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Door steward bosses want licence fee plan thrown out

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Published Date:
01 February 2007
SECURITY company bosses have hit out at new legislation which will force nightclub bouncers to fork out hundreds of pounds for a licence.
All guards and door stewards will soon have to pay £245 to work in the industry, on top of a further £100 to £200 for the training needed to get the licence.

Security bosses in the Capital are worried the costs will be too much for their employees, especially those who just work part-time. The Security Industry Authority (SIA) is launching the licence today in Scotland.

Currently, stewards in Scotland are only licensed by local authorities and not by the SIA, which at the moment just covers those working in England and Wales.

From November it will be illegal for security guards to work in the industry without an SIA licence.

Company bosses in Edinburgh are frustrated by the costs involved with the new legislation.

Because the licences are granted to individuals and will last them three years, most companies are reluctant to fork out the money to pay for their employees' training and licences in case the staff quit shortly afterwards.

Mark Hamilton, managing director of Edinburgh-based security firm Rock Steady, has hit out against the high cost of the licence fee.

He said: "That's a big shout for part-time workers.

"My own company, along with 14 others who all met in Glasgow the other day, are asking to delay the increase, giving people time to raise the cash - considering it takes another £300 to train people. Fifteen thousand people are working in the industry in Scotland."

Granton-based Clockwork Security employs between 20 and 25 guards who will be faced with the hefty fees.

Manager Gavin Deauville said: "Security is not a very highly paid job. Most of the people working in the security industry make between minimum wage and £6.50 per hour so it's not a high-paying job.

"Having to pay this fee is difficult for them, but they don't have much choice, especially if they have been doing security for a number of years, as they might find it difficult to move into another career.

"We are going to help subsidise our employees who have been with us for a while and who are going to stick around, but we are not going to pay for all of it."

Despite his concerns about the costs associated with the licence, Mr Deauville added that he can see the benefits.

He said: "In one way it's great to weed out the cowboys and to improve the perception of the industry and legislate the industry, but it's just the costs involved that's the problem."

A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland said: "

The Scottish Police Service looks forward to working with the SIA and the security industry in the future in this important area of policing."

People working in the security guard industry will be able to apply to the SIA for a licence from today and will have until November to become fully licensed.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 February 2007 1:23 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 01/02/2007 12:14:52

This seems reasonable to me, given the number of people who have been beaten up by them, or barred for no valid reason. If they didn't want legislation then they should have taken action to prevent thugs working in the industry.

2

paul the binman,

01/02/2007 12:15:39

Here here,lets get back to the good old days when it was the bouncers that caused alot of the problems.Lets get back to the criminal elements who used to run the doors,at least it was easier to find the drug dealers then.

3

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 13:02:33

this newspaper were informed of this taken place on 13/1/07 but becuase it wasnt national company showing concerns did nothing,this was the press release sent to the scotsman/evening news
Pub and club door staff outraged at Government's latest increase in licence fees.

Members of the "Working The Doors" Lobby Group, the UK's largest website forum for pub and club security staff, and our 2,000+ registered forum members are totally opposed to the increased cost of obtaining an Security Industry Authority (SIA) licence to be able to continue working.

4

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 13:15:02

The forum says: "It was originally estimated by the SIA that approximately 100,000 door supervisors would need licences (a figure we still agree with), although only 67,725 have been issued to date. The main reasons for this lack of compliance (about 32,000 doormen still working without a licence) with the law have been:

the expense of the licence

the time and processes involved with getting one

the strict (some would say overly-strict) vetting criteria

the lack of enforcement by the SIA for those that don’t comply.

5

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 13:18:11

you can get further information on the problems the Security Industry Authority have cuased and door stewards concerns here; http://www.workingthedoors.co.uk/

6

Ricardo Fi YIC,

01/02/2007 13:54:40

GOOD.......

7

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 14:04:00

6. Ricardo Fi YIC; good, explain how 110,000 job losses in england and wales is good mate,probably another 10,000 job losses in scotland.

8

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 14:07:57

further to this you can sign a petition to stop this in the uk by signing it here; http://www.workingthedoors.co.uk/
http://www.excalibursecurity.net/first.html
and we now how MSP'S mp's & mep;s working on our behalf as the S.I.A are in breach of the rehabilitation of offenders act
and in breach of european human right.

9

theman,

the 'ferry 01/02/2007 14:16:13

Excalibur Security - explain to me why "door stewards" shouldn't have to pay a licence and training fees?

Surely it's better to have stricter rules and regulations on "stewards" who handle and deal with members of the public?

10

sazz,

Edinbra 01/02/2007 14:38:39

#8

'are in breach of the rehabilitation of offenders act
and in breach of european human right.'

Can you explain exactly HOW the new licensing is against these particular acts?

11

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 14:52:16

im not saying doorstewards shouldnt pay a licence fee or for training but,the training must be adequate for the purpose,but the level2 door supervisors course(S.I.A) isnt compared to what most doorstewards had trained in under local authority control at a fraction of costs,the local authority licence cost £40 per year whereas the S.I.A licence £190. at present for 3yrs but can and no doubt will change to annually. we all agree that the industry does need regulating,but the Security industry authority isnt a regulative body,they are just a licensing authority. so hopefully that answers your question no 9

12

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 15:01:27

sazz10; the s.i.a are exempt from the rehabilitation of offenders act and many good door stewards in england and wales and soon in scotland have and will lose there right to gain a licence, under ythe rehabilitation of offenders act as the S.I.A state "fit & proper person" clause.
as for european human rights, they are stopping people who have held local authority licences for years from being employed in the industry. check out there own site see for yourself; http://www.the-sia.org.uk/home you can also check there online criminal records check on yourself,even with no convictions it doesnt say you will get a licence, http://www.the-sia.org.uk/home/licensing/door_supervision...

13

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 15:09:41

Thank you for your email to the SIA. Please find below our response to
your enquiry.

The purpose of the SIA is to manage the licensing of the private
security industry as set out in the Private Security Industry Act 2001.

The SIA is a licensing authority and not a regulatory body. The SIA
does not stipulate specific duties, roles or responsibilities for licence
holders beyond the information published on our website,
www.the-sia.org.uk. this was an e-mail reply to several questions asked of the s.i.a , they dont have the man power or the capabilty to enforce it properly and the reason for the increase in the licence fee is due to them being in dept and even after 13million fron treasury they are still in 6 figure dept, check out the R.I.A HERE; A copy of the RIA can be downloaded from the Home Office website or from the SIA website.

14

Scaramouche,

01/02/2007 15:29:48

Guardians of the Door
Guardians of the Door
We'll guard it on our own
And against it you'll be thrown
Like a dog without a bone
And a thug who's out on loan
Guardians of the Door

We're licensed door-guys of the club
We'll keep you out of the pub
It just won't be your day
We won't let you in to drink
And you'll have time to think
Yeah, you'll think that you will die
Door-guys of the club, yeah

I'm a licensed doorway man
Yeah, a licensed doorway man
I'll take you by the hand
Make you understand
That you're not getting in
You'll think it is a sin
That I'm a doorway man, yeah

Wow!

Guardians of the Door
Guardians of the Door
We'll guard it on our own
And against it you'll be thrown
Like a dog without a bone
And a thug who's out on loan
Guardians of the Door

Yes, I'm a licensed thug!
A real big licensed thug!
And you're not getting in .....
You're name's not on the list .....
Go away or feel my fist!

*apologies tio The Doors (the living ones,)

I always hated doormen. Ran afoul of them too often!

15

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 15:33:19

the S.I.A have no powers to ensure or improve the professionalism of the security industry, like the s.i.a state we are here to manage the licensing of the security industry, by there own admittion cant tell company's how to run there business properly,to ensure they are following statutary rights like paying holiday pay,sickpay,maternity ect ect, or work within health & safety guidelines, or tell veunes how many door stewards required in comparison to the capacity of that venue, so in effect it just collects the cash and issues the licenses, and occassionally checks to ensure that the door stewards is licenced to work, but with only 3 investigators for scotland there will be doorstewards working as in england and wales without a licence. so still no better than the local authoruty schemes that are in place or were in place. estimated 36,000 still working in england wales without a S.I.A licence after its been running for two & half years, my opinoin is just another stealth tax as the doorstewards that abide by the laws get screwed over again & again.

16

bravotwo,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 16:26:23

14 so your saying that all doorstaff are thugs
1 you think that allwe do is beat up people
i must admit that there is a some that do that
but i dont. ive worked as a doorman for the past 8 years and never had to kick or beaten up anyone
when ive work on the doors. ive no crimial record
never been lifted. so just becouse im a doorman im a thug. what a joke. its a job thats all.

17

brettgallacher,

01/02/2007 16:31:40

excalibar how many poles do you employ now with no record of their suitablity to do the job plus the reason behind the license is to stop cowboys like you running the drug scene in pubs clubs etc

18

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 16:44:52

16. bravotwo; i agree mate,i too have no criminal record,and havent beaten anyone up either. not all door stewards are thugs.
17. brettgallacher; i dont employ any people from poland at prsent and certainly dont control the dealing of drugs as we have a zero tolerance policy and ensure we prosecute those caught using/selling drugs.

19

Jock Scot,

01/02/2007 17:14:50

# were talking doorman (thug, ex con) at a night club not a bell hop at a hotel.

20

Finbarr Saunders,

01/02/2007 17:26:26

Why will this new legislation cause job loses?

All the decent doormen will get trained and licenced. And the thugs will be weeded out.

This will create a jobs shortage. The pubs and clubs will still have to hire security, so they'll have to pay more money to attract licenced and trained doormen or to retain their services.

Others may be attracted to the industry by the increased pay and new-found respectability.

Everyone wins. Except the thugs, who will be out of a job. And the pubs and clubs, who have to pay a bit more for security. But they'll just pass the additional cost on to the punters, anyway.

21

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 17:27:21

Jock Scot ;were talking doorman (thug, ex con) at a night club
obviously a very misguided person as all door stewards have to go thru a crb check even for the edinburgh licence mate, yes, alot of people are of the same opinion that door stewards are nothng more than thugs,usually these are the same people that have been refused entry or been escorted from the venue/pub for doing something that the management didnt agree with or assaulted verbally or otherwise a member of the public or staff, the door stewards dont make the rules,they are set by the venue's manager, and every venue can have different set of rules, ie no trainers/football colour ect ect.

22

Jock Scot,

01/02/2007 18:11:20

#21 I don't care what you call them stewards and no I have no personal experience with your licenced overweight gorillas with broken noses, but have been witness to their thuggery on occasion.

23

ross casement,

01/02/2007 18:56:18

THE WHOLE REASON WHY LICENSING HAS BEEN BROUGHT IN IS BECAUSE OF THE GANGSTERS SETTING UP SECURITY COMPANIES TO LAUNDER THEIR DRUGS MONEY. THIS IS WHY PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO PAY £245 FOR A 3 YEAR LICENCE IN ORDER TO DO A VERY POORLY PAID JOB. THE LICENSIN WILL NOT PREVENT AS MANY PEOPLE WORKING IN SECURITY AS FIRST THOUGHT BECAUSE IF YOU COME FROM ABROAD AND HAVE NOT BEEN IN THIS COUNTRY FOR 10 YEARS THEN YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE CHECKED. I HAVE PERSONALLY WITNESSED THIS IS ACTION. THE OUTCOME WILL BE THAT THE CROOKS WILL EMPLOY FOREIGNERS WHO HAVE NOT BEEN HERE FOR 10 YEARS.

24

Scaramouche,

01/02/2007 19:02:36

#16. Actually no. I wrote a parody based on a pop song with the words changed to reflect the issue on the thread.

My own experience of some years ago were of "doormen" who were too free with their fists. I sincerely hope things have changed and doormen of today are trained and licensed to operate since now and again they do have to deal with some rough types. I think what is proposed is entirely correct in the circumstances.

I hope you (and others) enjoy my little ditty as the fun item it is meant to be. make no apologies for my sense of humour.

25

bravotwo,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 19:20:56

so now im a overweight licened gorilla with a broken nose lol. im one of the smallist doorman in edinburgh im 5foot 2 11pound 5. maybe i should of stayed in the army oh wait then ill be called a thug with a gun. ive worked in alot of pubs and clubs over the years from gay bars to night clubs and we(doorstaff) have to ajust to the door we are working on. so its ok for people to come to the door drunk and to get in or give all the rubbish under the sun about me being a thug tell you what if all the security companys where to walk off the doors in edinburgh there would be more fights and stabbing in the pubs and clubs oh and dont forget the football or the stores

26

bravotwo,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 19:26:04

24 im not having a go at you it just gives some people the wrong way to jugde people like me who are just out to make money for there kids

27

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 19:35:38

24. Scaramouche ; no offence taken matey, actually thought it quite funny,
bravotwo, totally agree mate,im quite sure the local constables would love that, all doorstewards walking off the door even for 1 weekend they would flip, there is enough anti-social behavior on the streets as it is,without the doormen ect the town would end up with severe problems and im sure the police would agree. i also agree with your point that most doormen do this to subsidise there full time day jobs to support there families rather than sponge of the rest of society, but thats just it though jo blogs only see's the thug,but dont realise we are someones son,brother,father,husband ect.

28

excalibur security,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 19:40:26

20. Finbarr Saunders; This will create a jobs shortage. The pubs and clubs will still have to hire security, so they'll have to pay more money to attract licenced and trained doormen or to retain their services.
sorry mate,this is not so as that was what the s.i.a promised those south of the borders too but alass they even got that wrong,pubco's wont pay any more for the service, the actual rise in wages for stewards only rose £2.00 since the s.i.a but that was the first increase since i can remember and im no youngster.

29

ddmc,

01/02/2007 20:53:25

great songwriting again mouche, why can't the security firms pay the costs as they must be raking in the dough if they pay their staff minimum wages.
As for the criminal element they are still there running some security companies, it's just that they wear suits now. Generally bouncers are becoming more human & tell you politely that your no getting in, wheras before it was f*ck off, i've had a couple of fights with doorstaff mainly because of their (& mine's) attitude. But it is a thankless job especially on a Friday & Saturday in the toon

30

conspiracy,

edinburgh 01/02/2007 23:06:03

29. ddmc ; Generally bouncers are becoming more human & tell you politely that your no getting in, wheras before it was f*ck off, i've had a couple of fights with doorstaff mainly because of their (& mine's) attitude. But it is a thankless job especially on a Friday & Saturday in the toon.
totally agree mate, if you give attitude expect the same in return, i always say treat people the way you would expect to be treated yourself.

31

Charlie,

Glasgow 02/02/2007 10:17:52

Bouncers - you've had it easy for years. The local authority licence is an absolute steal and can be issued with practically zero background checks. It's a good thing that the industry should be regulated. These new rules, and fees, are already in place in England & Wales. There's no point fighting the legislation - it has already been passed you numpty. Stop greetin' into your bovver boots.

32

Jockyw,

02/02/2007 10:23:50

Excalibur security - The purpose of these comments is to think before you speak & then make a comment. By replying to every comment on security issues it would seem that you have a weak argument.

SIA informed the UK security industry many moons ago & the fact that England & Wales are already licensed would suggest that Scotland has had time but extremely poor management, communication & forward planning (inc. savings etc) just shows how back ward the security companies are.

If you want to work in security for real then get a job in Iraq if you have the qualification.
Door stewards are not especially aware of what is going on & spend too much time chatting to mates or chatting up birds.

I was in a bar (L rm) in George St not that long ago when I witnessed a guy head butt & punch a guy down then walk out. The door stewards after saying good night to him on his way out then ran in to rectify the situation.

The door steward’s main role is to be selective of clientele, which any drinker can do when venturing or later entering a bar/club. Research, word of mouth etc. A well trained bar man could be selective at the bar & state that the person had too much to drink etc.

SIA ruling is tight but so is the council tax, road tax etc. You'll all just have to live with it. Get over it.

33

Yo Yo,

Glasgow 02/02/2007 14:43:45

I think the SIA licence is a good thing for Scotland.

Excalibur makes good points - some people will lose out, especially those who work part time. But the downside is far out-weighed by the advantages.

Firstly, unlike 23. ross casement's comments: people who've lived abroad have to have overseas criminal checks done. So gangsters can't just employ them, because they go through more rigorous checks than a homegrown steward.

Secondly, cowboy companies who go bust owing thousands - only to re-emerge under another name - will find it harder to continue, because if a director was in charge of a company that went into liquidation, he is not "fit and proper", so he won't get a licence.

The SIA doesn't contravene any human rights - it's a government agency! Don't you think they'd know if they were breaking any laws?

And as many people have already said: the industry has a poor image. It's a good thing to have better-trained people protecting people. I certainly don't want a rapist working the doors and looking after drunk women!

And if it means that bouncers need to pay more, which means pubs have to pay more for security, and we have to pay more for a pint - I'm cool with that!

The police will work with the SIA, so there will be emforcement. Excalibur - you only need to look at Liverpool to see that things will be enforced.

The whole point of this is to get rid of the thugs, the gangsters, and the @rseholes so that the public can be assured that they are going to be safe at all times. Someone has to pay for it, why not those who actually do it?

34

Door Steward/Trainer,

Glasgow 02/02/2007 18:51:13

Its all well and good complaining about the costs of the SIA Licence, at the end of the day these Company Bosses who gathered to complain are worried about one thing the cost to them as inevitably as quoted expecting to pay minimum rates for Door Stewards/Security will be a thing of the past and in the long run companies will pay the costs as minimum wages will average from £10 to £12 per hour the costs in the long run will benefit the individual, think of the future and your earnings guys not your employers pockets

35

The Original Doorman,

Edinburgh 28/07/2008 00:03:58
Excalibur Security needs to let the S.I.A thing rest, they are here to stay and no matter what we do or say they will always be there! Excalibur Security, time to let it go, put it to bed and deal with it! There is nothing you can do to change it, at the end of the day it's the government, so you are not going to be able to oust them are you? GIVE IT UP!

 

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