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Monday, 2nd November 2009 Change Date Latest Issue

Courts 'making a mockery' of under-age booze sales battle

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Published Date: 31 October 2008
By ADAM MORRIS
LICENSING committee members in Edinburgh today hit out at the judicial system for making a "mockery" of some of their decisions to punish people for selling alcohol to under 18s.
New figures today revealed double the number of people are found not guilty than are convicted, even though police and council officials spend significant time building solid cases. Figures show that of nine individuals facing charges, six were acqui
tted and only three found guilty.

The revelations come at a time when under-age drinking is high on the agenda, with some senior figures in Holyrood wanting to raise the age of purchase to 21.

But the local authority feels "undermined" by the courts, given that the licensing board has adopted a tough stance on selling alcohol to youngsters.

Councillor Alastair Paisley, a long-standing member of the licensing committee, was fuming at the statistics. "It makes a mockery of the licensing board's decisions and undermines our role," said the Conservative member.

"I'm surprised by this because we don't take action without evidence. We've got a tough approach on this, but we are making decisions and the courts are not supporting us."

Figures for the previous year show a similar ratio of acquittals to convictions. In East Lothian, there were no proceedings brought last year and in West Lothian, one person was convicted. In Midlothian, three were convicted and one person cleared.

Lothian and Borders Police regularly stage "test purchasing" initiatives, which see 16-year-olds attempt to dupe shopkeepers into selling them alcohol without asking them for identification.

If licence holders are found to have supplied youngsters, the licensing board always revokes their right to sell alcohol for a number of months.

The city's licensing leader, Councillor Marjorie Thomas, said: "I find it more frustrating than anything else. The courts have their own methods."

A Crown Office spokesperson said: "Any report received by the Procurator Fiscal relating to the sale of alcohol to an individual aged under 18 is given careful consideration before a decision is made on whether or not to take criminal proceedings. Sentencing is a matter for the courts."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 31 October 2008 10:47 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 12:25:39
Stop trying to turn this country into a police state. The "rod of iron" approach to alcohol laws has had only negative consequences. Nothing good has come out of it. Over-zealous enforcement of pub ages limits gave us kids drinking in parks. They sucessfully swapped a harmless minor breach of the law for a serious problem involving kids that are even younger. Over-zealous enforcement of off-licence age limits will no doubt give us break-ins and muggings where the target is alcoholic drink.

The ONLY way to handle this is to back off with the enforcement and start educating people. When will the idiots in power ever learn their lessons?
2

alex paterson,

edinburgh 31/10/2008 12:28:07
Raise the age to 25 and people like us will have to buy lots more to compensate,oh yes i like that.
3

,

31/10/2008 12:30:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 12:41:29
#3:

"Are you seriously saying that they are wrong to demand laws are enforced?"

In a way, yes. Draconian enforcement does not work. Law making and enforcement is a complex balancing act. Get it wrong and you run the risk of creating side effects which are much worse. There is more to it than "they shall obey". Laws need to be enforced intelligently and with due consideration to the circumstances.

"...kids would have a far more limited supply of alcohol."

...so they would start breaking into houses to steal it or attacking people on the way home from the shops in order to get their handds on it.

Can you really not see that?

Backing off is the ONLY way to go now---although they have created such an intricate web of iron that even doing that will be difficult to do now, without sending out the wrong messages. But it is something they MUST do.
5

Ecto,

31/10/2008 12:45:50
Too many licences issued to to many outlets who are not professional and responsible retailers and the cooncil just keep raking in the cash. Tell me who has not bought booze out the chippy after 10pm? Why does the chippy need to sell booze in the first place?
6

,

31/10/2008 12:47:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Incandescent,

31/10/2008 13:11:23
#4 #6 - Fight! Fight! Fight! :-)
8

mobocaster,

Aberdeen 31/10/2008 13:12:44

More likely some chancers would take the opportunity to start retailing booze out of back doors or vans - With no regulation whatsoever. Look at the joke that is the Irish firework ban.

Enforce the laws yes but use a bit of common sense about it.
9

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 13:37:46
#6:

"How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?!"

OK, here goes.

Back in the late 70s, when a 16-year-old started going out to work, it was the first step on the road to becoming an adult. As a result, they wanted (and had the money) to do things that adults did. They could buy themselves a moped, own, or be the tenant of a house or flat, get married and join the armed forces. It automatically followed that they would want to go down the pub for a few hours on friday or saturday night to socialise with their mates.

In those days, there were no laws that demanded that people were asked to provide approved ID and as such, the publicans were free to make their own judgement call and use their discretion. In reality this meant that provided you were well behaved, you would get served in the pub and be allowed to drink there. The moment you started mis-behaving and/or annoying others, you were out---probably never to return again for some time.

This had several benefits, including:-
1. Kids grew up with a bit of respect for themselves
2. The concept of "If you can't handle it, don't drink it" was paramount
3. The kids were in a safe environment
4. There was no chance of contact with younger kids whilst they were drinking.

Additionally, if you had your head screwed on properly, you behaved yourself on the way home from the pub and went straight home. It was always a concern, being stopped by the police and having to explain where you had got your drink from, because likely as not, that would have had an impact on all of your mates as well.

In the early 90s, some politically correct do-gooders noticed that the odd spot of trouble was being caused by "under-age" drinkers. The culprits were actually the bam-pots who wouldn't have been allowed in pubs to begin with and actually got their drink from off-licences. But however, in true-to-form sledgehammer style, they started cracking down on under-age drinking in pubs---in other words, hitting thos
10

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 13:38:30
(cont)
in other words, hitting those who were actually behaving themselves, albeit if they were in minor breach of the law.

What this did was to start driving the under-18s out of pubs and into the company of the bam-pots who wasted no time whatsoever in letting them know how to get their hands on booze and where to drink it. With the protective environment of the pub removed, plus the obligation to behave themselves, the kids started running riot. They also came into contact with even younger kids who, die to their immaturity, were only to happy to supply them with booze, thereby compounding the problem.

As you can see by reading this, it is clear that the minor problem of a few kids having a drink in a pub was turned into the far more serious one of even younger kids drinking unsupervised. Hopefully you can see the reason why.

Now, I'm not saying for certain that further tightening up of laws is definately going to result in break-ins and muggings, but given recent historical data, it is certain that there WILL be a side-effect and in all probability it will be a lot worse than the initial issue being addressed. Burglaries and muggins are just an example of what might happen in this direction.

As a general principle, when you "clamp down" on something or other, you invariably create a side effect. If you then clamp down on those side effects, you create more side effects... ad nausium, until you end up living in a police state like China or North Korea.

Rigid enforcement does not work. Education and a sense of responsibility DOES. And that's what we should be aiming at.
11

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 13:45:58
...and mobocaster has just given a perfect example of what else might be a consequence of "clamping down".
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 14:17:56


GOOD ON THE COURTS!

It is certainaly needed, to even the ballance of idiots wanting our young,.....,'Hung drawn and Quartered' for minor offences, and shame on the Muppet's that are obsessed in doing so.
13

,

31/10/2008 14:22:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 14:31:48



Petrol Head, for leading the Peoples Army!

LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION!

I have already set-up the "Booze" Farm, all 18year olds more than welcome to, 'free booze'!

LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION!


15

,

31/10/2008 14:54:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Teofilio Cubillas,

31/10/2008 15:23:20
#9

Not a bad theory, and, as a 16-year-old in the late 70's, I recognise much of what you say, although as one who got done by two plain-clothes cops for peacefully supping a half pint of lager in Chick Murray's (fined £5 at EDC) I don't think the system was quite as liberal as you make out. Obviously, the issue is a bit more complex than you make out - I would personally point to the cynical targetting of teenagers by the drinks industry over the past 25 years - the development of alcoholic beverages that specifically appeal to less developed taste-buds and who previously shunned alcohol as a result. Interestingly, you talk about 16-year-olds in the 70's going to work. That is also a key social change over the past 30 years. How many 16 year olds hold down jobs nowadays? Most are either still at school, in some form of further education or wasting on the dole.
17

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 15:52:08
Foo:

"This is 2009 (almost) and the world has moved on from those days."

And how! We are now all treated like idiots for a start and that is probably the root of the problem... No this, No that, Ban this, Ban that, You must do this, You must do that, Do it this way, Do it that way.

We have made terrific advances in engineering and technology in the last 40 years. In almost every other aspect, we have been going backwards.

I agree that just implimenting "my" principles nowadays would result in catastrophic failure. Far too much damage has been done to attempt to reverse it overnight. It needs to be done step-by-step and it will take time. Continuing to go down this "Make a law and enforce it with a rod of iron" principle will turn this country into a totalitarian police state in 50 years time.

We need to do a 'U' turn now and start working back towards principles that are known to have worked and make them work again.
18

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 15:56:37
#17:

You are quite right about the drinks industry (alcopops). Even though I am not in favour bans in general, I would like to see these things made more difficult to get hold of. Something else I would like to see the back of are "shooters" as well.

I believe we can get this situation under control but it will take time and patience. The way they are going at the moment is just going to make matters worse... a lot worse.
19

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 31/10/2008 16:02:09
#16::

"Stand up and grow a set."

If he did that, he'd have a beard. Why would anyone want to do that?
20

Glenda,

blah 31/10/2008 20:41:55
As usual, we can all rely on Fuel Head to get on his high horse when the subject of dealing with Scotland's abuse of booze and fags arises.
21

The Ayrshire Bard,

31/10/2008 20:42:18
Yes, the world has moved on in the past 40 years, but it has not moved onwards and upwards. It has moved into a sad period when young people are encouraged to do whatever they like without responsibility. Have a look at the true situation. Underage drinking leads to underage age sex which leads to underage single mothers and feckless underage fathers who simply cut loose and move on to the next half-cut young teenage lass who has lost whatever inhibitions she might have had because she is befuddled with booze. Mock the situation if you will, but the cost of letting underage teenagers carry on drinking is already the cause of much of the social breakdown that has befallen the country.
22

sawney hasbeen,

Over there 01/11/2008 06:53:41
So the courts weigh the presented evidence and find the case not proven.....
'New figures today revealed double the number of people are found not guilty than are convicted, even though police and council officials spend significant time building solid cases.'
Don't look too solid to me! I wonder how many test purchases are done with children who look older or who have fake ID?

 

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