed in me a sense of accountability. My statement 'go back to yer cave' was reactionary & could be misconstrued. In reality it is no different from 'get back to your own country' so i thank you for reminding me that we all should be cautious in how we conduct ourselves with others.

That said, i see no justification that what i wrote was "the most racially discriminating thing…on this thread". I can only imagine you think that I’m not 'peely wally' & discriminating on skin colour. For the record I’m as white as a milk bottle, a bon fide 'peely wally' Scot.

In my family we have white, black, brown, catholic, Muslim & atheist’s & we all embrace ‘difference’. Scots have called us 'p**i' (though not from Pakistan), 'n****r', 'gypsy' etc. We have been assaulted, verbally abused, stones thrown at & spat at. We have experienced racism 1st hand & had to deal with the traumatic after-effects. I AM sick to the back teeth, of people abusing each other out of ignorance of the ‘other’, hence my emotional reaction.

The most ironic incident was when my white 2yr old daughter was taunted & called ‘ginger pubes’ because she has red hair! What is more Scottish than red hair! Some people just cannot deal with ‘difference’, how shameful.

I ask all, what is your experience of racism? Having an opinion is a lot different to experiencing something. What are we doing to solve this problem? Yeah, you could argue I’m self-righteous, but i don’t think anyone would disagree that issues such as racism and discrimination need to be tackled. Its not bias, it’s a problem we all share. If you’re not part of the solution your part of the problem.

People have missed my point, I am observing the mentality of us Scots. An 'us' & 'them' atmosphere is bein

189

Dougie - Edinburgh,

04/05/2007 23:31:17

200. Andy man, Niddrie

Save your sermon for another time, this article has got nothing to do with racism. It's entirely to do with whether people should be allowed to use photo identification to get a free bus ride without having to show that they're not using someone else's bus pass. It's exclusively a question of fairness vs. cheating and "Respect difference" doesn't even come into it.

190

DirtyDeeds,

01/04/2009 15:41:36
The Australians' have it spot on, somewhere in their doctrine are the words like "we welcome you and your cultures, beliefs and everything that you bring with to to nourish and enlighten our country. While we respect what you bring and give, you should respect and hold the same values for our culture" - it then goes on to say if you don't like our culture then leave.

That is the way it should be, if you don't like it - leave.

Integrate or leave.


 

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