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Wednesday, 4th November 2009 Change Date Latest Issue

Labour Party turmoil: 'There's a gulf between Brown and Alexander'

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Published Date: 10 May 2008
LAST weekend, Gordon Brown must have thought things could not get much worse. On top of the gloomy economic outlook and the continuing fallout from the 10p tax row, Labour had just suffered its worst drubbing in the local elections in England and Wales for 40 years.
But he had not bargained on Wendy Alexander, his erstwhile ally, going on television and announcing an ill-thought out U-turn on the party's attitude to an independence referendum.

Her decision to call for a vote as soon as possible on the SNP's
flagship policy took everyone by surprise and plunged the party into instant turmoil. It has dominated the news agenda ever since.

But a tactic designed to paint the Nationalists as "scared" to call a referendum on their key policy has instead left Ms Alexander looking flat-footed.

In one fell swoop, she has managed to embarrass the Prime Minister, double the size of Alex Salmond's grin and alienate the other opposition leaders, Annabel Goldie and Nicol Stephen.

However, Mr Brown's own handling of the issue when it was raised at Prime Minister's Questions made the situation even worse. Not only did he fail to back Ms Alexander, he tried to claim she had not called for an immediate referendum and added that "further decisions" would wait till after the Calman commission reported on more powers for Holyrood.

It is clear there is now a gulf between Mr Brown and Ms Alexander on one of the most important and potentially far-reaching issues of the times.

But Ms Alexander's decision to back a referendum means such a vote is now almost inevitable.

She would like a straight choice between independence or the Union – and Malcolm Chisholm has suggested the question should focus on remaining part of the UK. But as David McLetchie points out, Holyrood could be blocked on legal grounds from posing such a direct question and it may be the SNP's wording, asking for approval to negotiate independence, that has to be accepted.

Contrary to Labour's claims, the SNP has been consistent about its 2010 referendum date. But Ms Alexander still has a point about Mr Salmond's unwillingness to put independence to the test before then.

If Labour is going to stick to its new policy, the party now needs to take the fight to the SNP – but it needs to plan it better than Ms Alexander planned last weekend's spectacular own goal.





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  • Last Updated: 10 May 2008 10:36 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

SeriouslyAmused,

Ayr 10/05/2008 11:25:10
"But Ms Alexander still has a point about Mr Salmond's unwillingness to put independence to the test before then."

No she does not. The point is, the only point is, Ms Alexander made a fool of herself and perhaps, just perhaps, in her internal confusion, voiced her own real fears, and that is Labour meltdown which puts her, and her bro, out of a job. So what to do? Create merry hell, with no regard to her leader Brown, to ensure some kind of glory for herself.

If, and its a big and pointless if, Salmond agreed to her ridiculous posturing, a referendum took place and the result was independence, then she could say she was the real saviour of Scotland, that all along she knew the Scots were ready for it. And it it went the other way, she would at least be guaranteed votes for retaining the union and keep her job in the Scottish parliament, whilst Cameron ruled from Westminster.

She's clever in some ways, but totally myopic in others. Like most Labour politicians all they see is their own futures and how to sustain them, not the futures of the rest of the country. Annabel Goldie was right in her attack on Alexander. But she could have made it clearer, but then, perhaps that would expose the unionist politicians' raison d'etre too much.
2

M.T.,

10/05/2008 11:33:51
"Contrary to Labour's claims, the SNP has been consistent about its 2010 referendum date. But Ms Alexander still has a point about Mr Salmond's unwillingness to put independence to the test before then."

Britain needs stability
Scotland needs stability
The public needs stability
Business needs stability

Would having a referendum at this moment in time create stability?????????

NO!!!!!!
3

Neil McCart,

Cheltenham 10/05/2008 11:54:56
Whatever the gulf between Brown and his "puppet" Alexander, there is an even bigger gulf between Brown and the population of the UK as a whole.
4

John S,

10/05/2008 12:26:11
The next UK GE which must be held on or before 3rd June 2010, it may suit the SNP to wait until that is out of the way then hold a referendum. If dithering Gordon had went to the country last Oct and won then the next UK GE would have been in 2013/14.
5

steve 1511,

aberdeen 10/05/2008 12:34:07
wendy alexander the best that labour has in scotland we are told,postures like a wee ned,behaves like an eejit,and was lucky to escape with wendys bungsgate,the women is a dunderheid who represents her self and has no concern for the voters of scotland .begone i say begone
6

,

10/05/2008 12:52:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Hmm ...,

10/05/2008 13:11:57
... Steve 1511 sums up Wendy's character quite well but just how does he think she differs from any of the other Labour placemen that litter our Parliament?

And I agree with Genuine that Labour has no one of any ability at all. (This agreeing with Genuine is getting to be a habit)!
8

me150,

10/05/2008 13:26:02
Wendy should be booted out urgently so the party at least have some resemblence of a chance later.

As far as the referendum is concerned....SNP want it in 2010/11 because they know that by then the Tories will be in charge of the UK and that will be incentive enough for the Tory hating public in Scotland to vote with the SNP.

Wendy wants it brought forward because it gives the Scottish voters an opportunity to decide while they know there is still a choice.

Very much political wrangling by the SNP who are still scared they would lose the vote with a Labour governmant in place.

This means that Scotland is very liklely to become independent but not because of any SNP effectiveness but because of the same reason why SNP are where they are now, the objection vote, but this time against the Tories.

I for one will still vote against independence, and the SNP, even though, in the short to medium term, we will be under Tory rule because once the Tories screw it all up again we will have a fully functional regrouped Labour Party ready to take over.
9

karinxxx,

10/05/2008 13:47:55
8 nice to see the unionists finally accepting that the people of scotland have the right to determine their own future............
10

me150,

10/05/2008 14:02:47
#9

That has never been a question, as far as I am concerned, of course the Scots should choose.

The question must be ... are we going to get full information to be able to determine for ourselves what is best?

That cannot be done with an odd question or two. Full and complete disclosure by all parties interested is required. Anyone who votes for such a life changing event as this without having full knowledge needs their head seen to, unfortunately by reading these forums that includes just about every single SNP supporter who only seem interested in independence regardless of the long term impact.
11

Hmm ...,

10/05/2008 14:19:32
... Me150 #8 said "Wendy wants it brought forward because it gives the Scottish voters an opportunity to decide while they know there is still a choice."

A choice being to decide now or later whether to stay in a UK governed by the Tories, who Me says will be in charge anyway?

I don't quite grasp this reasoning - let's decide before the Tories come to power in the UK because we are more likely to stay in before they take over from this fag-end Labour government?

My main dilemna is whether we should cast England off to get away from Labour in Westminster just when it looks as though the rejuvenated Tories will stop the over-regulated dogma-driven nanny government in its tracks.

And as Annabel Goldie said this week, such an important issue should not be driven by our loathing of the incredibly unpopular Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander!

She made a very good point.

The question is whether, having built the British Empire and got precious little thanks for it from England, we Scots want to cast them adrift, now that we are the "last colony" for England to asset strip.

Or whether we should continue to subsidise England simply because that is what we do.

What a dilemna, particularly having seen the calibre of the Labour politician pressing us to keep England on.
12

megz,

glasgow 10/05/2008 14:28:42
As much as i welcome wendy's conversion to the right to have a referendum (though it is more for her party's political interests than scotlands) i must question why she started the calman commission in the first place, which incidently rules out any talk of independence. Then turn round and demand a referendum takes place before it reports. Should we have a referendum and the people vote for independence then what would be the point of the review when it would be completely irrelevant to an independent Scotland?

It doesn't make any sense, but i will say thank god she isn't running the country i dread to think what sort of state we would be in!
13

Hmm ...,

10/05/2008 15:25:38
... Megz (12) said "It doesn't make any sense, but i will say thank god she isn't running the country i dread to think what sort of state we would be in!"

Pretty much the mess we are in already - it was inept Labour both at Westminster and Holyrood who got Scotland into the state it is in - overtaxed, over-regulated, underfunded and dogma-driven. With spurious Green taxes that serve no ecological purpose, roads that have been abandoned since 1997 when existing improvement contracts were cancelled, prisons creaking at the seams, so violent prisoners are released to "open" prisons or curfew. A profligate government that can't raise enough taxes to meet its spending demands, resulting in a raft of purely money-raising "fines" for minor misdemeanours and the appointment of local authority employees whose job is to raise this revenue from hard-working families - the very people that Labour claim to represent.

And they have the gall to think that their incredibly low popularity is purely because they have withdrawn the ten pence tax from the poorest!

Do we want more of the same? I don't think so!
14

me150,

10/05/2008 15:27:16
#11

You seem top miss the whiole point.

Whereas the Tories are bad news for Britain, the SNP are terrible news for Scotland.

I can live with the bad news until a rejigged Labour Party replaces the Tories. Once Scotland is independent there will de a disasterous mess needing cleaned up once Labour gets back to where it belongs.

All you, and it would appear most other SNP supporters, want to do is seperate from the English regardless of any long term impact. SNP have never, to this point, displayed any ability to be able to successfully run the country and should not be allowed to make any more mess until they can prove, at least on paper, that they can..


#12

Have you ever heard of change?

Things change and decisions need to change to work with other changes. A politician or political party is barrated every single time they change a policy.

It takes a better person to make changes than it does one to stick with decisions even when it is obvious change is needed.

If you expect, or want, SNP to never change their minds about anything then you had better get off the bandwagon as soon as you can or you will be left bitterly disappointed, which is how you will ultimately feel anyway.
15

Hmm ...,

10/05/2008 15:28:04
... still no word of Wendy's resignation?
16

Hmm ...,

10/05/2008 15:31:05
... Me150 (14) said "I can live with the bad news until a rejigged Labour Party replaces the Tories."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Thanks, this argument needed a bit of levity!
17

me150,

10/05/2008 15:31:23
#13

Going by the finacial decisions made so far by your preferred choice, the SNP, things are going to change. It is a shame that the changes are going to be negative.

The increases in budgetary requirements combined with the reduction of fiscal income simply do not balance. The SNP have a situation where these policies cannot be sustained without other major cuts or tax increases.

The mathematics prove this, not political opinion.
18

Hmm ...,

10/05/2008 15:40:52
...oh dear Me! Your comment #17 begs discussion.

Of course the SNP's ambitions and efforts on behalf of Scotland have problems when obstructd by the remnants of Labour's profligacy!

To have to waste £500 million on Edinburgh's tram line when the country is crying our for the replacement of the killer A9, to have to cope with a ten year backlog of maintenance that Labour couldn't bring itself to carry out and to try to replace Labour's ten years' worth of dogma-driven policies with sensible progress all within a four year parliamentary life demands real ability.

Thank goodness that the SNP is showing signs that it has that. Unlike Labour who have done nothing for Scotland since they were elected.

Even their much vaunted devolution was intended to secure a permanent Lab/LibDem control, not benefit Scotland.

Sorry - you're deluded.
19

Edward,

10/05/2008 16:03:02
Scotland would be a very capable country being Independent. I find it amusing that comments like
'Once Scotland is independent there will de a disasterous mess needing cleaned up once Labour gets back to where it belongs'
This is a very dilutional statement! First of all the current Scottish Government are doing a fine job, despite being a minority administration. The Scottsih government are progressive and dynamic, something that the previous administrion were not!
As for Labour reforming and taking its rightful place, this is so breathtaking in its arrogance. Labour have absolutely no god given right to be in permanent control of Scotland. A party or any supporter that believes this is totally of their head!. We live in a democracy, as such its the people that decide who governs.
The only correct part is that Labour should reform, it should have reformed 20 years ago in Scotland. It has to be totally independent of London, as does the other parties. They have to reflect better the country the serve
20

me150,

10/05/2008 20:52:12
I am afraid that it you you fanatical SNP followers that are deluded.

You obviously lack the intelligence to assess a situation and make a balanced decision or have a balanced opinion.

I think that it is wasted breathe discussing such an important issue with people obsessed with independence.

We will see in a few years exactly the damage SNP are causing.

21

Hmm ...,

10/05/2008 21:42:53
... sorry, Me - you have the wrong end of the stick. I am not an SNP supporter.

But I do applaud the changes the SNP is making to our political life, bringing energy, vision and, particularly, ability to what was a comfortable but totally inert organisation, occupied by party placemen who saw it as a gravy train, not an opportunity to benefit Scotland other than so far as it suited their dogma.

God help us if Labour ever actually recover. We'll be back into the 20th Century class war again.

No, I am not an SNP supporter - I just loathe Labour and its prejudices but I do like what I have seen of the SNP's government.

So in this, too, you are deluded!
22

me150,

10/05/2008 23:55:11
But you all still fail to recognise the facts about the poor bookkeeping of the SNP.

Look deeper and YOU WILL find big holes in it.

If the SNP carry on down this path they will certainly bankrupt Scotland. Of course that won't happen because they will do some U-turns of their own, increase taxes and do some considerable cutbacks, which have already started.

If you cannot be bothered to do some research you are pathetic for blindly following any party.
23

Rosie,

Edinburgh 11/05/2008 00:06:02
What fair bookkeeping of the SNP? Until they have the books to keep... how can you tell?
24

me150,

11/05/2008 00:20:03
OK Rosie so you fall into the bracket of cannae be bothered even looking.

Unfortunately it is lazy no hopers like you, and there are many, that are about to be responsible for failure of this Country.

I hope you are happy withyourself just burying your head in the sand or is it SH**?
25

me150,

11/05/2008 09:34:20
Yes Labour left some stupid legacies, as every party do including SNP Forth Bridge toll episode, but the facts remain facts regarding the black hole in SNP accounting and I simply cannopt believe that even the few people here that seem to have some intelligemce simply do not and will not do some simple research just to check the facts.

It is irresponsible to an extreme. Have a look you will be surprised.
26

Hmm ...,

11/05/2008 15:03:56
... it is interesting to see Me's pitch and a thought crosses my mind - perhaps if labour had not been so consistently venal and inept, to say nothing of dogma-driven, the SNP would not be welcomed as a breath of fresh air - so the SNP's huge and rising popularity is the fault of inept Labour!
27

me150,

11/05/2008 22:40:55
Actually quite a lot of you should consider becoming politicians as you have the natural attributes to be successful.

Arrogant
Ignorant
Confrontational
Avoid the point
Pick petty points and not answer what is asked
Interested in self satisfaction
Fail to seek the facts
Change the subject because the current one doesn't suit you
Blind belief you are right even when the evidence is stacked against you
Foolishly believe your ideals
Foolishly believe ill put together polls
Refuse to put political bias aside to analyse policies
Refusal to see that just sometimes the other man, or party, might be right


As stated over the past months I have made my point and you will be pleased to hear that from now I will observe your rantings and have the last laugh.
28

glassbenmhor,

12/05/2008 04:50:32

THE SCOTTISH INDEPENDENT LABOUR PARTY

"it's coming yet for a' that"
29

glassbenmhor,

12/05/2008 04:57:00
Gordon Brown, Browne, the UK lead Labour Party,

Scottish electorate betrayal, Membership leaving unpaid subscriptions in their droves.

Everybody in the Party with head in hands,

Alex Salmond the new "Hammer of the Scots" (labour Scots that is)

Call for the psychiatrist to No.10

 

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