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Scott warns of 'independence by back door'

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Published Date: 27 August 2008
NEWLY-ELECTED Lib Dem leader Tavish Scott today played down talk of his party supporting a multi-option referendum on Scottish independence.
He said the Lib Dems would do nothing which might bring about independence "by the back door", and said no decision would be taken until well into the future.

Mr Scott, a fierce opponent of a referendum during last year's election campaign, sparked speculation about a softening of his stance when he said yesterday: "We will see what legislation the SNP comes forward with".

His comments, which came after winning the Scottish Lib Dem leadership race, were seized on by the SNP as a shift in position. But asked today about the principle of a referendum offering the choices of independence, no change, or other options, he said: "I'm not sure how you could have a multi-option referendum in that sense.

"I think there's a real danger of independence getting in through the back door in that kind of construction of a referendum and I will not do anything that allows that."





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1

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 14:05:43
Here we go. More vituperative articles from this rag. This will only help it along the way to its own oblivion.
2

Highland Mighty©,

27/08/2008 14:18:57
For a start, keep on tearing apart Salmond's ridiculous economic 'masterplan' that the fast-diminishing oil supply will allow a multi-billion oil fund, tax cuts AND increased spending.

Then continue to highlight the increasing number of broken promises from the 'promise everything to everyone' SNP manifesto.

And also continue to discredit the numerous exaggerations and outright lies that come from the SNP and nationalist camp.

Labour's post-1997 honeymoon lasted 6 years, will the SNP even manage to last until the next election?
3

Linda,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 14:42:40
Highland Mighty also predicted SNP honeymoon would never happen.
SNP Scottish government has a can do attitute unlike last 8 years of the Labour / Lib Dem administration which wouldn't do anything in case it offended their London paymasters.
4

,

27/08/2008 14:55:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Climate change is a fraud,

27/08/2008 14:57:35
The only independence the Scots people want is indpendence from the EU.

VOTE UKIP in Glenrothes!
6

eamon,

27/08/2008 15:05:27
#2 highland slightly

Do you live in Scotland? Or even in the Highlands?You accuse the SNP of all sorts of things but dont back this up. In actual fact its the former government of Scotland that sold us down various rivers. I agree that the SNP have faults, but they do have the interests of Scotland at heart. its about time the other parties did the same. Plus you obviously know very little about our oil reserves. The potential reserves on the west are massive, plus we now have the technology to access them. I am in Norway just now, and the roads are superb, the infrastructure is wonderful. Everybody has access to the best education. Houses are well built and people are happy. This was built on oil. You claim to be a highlander, have you travelled from inverness to Aberdeen? Or down the A9? If we had been independent from the start we would have what Norway has. Its not too late either, we maybe cannot achieve what could have been, but at least we would not be pouring money into illeagal wars to blow up tents, instead using it for the benefit of our own people.
7

eamon,

27/08/2008 15:06:28
#6

Not this scot i am afraid. I want independence from people like you
8

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

27/08/2008 15:07:40
It'd be nice to have an option to become 51st in the United States of America.
9

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 15:22:58
That was a faster U-turn than Wendy! Quick call from Clegg in London was it...
10

Highland Mighty©,

27/08/2008 15:28:01
3. I predicted no such thing as every new government has a honeymoon period. I thought everyone knew that.

6. Norway's oil wealth is far higher than ours plus we have a heavily socialist mindset, which will always demand higher taxes and spending and which, in turn, will make a Norway-style fund even more unlikely.

Stop comparing Scotland to Norway as, apart from the oil, the two countries have next to nothing in common, especially when it comes to economics.
11

Highland Mighty©,

27/08/2008 15:33:02
4. You have forgotten the Barnett transfers that follow the initial block grant.

Any extra expenditure elsewhere in the UK is more than matched in Scotland.

Don't you know that?

(As you have copy/pasted this post on EVERY article, I'll do the same to ensure you see this correction to your error.)
12

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/08/2008 15:39:29


#11, at 15:33:02,

They're called "Barnett Consequentials" I believe. The problem is they are not being paid out these days are they? Anything to do with the colour of the Holyrood Government?

Yes, london labour ARE being petty minded and ARE trotting out a stream of meaningless excuses.

BUT, guess what? No one believes a word they say anymore.


13

Gere,

Scotland 27/08/2008 15:40:32
Posts #4 and #6

You have my vote on what you propose.

Freedom for Scotland!!!!!
14

Alan B,

27/08/2008 15:50:26
#Highland Mighty

The whole point about comparing scotland to other small countries in europe is to see how well we are doing.

It is inconvientent to your argument to compare scotlands performance to these other small european countries as they have outperformed us.
15

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 27/08/2008 15:53:05


Getting back to the article,

I actually agree with Tavish that we should steer clear of a multi-option referendum - though not for the same reason he dislikes this idea.

The main problem would be a "back door" result for ANY final answer. This would only lead to further spin/re-assessment of such an answer.

The posibility of the Country becoming Independent once more is far too important to have ANY risk of fudge.

However, we all know that this is not the plan. When Tavish says - "We will see what legislation the SNP comes forward with" one wonders where he has been lately.

Even I, as an ordinary member of the public, know that the legislation bill will be laid on the 25th of January 2010; the Referendum will be held on the 30th of November 2010; and the wording of the Referendum has been published ALREADY. There have even been
quite a number of opinion polls conducted using this very question. The new Libdem leader is, of course, just sitting on the fence - I'm sure he'll come round in due course.


16

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 27/08/2008 15:54:07
Independence by the back door, there we have it,a party leader who cannot even think up his own line in rubbish.

Fancy spouting thes ame tripe the Labour party were using years ago!
17

Highland Mighty©,

27/08/2008 16:09:13
14. Scotland's economy (as has much of the UK's) has grown at 4-5% a year over the past decade, outstripping the growth of many European countries.

Only the SNP tries to say that our economy has been floundering. One look at the urban development and regeneration, high employment, job creation, influx of finance/bio-med/high-tech/high-value industry etc. that has swept the country over this period, can see that it's the the SNP are avoiding any facts that are inconvenient to their case.
18

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 27/08/2008 16:20:40
Where does he stand on the 10% oil fund? Joe Grimmond, a Shetland MP, ensured that Shetland got a good deal. Will Mr. Scott, as a Shetland MSP who no doubt like his predecessor desires to be First Minister, deny the rest of Scotland a fair deal?

When are the Lib Dems going to start pushing their beliefs, such as belief in a Local Income Tax, which they have been all but silent on in recent months? Surely, with some negotiation with the SNP, this could have been delivered by now. So why have they been so reticent?

As for the multi-option referendum: the SNP have suggested in the past that they are open to the idea. But if it happens the Lib Dems will have to put forward their case, of what they stand for (not just that they dislike the SNP). I thought they stood for federalism but the F word is rarely used by the Lib Dems these days and they have certainly expended no energy on arguing its merits. What, then, are the merits of federalism? And are the Lib Dems even able to deliver on this issue?
19

Alan B,

27/08/2008 16:34:11
#Highland Mighty

The growth rate of the scottish economy has averaged 2.2% over the last decade. Less than 2% over the past 30yrs (1.8%).

The uk economy has grown at 2.8%.

The small european countries that make up the arc of prosperity have grown at 3.6%.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/11/30090722/2

20

Highland Mighty©,

27/08/2008 16:59:29
21. I've repeatedly warned you two about relying partisan sources!

Using UN WTO records of GDP growth:
Scotland's GDP per capita 1994 = £17,583
Scotland's GDP per capita 2004 = £33,214

That equates to roughly 5% growth per annum. A little bit more than the 2.8% claimed by the SNP, don't you think,
21

democracy,

Scottish Borders 27/08/2008 17:18:31
#22 High and Shighty,who in hells name do you think you are, repeatedly warning people, you stupid little nonentity, with your own pathetic little partisan figures, nobody is interested in your own grubby little world!!
22

eamon,

27/08/2008 17:31:03
#22
You told me to stop comparing Scotland to Norway as they have nothing in common. I trust you either know nothing about Norway or nothing about Scotland. What you say about socialist mindset and oil funds is rubbish. And higher spending in Scotland? what do we spend it on? certainly not roads, bridges, schools, upkeep, looking after our pensioners, the future. it seems our wealth is spent on olympic arenas for london and illegal wars. The SNP has Scotlands interests at heart. Can you honestly say the same for any of the other major parties.
23

democracy,

Scottish Borders 27/08/2008 17:34:55
Most countries in the world who achieve independence see their peoples cheering in the streets at their new found freedom and rightly so, because it is the normal state to be in.
Not apparently in Scotland, there are those who would cheer in the streets if they secured dependency and they are called 'Scottish Unionists', the ones who want their nation to be governed by a foreign country for eternity.
They must be named as the weirdest and most ignorant of any countries people anywhere!!!

The so called 'Union' has NEVER had a democratic mandate to even exist at all!!
24

Alan B,

27/08/2008 17:34:55
#Highland Mighty

It is the uk governments own figures that claim 2.8% for the uk.

Pick up an economist magazine. Most developed countries growth between 2-4%.

Gordon Brown upgraded the sustainable uk growth to 2.5% a while ago, ie the growth rate by which he thinks the uk economy can grow without igniting inflation.

While i am sure you are using some calculation that inflates growth figures i, like the other posters are taking about the headline gdp growth.

The last time i remember uk growth exceding 4% was back in the late 80s.
25

Alan B,

27/08/2008 17:38:27
#Highland Mighty

An independent link on uk economic growth

http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/spee30_p.html

That shows that uk growth was between 2.5% to 3% over the past period of time.
26

Alan B,

27/08/2008 17:41:04
#Highland Mighty

Uk government document. Same 2.*% growth rate for UK.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:VbGtYI8NzmwJ:www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/6/C/spend04_sciencedoc_4a_090704.pdf+uk+growth+rates+average+decade&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=23&gl=uk
27

Alan B,

27/08/2008 17:49:16
#Highland Mighty

Nice graph that shows both scotland and uk growth rates.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/TrendLongerGDP
28

Alan B,

27/08/2008 17:58:09
#Highland Mighty

This a good table that shows economic growth comparisons. None of the westerns countries get anything like 5% growth.

http://investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/env/stats/gdp_growth.html
29

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

27/08/2008 18:32:28
2 Highland Mighty©, 27/08/2008 14:18:57

"....For a start, keep on tearing apart Salmond's ridiculous economic 'masterplan' that the fast-diminishing oil supply will allow a multi-billion oil fund, tax cuts AND increased spending....."

So lets for instant imagine that Scotland remains part of the UK, according to you and others, we are already in fiscal deficit and that's with the amount of oil that we have now.

Is it it fair that the rest of the UK should be expected to bail Scotland out whilst the oil runs dry?

Why should someone in London be paying an increasing share for Scottish Health Services

That is the scenario that you are supposing and the LIE that you are peddling.
.


30

,

27/08/2008 18:45:33
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31

BIG EYE,

Paisley 27/08/2008 19:57:14
I just burst out laughing when I heard this numpty come out with the "Independence by the back door" routine.

If you want it in the front door just support a referendum and it will soon arrive.

But of course Tavish you know that and you are lending your foot along with the Tories and Labour Party to deny the Scots entrance through the front door by a referendum.

You hope to dam the hordes but they will gain entry through an open window, the back door or any gap that presents itself.

Like the tide itself it will rise to the point where either entry will be achieved or the whole rotten unionist structure will be swept away at an election.

The current Unionist position on a referendum is not sustainable, Scotland will win out either by a referendum or the complete humiliation of all the unionist parties at the polls.

Like a straw that cannot bend to the wind, the Lib Dems will be completely broken if they stay with their current policy on the referendum.
32

Nevsky,

Moscow 27/08/2008 20:51:22
I think someone should point out to Tavish exactly how the union came about. What a joke.

To thinks that a Scot would even make this statement on the independence of his own country makes me want to cowk!
33

Calum Crubag,

Dùn Eideann 27/08/2008 20:58:10
Tavish was pretty bad yesterday on telly. All the Olypmics cac was a bit childish. He's not very inspring but then, he's very Lib Dem.

Lets hope the LDs just die peacefully.
34

Eve,

Scotland 27/08/2008 21:12:30
Travis thinks that if theres a referndum on Scottish Independence then the people would go out and vote for it. Amasing who the Lib dems are very confident in this matter, that they think they'll try and make sure the Scots don't have a say.

------------------------------------------------------------
What theres a door?

I thought it was a barrier, in frount of Scottish indpendence no a door.


35

Nevsky,

Moscow 27/08/2008 21:17:11
No wonder they favour the r system of voting. Without it their uninspiring and frankly meningless party would have dissapeared 10 years ago.

The Lib and Lib Dems used to have MPs due to the personal vote in places like the Highlands and Aberdeenshire but i think even that is under threat.

They, just like the Labour party have completely misread the Scottish public and still tell the Scots what they want instead of listening to their aspirations..no wonder they are a non-entity.

Still at least Tavish will have some scone competitons to jusge in Shetland.
36

,

27/08/2008 21:40:24
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37

WHISTLEBLOWER,

gdgdg 27/08/2008 22:18:13
A referendum is the front door.

If only Nicol Stephen and Tavish Scott were bright enough to work that one out.
38

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 22:25:34
#11 Not true. Brown has avoided giving Scotland its Barnett consequentials on numerous occasions.

Don't you know that?
39

Traquir , Alba,

27/08/2008 22:27:08
Interesting how the English papers seem to pick up the Scottish
news first.

From the Times :

"Head of Gordon Brown's old school may stand in Glenrothes"

see - tinyurl.com/6prlla

So we have candidate number four. I wonder if
he as scary in person as his picture makes him look.
Looks like the tactic might now be to give all voters
that consider voting the SNP the strap :)
Another cunning ploy courtesy of Labour .
40

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 22:31:56
#34 Me too!
41

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 27/08/2008 23:14:07
Just donated my £500 towards the SNP Glenrothes campaign and got a nice thank-you email from Jim Henderson, Party Fundraiser.

Do your bit fellow Nats, give all you can afford. Do it online.

42

BIG EYE,

Paisley 27/08/2008 23:16:51
For someone who declares that the constitutional issue is not an issue poor Tavish has spoken about nothing else since he became the latest Liberal leader.

On Newnight tonight he has been all over the place, having spent five minutes trying to imply that he might be in support of a referendum if it was on a multi option basis he was finally cornered by Gordon Brewer and stated that a multi option referendum couldn't work.

Why? Because it might result in Independence "by the backdoor"

How is this possible Tavish, people would have to vote for it?

What Tavish was really saying was that he favours a referendum on "more powers" without the option of Independence.

The confusing and pathetic thing about this is he still uses the word democrat in the name of his party.

Tavish your views would have welcomed in the Soviet Union, you seem comfortable denying your people their democratic rights. You are a disgrace and your leadership of the Lib Dems will only help nationalists redouble thir efforts to win Scotland's freedom.
43

PaulW,

Borders 27/08/2008 23:24:30
Ignore Highland Mighty. Don't waste your time on an economic illiterate. To reassure those who may have read his drivel at #22:

ONS regional accounts data show Scotland having just 1.9% growth in GVA over the period 1995-2005 (latest year for which data have been published) in real terms, after deducting inflation. UK growth was 2.8% p.a. The WTO figures Highland malfunction quotes are in current prices and must be converted to constant prices before quoting a growth rate. Major malfunction, by the Highland Numbnuts.

Anyway ignore him. He is a tube.
44

democracy,

Scottish Borders 27/08/2008 23:55:20
#44 Bull, you are having a laugh, yes?
If not, then you resemble 2 short planks and are well named!!
45

John PM,

Edinburgh 27/08/2008 23:57:17
Sitting on the fence as usual, what a shock!
46

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 28/08/2008 07:42:52
The UK is a system; a system for redistributing poverty. It's not a nation, a democracy or a thing that's held in any affection. Athletes play for team Great Britain. It's the territory and a typical geographic description.

I've heard that regular meditation is beneficial. Tavish has been meditating on the plight of the common man. Who may have a wage but not the generous expense account culture of a special man like an MP or media person. Affordable housing is surely desired in this often wet and cold place - and as the common man sees it. The distant government's job may not be to provide it - a regional or local authority/ housing association would do this better - but at least it shouldn't prevent or hamper it though its legal systems of land-ownership and non-planning.

Necessity is said to be the mother of invention but we need leisure to advance it. James Watt developed his skills from a background of precision engineering (ship navigation tools) and the then democratic climate of Glasgow, where professors talked and listened to workmen , nurtured it. Did "scottish money" back it? Not really - it's an age-old failing.

Invention needs inventors. The 20th century provided them in abundance yet we seem trapped in the poverty and warfare of hydrocarbon and nuclear economics. Competition! when I hear that word I wipe it out, as old Rockefeller might have said.

This Universe is energy abundant. And the prototype machinery has been built and tested to provide it from non-polluting ways. So called "little nations" are the pioneering future. Super-powers mean to restrict this new technology to building , say, a better B2 bomber.

System UK colaborates with the very worst of american, european and asiatic society. Criminal planet you might call it. Climate change? No, it's far worse than that. Whether the globe is warming or cooling as you measure it, we're sleep-walking into overall ecological catastrophy. Non independence could be fatal!

Earth Proje
47

Talorthane,

28/08/2008 10:30:41
'independence by back door'

This phrase has become common currency of late.

However, the only people who tend to use the phrase are MPs or MSPs from Scottish unionist opposition parties.

You don't hear non-politicians use it.

It also seems to only be used in reference to holding a referendum, and surrounds anxiety of the questions that may be used.

It seems that these politicians consider democracy to have a strange dynamic.

They seem to believe that democracy operates at its best when the decisions are removed as far as possible from the electorate.

Conversely, when you engage directly with the electorate, then the result is automatically questionable because the electorate may have made the wrong decision.
48

John Jamieson,

Edinburgh 28/08/2008 10:54:47
1/ Tavish does not want an independent Scotland.
2/ Tavish will not allow the Scots to have a choice in the matter.
3/ Tavish knows what is best for you.
49

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 28/08/2008 11:51:42
#37 and 38 - it will take a lot more than opinion poll rating to eliminate the Liberal party from UK (or narrow minded Scottish if you prefer)politics. Many have tried but all have failed in this conquest. The truth does prevail but we recognise the truth often hurts and people prefer the fairy tale type endings Salmond and co conjure up to win (or should I say borrow) votes now and again. I'm sure Tavish Scott will be up to the task of disarming wee Aik when the time comes.
50

Steve 'The Nugget' Davis,

Edinburgh 28/08/2008 12:27:47
The way that a referendum on independence is set up should not be a party political issue. In the interests of fairness, independence should only be allowed to come about as a result of a majority of the participating electorate voting for it.

I don't see how you can get independence through anything other than a yes/no ballot paper. If the majority vote 'no' then you can look at extending the remit of devolution via a further ballot.
51

Talorthane,

28/08/2008 12:30:57
#57 Liberal for Life

The problem with living by commitments, such as "Liberal for Life", is that you make a decision that your principle is more important than any new facts or changes in circumstance that may develop in the future.

As such, your opinion becomes no more than dogma, and your judgement selective.

I presume that you didn't just decide to follow the Lib Dems recently, and that this commitment was made some time ago.

At that time, what were your expectations of the Lib Dems?

And how have they lived up to those expectations?

If youjoined before the elections of last year, it may be reasonable to assume that they would make every attempt to pursue the policies that they outlined in the manifesto for that election.

How do you feel about turning down the chance to join the SNP in government, when most impartial observers felt that the two parties shared about 80% of their objectives.

How do you feel that the Scottish Lib Dem (Dem for Democratic) Party turned down this opportunity purely on the basis that they would not allow the electorate to have a say in the country's future through the greatest of democratic mechanisms; a referendum?

The only other explanation to be offered was that they felt that a period of opposition would be good for the party. How do you square that with the commitment sin the manifesto? This promised what they would do if they got into government, not what they would do in opposition.

In deciding to reject the opportunity of Government, how much of their manifesto have they managed to implement? More or less than 80%? How do you feel about that?
52

eamon,

28/08/2008 17:55:16
#59 talorthane

That was very well put.
53

,

28/08/2008 18:22:46
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