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Bigger tram line back on track



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Published Date: 13 March 2008
A FRESH bid has been launched to secure funding for a multi-million expansion of the city's tram scheme.
Tram firm TIE, which is already building the Newhaven to airport 1a line, has launched a project team to investigate ways of paying for the spur from Roseburn to Granton, and say they are "optimistic" it will go ahead.

The 1b link was originally put on hold when the tram scheme was scaled back in 2006.

However, TIE has secured a fixed price of £87 million to build the line – if it can commit to the project before next spring. TIE now faces a race against time to get funding in place.

The £543m already in place to build 1a includes £96m in "contingency" funding – but it is thought only around half of this will be left to put towards the spur.

Among the options being considered for any funding gap are selling off council assets, pressing for more developer contributions and borrowing from either public or private sources.

Opposition politicians today said they would be wary of selling off council assets to fund line 1b, but council and tram chiefs said they were committed to finding a way of making the project happen.

Willie Gallagher, executive chairman of TIE, said: "We plan to be back in front of the councillors around September with our view on the likely funding that is left from the £543m available.

"If it is, say, around £37m that needs to be raised, then you've got to remember that is a small percentage in the context of a £543m project.

"We have put a project team together to look at the funding options for 1b, such as realising developer contributions.

"Obviously the focus is on line 1a just now, but we are optimistic that we will be able to get a package in place for 1b, which does offer fantastic gains not just for the waterfront, but also Granton."

It is hoped phase 1b would be able to open by the end of 2012 – a year-and-a-half after the rest of the first line is completed – if a decision to proceed with the work is taken by city leaders this year.

Councillor Mark McInnes, the city's Tory transport spokesman, said: "We would be wary of any attempts to sell off the family silver to try to pay for 1b.

"It is vital that we get value for money, whatever they are considering. Selling council assets or going for any sort of leasing arrangement may not present the best option.

"Increased developer contributions are the obvious attractive way of filling any funding gap, particularly given the benefits that this line will bring them."

The Roseburn to Granton spur has been a controversial part of the proposed tram network, not least because it would run along the Roseburn Urban Wildlife Corridor.

Councillor Phil Wheeler, the city's transport leader, said: "We are still absolutely committed to finding a funding solution to ensure line 1b of the tram route is built as quickly and as cost-effectively as possible."

www.tramsforedinburgh.com


The full article contains 521 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

mrmoneypenny,

13/03/2008 12:06:20
"If it is, say, around £37m that needs to be raised, then you've got to remember that is a small percentage in the context of a £543m project.

MMmm, but the fact the cost of the whole project is scandelous, has nothing to do with it!

And now TIE who are supposedly just 'arms length of the council ' think they are now the council and can sell of parts of the city...Outageous.
2

mrmoneypenny,

13/03/2008 12:06:45
'r'
3

David Harrington,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:16:11
So where are the people who complained about the costs going up to £1 billion now? Perhaps they would like to apologise for their unfounded criticism of the project. Where is the controversy about using the Roseburn corridor - this used to be a *railway* and so is reverting back to that use - pedestrians and cyclists will still be accommodated.
4

Rofos,

Sheffield 13/03/2008 12:21:25
TIE are getting in front of themselves now, aren't they. Bigger and better things to come from this lot and you can bet your last council tax penny that the free loaders 'in charge' will just say to them. "here's a barrel load of dosh, take as much as you like and when you want some more just come back for another barrel load - it's not actually ours, but there's lots of it so feel free to dip in" because let's face it, that's what's happened to-date.
5

Aye Right...,

13/03/2008 12:25:40
This will give the schemeys from Granton a hi-speed subsidised getaway after carrying out a spot of GBH or breaking and entering in Murrayfield. It's the only reason I can think of for having a tram link to Granton...
6

Bob 2,

13/03/2008 12:30:47
TIE seem to be getting creative with there finances.

And a wee bit of "Black Mail", they need to get the additional money by next spring.

Where has the £43million came from, it wasn't that long ago that they only had a few million from developers etc.

How come they've mananged to get a FIXED price for 1b but not a fixed price for the main line.

And what happens if they sign up for 1b and then find out that 1a costs £543m, that leaves £87m to find.

£500m was the price of 1a, they wont go over budget, now they have a pot of £543m

The Edinburgh Council taxpayer wasn't going to contribute financially, but yet as No1 points out they are being allowed to sell off the family silver to fund it.
Doesn't these ASSESTs belong to the Edinburgh Taxpayer?

We will wait and see what the final bill is for the TRAMS.

The Jury is out, we will have to wait for the verdict, due 2011/12.
7

Randan,

13/03/2008 12:32:20
Doomed. Edinburgh is doomed.
8

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:33:40
#3 - The fantasists at TIE conveniently exclude massive amounts of costs in their business plan such as that the tram line will be loss making for years and will require subsidy (where do you think that will come from...?) together with the negative economic effect of the tram on huge areas of Edinburgh, both in construction and in operation as bus services are cut. As a business plan it is a joke.
9

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

13/03/2008 12:42:07
8. Be that as it may but you conviently make things up .
10

Bob 2,

13/03/2008 12:44:37
the truth is out there, but will we ever know the full cost?
11

Bob 2,

13/03/2008 12:47:04
TIE are good with finances, remember the TRAM scheme had to be cut back, because someone forgot to add inflation costs to the bid.
12

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

13/03/2008 12:50:13
If you arrange the letters in TIE and TRAM and disregard some and add a few others you get BLATANT SCAM , and also , strangely FISHWIVES CAUSEWAY DOG PRISON CHAOS .
13

11,

Tranent 13/03/2008 13:04:07
#5 - It'd have to be an exceedingly high-speed, and considerably longer distance subsidised getaway for the Granton schemies to evade their GBH crimes, when you consider that GBH is an English crime.
14

Scallywag,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:06:11
Get the thing built and complete the whole loop through Granton to Leith. It is going ahead so we may as well do the best we can as opposed to a half a***d effort.
15

,

13/03/2008 13:07:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

Mr Fedup,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:12:56
Total waste of my money - has any of these muppets ever came out to the southside of Edinburgh and tried to get a bus to Leith or the town , Lasswade Road , 1 bus a No. 31 , try and get on that in the morning to go to work , stick your trams where the sun don't shine , total waste of money.
17

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:25:12
It would be helpful to have some concrete solutions from TIE as to how the Council is to meet its existing contribution of £45m to Phase 1a, before we start talking about raising further funds for Phase 1b?
18

Destroy the Planet,

13/03/2008 13:26:17
Definite direct action against TIE, The Council, Contractors if this goes ahead.
19

fresian,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:43:25
#16 Mr Fed up, the reason bus services are so poor in the south of the city is that there are insufficient numbers of scheemies there to warrant such things as buses.
20

Stone of Destiny,

South Korea 13/03/2008 14:15:55
I really hope this route goes ahead & I believe it would be the Jewel in the crown of the tram network, having commuted by bike. I saw the original plans and hope they stick to the cycle/walk path. There should also be a lot less disruption as it's not on a road.
For those Luddites against the tram route, you should visit S Korea where they have such a 'can do, will do culture' (if only Scots had such a positive attitude) and are creating excellent public transport systems. Yes it costs money, but what doesn't.
Having taught many foreign students in Edinburgh, who were continuously late to class because of an unreliable broken down buses, you shouldn't be so proud of the bus service when you know what others think of it. An alternative public transport is needed and the tram (& possibly southern rail loop)is the best one we have at the moment.
21

Dragonlord,

13/03/2008 14:39:32
With the discovery of ancient remains at the tram depot, The delays will cause a massive over run on their budget. No way will they get anymore cash.
22

heatherp,

happy Glen 13/03/2008 14:46:49
In an ideal world trams are fantastic, but edinburgh has a good bus system. We need more cycle lanes and to remove the traffic. Nothing in the plans show that this will reduce congestion.
Millions and millions to be spent on something that looks good, whereas the council plan the sale of Meadowbank land and reduce sports facilities at this site all for the sake of a few million and a bit of planning. No joined up thinking.
23

AB_R,

13/03/2008 14:54:19
There has been not one bit of tram line laid yet, so this is a bit optimistic. Have the trams been delivered for the £50 Million? Have all of the utilities been moved for the £50 Million?

There is already a bit of "robbing Peter to pay Paul" with this project, with the likes of £200K going from the Schools budget (The fee paid for building the new Gorgie High School).

Also they have managed to persuade the council that streets where the utilties have been moved the "Earthing" required to make the flats safe has to be paid by the houseowners.

There will be other projects that will be paying for some of the work that should have came out of the tram line budget.
24

jdships,

13/03/2008 14:56:14
3 David Harrington,

The Americans say "Remember the Alamo"
The Scots say " Remember Holyrood"
You must really be niave to think that is that with cost of trams.
We heard the say "spin" with the parliament building and look how that esculated !!

20 Stone of Destiny
For those Luddites against the tram route, you should visit S Korea where they have such a 'can do, will do culture' (if only Scots had such a positive attitude) and are creating excellent public transport systems. Yes it costs money, but what doesn't.
Having taught many foreign students in Edinburgh, who were continuously late to class because of an unreliable broken down buses, you shouldn't be so proud of the bus service when you know what others think of it. An alternative public transport is needed and the tram (& possibly southern rail loop)is the best one we have at the moment.

Try visiting seven European cities with tram services , as I have on fact finding visits, and you would know not one of these have a topography similar to Edinburgh's neither are the systems installed similar to ours.
I take it most of your students will be travelling from their homes in Leith to their college in the west of Edinburgh
This system will serve 6/8% of the citizens of Edinburgh - " At worst it will be a ge=rat tourist attraction " private quote from Lib/SNP Councillor

£100m here we come !
25

AB_R,

13/03/2008 14:57:05
#22, I have to disagree, the TIE business plan does show a reduction in congestion. A whole 1% reduction, this may have to be re-evaluated if cars are stopped from going through Shandwick Place.
26

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

13/03/2008 15:20:28
Frankly I am so bored i am close to tears every time this subect comes up.

Everything that is possible to say - both for and against - has already been said at least 50 times.

Just accept it and get on with it.
27

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 15:40:56
#26 Mario, if you are so bored with this topic why have posted at least 3 comments today?

#3 David Harrington

"where are the people who complained about the costs going up to £1 billion"

Basically David, this project has just started - it is bound to go wrong and personally I hope it grinds to a halt about halfway through and that the Scottish Executive sticks to its promise not to give these crazy beggars a brass farthing more.

I, for one, expect the overall cost to double (or at least increase hugely).

Labour will rue the day that they, in alliance with the Tories, Greens and the Lib Dems pushed this project through.
28

TRAM MAN,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 15:57:03
#20

Hit the nail on the head. If the "don't spend public money on public services" brigade had their way we'd still have walls round the old town and a loch at the bottom on the castle.
29

Free Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 16:00:36
Great news!! Let's have more of this. #20 and 29 spot-on.
30

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

13/03/2008 16:15:51
27, 28 Fair point. I'll shutup. Carry on . Ad naseum.
31

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

13/03/2008 16:16:21
BUt i am in favour !
32

wolfette,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 16:45:54
we don't need the tramline they're already building, so why should we give them even MORE money to build another line we don't need?

We should have spent the money on the rail-link from the airport to Haymarket and Waverley.

33

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

13/03/2008 16:57:09
#24 jdships,

Regarding your comments on trams in European cities, I work in an area where many of our staff and students are from the continent and many come from towns served by trams. Now, most of these folk tell me that our bus service is very good/excellent and that it is both better and more reliable than tram services at home (this particularly seems to be the view of most of our German students/staff members).

#29 Tram Man

Do you really believe that £500 million is good value for money for 1 route only? At that, that is only the estimated figure (I believe that the final bill will be significantly higher). As for the 'b' route, surely we should at least wait until 'a' is complete and a better idea of 'value' (or otherwise) has been arrived at.

#32 Mario, that's now at least 5 comments. I guess you are a bit like me, in that we just can't resist?

Cheers,

Peter
34

AB_R,

13/03/2008 17:35:56
The Luddites were a social movement of British textile artisans in the early nineteenth century who protested — often by destroying mechanized looms - against the changes produced by the Industrial Revolution, which they felt threatened their livelihood.

Yep - Must be about the same time that trams were initially being introduced in Edinburgh.
35

Julian,

EDINBURGH 13/03/2008 17:44:08
Peter-Very Disappointed,

"1 route only"

It's a nice catchphrase to put down the trams but it means nothing. If it were 5 routes that ran for 1 mile each would that make it less of a waste of money than the one 12 mile route they are building?

And if you are hoping that the scheme grinds to a halt half way through, that makes you worse than the people you accuse of wasting money. Just so you can turn round and say "I told you so", £250m of taxpayers money will be down the drain.
36

Julian,

EDINBURGH 13/03/2008 17:47:47
Tram Man # 29,

Pity they hadn't kept the walls around the old town. Was in York recently where they have kept them and it enhances the whole city.
37

Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 18:46:40
#36 & #37

Yes Julian, I'm a really bad guy.

Like a dickens of a lot of other people in Edinburgh I resent the fact the no referendum (of its citizens) was held on approving this project - £500 million is a lot of money and it is likely to be a lot more.

I do feel that I will be able to smuggly say "I told you so", but then so will a lot of others. However, if I am wrong I'll be happy to admit that. I repeat, I don't think this project will be completed within budget and it will bankrupt the Town.

By the way, there are still some bits of the old city wall to be seen, one section is around the side of George Heriots School and another is thought to be just off the bottom of the pleasance. Built to keep out the English after the Battle of Flodden, maybe we should build another one to keep out TIE?

Cheers,

Peter
38

jdships,

13/03/2008 19:29:18
34 Peter - very disappointed/concerned,

Good post
Your comments are exactly in line ( apologies for the unintended pun) with my findings - there is very little wrong with our present bus service .

36 Julian,

" 1 route only "
Surely spending "X" millions on a 12 mile route which will serve only 6/8% of the citizens of Edinburgh can't be value for money ?

Perhaps you are one of the " At least it will be a great tourist attraction" brigade !!!!!
39

Think Tank,

13/03/2008 20:54:37

#8 GrahamH.

Your post demonstrates once more the lack of research on the part of the anti-tram brigade. I suggest you read the business plan (available on tramsforedinburgh.co.uk) and come back for an adult debate.

Keep the game of making up things to support your argument for the school yard.

And once more for the posters variously posting:

"the buses are fine as they are"
"every other tram system in the world may be a success but Edinburgh is different..."

1. Use a bit of brain substance to consider the effect of population growth. We've reached bus saturation point- queues of buses show the need for rapid arterial route transit.

2. It really is very quaint that you think your "Edinburgh's different..." arguments are in anyway original. They were heard in Nottingham, Dublin, Sheffield and across the globe. Yet within months of each of these tram schemes openining public opinion shifts massively in favour and the public are clammering for line extensions- getting in early (at a cheaper price for 1b) therefore makes perfect sense. And don't forget that a lot of the groundwork for Line 3 is already complete.

I look forward to hearing those requests for expansion on this site in the near future. The whingers are absolutely conforming to type.

40

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

13/03/2008 21:03:43
40 well said sir but i dont know why you are even entertaining these luddite backward halfwits.

41

jdships,

13/03/2008 21:38:32
40 Think Tank

Appreciate you are entitled to your opinion and have a right to express it but unfortunately you are defending the indefensible.
As I have said before have visited , officially, seven European cities with a tram system plus five in UK and Ireland.
Not one system bears a resemblance to that being built here : also the scheme does not fit in with the topography of Edinburgh.
Remember "X" millions being spent to provide a system that will serve 6/8% of the citizens of Edinburgh - Wow! What a return on capital investment Makes "Holyrood" look a bargain !!!!!!!

"The whingers are absolutely conforming to type."
Surely if you are a democrat you accept that other people have opinions which they are entitled to express
Then again you may not believe in democracy !
42

jdships,

13/03/2008 21:42:21
41 The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

You might like to read my post at 42.
You obviously don't believe in democracy either !
Perhaps you are a member of the " At worst it will make a great tourist attraction" club
43

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 00:08:02
#40 You again show the lack of research common in tram supporters. Every single tram system in the UK has been an economic FAILURE.
44

,

14/03/2008 00:39:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

Mr Fuzzy,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 01:14:32
#34
I've talked to foreign students taking the bus to and from university. They can't understand why the buses can't have single timetable that is the same through the entire week, instead of being slightly different by 5 or 10 minutes during the weekends. Nor do they understand why some buses do part routes (34 to Longstone, 45 to Firrhill) rather than doing the entire route.
46

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 14/03/2008 01:21:30
now lets see what can we sell to raise some more tram money
47

Bob 2,

14/03/2008 07:02:29
TIE seem to be getting creative with there finances.

And a wee bit of "Black Mail", they need to get the additional money by next spring.

Where has the £43million came from, it wasn't that long ago that they only had a few million from developers etc.

How come they've mananged to get a FIXED price for 1b but not a fixed price for the main line.

AN ANYONE THROW SOME LIGHT ON THIS FIXED PRICE THING?

And what happens if they sign up for 1b and then find out that 1a costs £543m, that leaves £87m to find.

£500m was the price of 1a, they wont go over budget, now they have a pot of £543m

The Edinburgh Council taxpayer wasn't going to contribute financially, but yet as No1 points out they are being allowed to sell off the family silver to fund it.
Doesn't these ASSESTs belong to the Edinburgh Taxpayer?

We will wait and see what the final bill is for the TRAMS.

The Jury is out, we will have to wait for the verdict, due 2011/12.
48

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

14/03/2008 11:59:05
jdships - you are right , I dont believe in democracy.

The majority do not know best. Thats why the majority of people are idiots.

You elect your leaders to make decisions on your behalf. They then make those decisions. Some of them may have the farsight to make decisions which arent popular and dont cowtow to the lowest common denominator , eg democracy.

You are naive if you think that the workings of business or Politics are done in anything approaching democratic means.
49

eric,

Lothian 17/03/2008 12:58:58
If it was a Subway even better.
50

Axelfols,

17/03/2008 19:27:03
Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies......
51

Axelfols,

17/03/2008 19:30:05
Excrement news!! I'm all for it!!

 

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