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Monday, 2nd November 2009 Change Date Latest Issue

Disabled girl turned away by bus driver

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Published Date: 28 February 2008
A MOTHER who was told there was no room on the bus for her disabled daughter has hit out at operator Lothian Buses.
Fiona Pickup was furious when she could not take her five-year-old daughter Emma Dobbin on the bus, because there was a child's buggy in the wheelchair space.

Ms Pickup, 27, now plans to raise the issue with the Scottish Parliament, saying there
should be clearer rules about wheelchair access on buses.

Emma suffers from cerebral palsy and has been in a wheelchair for two years. The space on the 22 bus is designated for wheelchair use, but is often used by parents with children in buggies.

Ms Pickup, of Leith, said when she tried to board the bus from Ocean Terminal on Saturday there was a woman with a buggy taking up the wheelchair space. She claimed the driver did not ask the woman to fold up the pushchair, but simply said she would have to wait for the next bus.

The helpdesk consultant said when she phoned to complain she was told the driver was not able to move people from the space.

She now plans to write to the First Minister asking for the issue to be looked at.

"I was just so angry with the bus driver because of his attitude," she said. "I thought these spaces were meant to be for wheelchair users, and I can't see why the woman couldn't fold up the buggy so my daughter could get on the bus.

"All I keep thinking about is what if my daughter was an adult and travelling on her own and the bus driver told her she wasn't getting on. If it was the last bus home would he have left her sitting there on her own?"

A spokesman for Lothian Buses said they had not received any complaint, but insisted its drivers were instructed to accommodate both wheelchair and pushchair users wherever possible.

"Drivers will allow wheelchair users to board a bus if there is an unoccupied wheelchair space and in doing so the maximum seating or standing capacity is not exceeded," he said. "If the space is occupied, it can only be vacated if there is available capacity, or if a buggy can be folded easily and space is available for its storage and the safe passage of its occupant."

He added that such incidents highlighted the need for passengers to co-operate with drivers to make wheelchair space available.

This is an issue being raised by disabled rights charity Ecas.

Sam Condry, research and campaigning officer at Ecas, said: "There should always be ample space on buses for pushchairs and wheelchairs. If there is room on the bus, priority wheelchair spaces should be vacated for those in wheelchairs."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 28 February 2008 10:27 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Nell,

The Preservation Hall 28/02/2008 11:24:37
The person who had the buggy there should have got off their ar5e and folded it up. Yet another example of people with no respect for others.
2

,

28/02/2008 11:26:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

an interested party,

28/02/2008 11:31:56
a couple to many 'what ifs' in this article

what if she had been an adult
what if she had been travelling alone
what if it was the last bus

it was not any of these
the space was occupied and it would appear it is not the drivers job to enforce such things

what if it was another wheel chair?
what if she waited for the next most frequent bus in the toon
what if the bus was full, as happens, then nobody gets on

yes i do fully agree that being disabled makes travelling extra difficult and i feel for the mother and daughter but there is only so much provision that can be made and in this case it showed up a flaw in that provision

public transport is not the most reliable form of transport but suffices 99.9999999999999999% of the time
4

jimbob2402,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 11:59:32
Still does not matter as on the instance the person should have moved as this was a wheelchair user. Have people no decency any more. Its not too hard to collapse a buggy.
5

Chris,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 12:08:57
Agreed, the 'what if?' is irrelevant, and yes, if there isn't room on the bus, then there isn't room. However, if the space is designated for wheelchair use, then the driver should be given the responsibility for ensuring that it can be used for that purpose. However the suggestion that Edinburghers co-operate with the drivers is pure fantasy. It is on the buses that you can meet some of the most selfish people in the city.
6

lavvyhead,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 12:13:31
Everybody has forgotten the most important tool here especially the driver, who I find sometimes are encased in their tomb of a cab and refuse to do anything..... its called communication, Why did the driver not ask the woman to fold her pushchair? Why did the driver not try and resolve the situation? He is in charge of the bus its passengers and their safety. Would appear as soon as he puts on the uniform he becomes a jobsworth. Not my job luv, can't move people, not my job. Communication, resolution and just plain common bl**dy sense
7

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/02/2008 12:23:57
when LRT made the decision to allow prams and buggys on buses without being folded, was the worst, in my opinion, decision to make.

Why should I move from the space quite clearly marked "Wheelchar users" for a person with a buggy/pram.

The comment regarding the driver not being able to move people from the space is rubbish. I have been moved several times from that space to allow a buggy/pram to board the bus - even when the bus is full to capacity and there is no more standing room!!

It's about time LRT removed the right to allow buggies and prams on the buses and this would save this happening time and time again.

Let the lazy lot with buggies/prams who take the bus walk. I never had the luxury of using a bus when my children were in buggies/prams no matter what the circumstances. It was walk, or nothing - which is the way it should be!
8

The Judge,

28/02/2008 12:26:11
There is no point in contacting LRT with any complaint about a driver or a bus service. They really don't care.

The owner of the pushchair could have folded it up and made room for the girl in the wheelchair but thats society for you. Me first everybody else second is most peoples attitude these days.

#7 Hits the nail on the head, most drivers don't care and are only interested in an easy life.
9

Finbarr Saunders,

28/02/2008 12:27:42
#3 - an interested party - I totally agree.

Much as I hate bus drivers, you can hardly blame the driver here.
10

Sarcasm,

28/02/2008 12:33:40
Look it was a number 22, another two probably passed whilst the mother was trying to get things sorted.
11

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 12:42:36
i have driven for over 30 years as a bus/coach driver and had the total misfortune to work with lothian buses at marine garage many years ago and my time there lasted only 1 year. their policies towards drivers change like the weather,but...read the sign attatched to the window on the "low access for disabled friendly buses!" its says clearly that it is for people with wheelchairs (wheelchair users).what did the people with young children do before the introduction of the "easy access" buses.they had no option, the buggy was folded, and most sensible parents had to foresight to have the task done before the bus arrived at the stop. most if not all drivers waited on the parent getting the shopping and the child on the bus. it worked a wee treat. and back then you looked out the window of your nice warm bus and saw a person in a wheelchair pushing themselves along to the local shop in the pouring rain. lets get real.young people today are lazy gits and have an attitude problem. the space is for wheelchair users,priority surely!they have no choice,a pushchair is manufactured to be folded for travelling convenience eh? does anyone remember the saying."common sense"?
12

dangerousdave,

Perth 28/02/2008 12:45:39
Remember being on buses more than 10 years ago? They all had steps and no spaces for buggies or wheelchairs. Some people take this for granted as normal these days.

Dangerous
13

Mr Crisps,

Musselburgh 28/02/2008 12:47:06
So potentially the driver should have asked a mother (possibly with other kids) to eject her (maybe sleeping) infant from their buggy, fold it while looking after her family, then stand with a baby and maybe other kids?

Don't make judgements based on sketchy facts. Storm in a teacup.
14

Jock McSpock,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 12:47:43
The disabled person should have had priority, even if this involves the buggy being displaced (folded, or asked to leave the bus).

Babies don't *need* to be transported in buggies. Some disabled people *need* to be in a wheelchair to get around.
15

A Leither,

28/02/2008 12:48:06
I've been on plenty of 22 buses where the driver has asked buggy-owners or people standing in the wheelchair bay to move out to let a wheelchair on. If there's already a buggy in the space and another buggy wants on, the drivers usually tell them they can get on if they'll fold their buggy up.

22 drivers are, in my experience, pretty decent ladies & gents and I've been using the bus since it came into operation.

The biggest pain on 22s are the idiots who get on and then stand around in a crush at the front of the bus whilst there are seats still available. It's a nightmare for anyone else trying to get on or off. Even worse is when the driver keeps asking folks to move up the bus to take up the empty space and make room, and no-one pays the slightest attention. The level of ignorance and selfishness these days is unbelievable.
16

Miss S,

leith 28/02/2008 12:55:30
Dont think i'd like to be standing with a baby on the 22. Its hard enough standing with 2 hands on poles with the way the drivers slam the breaks on every 2 seconds and take corners like waltzers.
17

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:09:01
It is a wheelchair space, not a space for lazy parents who cannot be bothered to fold their buggies. The mother had a choice whether or not to have the baby, along with all the restrictions that entails - you cannot say the same for a disabled person.
18

Buggy Pusher,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:09:09
The woman was waiting on a 22, I'm sure if she couldnt get on she could have waited the extra 2 - 3 mins on the next one.

If you have a young sleeping child in a buggy who cannot walk is it very safe to remove them and have to hold them on a moving bus?

The buggys mother\father had paid there fare and are entitled to remain in the space.

Disabled people should not get priority over the space, they always state they want treated as "normal" people, well if thats the case if the space is occupied then they wait on the next bus that has an available space
19

Edin,

28/02/2008 13:19:30
3 an interested party, and 4.. Edinburgh has shocking public transport and Rarely suffices 99.9999999999999999% of the time!! What must the girl think if someone says no ther is no room for you in here. The inconsiderate mother with the buggie should have offered to fold her pushchair...or acknowledge to the woman that she couldnt for whatever reason. the driver should have at least tried tohelp in some way.

Mr Crisps, yes thats exactly what she should have done.. you got it in one !
20

Josie,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:19:37
The lady with the pushchair could have been waiting a long time to get on the bus with her pushchair, I have often stood at the top of Leith Walk & watched 5 or 6 22's go past before I could get on with my buggy. If she had been standing for ages in the cold with a hungry/tired baby then why should she get off? Why is it automatically assumed that she is being selfish? Buggy's are not easy to fold & not everywhere in Edinburgh is within walking distance. It's not up to the driver to ask the mother to move either. What does he do? Ask someone to move & they say no is he then to throw a mother & child off the bus? That would be the headline in the news next again day I can bet you! Yes wheelchairs should get proirty in an ideal world but you've got to look at the bigger picture.
21

Mark C,

Morningside 28/02/2008 13:28:53
I don't see the point in pointing fingers at the bus driver to be honest as he's in a bit of a no-win situation. If he had told the pushchair user to vacate the bus we'd probably have an identical article with the headline "Mother with young child forced to leave bus". Both demographics expect the general public to do their bidding when they snap their fingers (although in my experience parents are the worse culprits).

Also as has already been pointed out, it's not as if 22's are rare.

On a related note though, I wonder if the current fashion for huge pushchairs that resemble 4x4s has made it difficult/ impossible to fold them up? You don't need something with the footprint of a Smart car and disc brakes that are better than the ones on my mountain bike to ferry your children around!
22

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 13:29:10
Like whats said before, the #22 comes every few mins. Big deal if there were a buggy or that in there. the #22 is the only bus that runs about 100,000 per hour
23

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/02/2008 13:29:34
anyone who posts a comment defending buggy pushers over disabled wheelchair users obviously have no heart!

How can you compare a pram pusher to someone who HAS to use a wheelchair - disgusting
all you lazy mummies and daddies out there chose to have the babies - at least you had the choice?

The wheelchair user could have been waiting just as long and may also have had to wait until several buses passed before they could board. Surely somewhere in your deep selfish minds - you can see that you should have given up the space

I think LRT should abolish all prams/buggies on their buses.

Mind you the one that stinks is when a buggy pusher puts the buggy into the space, which someone has had to give up - then takes the child out of the buggy and leaves an empty buggy sitting in the space!!!! that's happened to me before so, yes I am more than a little bitter.
24

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 13:30:21
Seems to be just another Evening News nonsense story designed to raise the hackles and improve sales. And they carefully fail to give us the whole story, so we end up concocting various condemnations based on half truths. What a way to make a living.
25

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:36:18
#20
get real eh!
a sleeping baby...hmmmmm i had three sons,who did sleep as well...i managed perfectly well....babies do have a tendancy to sleep through quite a lot. but to take up your stupid point! you CAN lift YOUR child, please tell me how a mother can lift a disabled person, probably an adult, and are you so medically educated that you can tell what is wrong with that person, meaning that disabled person might need transportation fo many reason.buggies? can be folded easily,babys treated properly will keep calm etc.buggy pushers are usually going for jaunts or shopping, correct? so what you are saying is that disabled people do not have that right above you?
ma a*se.stop being damn lazy and using trivial excuses...you can do something to elliviate the situ,disabled people unfortunately cant. no contest!
26

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 13:37:20
I am a pretty frequent user of the 22 and also in a wheelchair. I agree with the earlier comment that this is a storm in a tea cup. It's the 22 for god's sake which everyone knows runs every few minutes. Who of us in this life are too busy or important that we can't wait a few minutes for the next bus?

I for one am grateful that we now have a service like the 22, a massive change from 30 years ago when travel by public transport in a wheelchair was challenging to say the least.

27

jimbob2402,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:38:08
People should be ashamed of themselves if they think a collapsible buggy should take priority over someone in a wheelchair. Some posts keep saying it’s the number 22 and they are regular, surely this is not the point. Get a grip!
28

,

28/02/2008 13:39:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Mark C,

28/02/2008 13:39:58
#26

Children, the disabled and the eldery are in my opinion 3 very good reasons not to use public transport :-)
30

Big Smoke,

28/02/2008 13:40:39
I hate all this 'I'm disabled I must get priority' then it's the same folk that fight for eqaulity! As has been said the 22 comes every 2-3 minutes get over it! or get a wheelchair with a engine!
31

Edin,

28/02/2008 13:44:35
forgetthis story ..
read this


http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/features/She-occupies-a-special-place.3824564.jp#2533477
32

Jingle,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:45:14
God you lot - without 'mummies and daddies', 'selfish parents' etc, where would you lot be??!!! Have a b****y heart
33

Dave1875,

28/02/2008 13:46:33
Lemme get this straight: the mother with the buggy needs it to get her child around as the child can't walk; the other daughter needs her wheelchair as she is also unable to get around.

Why is the wheelchair user more equal than the child that needs the buggy?
34

big man,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:49:25
As a Bus Driver with LRT and looking at what has been written, i can see this as a storm in a teacup, yes i agree buggies should be banned as it causes friction especially when there taking up space for disabled person using a wheelchair, if the person with a buggy in that space for disabled is asked to fold up there buggy to make room, most oblige, but there are the certain few who say NO, and if they say no !, they can't be forced out of that space, then our hands are tied, the 22 is the most frequent service there is, am quite sure the person didn't have much time to wait for another 22, so don't always put the blame on drivers, even at rush hours it's hard to accomade people especially when there standing, ave been doing buses since i was 18 and have never come across a city where some people are so ignorant towards bus drivers, we do a hard job, if you dont like us, why not go one better and join us, see what life is like from the other side of the coin, there is decent people in Edinburgh and they have got the best service in Britain, go elsewhere and then you could really moan about lack of services, wait till the trams come, god help us then.
35

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 13:49:25
#33 LOL you do have a point though. Be it a disabled person in a wheelchair, child in a buggy or a marathon runner - people are always saying (esp disabled people) that they should have EQUAL RIGHTS - and now they have them and are moaning about not getting on a bus that comes every 3 seconds.

As oor somebody else who said that they might have been waiting longer - they were at ocean terminal which is the 1st stop so if they had av been, the buggy would have been behind them in the queue - also, there are about 3 #22s that sit there at the terminous at each time
36

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 13:49:37
These petty rules are what put people off using public transport. there is plenty of room on a bus for a wheelchair AND a buggy. A wheelchair and SEVERAL buggies to be exact.

This is yet another example of mindless "health and safety" in action.

I do however agree that given the current daft situation, the buggy owner should have folded her buggy up. Maybe she didn't notice the wheelchair and was not asked by the driver in which case it's not really her fault.
37

Mark C,

28/02/2008 13:49:40
#37 indeed, I think the only way to settle this is via some form of deathmatch between a wheelchair user and a "Buggaboo"

Activate!
38

blackpoppy,

east lothian 28/02/2008 13:55:33
These areas on buses are designated for wheel chair users and I am pretty certain it does state that if required the space has 2 be given up. I must say mothers have it so bloomin easy nowadays, They dont know wat its like to fold a buggy and juggle a baby at same time. They just walk on bus without any hassles. Its more common curtesy to give up the area for a disable person anyways, just sheer ignorance on the woman with the baby.Shame on her
39

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 13:56:51
#28 I have 3 kids all under 3. 2 in a buggy and one walking, are you trying to suggest i hold all 3 off them on my own while trying to fold a buggy? And who is going to take responsibility if an accident happens to one of the kids whilst out of the saftey off the buggy?


Who ever is in the Q first has priority just like it is when non didabled people queue for a bus.

people with buggies dont ask people with wheelchairs to fold them so why should we be required to move?

Disabled people have many other means off free or reduced transport (taxi card, free parking practically any where)

also I bet this is the fist time she has been turned away from a bus. Is it such a great hardship for her to wait on the next bus? I think you will find the answer to that would be NO.






40

Baroness Fortitude III,

28/02/2008 13:58:08
Fiona Pickup and her five-year-old daughter Emma Dobbin.

Made up names. This whole incident never happened.

41

,

28/02/2008 14:00:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
42

The Judge,

28/02/2008 14:05:50
#43 Maybe you should have though of your transport situation before popping out 3 kids.

You have a choice the person in a wheelchair has no choice. You are obviously one of those people who thinks the world revolves around your own @rse. Just for half a second put yourself in the position of the disabled person before spouting your crap.
43

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 14:12:50
#47 I have though my transport situation I can either go on the bus in the buggy space or in a car.

The disabled person has the same choices they should NOT be given priority over me.

If the person is so disabled that thay cant wait for a bus maybe they should look for other transport means.

If i got on a bus without kids and there was no seat and i asked you to move cos i wanted a seat would you? I guess the answer would be no.

Why should we treat disabled people like royalty they are humans tthe same as you and me so therfore they should not get special treatment.
44

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 14:27:06
#48 Calm down dear, it's only another non-story from the EEN.

I think you will find that most of us "wheelies" don't expect to be treated like royalty in preference to you "walkies".

Don't get so het up. I will keep my eye open for you on the 22. If I see anyone with a slightly crazed glint in their eye dragging 3 sprogs along I will gladly hop off the bus and give you my space. My personal hate is having to sit next to 3 kids of that age.

Is that OK? Are we allowed to have our prejudices too?
45

Iain Bhern,

28/02/2008 14:30:00
Here's a what if for you. What if the mother with the buggy was disabled. Just because someone doesn't look disabled does not mean they don't have a disability. Remember that before you go making complaints Mrs Dobbin!
46

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 14:30:28
I am shocked that some people think disabled folk shouldn't be given priority on certain issues. They ain't asking to be treated like royalty like you so put it "BUGGY PUSHER" but you come into my shoes for a week and see how you can manage with a wheelchair and bags of shopping and everything else I need to do.

You have no idea how difficult it is for disabled folk, they have to fight for everything even a space on public transport. This maybe no big issue to you folk but I am sorry it is for me.

My whole letter was not printed in the Evening News but I so wish it was.

Yeah maybe there is a but to many "if's" in my article but so what this needs to be sorted out now. How would you feel if the next time you opened this paper and saw that an adult in a wheelchair had been left by the last bus and they had been raped or something? I would feel terrible as I would think that could have been my daughter.

When my daughter was in a buggy before she got her wheelchair I got told to move not asked. I do not have a choice I need to use public transport.




47

farepak customer,

28/02/2008 14:32:24
anyone stopped to think what if it had been a disabled child in one of those disabled buggies then what would have happened???
sorry its another "what if" but........
48

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 14:34:29
Iain Bhern. I am not stupid I know when someone is disabled or not and I can assure you this person was not OK. She wasn't even on her own she was with folk so before you start saying things like that maybe you should get your facts right about what was saw/said OK. I will be happy to post the whole letter I sent to the Evening News in hope that it will shut up all those people out there who think they are better that disabled folk.
49

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 14:37:18
#51 Tell me WHY you should get priority? why should you not have to wait on the next bus? why should disabled people park there cars on double yellows and get away with it.

You should be treated as equals and if that means waiting for something so be it.
50

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 14:38:15
As previously said in my last comment I made, when my daughter was in her kick-up buggy we got told to move not asked. I could have turned round and said no I ain't moving but I didn't I had someone to help me like she did that day and she still didn't move. I know when a child is disabled or not as I see enough disabled children and can assure you this child was not.
51

Iain Bhern,

28/02/2008 14:39:47
Mother Of Child Turned away you are completely missing the point. I look perfectly normal to most people BUT I am disabled. You cannot know someone suffers from a dibilitating disease just by looking at them. Further I would be delighted if you would post the entire letter on this forum, you may have to split it in to more than one post though. After we have read your un-editted version we can then perhaps have a reasoned debate.
52

Iain Bhern,

28/02/2008 14:44:39
#55, "why should disabled people park there cars on double yellows and get away with it."

Because some people are unable to walk more than a few yards, some cannot walk at all. Why should they be deprived of access to all the same shops and facilities that you enjoy? Don't kid yourself, if you were in their position you would shout just as loudly for your rights!
53

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 14:56:32
#51 It's great that you have actually taken time to join in the discussion. I think perhaps you see a lot of these comments as personal attacks, which I am sure they are not. I'm afraid that the only reason your story is in the paper is that it will sell newspapers and get comments flowing. That is also the reason why it has been only partially reported.

Can I ask, though: assuming that the parent with the buggy had been unable, for whatever reason, to fold it up (say there was already a folded buggy on the rack, or it was a double buggy and the parent had other children), would you seriously have insisted that they get off the bus in favour of you and your daughter?

Given that it wasn't the last bus, and the 22 is extremely frequent, would you not have simply waited for the next bus?
54

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 15:01:22
#58

The highway code rule 242 states

You MUST NOT leave your vehicle or trailer in a dangerous position or where it causes any unnecessary obstruction of the road. yet disabled people break this rule all the time without getting any kind of fine do you think this is right.

There are disabled spaces allowing you to access the same shops as able bodied people. USE THEM.
55

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/02/2008 15:08:08
BUGGY PUSHER - you are a disgrace - the whole point here is that YOU HAD/HAVE THE CHOICE TO HAVE 3 CHILDREN UNDER 3 -
I don't think a disabled person has the choice!

It's parents with your attitude that makes the younger generation what they are today, lack of respect for anyone or anything - I pity our society when your three children reach the age where they can open their mouths as wide as yours and have a selfish attitude!

Mother of Child Turned away - my heart does out to you. I hope you do not meet any more imbeciles on your journeys... I don't imagine for one minute you would have asked the person on the bus with the buggy to move.

Let's hope there are more courteous people around in this world and less BUGGY PUSHERS !
56

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 15:14:28
#62 You're hardly in a position to lecture people about their attitude.

Having 3 children under 3 is a perfectly valid choice. It shouldn't be grounds for criticism of someone whose circumstances you are completely unaware of.
57

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 15:16:36
#61 You're not for calming down are you?

Blue badge holders are not allowed to park on double yellows or single yellows with side bars on the pavement.

I have had loads of tickets for being badly parked, wheels over the line and stuff like that and I don't even have the excuse of being a bird.

You are going off the deep end unneccessarily and taking the debate into areas it doesn't need to go.

If the mum in question feels that someone should give up their space or even have to get off the bus then that is up to her but I fear she is going to have to write a lot of letters in her life if not getting on one 22 is giving her grief. But that is her choice.

But no need to go off on a random and ill informed rant on what is and is not available to folk with disabilities.

Have a nice day!
58

Angus R,

28/02/2008 15:17:32
#62 What if she had triplets? Are you suggesting she gives 1 or 2 away?

I think the funniest folk are the ones that park in supermarket - mother and child pays and they have a teenager with them!!
59

Skint and Appalled,

on top of old smokey 28/02/2008 15:26:12
Mums with kids have only recently been given the right to travel on buses with their children in buggys. Quite frankly this is a privilege and should be treated as such. Why shouldnt parents with buggies/.prams walk. I had to when I had mine while juggling shopping, school runs, etc. No cars for me as we couldn't afford it.
My mother also had to with 4 children under 6 - she wouldn't have even though about trying to get on the bus!
Rest assured though if I was in that situation where I as taking the space specifically designed for disabled - I would have insisted, I moved and gave up the space - even if it meant getting a different bus.

It doesnt matter how many children she has - its the fact that if you have children YOU HAVE THE CHOICE!

a disabled person has no CHOICE!

that's all I was trying to say

60

onlooker123,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 15:29:06
it could be lothian buses to 'blame' here if you can call it blame, when my sister ws on the bus with her new born recently a wheelchair user commented to the bus driver that my sister would have to move (my sister couldn't fold the pram, a fairly big one) whilst holding the baby, to which the wheelchair user then said my sister would have to get off,
the bus drivers response was that the spaces are now for wheelchairs and prams alike, and therefore first come first served, the wheelchair user would have to wait for the next one,
need less to say my sister wasn't asked to move, (but i believe she like me, would have folded the pram had the baby been bigger and the pram easy to fold and put away)

mabye lothian buses should make this policy clearer, and its not fair to bad mouth everyone with prams/buggys, we're not all selfish and disrespectful

and to everyone who say people choose to have babys - does the baby choose to need a pram????
61

Mark C,

28/02/2008 15:30:46
The whole "she chose to have 3 kids" is a straw man anyway as by the same token you could argue (equally wrongly) that having a disabled child is a lifestyle choice.

For what it's worth I think there must be a "selfish" switch that gets toggled in your brain as soon as you reproduce as parents (particularly those of young children) are quite possibly the most selfish people known to man. Respect is a 2-way thing, remember that the next time you're running people off the pavement with your huge 3-wheeled pushchair/SUV!
62

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 15:31:53
# 62 yes i did have the choice to have those children. I do believe it is a very legal and personal choice being that we dont live in china. I chose to have those children just like i chose to take them out on pulic transport if there is a space on the bus for us. I dont have a lack of repact for people, as previously stated i believe as common courtesy the person first in the q would have been entitled to the seat i am not looking for priority because i have 3 small children nor do i think the disabled person should have had priority over the space if they were not before the lady with the buggy in the q
63

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 15:35:01
#68 I see, your bitterness is essentially based on the fact that things were different when you had your children. Well perhaps it's you that needs to deal with that, not the young parents who you denigrate so unfairly.
64

rock on jonny,

28/02/2008 15:35:16
ABSOLUTELY TYPICAL,lots of common sense regarding a serious issue,no contributions fromVOLTAIRE OR PATERSON
65

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 15:35:18
# 63, i didnt say the disabled shouldn't have access to the shops I just said they shouldn't be allowed ( as is seen many a time) to break the law to do so, and furthermore, yes, not all disabled people are 'wheelies' just as not all buggy pushers are unable or unwilling to fold their buggys.
66

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 15:41:41
Yeah maybe this was a number 22 this time but it could have been a bus that wasn't due for another half an hour to an hour. Buggies have the choice they can fold up, wheelchair user don't have the choice, sorry.

My daughter doesn't want to be treated any different from other folk but at the end of the day when it comes to independent traveling for wheelchair users I think it is terrible. There is plenty spaces on buses that are marked for elderly/disabled folk but not for a wheelchair space.

If this ever happens to me again then I am sorry but I will not be moving. The inspector/police whoever can come but I will not be moving.

Do you all want to see the letter I wrote? Well here you all go. I am appalled with peoples comments that do not see there being anything wrong in this and thank the people who see my point of view.

As for the person who said they feel sorry for me, DONT. I am a working parent who looks after my daughter after working a full day. I pay taxes, probably unlike most people so why should I not have my say.

On Saturday 16 February at approximately 16:46 at the
Ocean Terminal I attempted to get on a number 22 bus
with my disabled daughter who is in a wheelchair.

The driver who I can only explain as the rudest person
I have came across in a long time (that is being nice)
said I was not getting on the bus with the wheelchair
as there was a buggy on, wait for it, not with a baby
but with a toddler in it.

He did not attempt to ask the couple with the buggy to
fold it, even though he said he did but I for one am
not deaf and know for a fact he made no attempt to ask
them to fold it and I was just not getting on the bus
with the wheelchair and I was to wait for the next
bus.

All I keep thinking about is what if my daughter was
an adult and travelling on her own and the bus driver
told her she wasn’t getting on, how do you think she
would have felt. Or if it was the last bus home would
he have left
67

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 15:49:01
Continue on from previous comment ; - Hope it all fits in this time.

sitting there on her own in the dark,
not acceptable.

I understand now from talking to someone at the
service desk of Lothian Regional Transport that the
drivers have no powers to remove buggies. I am sorry
but if a bus has a wheelchair sign on the bus reading
MUST BE VACATED FOR A WHEELCHAIR USER then that to me
says it all, it’s for a wheelchair and not for
buggies,a misleading statement quite clearly.

I wonder how many other folk this has happened too? I
think it’s about time the government and the bus
company changed this and made it legislation that the
spaces on a bus are for wheelchair users or otherwise
the sign gets changed.

99% of people would probably move for a wheelchair but
this couple, you know who you are, did not and all I
can say is shame on you and the same to everyone on
the bus that did not even come forward that day.

Everyone I have spoken to are under the impression
that the space is for a wheelchair user and that it’s
a legal requirement that buses have spaces for
wheelchairs but if drivers cannot enforce buggies to
move from the space then what is the point in having
the space in the first place. Even on the Lothian
Buses website it says it’s for a wheelchair user but
does not state that drivers cannot enforce buggies to
move.

Due to what happened on Saturday it makes me no longer
want to travel on public transport in-case the same
thing happens again. I depend on public transport to
get from A to B with my daughter.

I would urge anyone who has experienced what I have
experienced to come forward, don’t keep it quiet. I
for one am writing to my MP and Alex Salmond to say
how appalled I was at that bus driver and indeed the
couple who refused to vacate the supposed wheelchair
place.

HAS YOUR BUS DRIVER GONE THE EXTRA MILE TO HELP? NO
68

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 15:52:53
I want folk with buggies to not see the bad in people in wheelchairs they just want to go about their lives like everyone else.

There is clearly in my view enough space for a wheelchair and a buggy on buses so I think maybe Lothian Buses should look into asking the bus driver in a situation like this to remove himself from his little box, help the mother, father, whoever it maybe with the buggy, to fold it so that both parties are safe.

You have probably seen the advert on the buses has your driver went the extra mile. If they want rewarded then maybe they should consider doing this.
69

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 15:52:54
#76 If the 22 winds you up then don't bother flying with BA or you'll end up in a loony bin.

Access to public transport is getting better all the time.

Just to finish, you were looking to get on a 22 in the afternoon not some other less frequent service. If my auntie had b**** sh'd be my uncle!
70

nicnat,

midlothian 28/02/2008 16:01:13
I have 3 kids, 1 who is in a buggy and i use the buses frequentley with my dughter in her buggy but i ould NEVER NOT dismantle my buggy for a wheelchair user. It clearly states the space is there for wheelchair users, ( great thing the buses have introduced to given wheelchair users more independence) and if u decide to put ur buggy in there, u should at least have the manners to remove it should a wheelchair user need to board the bus. I have been on the bus once when this happened to someone in a wheelchir and there was another buggy on the bus and i couldnt believe the buggy owner wouldnt fold her buggy. I agree that it isnt the drivers responsibility but more people should b understanding to this matter...............i certainly am. I will struggle with a buggy, shopping and my 3 kids on a bus should it mean i can give up the space to someone who really needs it.....
71

KatieW,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:04:18
I have to laugh at the comments on this forum. Most of the negative comments towards people with pushchairs coming from men - typical. The views expressed here remind me exactly why even now my daughter is 2 and a half I would rather walk than get on a bus with a buggy and have done so since she was born because of the attitude of some of the inconsiderate people that use public transport. I have an eye disability and will never be able to drive which means I had no option but to rely on public transport and I can tell you it is an absolute nightmare getting on and off buses with a child and whatever else I might have needed to take with me. If the people who disagree with buggies being able to get on buses would actually help instead of watching parents struggle then there would be no problem in vacating the space when a wheelchair needs on the bus.
72

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:06:57
It is not that straightforward! My daughter is in a pushchair but has a problem with her legs and cannot stand up. She is very lively and there is no way on earth to hold her and fold a buggy. I cant put her on the floor of the bus as she would be off all over the place. However I always get off the bus to let a wheelchair user on as its not their problem I can't fold my buggy. I feel the attitude towards buggy users on buses is outrageous though, the drivers are hostile and lots of the passengers. Are we supposed to keep our kids home until they can walk? And I also think this is a ridiculous news story given that the 22 bus is every two minutes, frankly I think the mother of the girl in the wheelchair should have better things to do with her time than writing to the Evening News about it.
73

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 16:10:58
#76 One of the problems here is that the situation that the bus driver was dealing with was not the situation that you posit in your worst case scenario. I am reasonably sure that had it been an infrequent service, rather than one that runs every five minutes; had it been late at night, rather than mid-afternoon; had it been raining or an isolated spot, rather than dry and near warm shelter; then the bus driver might well have taken a different decision. I don't think it is fair to judge him or her by what seems to have been a pragmatic decision in the circumstances.

Incidentally, how long did you have to wait for another 22 and what happened on that one?
74

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:11:10
38 - I am appalled that as a bus driver you would post that buggies should be banned from buses. I suppose that explains the awful attitude mothers get from 80% of bus drivers though, just for availing themselves of something that makes their lives easier *rolls eyes*
75

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:14:39
You do have to blame the driver a bit. I was on the bus with buggy once and I had a sprained knee. Someone wanted on with a wheelchair and the driver asked me "Are you ABLE to fold your buggy". I said no, and was preparing to move the buggy over to the other side as I thought he was letting us both on. He then told the person with the wheelchair that they couldn't get on and drove off. I was mortified and everyone on the bus was giving me dirty looks and muttering. If I had known it was me or the wheelchair I would have got off!
76

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 16:20:00
#51 "I do not have a choice I need to use public transport. " but you do have a choice. Car, taxi, walk.... more than just "the bus" - but why all this whole fuss over a #22 when one comes along "in just a minute"
77

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:22:20
Last post from me, honestly!
If you are surprised at Lothian buses refusal to take your complaint seriously re this, my daughter and I were almost killed by a bus driver who ploughed through a red light at a pedestrian crossing and I got nothing but the most offhand perfunctory reply and nothing was done. Maybe they would be glad of one less mother with a buggy on their buses though!
78

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:22:39
Last post from me, honestly!
If you are surprised at Lothian buses refusal to take your complaint seriously re this, my daughter and I were almost killed by a bus driver who ploughed through a red light at a pedestrian crossing and I got nothing but the most offhand perfunctory reply and nothing was done. Maybe they would be glad of one less mother with a buggy on their buses though!
79

Mark C,

28/02/2008 16:22:42
#86, was the bus a Number 22 by any chance?
80

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:23:05
*blush* Goes to make a cup of tea
81

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 16:23:48
#76 "My daughter doesn't want to be treated any different from other folk" sorry but you just said it yourself - she does not wish to be treated any different, which means, you will wait your turn in the queue to get on a bus that you can get on.

My posts might sound non sympathetic, on the contry, i do understand you need to get on a bus but with the #22 being every few mins i fail to see the problem.

What if this was say for example the #16 which as far as ive seen only runs the old style buses and no ramps?

How long did you have to wait on the #22 to get on anyway?
82

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:28:44
MarkC - sadly it was a 24 which made me even more embarrassed and the very Devil in the eyes of the other passengers. I am surprised the wheelchair user did not take me to the Supreme Court of Human Rights!
83

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 28/02/2008 16:31:08
#93 then you could say you had rights too ;) - though, those people who decided to be bitchy, i'd forget about them - they dont knowyou :)
84

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:32:50
True - people think you miraculously become deaf when you have a buggy so can't hear their bitchy comments. I am not deaf but I do find I am very uncoordinated near them and just happen to run into their ankles *hehe*
85

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 16:33:17
#88 One tried to get me on York Place a couple of years ago. Fortunately I saw it and stepped back (the green man was lit solid and the red light for traffic was on). He slammed on his brakes and came to a stop about a metre past where I had been. In fairness, he looked like he had filled his trousers and was very apologetic.
86

streetwise,

somewhere in my head. 28/02/2008 16:35:26
How many seats on the bus for the abled,how many for the disabled,enough said.
87

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:37:05
Mine just didn't stop. I suppose I am lucky he didn't do a U-turn and try to get me a second time!
88

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 16:37:54
#97 the pecentage of seats given to the disabled is to do with the percentage of the population who are disabled, anyways we are talking about a much sought after 'space' as opposed to a seat.
89

Artemis,

Embra 28/02/2008 16:38:58
I am saddened by the number of people who think that equal rights for disabled people means they're entitled to no help.

Think of it this way. An ambulant person would have got on the bus and either found a vacant seat or stood. There would be no question of waiting for another bus. Telling a wheelchair user to wait for the next bus is not treating them the same as an ambulant person - they require a wheelchair space to be able to use the bus. Denying them that space is not treating them equally, it is discriminating against them. Because they require a wheelchair space, they have been denied access to a bus they could otherwise have used, where an ambulant person would have suffered no detriment.

You can't say equal rights = same treatment when you're not comparing like with like. In order to ensure that disabled people have equal access to facilities and services, sometimes they need additional help or support - "special treatment" - and to say they're not entitled to "special treatment" is to deny them equality of access to those facilities and services.

I think some people aren't acknowledging that yes, it can be difficult to manage a baby and a buggy on a bus, but babies grow up eventually and buggies are no longer needed. People in wheelchairs will usually always need the wheelchair - they don't grow out of needing wheelchair spaces - they need them for life. Is it really so difficult for parents to say "well, yes, it's a pain to take the baby out and fold the buggy up, but at least it will be over one day - that person will need this space forever"?
90

Artemis,

Embra 28/02/2008 16:43:08
Also, people always get older. Babies become children, children become adults. Adults will never go back to being children and therefore will never need a buggy or a pram again. Once your child is out of buggies and walking, s/he won't need it again.

Any of us could become disabled at any time.

Perhaps the able-bodied people should take a few minutes to think about what it means to be disabled, how their own life would be affected, how they'd like to be treated if it did happen and hope it never happens to them.
91

Mark C,

28/02/2008 16:44:47
#100, a wheelchair is for life, not just for Christmas?
92

streetwise,

somewhere in my head 28/02/2008 16:48:02
Buggy pusher 99,by the time you read this you will have read comment 100 I hope,do you understand now ?
93

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 16:48:34
Artemis - not all babies in buggies become able-bodied people you know!!
94

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 16:52:18
You make a fair point, but you fail your own test because you, too, are not comparing like with like.

Buses are often too full to allow additional people on. Ambulant people regularly simply have to wait for another bus. So it isn't a situation unique to wheelchair users.

Of course there is only one space per bus for a wheelchair user, and that assumes that the route in question has accessible buses, so the chances of a wheelchair user hitting the "too full" barrier is potentially higher. But it isn't unique.

I think most people with children in buggies would either fold them or get off the bus should a wheelchair user need the space. Most people too would help a parent with a buggy, or a wheelchair user, to facilitate their travel if possible.

What this story highlights far more than a disability rights issue, I think, is the issue that we are now so scared of interactions with strangers that we find negotiating such social situations almost impossible. Offering help to a wheelchair user can sometimes be considered condescending. Offering help to a woman with children can sometimes be considered threatening. And the less often we see it happening, the less likely it is that we will do it.

So we rely on the poor bus driver, who has enough to worry about, to order people about. He isn't going to do it. So we sit and seethe about perceived unfairness.

The truth is, most people are really nice, kind and helpful. But we make it very hard for them to demonstrate it.
95

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 16:55:37
I'm sorry but the "equal rights" line of debate is complete b*llocks.

If a wheelie is on the bus first, then someone with a buggy gets the next bus.

If a buggy is on the bus first then the weelie gets the next bus.

If a walkie can't get on because the bus is rammed full they get the next bus.

It's not difficult.

96

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 17:00:58
#104, precisely and #103 Yes i understand that able bodied people can find a seat but possibly for an able bodied person transporting two 4 month olds in a buggy and a 2yr old who has to be held at all times wont find it as easy to find a seat they do however have the option of using the space on the bus and for the most part standing, after having given up the seat next to the space for someone less able whilst holding onto said toddler for fear of their life should they let go. For the most part, whether they grow up to be able bodied or not young babies also have a disability, or an inability to walk, at least for around the first year. Therefore i'm sorry but if said space is available when i'm q ing for the bus it will be utilised by myself and i would not give up my fare by vacating the bus to let anyone else use it.
97

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 28/02/2008 17:06:24
Buggy Pusher...........You're a sad, sick moron. Thankfully the world is not made up of people with your selfish mentality. If you think that pushing a wheelchair is anything like pushing a wheelchair, then think again. Show me somebody pushing a disabled person in a wheelchair and I'll show you somebody with a sore back. Children grow out of their buggies when they're still little. Disabled youngsters grow to be heavy adults. My son is 37 and has lived his entire life in a wheelchair. The spaces at shop entrances are valuable for the additional space we need to get the chair alongside the car. Personally I couldn't care less if the bays were at the furthest corner of the car parks, it's the space we need. As for the ability to park on double yellow lines.....there's not a person in a wheelchair in the entire world who wishes they did not require this facility. Reading your incredibly stupid comments has made want to puke!
98

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 17:13:19
Im not selfish at all and i have never compared pushing a buggy to pushing a wheelchair. Is that to say no parents ever have a sore back either? What if a parent has chronic back pain? Yopu are missing my point entirely #106 has said it all. And not all children grow out of their buggies, who's to say mine will or wont? I still would not expect anyone to get off the bus in favour of me because i was pushing a wheelchair. And I have not said anything detrimental about disabled bays i have only stated that being disabled does not give you rights above the law to park anywhere and anyhow you please.
99

jimbob2402,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 17:23:29
the facts are simple, the woman got on the bus with the wheelchair, the mum with the buggy could have collapsed the buggy and had the toddler sit beside her. Obviously she could not be bothered so the wheel chair could not get on. She should be ashamed. It does not matter it’s the bloody 22 or a bus that comes every hour. Oh by the way buggy pusher, think you need your head examined. Next time you’re on the bus with a buggy I hope you get chucked off then you might see things in a different light.
100

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 17:23:36
I think its more offensive to call someone a "sad sick moron" and say their comments make you want to puke, just because they have a different opinion to your own!!
101

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 17:24:57
Lots of overreaction on this thread, the poster was not advocating burning disabled people or anything. *rolls eyes*
102

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 17:26:14
And before you start on me, I have a disability myself and my daughter has one, but is in a buggy as she is still small!
103

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 17:29:14
#112 How do you know the buggy could have been collapsed? How do you know the situation of the parent with the buggy?
104

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 17:34:28
#112 noone was chucked off the bus, they just werent allowed on just as i wouldnt be allowed on if the space is not vacant be that by a wheelchair user or another buggy user. I am not disruptive on a bus therefore the driver would have no reason to chuck me off. Yes possibly the buggy user in question could have easily folded her buggy had she wished to. All i am saying is not all people with buggys are undre the same circumstances and we are not all just too lazy or ignorant to fold our buggies. On said occasion the space was not vacant therefore the woman could not use the space, maybe she should have got over her disappointment in the 3 or so mins it took for her to wait on the next bus instead of making such an issue over nothing. I am not looking for a priority on the bus or special treatment but if the space is available for use why should i not use it i have as much right to use it as anyone else. I am transporting two people who currently are not able bodied. If 1 or 10 buses come past me which have wheelchairs/buggies on them i have to wait for the next bus with an available space...i wouldnt write in to the paper coz i had to wait about 3mins on a bus, which i'm surprised that if her daughter has been in a wheelchair for 2yrs, that this is the first time she has come across a non vacant space then she is lucky!!
105

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 17:38:13
Hear Hear!
106

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 17:40:03
When transporting my (mildly disabled) child in her buggy I have had to wait for hours in the rain and snow for a bus without a buggy, as 6 go past, and walked for miles. In fact its rare you can get on a bus first time with a buggy (and I literally cannot fold it due to personal circumstances). It wouldn't even have occurred to me to write to the paper/MP.
107

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 18:08:53
#43.buggy pusher
right...you got three kids under 3...ok so you have twins and a single...or three amazing child births.so then u have a double buggy.and you want a paraplegic to get on the bus and remarkabley get out the chair and fold it...you are 1 total ar*se liar
you make that clear.i am only up to #43 and starting to read more drivil.stay tuned...i do not believe what i am reading.
you got twins and 1 child that cant walk yet.(by the grace of god i hope all your kids are ok) so.common sense which you obviously havent got should prevail...get a baysitter,get your man to watch the kids when you go shopping,and get him to go with you on outings.simple,aint rocket science
108

gordon aka smoker and proud,

28/02/2008 18:10:40
#38...bigman
ermmmmmmmmmm try reading what you said....at 18 you cant hold a pcv(psv) licence.21 is the age....hmmmmmm you related to buggy pusher?
109

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 18:18:54
Yes, all people with kids should stay at home all day unless they have a babysitter or an unemployed man, until the child can walk!
110

,

28/02/2008 18:23:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
111

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 18:29:09
#120.....there are many different ways in which i or anyone can have 3 or more children under 3. It takes 9months (full term) to have a baby. Babies can survive from around 21weeks gestation. It takes Your body around 4-6wks to recover from childbirth while your body returns to normal Therefore anyone could possibly have 1, or more babies every 27weeks!....If you do read on, you will read my situation. That i have 3 children under age 3 does not make me a liar. My buggy does house 2 children, but takes up the same space as a single, chunky buggy (larger than a pushchair) I never said i want a paraplegic or any other person confined to a wheelchair to board the bus and fold their wheelchair up, i do have sense, i do realise this is not possible ( or said woman in story wouldnt have had such a problem getting on the bus with said child) Because i have children does not automatically mean i have 'a man' and neither does it mean that said man is sitting around the house 24hours a day would necessarily be at my beck and call. people do work you know. And why should i rely on other people to look after my children for me incase some disabled person wants to board the bus i am travelling on with my children. By that reckoning You are suggesting that rather than using public transport with small children they should all be minded by invisible childminders, i suppose you'd be happier if i left them in the house alone whilst travelling to wherever i need to go.
112

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 18:29:44
Errm, wishing someone's entire life to be awful because they'd make someone wait 2-3 minutes for another bus is a bit harsh, isn't it? Anyway this thread is becoming ridiculous. Just waiting to be attacked myself even though I have said I always get off to let people with wheelchairs on even though I have a child with a disability in a buggy. Off to watch the telly and enjoy real life a bit.
113

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 18:31:16
and that was directed at #123..cross posted.
114

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 18:33:42
#123 we are not talking about a seat on a bus i am sure the old person with walking and sight difficulties would much rather take up the next available seat than stand in an empty space provided for wheelchairs/buggies. there is nothing moronic about it. We are not talking about a seat. If i am out on my own on the bus and there are/arent seats avail That is a different story. i never said that whilst travelling on my own on public transport that i wouldnt give up my seat. This is not the issue with this story. And why should someone who has paid their fare give up the space and vacate the bus. we dont all have bus passes.
115

dobsta,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 18:46:27
BUGGY PUSHER dont you think its time you got off the computer and see to your three kids.that you keep on talking about
116

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 18:54:24
They are with the childminder (sarcastic) just because i can post on here does not presume that i am not or cannot look after my children at the same time.
117

Reckless,

911 inside job 28/02/2008 19:00:34
So, the bus was busy. Wait for another one. Duh!
118

Emma Dobbin's Auntie,

Fife 28/02/2008 19:15:09
Some of you people have no idea what it is like for Fiona, who as a single parent is bringing up her disabled daughter on her own. Emma has a right to travel on public transport in her wheelchair if it be a No 22. or any other bus that has a DISABLED SPACE. Unlike you able bodied people with able bodied children you have a choice to sit anywhere on a bus while Emma only has that one space clearly marked DISABLED SPACE. As a five year old wee girl my neice loves going on a bus and its a shame that some you think she is'nt entitled to travel on a no 22 or any other bus if the space is taken up by a buggy. Buggy Pusher you should be thankful that at least one day your children will be able to one day walk onto a bus while Emma will never have the option and will always require a DISABLED SPACE.
119

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 19:16:39
#124 buggy moron
ok i never presumed you had a man (hmmm immaculate conception, better watch what i sayin now!)
as i said on earlier post i HAVE three sons so i think i sorta know the gestation stuff.
in every post you are putting you are becoming more and more alienated. have a good nites rest oh! and throughout all these posts,who was feeding your kids? who bathed them? who is cooking? who is doing the house work when your are out gallavanting? ah the invisible babysitter and "that man" that never was!

hmmmmm
ok i'll have a go at you,
ermmmmmm you said a few hours ago that your werent gonna post again,honestly! now that says a lot about your integretiy!
hagd
120

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 19:19:35
#131 emmas aunty
would you be my aunty? plz...lol
you are so right as i have been saying al through this. i dont know you nor your family but you have my heart felt thoughts and prayers and wishes for emma and her obvious loving mum.i hope they dont meet people like buggy pusher ever!
121

James (1),

28/02/2008 19:23:59
What they should do is change the sign to say "For use of buggy or wheelchair". Users of wheelchairs should not get to force anyone to move. They want to be and therefore are treated just like any other member of the public. Get the next bus.

They should also put up a sign on buses which says " Only those people who have showered on the same day as they are travelling are allowed on this bus".

Another sign would be "Could male passengers sit with their legs together instead of spreading out as if they had just eaten a huge meal, the seat is build for two not one"
122

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 19:29:40
#134 no i said you presumed i had a man at my beck and call 24hours a day i did not say my children didnt have a father. neither did i say that he wasnt around today to look after them neither have i sat here for hours on end and not done anything else. And kids dont need bathed in the middle of the day and you are being sexist in presuming once again that the man cant have cooked the dinner.i didnt say i didnt have a man i simply said you were making a lot of presumptions. like the presumption that my kids will walk who says they will who says they wont that has nothing to do with the fact that it was a 22 the bus was busy so the woman had to wait on another bus like i or any other buggy or wheelchair user frequently have to do. And now you are also presuming that women have to stay in all day to do the housework what are we chained to the sink i suppose?
123

Emma Dobbin's Auntie,

Fife 28/02/2008 19:42:17
Buggy Pusher the bus was not busy. As it said in the article the driver did'nt ask the woman who by the way was with a man and the child was a toddler in a kick up buggy to get up and give Emma and her mum the WHEELCHAIR space. Disabled people have to fight very hard to get everything they need and I don't think they should have to fight to travel on public transport because the space is taken up by a kick up buggy. You don't have a clue what Fiona has to deal with on a day to day basis, and yet again this is another kick in the teeth for her to be told NO your DISABLED wee girl can't get onto to PUBLIC TRANSPORT even if the buses are 10 mins or 2mins apart, that is not the point. The point is a wee girl was refused access to PUBLIC TRANSPORT.
124

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 19:51:56
I do understand i was simply pointing out that it might not be so simple as was on said occasion for any and every buggy user to vacate the space. when i am out with the 2 in the buggy and the older one holding my hand that one space on the bus is equally as important to and sought after by me. I do believe i have said in your niece's case that the person may have been ignorant and lazy. but she would have still been refused on said public transport had there been another wheelchair user on board.
125

Emma Dobbin's Auntie,

Fife 28/02/2008 20:00:03
I understand that but on this occassion there was not another wheelchair user on the bus, and so Emma was entitled to that space. Simple the couple should have had the decency to take the toddler out of the buggy and kick it up and the driver should have at least asked the couple to vacate the space. It was very upsetting for both Fiona and Emma to be told to get off that bus cause there was no space for her wheelchair.
126

gordon aka smoker and proud,

28/02/2008 20:05:21
#135
okay,lets get the presume word sorted. you said on an earlier post that some people work,okay fair comment,so did i 18 hours a day at time with young kids,but,i still took my turn,which i looked forward to!and i was driving a bus,and before you comment,i have never had an accident! through lack of sleep!
you made the statement about having a man! not me.
babies dont need bathed through the day? wow...your kids must be brilliantly trained,so when they poop the watery poop all up the back etc,you just change them? wow...your good a standard to follow!
i (and i am a man) love cooking,ironing and doing housework,washing windows,hoovering,dusting and polishing, nothing at all wrong with that,its called equality...oooops equality,now theres a strange word eh? are people equal in a wheelchair through no ones fault?
instaed of whining and making yourself look more ricidulous by the posts go and do what you should b e doing.looking after your children and at the same time go get a life and start to realise that you are a moron and no one in reality will give you the slightest respect.thats what you have asked for and what are advocating.or else go suck you babies dummy and swith your pc off and look at your lovely little bundles of joy and savour them,the same as emmas' mum does everyday and night, and obviously emmas' family.
god bless emma and your lovely thoughtful family. pity the world was'nt all like you.
127

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:12:22
To be honest, whether they were in a wheelchair or not the space was occupied and that was that, another bus was along and they went home. Stop bleating and leave your anger at home. Your 15 minutes of fame has not lasted long.

Would you expect someone to get off the bus if there was only space for the wheelchair and not the mum? Thought not.

Wait your turn like everyone else. I am all for equal rights for people with disabilities, but you cannot have your cake and eat it. SOmetimes the Disability Discrimination is overused, mush like the human rights act that gives criminals more rights than the victim. PC plums gone mad.
128

Rollo Tommasi,

28/02/2008 20:19:07
These new style low-floor buses were introduced mainly to meet duties under disability rights laws. Buggy users (who always managed to access the old-style high-floor buses before) were allowed to use the spaces in the new buses as a privilege. But they have become so used to the privilege that they now consider it a right. Notice how much bigger prams and buggies have become in recent years? New parents buy big in part because they no longer plan for having to fold down their buggy on a bus. And it is the wheelchair users like Emma who are suffering as a result.

Lothian Buses (the firm, not its drivers) are being cowardly here. Their messages are not explicit enough, which makes it harder for drivers to feel they have the right to ask a parent to fold up their buggy. There ought to have clearer messages on their buses that spaces are for wheelchair users first and foremost.
129

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:20:02
Buggy Pusher, you have my vote for the most sensible person on here.

Dobbin... (is that not a horse, now there's a thought) Every sympathy, but lets be honest you obviously don't live in the real world where disabled people want to be treated as equal and there are actually other people out there... things won't always go your way.

Gordon the smoker.... I think that you are being narrow minded and very liberal. Do you have kids and have you tried folding a buggy recently?

I am off to get the #22 and fight people for the seat just so that maybe one day, Bobbin Dobbin will come on board, i can say that i fought an apparently good cause, and offended hundreds of disabled folk in the process.
130

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 20:22:34
#140
no
you perception is warped.if you are a really true person that accepts disabilities then would you stand, to help the situation?
i am not bleating, what i am doing is stating the bl@@dy obvious. looking a your spelling that way above your head anyway...go help buggy pusher with her kids maybe? that would be a good pastime for you both!
131

Emma Dobbin's Auntie,

Fife 28/02/2008 20:24:53
Franck just keep in mind that is a five year old wee lassie you have just insulted hope this makes you feel really proud.
132

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:25:12
Rollo,

Is it maybe that buggies are becoming bigger because parents are favouring a return to carycots for their child, something which has been proven as beneficial for their skeletal development rather than huddling them into badly designed folding buggies?

Certainly when my son was young we had a carrycot and chassis and to be honest to dismantle this and fold it down would have taken heads off most people on the bus and would have taken up the very little storage space that there is on buses nowadays.

Although i have to say that now he is older we have a Quinny Zapp buggy, i would advocate this to any parent of a toddler, it folds up neat enough to be stowed away in it's very own rucksack. It's light, sturdy and safe for the wee ones. Great but for around £130
133

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:27:12
Bobbin If you don't like it, you can pay your bridge tolls next time you leave.Point is - YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO INSULT PARENTS OVER WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN@T DO WHILST THREATENING THEM WITH DISABILITY DISCRIMINATION LAWS ans yes the capitals does mean that i was talking louder than usual.
134

,

28/02/2008 20:31:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
135

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:31:45
Gordon.

If my spelling is bad i think that you should look at your capital letters and punctuation young fella.

If that is all that you can insult me with it seems like i have hit a wee nerve, maybe, possibly, i'd say so.

I think that you will see by my message at 145 that i do actually have said buggy for the wee one that will fold up neatly enough so that it can be stored securely. Yes out of courtesy i let elder;y people and pregnant women take my seat as well as people with disabilities.

Let me know when you are next on and i might even give up my seat for you. Never forsaken a seat for someone so comically challenged before.
136

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:34:01
Now Gordon see Foo has that comicness within them to which i refer. Bit aggressive tho. But hey everyone has to have faults somewhere. Youknow we all have them.
137

,

28/02/2008 20:36:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
138

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 20:37:09
#139 if you were driving public transport for 18hrs a day that is against the law. pcv rules being that the most you are allowed to do in a day is 9, although you are allowed to do 10hours twice a week and during that you are required to take a 45min break after 4 and a half hours driving. Also at no point in this posting have i taken a personal angle against anyone yet you think you have the right to come on and wish someone a s h 1 t life because their opinions are different from yours. i think you should read your own posts to see who the moron is here
139

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 20:41:51
franc
1.i am more than likely older than you.the sorta giveaway is that you paid £130 for a buggy!
2. i was'nt really trying to insult you, what i was try to say to you in a moronic monotone (look that 1 up!) is that you are making irrelevant comments against the vast majority.
3.good for you for standing up,thats admirable.just what i said in an earlier comment.so whats your problem with people with disabilities who through no fault of their own or their parents,in a wheelchair,and a perfectly healthy parent and buggy that can (which most can,unless your the muppet brigade ie. buggy pusher!) be folded. i admire your thoughts on that.which is what the whole point of this debate is about.
so you have agreed! you would fold your buggy up,stand up etc.
brilliant franc
(ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhh dont tell everyone.....you lost the argument with that comment!)
but thank you anyway for relinquishing your first thoughts
cheers for the seat btw :-)



140

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:42:56
Whiskey Tango and Foxtrot?

Nah not an oaf my friend. And not a overzealous monkey either. Seems that you may be on your own there.
141

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:43:59
Gordon,

Looked up Moronic Monatone... Funny I see that there is a picture next to it? Didn't know you had spiked hair!
142

Paul Voltiare,

28/02/2008 20:44:54
Why don't Lothian Buses follow the supermarkets who allocate enormous amounts of parking space to mothers & child / disabled persons etc & allocate the bus seating on the same disproportionate basis ? Should they turn the lower deck on their buses, for instance, into a "pensioner, mother & buggy, pedal cyclist, disabled, foreign person & student" only zone ?
143

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 20:47:48
WELCOME PAUL
good god i missed ya all day...you been out scouring the buses for buggies?
oh...franc...god i wish i had! but thanks for the thought
144

Artemis,

28/02/2008 20:47:55
#117 "noone was chucked off the bus, they just werent allowed on just as i wouldnt be allowed on if the space is not vacant be that by a wheelchair user or another buggy user... On said occasion the space was not vacant therefore the woman could not use the space, maybe she should have got over her disappointment in the 3 or so mins it took for her to wait on the next bus instead of making such an issue over nothing. I am not looking for a priority on the bus or special treatment but if the space is available for use why should i not use it i have as much right to use it as anyone else. I am transporting two people who currently are not able bodied. ...

Let's get a few things made clear here.

If the wheelchair space was taken, you would be allowed on if you folded the buggy up. You would not automatically be refused access just because you had a buggy, only if you couldn't or wouldn't fold it.

On this occasion, the woman could not use the space because someone who had less right to it was in it. A child in a buggy was taking up the wheelchair space. The child was accompanied by two adults who could have folded the buggy and made room for the wheelchair to go into the wheelchair space.

You do not have the same right as anyone else to use the wheelchair space. Buggies are allowed to use the space if it is not required for a wheelchair user. The space is FOR wheelchairs.

I can't believe you're attempting to state that the young age of their children means they're "not able-bodied." They are not disabled - or if they are, you haven't said so - they are children. They will grow out of being children. They would not grow out of being disabled.
145

,

28/02/2008 20:50:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
146

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 20:50:52
#147 i have never asked for any aspecial treatment. i didnt know it was s[pecial treatment to let someone who has paid their fare on a bus to stay on to their destination. and as said previously i have not made a personal attack on anyone on here, so what gives you a right to make a personal attack on me....go and saw your arms off if that is what you so wish, then you wont be able to offend people on here
147

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 20:50:57
FFS people, get a grip here. My child is disabled but in a buggy and I get refused access to buses DAILY as I can't fold her buggy. Life's hard, I get over it. The vitriol spouted here is absolutely ridiculous!

But sorry, I am a person of no integrity *winks at Gordon*
148

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 20:52:02
Foo - that is a bit mild surely, why not reintroduce the death penalty? ;-)
149

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 20:52:12
#155 Actually that's not a bad idea... except the 22 only has a lower deck.

In any event, areas which have been set aside for disabled people, elderly people or parents with children - all of whom, in my view, deserve to have space reserved for them - should have an additional sign up which says

"Being fat and stupid isn't classed as a disability"

That should sort the supermarket car parks out at least.
150

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 20:52:42
#137 Hey Buggy Pusher, I think I am echoing earlier comments that you seem to have painted yourself into a corner on this one, I think you lost it a wee bit in straying into the parking debate.

Let it go though. I am mostly on your side side of the debate

It amuses me that so many walkies are leaping to defend the rights of wheelies. Cheers but we are OK. Most people posting here today will have no idea of what public transport was like 30 yrs ago for wheelies, train travel? sit in the guards van with no heating and beside the jar of maggots (true!). Today it is miles better.

The EEN look for cheap stories and the mum has painted herself into a corner too.

As other posters have also commented it's about respect for other folk. For example, on a few occasions when on the 22 I have had to get my wheelchair past a white stick and outstretched legs. You don't batter into someone in those circumstances do you? A bit of patience and you get past them with no offence to get off.

Looking forward to my Friday trip to work on the 22. Don't anyone ask me to move!



151

,

28/02/2008 20:55:06
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152

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 20:57:06
#158 the whole point is we are not talking about a seat on a bus we dont take up any seats therefore all and any are welcome to them and as stated previously if i was not standing on the bus with buggy and kids in tow then yes i would give up my seat to someone although i try to sit as far back as possible anyway when travelling alone therefore leaving all easy accesible seats for all who need them. and #157, yes they are not able bodied all be it that may be for a short time if they were able bodied at 4 months old then i would let them ably walk like my 2yr old
153

,

28/02/2008 20:57:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
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154

Hmm,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 20:57:39
Foo - do you want a bigger spoon to stir with?
155

,

28/02/2008 20:58:12
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Reason:
156

Franck,

28/02/2008 20:58:19
And another for Gordon.

Never go to bed on an argument, so I don't have them. I though that this blog was all about a debate. If it is an argument does that mean that we can all start shouting and swearing and that you will tell your mummy.

My point is that people with disbilities WANT to be treated equally, lets respect that. Rather than bleating on bashing parents for not giving up their seat. What if the mother with the child was pregnant? Would you throw her out of the seat?

This is Edinburgh, they were on the 22, there was probably three running right behind it as there always is lothian buses are so good with the timetable that like the 31 and 26 they run three every five minutes and they are never always full.

I am not vindicating people who are ignorant but what we have to realise is that the world does not rotate around disabled people. We are all part of a society and all have a part to play.

So i would vacate my seat, yes i was brought up like that. I say please and thankyou and will teach my children to do the same.

This article is not about Emma who was upset because the driver said there was no room. This article is about her mother who thinks that she deserves to be treated differently from others.

All the what ifs about leaving her alone at the bus stop after the last bus? eh come on luv, think the social work would be concerned if you allowed her out on her own until the last bus.

This is just another 15 minute famer who is having a gripe and using the media to get their own way.I know a mother that was asked to leave the bus and made to pay another ticket home because a wheelchair user wanted on.

Was this not unreasonable? Did she trawl lothian buses through the EEN. Did her auntie come along to see their 15 minutes of fame and bad mouth people who don't agree with her partisan views?

No because we do whet everyone else should, get on with life and learn from our past experiences.


You really must learn though tha
157

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:01:17
Foo read the coments that i have made before you assume. On this occasion it just makes an ASS out of U rather that ME.
158

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 21:02:06
#163 You call to mind an old "comrade" from some years ago, a Glasgow-based wheelchair user who regularly chained himself (and his wheels!) to the doors of buses to protest their lack of accessibility. He won in the end. Hell of a guy.

We've still a way to go, though, to catch up with people like the Dutch and the Scandics - I remember 5 years ago being amazed at the universal accessibility built into their public transport systems. Still, it's been great progress here recently.
159

,

28/02/2008 21:02:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
160

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:07:11
Gordon, I meant to say that you really must learn to avoid arguments. They are not good for your health.
161

Emma Dobbin's Auntie,

Fife 28/02/2008 21:09:58
Franck go and read comments no 76, 77, 78 these are from Emma's own mum, this is not about getting 15mins of fame this about the rights of a disabled person, this is nothing to do with Fiona wanting to be treated differently from others. Again I stress this is about a wee girl that was not allowed on the bus, not her mother, her mother could have sat any where but her daughter can't. This DEBATE has gone way of the point of the story. The story was about Emma not her mum.
162

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:14:58
Don't set off your fireworks with this one Foo hear me out, surely your relative would be able to take another seat and not want to sit on the floor where the wheelchairs should be?

Of course i think that the girl should be allowed access to the public transport system and she was... the next bus came along shortly after. What we have to realise is that there was no threat to her safety and although suffering from disabilities i would hate to think that she would be described as vulnerable.

Vulnerable is not out shopping with her mother whether she was in a wheelchair or not.

I also think that you would be being sarcastic about the caring society? While i feel for the girl, my issue is with the 15 minute famer using her child as a pawn.

Whether there was space or not, like Hmmm says, get over it and get on the next bus. Millions of us have this problem every day and 99% get on with it. Time for the 15 minute famer to think again before calling the evening news.

I have been aggrieved many a time and in some cases very recently... Life goes on and so we must.
163

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:16:41
Emma Dobbins Auntie. Every sympathy, but read every other comment from folk who get on with life. If this is distressing then i am afraid that life is and won't be all roses. I hate to be the bearer of the bad news.
164

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 21:17:30
ok franc
1st comment b4 i forget (having previously worked with lrt as it was then known as) if a person bought a valid taicket but for some unforseen circumstance they had to lease the bus, as your suggestion said, then the driver, if he was doing his job properly should have signed the ticket with his driver # then the ticket holder would be allowed on the next bus (ie.2 wheelchairs and not enough room but inadvertantly did'nt notice!)
2nd.i am not arguing,i am debating but in a way to try to make a wee bit sense out of this. all i have and am saying is simple. without discrimination etc and not trying to make it look like a person in a wheelchair is different, they do not want to be that way! but surely common sense shuld prevail here and a wee bit thought. a buggy CAN be folded....a wheelchair cant'.
its simple manners,logic and consideration.
oh and btw.if you do ever get on a bus i am driving.then i will gladly stand up and let you have my seat!(you'll recognise it easily,,,its got a big wheel,couple of peddles and some buttons tp play with whilst your amuzing yourself)

now just one wee thing (getting beer on the brain here!)
when you say (not directed at franc!)
disabled car parking bay?
disabled toilet?
disabled car sticker?
do you really mean that?
#1 disabled car parking bay (or should it be parking for the disabled?) doea that mean that the area designated isnt there,or not working?
disabled toilet? whats the point if its disabled?
disabled car sticker, then you get a ticket cause it aint real if its disabled!
165

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 21:23:29
#171 Duncan, I am no Tommy Sheridan or Amar Amwar in the sense of campaigning or grandstanding. I've been to Amsterdam a good few times in the last few years (trams not accessible when I have been there) and Denmark only once and again not a great experience.

Edinburgh public transport deserves more credit. I came here to live in 1990. As far back as then I think there was a stipulation that every black cab had to be wheelchair accessible. The first city in the UK if not Europe with that rule I think. OK, then as now not every driver is medically qualified to lift wheelchairs in and I have had had loads of experience of drivers switching the light off and driving past when they see it is a wheelchair flagging them down which I think sometimes is misused by drivers. Short sighted on their part as I am a good tipper and an easy wheelchair but in general wheelchair users are well served in Edinburgh.

Credit where credit is due though.
166

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 21:25:00
can i wish you all a safe nights sleep and pleasant dreams.and may all you consciences stay with you.remembering that not all folk are equal through no fault of their own,spare a wee bit of your dreams for those less fortunate than us,hoping and praying that it never happens to anyone let alone your own, as the saying goes..."there but the grace of god goes I"
i hope not for anyone. and for those sadly touched by misfortunes in life (a raw deal as like to say) god bless you and i hope that in future people will look at you and think the above,and have a wee bit consideration instead of their own me me me lives.
167

,

28/02/2008 21:27:25
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168

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:28:29
Thanks Gordon.

Just as well my licence says something about a

C
C+E
D1
and a
D

just for good measure, that and the reverse within the herringbone. Pretty easy really. Great fun annoying everyone else on the road though isn't it.
169

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 21:32:51
#180 "So yes, I don't care what disabled people think, I view those that are less physically capable as myself as more vulnerable."

WTF? Who are you? Daley Thompson? That is the most patronising comment on this thread, even if well intentioned.
170

,

28/02/2008 21:35:08
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171

,

28/02/2008 21:38:21
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172

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:38:25
Foo,

been over this already, read the comments, i have said that yes i do offer mmy seat, however i have to point out that ther are maybe other issues that are not understood.

Maybe not on this occasion and i have said that i will not defend the ignorant, however we have agreed on something that yes i believe that the scots are generally a polite bunch really.

Some of them wear a really funny brown coloured imitation tartan though and drink straight from the bottle to save on the ecological disaster that is washing up liquid. (that and shower gel)

I am always amazed by how they always wear a lovely sun hat, usually the same colour as their imitation brown tartan though. Stops the skin cancer i think. And they speak in the most wonderful language. (whits that ah here yi sayin, whit d'ya mean charmaines hud anuvver wain... huv yoo goat the schmack doll)

Seriously though. I do agree with you. However you must see that there is another side to the story. Maybe not this one, but in general.

WE ALL GET ON WITH LIFE!

WJR has said it all. Access has came on leaps and bounds over the years, but we must all co habitate this planet, until we move to Paul Voltaires.......... when he lowers the rent!
173

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:41:48
Foo,

have you realised by maybe reading the comments that WJR is maybe disabled? Time for bed i think... after you apologise. You have really come true with your fantastic noun - Tool. Just that wonderful language that i was meaning.

WJR. I apologise if i have offended you in any way tonight, i retract my first post - you now become the most sensible poster on this article. I now must call you YODA. Seriously though, all the best.
174

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:43:01
May the force be with you all. Goodnight.
175

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 21:47:19
#183 Foo you truly are a fud. Who am I to comment? Only one of the category of people you are patronising.

What are your "qualifications" to comment? Other than, I presume, being able to walk along the pavement dragging your knuckles?

Choob!
176

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 21:48:59
#187 Goodnight Franck (anyone with that name is OK by me)

177

,

28/02/2008 21:53:09
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178

Buggy Pusher,

28/02/2008 21:53:26
all along i have stated that yes maybe in the case of this story the buggy owner was ignorant. I have only been trying to point out that not every buggy owner 'chooses' not to fold their buggy just coz they cant be bothered moving their so called fat lazy bums off seats ( although why all mothers are supposed to be fat and lazy, i don't know) I dont think that is a reason for some to make a personal tirade against me. You seem to think i am stupid and against the disabled. I am not i have disabled friends, and yes i do realise what being disabled entails and yes maybe that means that by common courtesy the woman with the buggy on the bus in this occasion should have folded. All i am trying to say is that every mother with young children travelling on the bus shouldnt be looked upon in disgrace like they are stealing a right from the disabled by choosing to travel on the bus. And with the personal comments against me, it's just as well i am a strong person and take things like that on the chin. Yes this was meant to be a debate not an argument and not an excuse to pick on people. Goodnight.
179

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:53:30
Yoda.

I think that you have eliminated Foo with your powers. Please however be aware of the Foo mind tricks tho.

As for being OK, Well anyone from the green side of town is always welcome as a friend.

Seriously tho. I think the wife is going to ask for a divorce. oops no just checked, she is watching a baby birthing program, might be safer staying on here!
180

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:56:12
Foo, sorry when you said tool i got you mixed up with chavvy. Didn't really see the savvy part. ALthough maybe your mouth resembles a Lavvy... i am just not sure any more.

Buggy Pusher - i would probably leave it befor you are attacked by the chavvy.
181

Franck,

28/02/2008 21:58:01
Anyway, definately going.

Foo - feel free to abuse me when my back is turned - you have already disgraced yourself with your tool comments so you may as well.
182

,

28/02/2008 22:02:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
183

Shaz,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 22:07:06
1. Having a disabled child, you get DLA, (disability living allowance) which is for help getting about.... i.e taxi's etc,£500 or near a month) and you can also get a taxi card, where you get a reduced fare..... Also her mother will get extra benefits to care for her (care allowance, i think it's called) etc etc.... c'mon, have a little come and go here.... her daughter was sitting, not standing in agony etc.....
184

,

28/02/2008 22:09:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
185

Dr DoGood,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 22:10:08
As a driver with Lothian buses I think you all need to know a few things.
1.the sign says PLEASE VACATE THIS SPACE no must
2.until the latest DDA we as drivers did have power to force the buggy to be folded or removed from the vehicle
3.under new guidlines not by Lothian buses but from disabled groups who want equality for disabled passengers we can no longer force a passenger to move from the space
As a previous commenter has already pointed out this causes drivers problems everyday and if you ask any driver he would tell you the best thing would be not to allow buggies on board at all,however you have to look at how many times you actually pick up a wheelchair user the simple answer would be to make the space available to anyone unless a wheelchair needs to use it any passenger must vacate and yes clear signs would help,as for passengers who stand at the front of the bus when there is room to the rear that is just pure ignorrance and cause delays to other passengers so before you all start shouting at the driver take a look at your own behaviour when onbord see if you can make yours and others journey safer and more comfortable if you hear a driver asking passengers to move dont just stand there move others might follow then we can get all passengers to where they want more quickly.
186

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 22:12:10
#195 How you have the brass neck to criticise WJR given all the utter nonsense you've just come out with is beyond me.

Don't. Patronise. People. Who. Are. Smarter. Than. You.
187

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 22:13:44
#191 Hey Buggy Pusher I hope you have gone to bed. Some rammy you have generated. I will still look out for the mad bird with the stary eyes and 3 sprogs and leap off the the 22 to give you my seat.

Sorry, that was a bit patronising not to say insulting wasn't it?

Take care and good night to you too.
188

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 22:14:56
Can I just say if I was doing it for 15 mins of fame I would have went a bit further that just an article in the evening news OK.

People who know me, which none of you do, know that everything I do is for my daughter not myself. I put this article in the paper not only for my daughter but for anyone else who is disabled to come forward if they think they have been discriminated against.

All you folk that work can put your child in an after school club no probelm, I can't, it ain't that easy for me. I have to apply for funding for everything my daughter needs, EVERYTHING.

Yeah maybe I was talking about a number 22 bus, this time but it aint about the fact that it was a number 22 bus it was the point of the article which most if you are not following.

There is no way I would let my child of 5 go roaming the streets in her wheelchair alone so do not accuse me of not being a good parent OK. Come and live in my shoes for one/two wks and see if your point of view is the same. I don't think it will be some how.

Thanks to everyone who posted nice comments and see where I am coming from. As for the rest of you god help if you or anyone you know ends up in a wheelchair then maybe you will get an idea what disabled folk are up against in this sad, sad world.

Anyway I know why I did it, I did it for my daughter like I do everything for my daughter. I ain't getting into an argument at the end of the day folk are allowed their opinions fair enough and I certainly did not do it for 15 mins of fame which my family and friends will totally agree with.




189

Franck,

28/02/2008 22:17:17
Foo. You disappoint me yet again. and have proven what a sleekit see you next tuesday that you really are!

I won't be on the buses tomorrow. I'll be relaxing and enjoying my very existance GETTING ON WITH IT.

Didn't say that i was off to sleep either. I will be back tomorrow after short stays in Charles de Gaulle and Heathrow.

And yes,I will stand for the old dear, as long as she has the relevant qualifications and can fly the plane...... then i can sit in the back.

190

wolfette,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 22:27:11
the parent with the buggy should have immediately have folded it up and moved to another seat.
191

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 22:36:52
#201 Hey, take care Mocta. It can be a pain getting around but believe me, Edinburgh is a lot better than a lot of places - Glasgow and London to name only 2.

You have kicked off a lot of debate but I don't think anyone, me included, is having a go at you personally, it just kicked off a bit. I get as annoyed as you with some incidents on the bus but everyone, able bodied or disabled does.

The 22 is a great service for people in wheelchairs, let's just say that maybe the person with the buggy may not have seen you and the driver can't really do much but did you not get a bus just afterwards? On occasion (OK only once) I have had to wait for the third bus before I could get a space but the point is I knew there would be a bus pretty soon I could get on, not like even 10 years ago far less 30 years ago.

Access is improving but it is still a crap situation to deal with sometimes.
192

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 22:37:46
#198 dr do good
i have absolutely no idea how long you have worked with lothian buses and previous employers but my comments (cpc to pt 5) are directed at you and rules and laws.
you as the driver (not lb way because they are not above the law!) have the absolute right to eject a passenger providing they are not under 16 (prove that1?)
you have the right if passengers stand (where they do) at he front of the bus in front of the notice that should clearly state do not stand in front of this sign etc.
you can and should sit tight at the stop until the rules are obeyed.
you do not get out your cab for any reason other than an accident.
you can and have the powers to search any person trying to gain access onto a pcv vehicle,you also have the power to get on your radio and ask for assistance should a situation occur on board your vehicle.
you must at all times look in your near side mirror before driving off,(of course you look in your offside prior to that) but by doing that, what you had to do during your test, would mean that you would see someone running to get you. thats called customer friendly and as you are an ambassador for a company it also good pr.
i could go on.
lb's training leaves a hellova lot to be desired.(ex employee and well over 30 years as a touring driver all over europe etc.(that means i had three )sometimes 4) pedals to play with,4 brakes,18 gears.
lb are pretending.
a space provided as the sign says for people with disabilities, that means what it says.same as the front seats for the elderly.why cant people just use a wee bit common sense and think about others.
no
not in this day and age sadly.
if lb run the services properly then we would'nt be having the crap that we are experiencing today tryin to relay rails for trams that were ripped up years ago.
council owned and dumbo run.
not a clue!
simple.....space is provided for wheelchairs,as the sign clearly states.buggy users,if no wheel chair there.then its a bonus,and no doub
193

gordon aka smoker and proud,

28/02/2008 22:51:07
ooooops and that should have said ...not prior...after you look in near side mirror then you look in off side to make sure its clear to pull away,remembering that if any sort of vehicle is passing you they have the right of way.not.."i'm bigger and heavier i get out anyway.
194

Duncan in Edinburgh,

28/02/2008 22:54:37
#205 You're actually telling him how to drive a bus now? Good Lord.
195

gordon aka smoker and proud,

28/02/2008 22:57:07
duncan...yes i am because i have the qualifications to do that,which is what cpc is along with 30 odd years of touring,as a driver and courier/guide(not white van man!)
196

Mother of Child Turned away,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 22:57:57
To all the ignorant people out there i.e (SHAZ) I am Emmas step dad and you could not be anymore incorrect with the statements you have made,
1.Emma's mother does most defiantly not receive £500 a month DLA.

2.The taxi card which Emma was given only entitles her for £2.00 of every trip she makes in a taxi no matter how far or how short, basically this charge is the call out for a taxi to her house.

3.Emmas mother and myself are both in full time employment which means we both pay our tax's and there for do not qualify for any government hand outs to help with the care of Emma.

Folks lets not drift away from the point here Emma a disabled child deserves all the same rights as a ( normal ) child i.e the basic human right to get on a bus.

cheers.
197

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 22:59:04
A Baby or Toddler, is just as Important as a disabled person, in respect that they cant look after themselves, maybe baby was sleeping, the 'kerfuffle' of Mummy trying to lift Baby and to fold push-chair and find a space for it, is just an unnecessary hastle for Mum and the Bus Driver who would have to wait until Mum and her Baby were reseated!
Considering the 22's run every 5mins the bus Driver was
'Quite Right'!!
198

Mother of Child Turned away,

edinburgh 28/02/2008 23:09:12
Obviously you have not read my comments.

I wish people would get away from the fact that the 22 bus was mentioned it could have been any bus so lets forget it was a 22 OK.

As previously stated if anyone had the time to read my comments further up I agree with what folk are saying to a certain extent anyway. The space is big enough for a wheelchair and a buggy. If the bus driver would get their bums out their seat to help folk then they may get rewarded like the reward scheme they have started.

The sign needs to be changed if they are for buggies as the sign is misleading. who wants some rude bus driver saying to someone in a wheelchair you ain't getting on and driving away when it clearly has a disabled sign on the window. Get the sign changed then.

I am getting very annoyed with peoples attitude on this article. I am my daughters voice and as disabled folk have to fight for everything then why not the right to board public transport.




199

gordon aka smoker and proud,

28/02/2008 23:13:52
#210
what the hell planet are you from?
a baby if treated correctly and brought up from birth properly is easy to handle.a normal buggy (not a designer peice of garbage) is easy to fold and stow.
are you seriously saying that a person in a wheelchair has no rights to travel when they most probably most need to? if you had taken the trouble to read all the above comments then you are most defo in the minority.
people who are disabled have NO choice at all neither have the parents. the get on with it.if the ignorant buggy pushers of the world just got a life along with morons like you then what a nice place it would be!
the space thats in question is provided for wheelchair users, no wheelchairs there,then in you go with your buggy,no prob.but at the next stop theres a wheelchair, whats the commonsense thing to do,whats the respectful thing to do?
fold the damn thing up. a baby can be comforted in mum or dads knee,correct?
and the alternative.
what the debate is about is respect,sensibility and compansion.no one is arguing that certain servises are frequent,more than others. take tha 18 for instance.every half hour,goes to eri new hospital.so baby in buggy sleeping cause mummy or daddy been shopping,which they are more than entitled to do. then teres wee emma,in a wheelchair through no fault of her own or her loving parents.and she cant get on because the arrogant t*t with the buggy cant be ars*d folding it up.
get a life.
200

gordon aka smoker and proud,

28/02/2008 23:21:34
209
as i have posted today and tonight many many times. my thoughts and feelings are with you and your very loving family. i sincerely hope that emma has a magic life (which by you and your ladies post signify that she will) and the brain dead that have went against the story without reading the facts get a life. i hope this never ever happens again.
tc and i hope you get satisfaction from parliament.because the council run charabang service leaves a hellova lot to be desired! double standards.
201

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 23:38:12
#211 Mocta, I think you are still missing the point a bit. It was about the 22 and there are loads of them.

A point which I think I has not been made is this. I agree the space is usually enough for a buggy and a wheelchair but if both the person in the wheelchair and the kiddy in the buggy need to be accompanied by an able bodied person there is not always enough space for the able bodied person to sit alongside the person they are responsible for within that space.

You haven't answered any of the many questions posed so far though, how long did you have to wait to get on a 22?

As I also said earlier, try flying with BA, try to get on the Heathrow Express or getting a taxi in London and then moan about the 22.
202

snowowl,

USA 28/02/2008 23:43:00
ok i'm not from scotland i'm from USA n here handicap means just that you take handicap place your fined as is should be so you got 3 r what ever kids you got you don't want to be bothered with them not the handicaps fault you drive car here you park in handicap spot n you not handicaped n a heart beat your car toed n your finded this is so sad it was little girl n not her fault you all a sad bunch but i got to say Gordon aka smoker n proud hit nail on head so here's to you gordon

203

WJR,

Leith 28/02/2008 23:47:18
To all who commented on this, loving the EEN advertising at the bottom of this thread. See you all later I am off to buy a 22 shaped wheelchair. With portable ramps. And a lift!
204

gordon aka smoker and proud,

28/02/2008 23:50:58
#214
ok
go with easy jet
how many wheelchair users do you know that seem to do that journey same as you (paid maybe by your company?)
i have lived and worked in london and i agree with you, its horrendous as an able bodied person let alone anything else.times are changing and we...thats all us posting in here etc have got to make that change happen to give less fortunate people,whether blind,on crutches,in a wheelchair or have a disability that we cant see but its there.lothian buses a good few years ago "proudly announced" the east access floor buses to enable all disabled people to travel unrestricted. they didnt say buggy by the dozen and bug*ger the rest.
all other places should start learning that absolutely everyone has the divine right to freedom.if that means that a person and buggy can be folded to make space for a person less fortunate.what a wonderful world eh?
learn
maybe then ba and all their destinations and al the other comapnies might,just might accept that there are a lot of people out there,less fortunate,but have the right for access and freedom of movement.
205

SunshineMeadow,

Edinburgh 28/02/2008 23:58:01
The space being discussed here was designed for wheelchairs but buggy pushers seem to want to claim it for themselves. Have you noticed that buggies today are huge? This must be because they can now use the wheelchair space on buses. If you want a buggy space go speak to bus companies. Wheelchair users fought hard for that space.
206

*raven*,

28/02/2008 23:58:30
i agree that should a parent be able to fold their pram or buggy to accomodate a wheelchair user then they should. but there seems to be a lot of people demonising mothers. a lot of comments being thrown around that they chose to have children and they should walk for however many miles they need to travel because they got themselves in that situation. it makes it sound like you have commited a crime having a child and must be punished. people griping about how buggys should be banned from buses because in their day, you couldnt get on a bus with one. well, i am sorry that buses were not more accessible but dont tell me that if there were buses like today back then that you wouldnt have used them. parents have as much right to use public transport as the next person. i see a lot of comments about taxis and driving too - if you dont drive (for whatever reason) and you cant afford to take taxis everywhere, but need to get to the other side of edinburgh, why should you have to walk?

as for pregnant women - i am heavily pregnant and not once has anyone offered me a seat, i get nothing but dirty looks and nasty comments from people who assume i am a lot younger than i really am - the elderly being the worst culprits. for the record, i would surrender my seat to an elderly person regardless of the fact i am pregnant as it is common courtesy. again though, people seem to demonise pregnant women saying that they chose to get pregnant, live with it. pregnant women arent asking to be given priority, its just common decency - the bump is heavy and you have no idea what state of health that woman is in either, pregnancy puts a big strain on the body and goes hand in hand with a lot of illnesses.

personally, i am not looking forward to travelling with my baby when it is born. it is one thing that has terrified me from day one - getting around with my baby. i will walk when possible but i am dreading getting on buses with my buggy, simply because of the sort of attitude di
207

snowowl,

usa 29/02/2008 00:00:27
oh sunshinemeadow you r ma hero that's the very point of all this
208

Darren :-),

Edin city but on ma way to ibrox 29/02/2008 00:00:36
Mother of child who was turned away - can you email me at spare1email@googlemail.com - Something you said above rang true and i'd like to talk to you about it in private :) Thanks
209

*raven*,

29/02/2008 00:00:45
continued from post 221- displayed by some people - the sort of attitude that i have noted in many posts. it angers me that i am actually even having to worry about going out in public with my baby, i think its disgusting the way people treat parents - particularly young mothers. i would actually be interested to see what would happen if my brother who is disabled was to take my child on a bus in a buggy. he would not be physically able to fold the buggy while carrying the baby because of his disability...so should he be thrown off the bus in favour of the wheelchair user? what if he waited half an hour for that bus and the wheelchair user just happened to turn up just as the bus arrived?

since when did the elderly, children, pregnant women and parents with buggys become public enemies? and having a disability is a difficult thing to have to live with but you have to draw the line somewhere. constantly fighting for equal rights but quick to play the disability card as soon as you arent given priority.
210

gordon aka smoker and proud,

29/02/2008 00:05:04
#215 grushka
i love the way you said that you not from this country then say "this" country. me thinks you a studnet radical that wants to have free beer and free dope...to suit your barin cell thats getting so so lonely on its own.if you are not really from this country the thank god,your defo not welcome.we got enuff er*e holes here without tw@ts like you.
your comments are so derogatory and off key. you dont live in the real world,you have no clue, i dont know what your gender is but i presume reading that post that you are the 1 that broke out of signory weaver's stomach.
get a life,get some real life training,
maybe you should call your parents (et style me thinks!) and ask them how they dragged you up.
you are not worth the ground that i walk on or anyone else.
now go away ,curl up and just dont give us in scotland the benefit of your inane drivel. maybe one day that single brain cell might get a partner.then you can rattle.
p1ll0ck


211

WJR,

Leith 29/02/2008 00:11:56
#218 Gordon, I am not specifically slagging off BA (not paid for by my firm btw) just drawing a comparison to show that that travel is still not universally ideal. I agree re Easyjet. I have also had a lot better experience with Globespan but those services were not convenient for my most recent journey.

Lothian Transport are doing a good job.

Maybe you should re-read my post at 214 re the available space on the 22.

I am no "champion" for disabled rights and would never claim to be such but I do have a lot of practical experience over the last 30 years and so probably better placed than many posting on this thread to comment.
212

SunshineMeadow,

Edinburgh 29/02/2008 00:15:49
I would say the sign is ok. I am sure that disabled people would prefer the request to be friendly rather than demanding.
213

snowowl,

USA 29/02/2008 00:23:34
i'm sorry where did i miss the part pregnant women women with children became the disabled n why didn't the non disabled git off bus n wait fer the next 1 why did it have to be the disabled 1 to wait fer nother bus am i disabled yes i am n if you were here i'd see you fined everytime do i use ma disability as excuse no i do not i just think that a 5 yr old was denide her rightful place
214

WJR,

Leith 29/02/2008 00:26:29
#228 Snowowl, do you post on the football threads as King Kenny? I can't understand a word of of what you say.
215

snowowl,

USA 29/02/2008 00:27:21
really then learn english
216

snowowl,

USA 29/02/2008 00:31:11
guess you just in here fer the attention guess what your failing at that 1 try new job
217

WJR,

Leith 29/02/2008 00:46:41
#230/231 Brilliant Snowowl. I always like to go to bed with a smile on my face. Someone like you, based on your posts, supposedly posting from the US telling me to learn English. "Git" this side of the pond generally means someone like you.

You are as funny as Bob Newhart, and I thought he was very funny.

Well done, now try and catch up with the serious points posted.

Have a nice night!
218

snowowl,

USA 29/02/2008 00:54:45
to WJR wish i could say something nice about you but i don't see anything but stupid on your part i got the point of the post shame you didn't get what i said must be gray cell problem on your part
219

earnabob,

29/02/2008 00:57:08
Yet again a thread where people are resorting to mainly arguments.

It seems gone is the thought that everyone should respect each other.

I think a disabled space created for that purpose should be used for that purpose when required.

I admit I sometimes loathe the many mothers with buggies as they seem to think they have priority over anyone else, the right to push other people out of the way, walk along chatting to each other taking up whole width of the pavement etc. This does not mean however I assume they are all like that, I just judge the ones I see doing it.

I think disabled people should be treated as equally as possible which does mean they require as much help as they as an individual wants.

The "there's another bus in a couple of minutes" argument may seem valid as able-bodied people have to do it all the time is just stupid as the next ten buses could be full of ignorant people refusing to give up the space.

For a start I see people, and yes mother and buggies included, dive onto buses in front of disabled people while the driver is attempting to get the ramp down rather than waiting for the disabled person to board.

And for the record any woman has the right to have as many children as they want as quickly as they want. On the other hand if you struggle to have them with you on public transport perhaps you should actually take real responsibility and save your children the stress by organising help when you need to go anywhere (I realise this can be difficult but it is your choice).

I have and will continue to give up seat space to elderly, mothers, disabled whenever necessary even to the point of leaving a bus as I tend to time any transit so I am a couple of buses early to my destination (Okay I'm time compulsive, but many things can delay your trip).
220

snowowl,

USA 29/02/2008 01:06:44
i agree with you but to put disabled aside for a mother with buggy is wrong i'm sorry like i said the child should of been let on bus n whoever the non disabled was should of had to catch next bus
221

WJR,

Leith 29/02/2008 01:16:36
#234 You have come into this thread late. Many of the posters have already made the point that it would be good if people had more respect but that is not the issue on this story.

The point about a bus behind is entirely valid on this thread as with the service in question there could well have been at least 2 buses immediately behind, a point which Mocta consistently fails to answer.

Personally, I have more of an issue with able bodied people who use the wheelchair accessible toilets because they can't be bothered waiting in a queue. That poses me more problems than having to wait another 2 or 3 minutes for a bus as there is often no accessible alternative to the accessible toilet which can be a bit more of a pressing concern. Possibly too much information in that last sentence though.
222

snowowl,

USA 29/02/2008 01:27:32
oh lord help those that git in your way of a body funtion n you don't understand me what a joke
223

snowowl,

USA 29/02/2008 01:32:04
and for the record i am in the USA n we treat our disabled better
224

WJR,

Leith 29/02/2008 01:43:37
Oh dear. Snowowl, there is a phrase you may not be familiar with.

The US and the UK (OK probably it was England) - 2 nations divided by the same language.

I'm gittin off to bed now. Cheers
225

earnabob,

29/02/2008 02:05:10
#236

Sorry you feel because I didn't post sooner my point is any less valid, I don't spend all my time in front of my computer reading the news (and no I'm not suggesting anyone else does either).

As for the whole next bus thing, as I believe I said it shouldn't matter - anyone using the space who is not disabled should be keeping at least half an eye out for anyone in greater need getting on instead of living in their own world.

I agree with you 100% about disabled toilets.

From your previous comments I know things are better than they were in public transport but that still doesn't make it right for this to occur.

To snowowl, having read quite a few articles and journals from the usa (I am training to be a nurse) you don't treat your disabled any better (my brother was on holiday over there whilst wheelchair bound and found it very tedious) but you do patronise people far more.
226

snowowl,

USA 29/02/2008 02:29:17
ok earnabob where your brother was here i don't know but where i'm at n from yes we do respect n take better care of our disabled i'm sry he had bad time n as for patronising well i find that from you ppl too so does that make you right n me wrong r me right n you wrong see here if your n my disabled spot your fined there your told catch next link so what's your point
227

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 29/02/2008 03:42:17
CANADA IAM GOING TO BED AFTER READING ALL THIS GOOD MORNING HAVE A NICE DAY
228

Hmm,

Edinburgh 29/02/2008 06:35:43
Raven - you are a star. Yes, if a person in a wheelchair gets on - fold your buggy. If not, why not use the space. Or should it just go to waste? It IS scary how people demonise people with buggies for no reason, apart from the fact the OCCASIONAL one might be selfish, as are some people without kids. I too was offered a seat ONCE while pregnant. It is very interesting that "any bus driver will say they should ban buggies from buses" and goes a long way to explaining the bad attitude we get, for no reason other than using a space which is there. People on this thread need to look at themselves. It's sad this one occasion of thoughtlessness happened but the ranting and nastiness about mothers is pathetic if not disturbing!
229

earnabob,

29/02/2008 09:29:53
#241
He was in Florida, and what annoyed him the most was people automatically jumping to help him when he didn't need it, and yes he thought they talked down to him.
My brother has fought for disabled people to be treated like other people and most either can ask for help when they need it or have someone with them who can make requests.
He does not agree with legislation fining people for being thoughtless, he just wants public awareness to be at a level where people with disablement are treated with respect. There will always be thoughtless people and fining them doesn't seem to achieve much, I have met many disabled drivers who don't want others punished for taking their parking places - just educated.
I am not criticising where you are from per se (the USA is so large), just noting that things I have read and what my brother has too, seem to show no country has a fantastic system.
230

Franck,

29/02/2008 11:16:22
#209 Emma's dad. - well said, as a disabled person she deserves the rights ov everyone else i e to get the bus - and when the space is full - like others she can wait for thr next one.
231

Shaz,

edinburgh 29/02/2008 11:44:42
To 209... The cost to call out a taxi is 60p. I travel alot on buses with a buggy, I can not get a driving licence because of epilepsy. I have folded up my buggy for wheel chair users, or even tho I was at the stop 1st, I'd let a wheel chair on before going on myself with the buggy, and have done on more than one occasion, and i'd wait for the next bus, or if someone who was sitting there kindly gave up their seat at the space for wheel chairs/buggys, i'd make sure i thanked them. Please don't think all mothers with buggys are ignorant. I wasn't having a go, just stating facts from disabled relatives of mine. All the best.
232

,

29/02/2008 23:22:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
233

Fiona and Emma's Friend,

Edinburgh 04/03/2008 22:15:58
What a heartless lot you are.Fiona is a hardworking young single parent.She has endured alot with Emma and goes the extra mile for Emma all the time - more than what can be said for the bus driver.Why should she come of her soapbox - she has a valid point and at this stage of Emma's life who else can speak for her but her mum - Fiona .Wheelchair spaces are for wheelchairs.If an elderly/pregnant person gets on a bus do you not give up your seat and give it to them - gone are these days - but manners have all but gone.All I can say is give Fiona and Emma a break she is only doing what should be done by protecting and speaking for her daughter.Go for it Fiona and take it all the way.I only hope it never happens to them to have a disabled daughter.Its the old story you never know something until it happens to you.

 

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